SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[Deevers]

7 minutes ago, Victorian said:

So it's looking like as I predicted.    It will be scuppered in the lower leagues by clubs who :

 

1.    Cannot afford to play matches next season.

2.    Will most likely be out of business in the future.

 

Essentially we're going to be dragged down by clubs on death row.    On the premise of a fantasy that they'll even be here in a year's time.

 

Legal action probably doesn't faze these ***** because they're virtually extinct anyway.    They have nothing to lose.

The bigger clubs do though. I wonder whether this could force a break away by these clubs. I can’t see many in the two top  leagues allowing their financial well being to be dictated  by Stenhousemuir or Brechin or the likes. It’s probably time for real change and this could well be the catalyst.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Deevers

[Nookie Bear]

4 minutes ago, Derek From Stenhouse said:

SPFL are setting this up to fail.. However using it as a basis they will come in and save the day by tweeking it slightly to look like the saviours. 

 

Cove will still have their championship flag to fly even if the league is called championship level 2.

 

Hearts should hoist a flag with unfairly removed from the league. 

 

If teams do go into administration will they still get 15 points deducted? 

 

Nobody will be deducted points at this time because of this force majeure clause that covers exceptional circumstances.

 

I suppose the question is when does that end? When the new season starts or when fans can attend as usual?

 

Clubs in admin still face the difficulties associated with being in admin of course, so it's still a punishment.

[David McCaig]

Just now, Nookie Bear said:

 

Nobody will be deducted points at this time because of this force majeure clause that covers exceptional circumstances.

 

I suppose the question is when does that end? When the new season starts or when fans can attend as usual?

 

Clubs in admin still face the difficulties associated with being in admin of course, so it's still a punishment.

I would assume the exceptional circumstances cease on June 10 when football can resume.

 

 

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Deevers said:

The bigger clubs do though. I wonder whether this could force a break away by these clubs. I can’t see many in the two top  leagues allowing their financial well being to by Stenhousemuir or Brechin or the likes. It’s probably time for real change and this could well be the catalyst.

 

A breakaway is interesting.    Basically a league of those who simply need to break away from the death row clubs who have no interest in the concept of protecting as much of the game as can be saved.     Those who can play in order to tide them over while the death row clubs play at being relevant.

 

God forbid that we took a leading role in it.    It would be ridiculed as all about saving us again.

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

I would assume the exceptional circumstances cease on June 10 when football can resume.

 

 

 

I hope that is made clear to all and sundry.

 

Maybe it's another question for our £400k Man.

 

[hughesie27]

4 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

I would assume the exceptional circumstances cease on June 10 when football can resume.

 

 

No. We operate in Scotland not England.

[JamboBoy]

So once again potentially clubs who have little or no skin in the game are going to dictate the future of the whole of Scottish football. If this is not a catalyst for making really big changes by perhaps a break away of the true  and real full time professional clubs then what would be? 
 

We cannot tolerate a situation where many, many clubs whose average attendance is probably below the number of people we have in some of our hospitality venues on match day think they can rule the roost. It is absolutely ridiculous and suicidal in some ways to allow this to happen.
 

Who knows maybe miracles will happen and they sign up but I am not holding my breath either!

Edited May 27, 2020 by JamboBoy

[Ethan Hunt]

The last ten pages have reaffirmed all I already knew about the media/social media and how easily they can influence people. When AB’s proposal was first published a few hours ago there was optimism on here that it was a good proposal, mapping the way forward for all clubs, and it had a good chance of being agreed. A few ‘unnamed source’ articles, and supporters rants on social media later and it’s all doom and gloom.

 

The media/social media is just noise, it’s best ignored. Some of it is deliberately created to deflect attention, dampen optimism, and worse designed to influence people into making the decisions which fit the medias agenda. If we believe everything in the media we’d still believe there is a red London bus on the moon FFS! Ignore the noise.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ethan Hunt

[Beast Boy]

As much as I’d like to see common sense break out and clubs to vote to save the game, as this resolution would allow, a pretty big part of me wants them to vote it down, and then come cap in hand looking for aid and assistance, only to be told to “**** off and look after yourself, as you have done throughout this whole crisis.”

... then present them with the bill for our compensation.

[Beast Boy]

4 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

The last ten pages have reaffirmed all I already knew about the media/social media and how easily they can influence people. When AB’s proposal was first published a few hours ago there was optimism on here that it was a good proposal, mapping the way forward for all clubs, and it had a good chance of being agreed. A few ‘unnamed source’ articles, and supporters rants on social media later and it’s all doom and gloom.

 

The media/social media is just noise, it’s best ignored. Some of it is deliberately created to deflect attention, dampen optimism, and worse designed to influence people into making the decisions which fit the medias agenda. If we believe everything in the media we’d still believe there is a red London bus on the moon FFS! Ignore the noise.

I agree to an extent. I think if it’s 75% required, then it’s almost certain to pass.

[jamboinglasgow]

4 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

As much as I’d like to see common sense break out and clubs to vote to save the game, as this resolution would allow, a pretty big part of me wants them to vote it down, and then come cap in hand looking for aid and assistance, only to be told to “**** off and look after yourself, as you have done throughout this whole crisis.”

... then present them with the bill for our compensation.

 

Reminds me of Rorschach's speech from Watchmen

 

 

[The Natural Order]

3 minutes ago, JamboBoy said:

So once again potentially clubs who have little or no skin in the game are going to dictate the future of the whole of Scottish football. If this is not a catalyst for making really big changes by perhaps a break away of the true  and real full time professional clubs then what would be? 
 

We cannot tolerate a situation where many, many clubs whose average attendance is probably below the number of people we have in some of our hospitality venues on match day think they can rule the roost. It is absolutely ridiculous and suicidal in some ways to allow this to happen.
 

Who knows maybe miracles will happen and they sign up but I am not holding my breath either!

This is the big problem in Scottish Football and I can only see one way it will change. This plan fails and we accept our place in the Championship (whatever that is!) and take the hit. We then start legal action that will kill a lot, if not all, those clubs off. The rest have to come back to us to create a league structure from whatever is left. In short dead clubs can't vote.

[S Form]

7 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

The last ten pages have reaffirmed all I already knew about the media/social media and how easily they can influence people. When AB’s proposal was first published a few hours ago there was optimism on here that it was a good proposal, mapping the way forward for all clubs, and it had a good chance of being agreed. A few ‘unnamed source’ articles, and supporters rants on social media later and it’s all doom and gloom.

 

The media/social media is just noise, it’s best ignored. Some of it is deliberately created to deflect attention, dampen optimism, and worse designed to influence people into making the decisions which fit the medias agenda. If we believe everything in the media we’d still believe there is a red London bus on the moon FFS! Ignore the noise.

This is true but social media does have some influence. I guess the next move is up to the SPFL board. They will either endorse Ann’s paper or amend it before putting it to a vote. I guess they could come up with their own proposal but that would involve them getting off their arses.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

so when diddy championship clubs like Dunfermline ditch this and refuse to complete fixtures behind closed doors in August/Sept/Oct they'll be quite happy to concede all their games 3-0?? This is a very flexible approach and given the options open to all clubs is far from certain to fail. The 400,000 pound question is why haven't the likes of Doncaster and McClennan come up with something like  this.

[EH23-Jambo]

 

[milky_26]

10 minutes ago, jamboinglasgow said:

 

Reminds me of Rorschach's speech from Watchmen

 

 

to paraphrase

 

Ann's Journal.  May 27th, 2020:

 

Football carcass in alley this morning, tire tread on burst seam.  The SPFL is afraid of me.  I have seen it's true face. The stadiums are extended gutters and the gutters are full of tears and snotters and when the drains finally scab over, all the vermin will drown.  The accumulated filth of all their self interest and sniping will foam up about their waists and all the chairmen and board members will look up and shout "Save us!"...

 

...and I'll look down, and whisper "no."

 

They had a choice, all of them.  They could have followed in the footsteps of good people like myself, or Scott Gardner.  Decent people, who believed in a day's work for a day's pay.  Instead the followed the droppings of lechers and reprobates and didn't realize that the trail led over a precipice until it was too late.  Don't tell me they didn't have a choice.

 

Now the whole SPFL stands on the brink, staring down into bloody hell, all those no voters and intellectuals and smooth-talkers... and all of a sudden, nobody can think of anything to say.

[Hearts1975]

47 minutes ago, Billybuffjaw said:

Away and take a Tom Kite with your Hibby pish.

There is no “dignity” in accepting a flawed decision which damages our club and where there are other decisions that could be made and certainly would not nail us to the cross for something that isn’t our own doing.

 

If someone is trying to urinate all over you, you don’t lie down and act like you want your belly tickled. You get up and you fight back. 

 

There aint any dignity with getting pissed upon and accepting it!

[David McCaig]

27 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

No. We operate in Scotland not England.

The suspension on football lifts on June 10 when clubs can return to training.

[Last Laff]

21 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

The last ten pages have reaffirmed all I already knew about the media/social media and how easily they can influence people. When AB’s proposal was first published a few hours ago there was optimism on here that it was a good proposal, mapping the way forward for all clubs, and it had a good chance of being agreed. A few ‘unnamed source’ articles, and supporters rants on social media later and it’s all doom and gloom.

 

The media/social media is just noise, it’s best ignored. Some of it is deliberately created to deflect attention, dampen optimism, and worse designed to influence people into making the decisions which fit the medias agenda. If we believe everything in the media we’d still believe there is a red London bus on the moon FFS! Ignore the noise.

Hold on a minute! You’re trying to say there isn’t a red London bus on the moon?  

[Ethan Hunt]

3 minutes ago, S Form said:

This is true but social media does have some influence. I guess the next move is up to the SPFL board. They will either endorse Ann’s paper or amend it before putting it to a vote. I guess they could come up with their own proposal but that would involve them getting off their arses.

If club Chairmen are prepared to put the existence of their club on the line because of arsehole fans shouting hate on social media then hell mend them. Football clubs are businesses. They need to do what is best for that business to survive. If not wanting to upset a few hundred social media arseholes negatively influences them, well, they’ll deserve their ultimate outcome.

[husref musemic]

39 minutes ago, Whatever said:

Not disagreeing.

 

Merely suggesting how I think they’ll view us in the Championship.

 

2014/15 and sold out away ends (and many more in some home sections at times) will still be relatively fresh in the minds of some club owners.

 

 

Having a browse, championship clubs fans are rubbing their hands at hearts bringing thousands.

 

Id love to think we'll make them regret that assumption.

 

 

[Last Laff]

Just now, Ethan Hunt said:

If club Chairmen are prepared to put the existence of their club on the line because of arsehole fans shouting hate on social media then hell mend them. Football clubs are businesses. They need to do what is best for that business to survive. If not wanting to upset a few hundred social media arseholes negatively influences them, well, they’ll deserve their ultimate outcome.

What clubs existences are on the line that would be saved by voting the proposal and why would it save them? I see little benefit at all for any of the teams under the Prem at all for the leagues changing.  More of the same for the majority with a good few clubs getting knocked down a level. 

[Whatever]

1 minute ago, husref musemic said:

Having a browse, championship clubs fans are rubbing their hands at hearts bringing thousands.

 

Id love to think we'll make them regret that assumption.

 

 

Just as I thought.

 

Well I won’t be giving them a penny..

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, husref musemic said:

Having a browse, championship clubs fans are rubbing their hands at hearts bringing thousands.

 

Id love to think we'll make them regret that assumption.

 

 

Pretty daft considering social distancing that will still be in place for the next year.  There won’t be thousands of away fans anywhere for absolutely ages. 

[Ethan Hunt]

3 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Hold on a minute! You’re trying to say there isn’t a red London bus on the moon?  

Tickets please!

[Last Laff]

1 minute ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Tickets please!

Ive been watching Peppa Pig non stop the past 2 months, I’m already there mate  

[Super_Hans]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

We should just set up a breakaway league of those clubs that can play closed doors and **** the rest of these diddy clubs. 

If it's the Championship or League one/two clubs that fail to pass this proposal through, I think there is a real chance of this. If the likes of Dunfermline and QOS can't field a team anyone left in the Championship could form a breakaway top flight with the Premiership. All the Sky money going to 14/16 teams rather than 42.

[Riccarton3]

6 minutes ago, Hearts1975 said:

There is no “dignity” in accepting a flawed decision which damages our club and where there are other decisions that could be made and certainly would not nail us to the cross for something that isn’t our own doing.

 

If someone is trying to urinate all over you, you don’t lie down and act like you want your belly tickled. You get up and you fight back. 

 

There aint any dignity with getting pissed upon and accepting it!

You don't feed a monster, you fight it

[Footballfirst]

11 minutes ago, EH23-Jambo said:

 

Of more interest is the going concern warning from their auditors

 

[Rick Sanchez]

I would hope Budge refuses tickets for away grounds next season, just to get the point across. If some of the die hards want to go they can purchase from the home clubs directly.

 

Not a chance I'd be doing that, other than ICT.

[Tennant's 6's]

1 hour ago, Ethan Hunt said:

If you’ve read the whole proposal then I think it’s clear - to me anyway - that we are going down the legal route if this fails. The mention of the benefactors was to should we have the means to take them to court, and the means to survive after it regardless of the result. My take on it is that the benefactors are effectively saying go for it.

That's what I thought as well.

Why would they care about us being portrayed as the arch enemies of a corrupt cabal..

I thought that she was showing our strength as a club, ready to help solve the problem, but also ready to fight any injustice that might fall upon us

[1874jrs]

If we go to court will the lower league clubs have to pay equal share of legal costs meaning for example it costs the spfl £205000 each club being liable of £5k before compensation 

[Victorian]

This is all about Hearts saving Hearts.   Self interest.

 

Ooft... Hearts.   They're big.   They'll bring their fans to our decaying corpse of a club.   We might survive.   

[Stone1992]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

Of more interest is the going concern warning from their auditors

 

 

I work in Audit and we are having to put disclosures in almost every audit we do about Covid.

 

Not saying Hamilton aren't in difficulty but think you will see this in a lot of Audit reports this year.

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, Stone1992 said:

 

I work in Audit and we are having to put disclosures in almost every audit we do about Covid.

 

Not saying Hamilton aren't in difficulty but think you will see this in a lot of Audit reports this year.

 

Ban please, Mods

[Whatever]

4 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

I would hope Budge refuses tickets for away grounds next season, just to get the point across. If some of the die hards want to go they can purchase from the home clubs directly.

 

Not a chance I'd be doing that, other than ICT.

Correct.

[Hearts1975]

4 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

You don't feed a monster, you fight it

I’ve heard, and read a lot of pish said about us over the last few months.

 

To hear any poster, and I make the assumption that they are a Jambo, saying that we should accept the decision with “dignity” makes my blood f...... boil.

 

No idea if I took what he said the wrong way but happy to be corrected on that one. 

[Koolkeith]

5 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

I would hope Budge refuses tickets for away grounds next season, just to get the point across. If some of the die hards want to go they can purchase from the home clubs directly.

 

Not a chance I'd be doing that, other than ICT.

That would be a good proposal, but does create more bad blood.  

[Clark Griswold]

1 minute ago, Koolkeith said:

That would be a good proposal, but does create more bad blood.  

who cares? We look after ourselves from now on. Feck the lot of them

[Nookie Bear]

7 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

I would hope Budge refuses tickets for away grounds next season, just to get the point across. If some of the die hards want to go they can purchase from the home clubs directly.

 

Not a chance I'd be doing that, other than ICT.

 

Not a chance she would ever do that.

[husref musemic]

8 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Pretty daft considering social distancing that will still be in place for the next year.  There won’t be thousands of away fans anywhere for absolutely ages. 

i don't know what kind of outlook on the world these people have, but there judgements are generally based  on normality & giving us a kick in (the mini huns stuff is hilarious right enough).....

 

e.g. -

 

 

Hearts fans have in their number a fairly large percentage of people who cannot get season tickets for Ibrox. You know the type their knuckles touch the ground. They will make a large percentage of the fans who will not come to EEP. Other more decent ones might stay away on their first visit but will come in huge numbers, especially if they are top of the league.

[stuart500]

Ann's document should really just be seen as the starting point. A first draft of the answers to the new reality.

 

Any clubs dismissing it at this stage should be asked how they see things going forward. If they think the status quo will see every club safely through the pandemic then they should explain why.

 

If they cannot do so they will be outing themselves as acting spitefully and maliciously and not in the spirit of sporting integrity. Perhaps bringing the game into disrepute?

 

All clubs need to carefully consider what Ann has produced. If it needs tweaked it needs tweaked and tweaks can be included in the final draft that goes to a vote.

 

I would like to hope that if our trading position is adversly affected by unfair actions we would have rights to have an OFT investigation. That would enable a proper legally enforceable forensic investigation of all SPFL records. ( I would add I do not know if this is legally possible but businesses have an obligation to act fairly and voting a competitor maliciously into a non active league seems to go against that!)

[luckydug]

3 hours ago, Captain Canada said:

It's possibly irrelevant how the lower league clubs vote on this just now. Very soon we'll have a situation where probably less than 20 teams are able to start the season BCD in August. 

 

The SPFL should be seeking urgent clarification on that now with a deadline given before any vote takes place. If there are say four teams outside the premier who want to play and are able to, not finding a place for them could lead to more court action potentially. 

 

The SPFL needs to step up now and do everything it can to make sure every club that can play from August has a viable league to play in. 

 

My worry is they'll rush through a vote, which won't pass, and then the landscape will change again completely a week later. 

That's my thoughts as well. 

The SPFL/SFA should be organising a roll call to find out which clubs expect to be in a position to start the season. 

Only clubs able to start the season should be allowed to vote imo. 

 

[Simmo]

38 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

The last ten pages have reaffirmed all I already knew about the media/social media and how easily they can influence people. When AB’s proposal was first published a few hours ago there was optimism on here that it was a good proposal, mapping the way forward for all clubs, and it had a good chance of being agreed. A few ‘unnamed source’ articles, and supporters rants on social media later and it’s all doom and gloom.

 

The media/social media is just noise, it’s best ignored. Some of it is deliberately created to deflect attention, dampen optimism, and worse designed to influence people into making the decisions which fit the medias agenda. If we believe everything in the media we’d still believe there is a red London bus on the moon FFS! Ignore the noise.

Ethan, it is difficult to 'ignore the noise' when nearly all of the press are using headlines like 'doomed to fail' when in fact they should all be behind the plan and all commenting on why didn't Dungcaster think of this plan. As I said earlier why do we need a vote. Surely the SPFL should now be saying this is the way forward and this is how it will be. No shilly shally get on with it.

[Victorian]

Worry about bad blood with clubs who are putting a ball & chain on us in the delusion that they're going to survive because of our fans?

 

Naw.   No worries there.

[Ethan Hunt]

26 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

What clubs existences are on the line that would be saved by voting the proposal and why would it save them? I see little benefit at all for any of the teams under the Prem at all for the leagues changing.  More of the same for the majority with a good few clubs getting knocked down a level. 

It’s the clubs whose existence would be on the line due to the repercussions of not accepting it. That will bring about legal action from Hearts. If - and I’m confident - that legal action is successful the financial implications for some clubs will threaten their very existence.

 

The proposal put forward by AB is designed specifically to deal with the current and short/medium term issues facing Scottish football I.e. COVID19. It is not a blueprint for the long term future of the game, it’s a survival plan!

 

There’s two important parts of this proposal. Firstly it is only for two years. Secondly, and the most important one, by regrouping clubs it allows clubs with the finances to do so to play games behind closed doors initially. Those who require to have some fans attend games before they can start to play can have a curtailed season. Those clubs who need fans through the gates to survive can mothball until the situation improves that will allow that. Every club therefore stands the best chance of surviving. The clubs will then have a set up that can best fit their current and future needs until such time as we find other ways to deal with the ‘new normal’.

 

Any posturing about where clubs clubs fit into that model it just that, posturing. Any club moaning about being in a different league needs a reality check.  A wee look at the balance sheet will tell clubs where they fit into the model. They might not like where they fit, but that’s what happens when reality bites.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ethan Hunt

[Hagar the Horrible]

To be fair  Hamilton can wipe that debt just by betting on the result of Anns proposal?

 

 

Seriously though, some clubs will be struggling next month and may well kick the admin can further down the road, until they hit a cul-de-sac.  If we go to court that could accelerate that route, and the more clubs in admin then their voting rights alter.

 

Yes its about saving Hearts to a point, to most of us that is priority 1.  But is that a bad thing, I thought it was about saving clubs?  we are one of those clubs?  The reality is: its about saving all clubs? killing us off, wont mean oh we are now going to turn up and support somebody else?  We are not Jabba T when his beloved Airdrieonians went bust?  no he went to work for the club that killed his?

 

Clubs need to stop being so childish, so what if Hearts get a get out of jail card? it wont be at the expense of anybody else?  and ICT benefit, as do Partick and Stranraer?  Even Brechin get to keep their status?

 

Killing us off wont happen, but dont expect any sympathy from us when your clubs suffer too?  If everybody was to rally around us and as a consequence us all, then any club in trouble fans would help each other?  Right now unless the naritive changes then its Hearts First!

[Hearts1975]

1 minute ago, Simmo said:

Ethan, it is difficult to 'ignore the noise' when nearly all of the press are using headlines like 'doomed to fail' when in fact they should all be behind the plan and all commenting on why didn't Dungcaster think of this plan. As I said earlier why do we need a vote. Surely the SPFL should now be saying this is the way forward and this is how it will be. No shilly shally get on with it.

He is right though TBF

If the media get behind it and try and promote the reconstruction it doesn’t sell as many newspapers or garner as much attention as saying it’s doomed 

They are playing to the plebs that will go out and buy these same papers in order to maximise their own revenue performance 

Money talks and plebs will buy regardless of the shit which is contained inside the articles 

[OTT]

I can understand the hesitation championship clubs have around the prospect of 6 teams going down, but there is a staggered way this could be done. Alternatively, it could end up permanent but we need to go through this initial temp phase to appease other clubs. 

[MCW1976]

12 minutes ago, Clark Griswold said:

who cares? We look after ourselves from now on. Feck the lot of them

 

 

14 minutes ago, Koolkeith said:

That would be a good proposal, but does create more bad blood.  

You didn’t just say that, did you?

 

I consider myself fair and level headed; however, I will take serious pleasure from other clubs collapsing - which will almost certainly come to pass.

Edited May 27, 2020 by MCW1976