SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[JimmyCant]

8 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

Jimmy, can I just ask you something?

 

Why are you so absolutely against HMFC fighting to protect themselves from this? 
 

No accusations or anything, I’m just trying to understand how your comments are so passionately against us defending ourselves from what is a total injustice and potentially (for the club) life-threatening? 

You have misread me In afraid.

 

I’m 100% passionately in favour of us defending ourselves. Legally being the only route left if reconstruction fails. I was merely asking a poster who represents himself as having expertise to confirm that the court could reverse the expulsion. 
 

My impression with limited legal experience and none at all in the field of civil claims and litigation is that the court can award damages (for actual or realistic estimated loss and for punitive reasons) but wouldn’t have the power to order reversal of decisions of the type we’re concerned about.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

You're giving the arsehole way too much credit for finally bowing to the massive pressure he was getting. The fact that he couldn't tell them to **** off and organise it properly is not the sign of a competent administrator. 

I doubt he has very much power. But you're right,  way too much credit 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

2 hours ago, gorgie rd eh11 said:

 

 

Even if you agree with how everything has turned out you can't surely believe he's made anything other than a complete **** of it. He's incompetent at best. 

The clubs have,  he is only putting in place what the representatives are doing. 

 

Probably with a very strong influence from you know who.

 

He is the fall guy for the carnage the clubs create 

[The Verminator]

4 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Its called the hygiene factor. 

 

Any ordinary time we don't even consider Neil Doncaster, because things tick along fine. Same as a referee, nobody applauds a referee for doing their job. 

 

I would say in any given year,  probably at least 350 days of the year we would be oblivious to him or the general administration of the SPFL. 

 

We don't applaud him, great fixture list,  great organisation of match officials. 

 

We didn't actually bother to thank him or his organisation for being extremely supportive when we built a new stand.

 

I will say it one final time,  got no real desire to defend the fud, but I reckon he can administrate and ordinarily well. 

 

But he is a god awful front man. And for the life of me I will never know why he would earn 388k, astonishing. 

 

And he is a ***** 

 

I agree with what you say. How many of us could have actually named him before this whole coronavirus thing started - I don`t think I could have

[graygo]

6 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

You have misread me In afraid.

 

I’m 100% passionately in favour of us defending ourselves. Legally being the only route left if reconstruction fails. I was merely asking a poster who represents himself as having expertise to confirm that the court could reverse the expulsion. 
 

My impression with limited legal experience and none at all in the field of civil claims and litigation is that the court can award damages (for actual or realistic estimated loss and for punitive reasons) but wouldn’t have the power to order reversal of decisions of the type we’re concerned about.

 

It could be that if it looks like the court case is going our way that the SPFL lawyers advise them to strike a deal (reconstruction) before the verdict.

[The Verminator]

1 minute ago, graygo said:

 

It could be that if it looks like the court case is going our way that the SPFL lawyers advise them to strike a deal (reconstruction) before the verdict.

But the season may have already started before any court case would be heard ruling out a deal on reconstruction surely?. The wheels of justice don`t exactly move fast.

 

I freely admit that I don`t have a scooby about law btw!

[GMEdinburgh]

Genuine question and apoligies if posted before but if Hearts or any Club took the SPFL to court could the start of the leagues be delayed not knowing what League they should be playing in or would they insist the clubs to play in the league they have demoted too and work out compensation.  Ta

[JimmyCant]

35 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

The rule (if there is one) is that you shouldn’t take your national FA to court. 
 

For us, that’s the SFA, not the SPFL. 

The general prohibition

Due to the specificity of sports, FIFA generally expects parties to approach football/sports tribunals whenever disputes arise. Thus, FIFA expressly bars its members (Member associations of FIFA, confederations, clubs, players, coaches, or licensed match agents) from approaching civil courts.

Article 59 (2) of the FIFA Statutes (2018)provides thus:

“Recourse to ordinary courts of law is prohibited unless specifically provided for in the FIFA regulations. Recourse to ordinary courts of law for all types of provisional measures is also prohibited.”

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, kila said:

 

Brilliant 

[annushorribilis III]

2 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

The general prohibition

Due to the specificity of sports, FIFA generally expects parties to approach football/sports tribunals whenever disputes arise. Thus, FIFA expressly bars its members (Member associations of FIFA, confederations, clubs, players, coaches, or licensed match agents) from approaching civil courts.

Article 59 (2) of the FIFA Statutes (2018)provides thus:

“Recourse to ordinary courts of law is prohibited unless specifically provided for in the FIFA regulations. Recourse to ordinary courts of law for all types of provisional measures is also prohibited.”

"Expects" being the key word here.

In any case Rangers proved this isn't a requirement when they went to court with the SFA over the signing embargo they appealed against. And won. 

[Fozzyonthefence]

23 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

Aside from furlough ending I thought training and development was allowed. Accept I could be wrong with that.

I’ve not seen that but it sounds like a completely different kind of training? Training for a footballer is the biggest and most normal part of their working week, they get paid for it.  It’s part of their contract and they spend a lot more of their time training than they do playing football matches.

 

iirc Cormack said that they’d taken legal advice on this when he was on Sportsound last month and they wouldn’t be able to furlough players because they would be giving them training programmes to do which constitutes work.  

[The Verminator]

Amiens are going to be relegated, French Courts threw it out

 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11992991/ligue-1-lyon-amiens-and-toulouse-appeals-rejected-by-french-judge

[JimmyCant]

11 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

"Expects" being the key word here.

In any case Rangers proved this isn't a requirement when they went to court with the SFA over the signing embargo they appealed against. And won. 

True. A case which FIFA specifically commented on and threatened action on because it broke the rule. Don’t believe it came to anything other than a comment from them though.

Edited May 22, 2020 by JimmyCant

[annushorribilis III]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

True. A case which FIFA specifically commented on and threatened action on because it broke the rule. Don’t believe it can to anything other than a comment from them though.

Yup. Nothing happened. 

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

True. A case which FIFA specifically commented on and threatened action on because it broke the rule. Don’t believe it can to anything other than a comment from them though.

 

SFA get a black mark. 

 

Rod Petrie and the Appeals people are on notice. 

[JimmyCant]

Just now, Mikey1874 said:

 

SFA get a black mark. 

 

Rod Petrie and the Appeals people are on notice. 

I’m pretty sure the SFA were told to sort it out by FIFA and keep it out of court, however nothing much was ever done after it did actually go to court.  Possibly a private warning from FIFA, who knows ?

[JimmyCant]

6 minutes ago, BarneyBattles said:

‘Generally expects’. 
 

I stopped reading there. 

You should have read the bit that said ‘expressly forbids’ then you might have looked at the regulation itself and you’d see what is meant by ‘generally expects’ To save you the trouble though, it means there are exceptions relating to employment disputes between clubs and players.

[milky_26]

Just now, JimmyCant said:

You should have read the bit that said ‘expressly forbids’ then you might have looked at the regulation itself and you’d see what is meant by ‘generally expects’ To save you the trouble though, it means there are exceptions relating to employment disputes between clubs and players.

you do realise FIFA do not outrank courts

[Ethan Hunt]

22 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Its called the hygiene factor. 

 

Any ordinary time we don't even consider Neil Doncaster, because things tick along fine. Same as a referee, nobody applauds a referee for doing their job. 

 

I would say in any given year,  probably at least 350 days of the year we would be oblivious to him or the general administration of the SPFL. 

 

We don't applaud him, great fixture list,  great organisation of match officials. 

 

We didn't actually bother to thank him or his organisation for being extremely supportive when we built a new stand.

 

I will say it one final time,  got no real desire to defend the fud, but I reckon he can administrate and ordinarily well. 

 

But he is a god awful front man. And for the life of me I will never know why he would earn 388k, astonishing. 

 

And he is a ***** 

 

What a pile of pish.

 

You’ve essentially tried to defend your comment that he was a “top class administrator” by compiling a very short list of stuff that is applicable to the role of an office junior 😂😂 Except for what he’s paid - £388k a year - you could get 25 office juniors, everyone of which would be “extremely supportive” of our new stand 😂😂
 

Your right though, it’s obvious you have no real desire to defend him, if you did you would surely have come up with something better that that shite.

 

Now, do yourself a favour. Put the shovel down and come out of that hole.

 

 

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

So you are confirming with 100% certainty that the court will have the authority and the jurisdiction to order the SPFL to keep Hearts in the Premier league or to set aside the resolution or to null and void the league ? Any of those things ?

 

Do you also have a legally qualified view on whether the SPFL will refer us to UEFA for taking a football authority to a civil court and whether in fact we’ve broken any rule if we do that ?

 

Off the top of my head Rangers and Craig Levein have taken the SFA to court (both won).

[JimmyCant]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Off the top of my head Rangers and Craig Levein have taken the SFA to court (both won).

Levein settled out of court 

[annushorribilis III]

3 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

Off the top of my head Rangers and Craig Levein have taken the SFA to court (both won).

CL's was purely an employment issue -he wanted his pay off in a lump sum after being sacked and the SFA refused. CL went to court , they reached an agreement IIRC. Can't be arsed looking it up. 

[Beni]

1 hour ago, Deevers said:

And the only team to benefit from any of this being Celtic - who have been as quiet as mice throughout this whole debacle.  The game here stinks and needs root and breach reform starting with the sacking of the idiot Doncaster.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by fancy a brew

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

8 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

What a pile of pish.

 

You’ve essentially tried to defend your comment that he was a “top class administrator” by compiling a very short list of stuff that is applicable to the role of an office junior 😂😂 Except for what he’s paid - £388k a year - you could get 25 office juniors, everyone of which would be “extremely supportive” of our new stand 😂😂
 

Your right though, it’s obvious you have no real desire to defend him, if you did you would surely have come up with something better that that shite.

 

Now, do yourself a favour. Put the shovel down and come out of that hole.

 

 

If someone has a different opinion its a pile of pish.

 

Give yourself a break Ethan, and get over yourself. 

 

Don't resort to obscenities because someone has a different viewpoint. 

 

You've got an unhealthy superiority complex going on there buddy. I'll remain civil if you can't. 

 

What do you do yourself for a living out of interest?

 

 

 

 

[JimmyCant]

15 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

you do realise FIFA do not outrank courts

Dunno. Ask Juventus and the Italian FA if that’s really true 

Edited May 22, 2020 by JimmyCant

[Smoked-Glass]

2 hours ago, Bourne Jambo said:

 

Just a quick question, why does there have to be 4 old firm games ?  2 is enough surely. Is there any league, anywhere, with a similar set up.  Bonkers.

Sky want 4.  No way they will drop to even 3 let alone 2.

[Ethan Hunt]

4 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

If someone has a different opinion its a pile of pish.

 

Give yourself a break Ethan, and get over yourself. 

 

Don't resort to obscenities because someone has a different viewpoint. 

 

You've got an unhealthy superiority complex going on there buddy. I'll remain civil if you can't. 

 

What do you do yourself for a living out of interest?

Would you believe me if I told you I was.........an Administrator?

[redjambo]

51 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Its called the hygiene factor. 

 

Any ordinary time we don't even consider Neil Doncaster, because things tick along fine. Same as a referee, nobody applauds a referee for doing their job. 

 

I would say in any given year,  probably at least 350 days of the year we would be oblivious to him or the general administration of the SPFL. 

 

We don't applaud him, great fixture list,  great organisation of match officials. 

 

We didn't actually bother to thank him or his organisation for being extremely supportive when we built a new stand.

 

I will say it one final time,  got no real desire to defend the fud, but I reckon he can administrate and ordinarily well. 

 

But he is a god awful front man. And for the life of me I will never know why he would earn 388k, astonishing. 

 

And he is a ***** 

 

 

Sorry to pick up on a small point, but is it not the SFA who organise the match officials?

[Guest ToqueJambo]

13 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

CL's was purely an employment issue -he wanted his pay off in a lump sum after being sacked and the SFA refused. CL went to court , they reached an agreement IIRC. Can't be arsed looking it up. 

 

That was the second time. While at Hearts he won a suspension of his touchline ban.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

15 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Levein settled out of court 

 

While at Hearts he won a suspension of his touchline ban.

[Last Laff]

32 minutes ago, The Verminator said:

Amiens are going to be relegated, French Courts threw it out

 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11992991/ligue-1-lyon-amiens-and-toulouse-appeals-rejected-by-french-judge

They will appeal for losses though, surely? 

[Mikey1874]

18 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said:

CL's was purely an employment issue -he wanted his pay off in a lump sum after being sacked and the SFA refused. CL went to court , they reached an agreement IIRC. Can't be arsed looking it up. 

 

There was another more notable court case involving Craig Levein 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2003/sep/11/newsstory.sport21

Edited May 22, 2020 by Mikey1874

[GorgieRules22]

1 minute ago, Last Laff said:

They will appeal for losses though, surely? 

That’s possibly never been an issue over there. They probably never experienced a voting scandal either or the prospect of not playing football until January just because some clubs can’t. These things are not our problem and play into our hands.

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, Smoked-Glass said:

Sky want 4.  No way they will drop to even 3 let alone 2.

It’s purely a viewer numbers thing. They get 1.4 million viewers in the UK and many more world wide for an OF game. All other Scottish games are 100,000 viewers or less. The last Edinburgh derby on Sky had 58,000 viewers in the UK

 

To put it in perspective their average Super Sunday UK audience is 2.5 - 3 million Plus worldwide figures Goes to around 4 million UK if it’s a key top 4 game.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

4 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Would you believe me if I told you I was.........an Administrator?

No reason not to believe you

 

I'm not here for agro. Simply believe politics,  self interest and biases are far greater concerns than the patsy they send out to explain the cluster**** of board members decisions 

 

 

[annushorribilis III]

3 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

They will appeal for losses though, surely? 

Looks like the court had no jurisdiction to hear the case , not that they don't have a case -

"In three orders issued on Friday afternoon, the court ruled that the general decisions taken by the League's board of directors on 30 April could only be challenged before the State Council, which is competent to hear regulatory decisions taken by national authorities such as the LFP."

 

 

[Jambo66]

1 hour ago, JimmyCant said:

So you are confirming with 100% certainty that the court will have the authority and the jurisdiction to order the SPFL to keep Hearts in the Premier league or to set aside the resolution or to null and void the league ? Any of those things ?

 

Do you also have a legally qualified view on whether the SPFL will refer us to UEFA for taking a football authority to a civil court and whether in fact we’ve broken any rule if we do that ?

100% certain? Is that a serious question?

As others have pointed out, the SPFL cannot refer us to UEFA.

[JimmyCant]

6 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

That was the second time. While at Hearts he won a suspension of his touchline ban.

2003. Before the FIFA ban on going to court

[Jambo66]

1 hour ago, OldGorgie said:

Not being pedantic but in Scotland it will be advocates and senior advocates who take part in court case. Some of them may be QC’s. Scottish civil law is not the same as English.

I'll see your pedantic and raise you one more. Senior advocates in Scotland are QCs.

[JimmyCant]

Just now, Jambo66 said:

100% certain? Is that a serious question?

As others have pointed out, the SPFL cannot refer us to UEFA.

I’m asking if they have the jurisdiction and the authority, not how and what they will decide.

[OldGorgie]

35 minutes ago, The Verminator said:

Amiens are going to be relegated, French Courts threw it out

 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11992991/ligue-1-lyon-amiens-and-toulouse-appeals-rejected-by-french-judge

Amazing the lengths so called impartial journalists will go to support the SPFL and Celtic. This week has seen a steady stream of planted stories all designed to undermine Hearts. From that no mark at St Midden to Doncaster, all are given prime place in the news, including the EEN.

[JimmyCant]

Just now, Jambo66 said:

I'll see your pedantic and raise you one more. Senior advocates in Scotland are QCs.

Not all of them

[Deevers]

21 minutes ago, fancy a brew said:

 

Exactly. Orwell was a true visionary on so much.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

6 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Sorry to pick up on a small point, but is it not the SFA who organise the match officials?

Not 100% now you mention it. Fair point. 

 

Over arching point, in ordinary times,  things are fairly well run. But naturally,  in administration,  that is expected,  its only when you **** up anyone pays attention. 

 

Flimsy organisation in general,  bare bones and badly needed is someone to sell it and drive it. 

 

Getting shot of the cheeks would take a good deal of complexity out of the political narrative 

[SectionDJambo]

27 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

Levein settled out of court 

Because he was winning. The SFA fined him for an offence that wasn’t covered in their rule book.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

4 minutes ago, JimmyCant said:

2003. Before the FIFA ban on going to court

 

And Rangers in 2012? I have no idea about Fifa but in any case we are well within our rights to sue for damages due to a vote that was dodgy to say the least.

[JimmyCant]

2 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

And Rangers in 2012? I have no idea about Fifa but in any case we are well within our rights to sue for damages due to a vote that was dodgy to say the least.

Of course we have the right. In a free democracy everyone has the right to go to court for redress. FIFA has a rule against it . Both things are factual

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

Interesting new administration rules with HMRC.

 

CVA can only be agreed upon full tax payments. 

 

I wonder if that will be relaxed with so many companies in difficulty. 

 

Going to liquidate far more 

[Ethan Hunt]

Just now, Sir Gio said:

No reason not to believe you

 

I'm not here for agro. Simply believe politics,  self interest and biases are far greater concerns than the patsy they send out to explain the cluster**** of board members decisions 

 

 

Well I did give you a get out of jail free card early doors in this debate when I asked you if you thought he was a puppet.
 

The man is utterly incompetent at anything beyond the basic function of his role. You have even highlighted some of his deficiencies. When he is required to do anything that requires some finesse or sophistication he is found wanting. 

 

Lawell described Doncaster as a “capable guy”. At £388k a year Scottish football clubs should be getting more than “capable” for their cash.

[JimmyCant]

4 minutes ago, SectionDJambo said:

Because he was winning. The SFA fined him for an offence that wasn’t covered in their rule book.

Ahhh right. There were two Levein ‘court’ cases. The one for money he was due when the SFA sacked him was settled out of court. the one for the touch line ban went to court but was before the FIFA rule forbidding court cases