SPFL and Covid ( Leagues 1 and 2 to restart )

[Biffa Bacon]

2 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Diplomacy and negation always works better.

 

If we held other clubs to ransom claiming we’d be unfairly treated could the clubs who weren’t against reconstruction, but still had their money frozen, not say the same?

 

This is about winning friends and influencing people at the moment. There’s a time and a place for tough action and we’re not quite there yet.

Absolutely, negotiation is always needed to come up with a resolution, even if it went to a court case, the world does not end and our interests are best served if we can work with other clubs.

[gavin1985]

3 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

Cheers. Would love a 16 team league. Always thought 18 was the right number but 16 is a massive step in the right direction. 10 and 12 teams leagues are utter shit. 

Spot on, couldn’t think of anything worse than a 10 or 12 team league. 14 is also just as bad.

 

Personally I’d go with 16 as i think that’s the right number if they insist of keeping the league cup. Ideally ditch that and go for 18 team leagues. 

[cauther col]

I heard from a source there wil be a 14 team premier league including Inverness.

[baron of ness]

1 hour ago, 6.57 said:

Dundee are actually extending players contracts.   They are one of the few Championship clubs who will be able to retain most of their squad and also add to it.

Is that a no vote or a yes vote?

[Mikey1874]

As above 

 

 

[SectionDJambo]

6 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Diplomacy and negation always works better.

 

If we held other clubs to ransom claiming we’d be unfairly treated could the clubs who weren’t against reconstruction, but still had their money frozen, not say the same?

 

This is about winning friends and influencing people at the moment. There’s a time and a place for tough action and we’re not quite there yet.

I agree.

Doncaster, and his chums, has all the clubs at each other’s throats after the disastrous way he went about his business with that farce of a vote. 
Somebody has to actually talk to the clubs, without a direct threat lurking, to see if their can be any hope of a consensus to see out this crisis by saving as many of them as possible. If the majority of clubs are still stupid enough to think that the condition of Scottish football will be the same at the other end of this, as when that vote was taken, then there will be a significant reduction in the number of them who can carry on as before.

An attempt has to be made to lead them away from their entrenched positions.

[GinRummy]

6 minutes ago, gavin1985 said:

Spot on, couldn’t think of anything worse than a 10 or 12 team league. 14 is also just as bad.

 

Personally I’d go with 16 as i think that’s the right number if they insist of keeping the league cup. Ideally ditch that and go for 18 team leagues. 

I think the ideal thing is for everyone to play each other home and away and then the season is done. Splits and -laying each other 3-4 times just bores the shit out of me. 

[EIEIO]

4 minutes ago, cauther col said:

I heard from a source there wil be a 14 team premier league including Inverness.

So long as it includes Hearts.

[Jambo66]

4 minutes ago, gavin1985 said:

Spot on, couldn’t think of anything worse than a 10 or 12 team league. 14 is also just as bad.

 

Personally I’d go with 16 as i think that’s the right number if they insist of keeping the league cup. Ideally ditch that and go for 18 team leagues. 

A 12 team league with the split we have is by some distance the worst set up we could have. At least with a 10 team league everyone gets the same thing - 2 home and away matches against everyone. In a 14 team league everyone gets 1 home and away against all of the teams and then the same again against either 5 or 7 teams. That is relatively fair.

The abomination we have at the moment has always done my head in. There is no good reason for it and the sooner it is gone for good, the better.

I'm with you that 18 is the optimum number as it gives enough league games (which 16 doesn't). It also improves the chances that a team (any team) other than the bigot brothers might mount a serious challenge one day.

[Restonbabe]

4 minutes ago, cauther col said:

I heard from a source there wil be a 14 team premier league including Inverness.

That's the 1st proposal. Its very complex and all hinges on what exactly the govt are doing. Its looking like August at the earliest before we can even talk about sport up here in whatever form can restart. 

Training is being lobbied to the govt. For 10th June. However with furlough engulfing 99% of all clubs I cannot see how they can. It is effectively work isn't it 

[Busby8]

1 minute ago, EIEIO said:

So long as it includes Hearts.

 

Don't bank on it.

 

Might well be the first instalment of the payback due to Dundee.

 

.

[gorgie rd eh11]

1 hour ago, 6.57 said:

Dundee are actually extending players contracts.   They are one of the few Championship clubs who will be able to retain most of their squad and also add to it.

 

 

 Dundee are being watched very closely. Any "friendlies" or signings/loans will be heavily scrutinized. People are intrigued to know exactly what the bribe was.

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Sir Gio said:

You didn't answer my question. 

 

You blaming Doncaster for the virus now. 

 

The reality is the virus has caused all of these issues and Scotland is not alone. 

 

Doncaster failed multiple times on selling the game,  he has survived many crises,  because when you strip everything back,  he actually does administrative very  well. 

 

Not agreeing with the view of 41 other clubs and their masters is not to say the guy is actually rubbish,  we rarely enjoy the political experience of Scottish football , in this company his role is different to most companies. 

 

Do I like him. No  can't stand him, would I employ him, definitely,  I can see past my personal prejudices. 

 

Never as a salesman or front man though 

 

Can you give us examples of his excellent admin skills?

[Jamie3lb]

53 minutes ago, Jambo66 said:

Ok. Let's put it this way. In a couple of months we are in court and the judge asks our QC if we did everything we could to solve things without going to court. Our QC says yes and the judge says "what about trying to get reconstruction?".

Our QC's response is that we started to put together a proposal, but the guy who we are claiming is incompetent and untruthful told us that 6 clubs weren't going to support it, so we didn't bother.

How exactly do you think that will go down in court?

I say again, there was no vote. We have little idea how that vote would have gone other than what Doncaster allegedly told us.

You do know that’s not how court works? The judge doesn’t sit there and fire off a load of questions. Writ/Summons lodged>defences>adjustment period>record lodged (evidence can only be led from what’s in the record (final document with both side’s pleadings> evidential heading> witnesses give evidence>QC’s give legal submissions> Judge will take avizandum most likely> written Judgment issued. 
 

unless the case is won at debate (legal point/arguments), therefore case is won at that point and no evidence is led. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Jamie3lb

[SUTOL]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Can you give us examples of his excellent admin skills?

 

He managed to administer Celtic a 9th title in a row. 

 

Just what his puppet-master wanted. 

[Busby8]

7 minutes ago, gorgie rd eh11 said:

 

 

 Dundee are being watched very closely. Any "friendlies" or signings/loans will be heavily scrutinized. People are intrigued to know exactly what the bribe was.

 

Dundee and the mhob that coerced them wont give a Flying F.

The reward will be presented in broad daylight.

 

Reminds me a bit of that Trump quote, can't recall the exact words, but along the lines of where he said he could  shoot someone in the middle of New York and he would get away with it.

 

.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Busby8

[CJGJ]

An important step to getting fans back into stadiums is being considered .. never mind the pubs

 

Britain’s physical distancing advice to stay 2 metres from other people is a “precautionary approach” and could change to allow closer contact, top officials from Public Health England (PHE) have said.

The guidance is out of line with advice in most other countries and with recommendations from the World Health Organisation, which says people should stay just one metre apart.

“We have taken a precautionary approach to say 2 metres apart, full stop,” said Yvonne Doyle, medical director of PHE in evidence to a hearing of the science and technology committee of MPs. “We are still learning about the virus.”

But, she said, the safe distance is still, being discussed and evidence amassed as the end of lockdown restrictions approaches. Doyle said she was aware that a reduction to 1 metre or 1.5 metres could make the difference between businesses re-opening or not.

It is an important decision. We are clearly aware of that. We are aware of the requirements of the economy and business. We are aware of the concerns and anxieties of the population. But the science should inform the measures as we go forward,” she said. PHE is contributing to discussions in Sage on the infectivity of the virus in different settings and its transmission on surfaces.

Greg Clark, chair of the committee, pointed out that the UK was going it alone by insisting on a 2 metre separation. “Other countries are recommending a shorter distance,” he said. The WHO, Hong Kong, Singapore, France and China all say 1m apart is enough. Australia, Germany and the Netherlands recommend 1.5m while South Korea opts for the equivalent of 1.4m.

“In international comparisons, we are an outlier at an extreme end of the distancing that is recommended,” he told her.

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 hour ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Bit of a rant there buddy. Feel free to compile a list of all the things he’s done to make him in any way “top class”.

 

Incidentally, see if you strip everything back, the real reason he has survived so many crises is due to Scottish footballs incredible ability to tolerate incompetence. That and some good old skullduggery and underhandedness thrown in for good measure. It’s part of the reason Scottish football has been a complete joke for so long.

 

 

 

 

 

Not a rant at all. Let's not judge us all by our own emotions 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 hour ago, Tynehead said:

 

A business does not require to pay a "competent administrator" £380,000 per annum. The pandemic aside his performance has been underwhelming.

Agreed,  the wages are excessive,  but if you were offered them,  you wouldn't turn them down 

[Diadora Van Basten]

7 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

He managed to administer Celtic a 9th title in a row. 

 

Just what his puppet-master wanted. 

 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 hour ago, Ribble said:

 

So how would you explain an excellent administrator being behind in his duties to an extent that 15 sets of meetings minutes hadn't been signed off?

 

I sit in a board of trustee's for an Arts Charity, the chair of that board is an artist and on the board voluntarily, before any board meeting begins he will ensure that the minutes of the previous meeting as signed off. So how do you explain an artist, working voluntarily with zero business background and one days training on how to chair a board from arts and business scotland is more competent in administering a board meeting than someone being paid a six figure salary?

Generally the day to day running of the Scottish League is professional. 

 

I will point out one obvious error,  the League Cup scheduled after European matches resulting in that drama. 

 

The marketing is awful,  really need a salesperson and a fresh constitution. 

 

Holding 42 squabblers together is difficult. 

 

I don't like him,  but wouldn't want his job, the money mind you 

[gavin1985]

13 minutes ago, Jambo66 said:

A 12 team league with the split we have is by some distance the worst set up we could have. At least with a 10 team league everyone gets the same thing - 2 home and away matches against everyone. In a 14 team league everyone gets 1 home and away against all of the teams and then the same again against either 5 or 7 teams. That is relatively fair.

The abomination we have at the moment has always done my head in. There is no good reason for it and the sooner it is gone for good, the better.

I'm with you that 18 is the optimum number as it gives enough league games (which 16 doesn't). It also improves the chances that a team (any team) other than the bigot brothers might mount a serious challenge one day.

That’s one thing I actually despise is this idea of having to play 3/4 times a season.

 

16 teams with 30 games in a season is enough for the UEFA requirement to get into Europe. Either way keep away from a split in any form! 
 

16 or 18 is my preferred choice. 14 with a stupid split is just another joke that is Scottish football. 

[GinRummy]

4 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

An important step to getting fans back into stadiums is being considered .. never mind the pubs

 

Britain’s physical distancing advice to stay 2 metres from other people is a “precautionary approach” and could change to allow closer contact, top officials from Public Health England (PHE) have said.

The guidance is out of line with advice in most other countries and with recommendations from the World Health Organisation, which says people should stay just one metre apart.

“We have taken a precautionary approach to say 2 metres apart, full stop,” said Yvonne Doyle, medical director of PHE in evidence to a hearing of the science and technology committee of MPs. “We are still learning about the virus.”

But, she said, the safe distance is still, being discussed and evidence amassed as the end of lockdown restrictions approaches. Doyle said she was aware that a reduction to 1 metre or 1.5 metres could make the difference between businesses re-opening or not.

It is an important decision. We are clearly aware of that. We are aware of the requirements of the economy and business. We are aware of the concerns and anxieties of the population. But the science should inform the measures as we go forward,” she said. PHE is contributing to discussions in Sage on the infectivity of the virus in different settings and its transmission on surfaces.

Greg Clark, chair of the committee, pointed out that the UK was going it alone by insisting on a 2 metre separation. “Other countries are recommending a shorter distance,” he said. The WHO, Hong Kong, Singapore, France and China all say 1m apart is enough. Australia, Germany and the Netherlands recommend 1.5m while South Korea opts for the equivalent of 1.4m.

“In international comparisons, we are an outlier at an extreme end of the distancing that is recommended,” he told her.

WHO recommended at least a metre from early on in the epidemic. Now we’re getting hopefully near the end, it would make sense to reduce it to a metre 

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

1 hour ago, gorgie rd eh11 said:

 

 

 He's an a******e. Scottish football is at war at a time it could and should have been uniting to combat a very difficult time. He's covered up and divided in his rush to award celtic the title. He's made a complete mess of the situation and should be sacked, how anyone can look at what has went on over the last couple of months and come to the conclusion this is someone i would employ. 

 

 

Sometimes you need an arsehole in some roles. Probably one of them 

[Seymour M Hersh]

11 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

He managed to administer Celtic a 9th title in a row. 

 

Just what his puppet-master wanted. 

 

Fair point. 

[Smoked-Glass]

1 minute ago, gavin1985 said:

That’s one thing I actually despise is this idea of having to play 3/4 times a season.

 

16 teams with 30 games in a season is enough for the UEFA requirement to get into Europe. Either way keep away from a split in any form! 
 

16 or 18 is my preferred choice. 14 with a stupid split is just another joke that is Scottish football. 

all proposed set ups must include 4 old firm games.    No Point in discussing anything that cuts that out.  

[Lord Beni of Gorgie]

13 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Can you give us examples of his excellent admin skills?

Scottish football rarely has logistic problems. 

 

Betfred last year,  but then that was simply old firm pressure as usual. 

 

The logical conclusion was met.

 

It's the political aspect people really don't like if we scrape it back 

[Jambo66]

15 minutes ago, Jamie3lb said:

You do know that’s not how court works? The judge doesn’t sit there and fire off a load of questions. Writ/Summons lodged>defences>adjustment period>record lodged (evidence can only be led from what’s in the record (final document with both side’s pleadings> evidential heading> witnesses give evidence>QC’s give legal submissions> Judge will take avizandum most likely> written Judgment issued. 
 

unless the case is won at debate (legal point/arguments), therefore case is won at that point and no evidence is led. 

Judges ask questions all the time. And yes, I do know how the courts work.

[Ethan Hunt]

13 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Not a rant at all. Let's not judge us all by our own emotions 

I’ll wait on the list.

[Sooperstar]

38 minutes ago, Ethan Hunt said:

Diplomacy and negation always works better.

 

If we held other clubs to ransom claiming we’d be unfairly treated could the clubs who weren’t against reconstruction, but still had their money frozen, not say the same?

 

This is about winning friends and influencing people at the moment. There’s a time and a place for tough action and we’re not quite there yet.

Diplomacy is pointless in my opinion. Scottish Football is all about self interest and it will take decades to change that. If we get reconstruction through then that will only be because of clubs looking after their own interests again...and trying to avoid legal challenges. They might dress it up as something else, but that will just be a facade.

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Scottish football rarely has logistic problems. 

 

Betfred last year,  but then that was simply old firm pressure as usual. 

 

The logical conclusion was met.

 

It's the political aspect people really don't like if we scrape it back 

 

You're giving the arsehole way too much credit for finally bowing to the massive pressure he was getting. The fact that he couldn't tell them to **** off and organise it properly is not the sign of a competent administrator. 

[graygo]

25 minutes ago, Restonbabe said:

That's the 1st proposal. Its very complex and all hinges on what exactly the govt are doing. Its looking like August at the earliest before we can even talk about sport up here in whatever form can restart. 

Training is being lobbied to the govt. For 10th June. However with furlough engulfing 99% of all clubs I cannot see how they can. It is effectively work isn't it 

 

Might get away with it, it's classed as training and doesn't earn money which is allowed.

[hibsarepants]

1 minute ago, Jambo66 said:

Judges ask questions all the time. And yes, I do know how the courts work.

From experience of a number of commercial litigations I would say we have a strong case , certainly > 50/50. The difficult issue might be establishing the quantum of damages.  Talk about 18 match leagues in 2021 only increases  that quantum. It certainly looks 7 figures , how high not sure. Whats clear though is that the SPFL Exec are clearly aware of the potential financial hole they are in - hence various pleadings.

[gorgie rd eh11]

6 minutes ago, Sir Gio said:

Sometimes you need an arsehole in some roles. Probably one of them 

 

 

Even if you agree with how everything has turned out you can't surely believe he's made anything other than a complete **** of it. He's incompetent at best. 

[Bourne Jambo]

6 minutes ago, Smoked-Glass said:

all proposed set ups must include 4 old firm games.    No Point in discussing anything that cuts that out.  

 

Just a quick question, why does there have to be 4 old firm games ?  2 is enough surely. Is there any league, anywhere, with a similar set up.  Bonkers.

[Jamie3lb]

8 minutes ago, Jambo66 said:

Judges ask questions all the time. And yes, I do know how the courts work.

The questions you posed would come out in evidence, examination in chief, cross examination and re-examination. 
 

Our QC would ask AB these questions 

[Riccarton3]

14 minutes ago, GinRummy said:

WHO recommended at least a metre from early on in the epidemic. Now we’re getting hopefully near the end, it would make sense to reduce it to a metre 

Don't you think it's a return to more herd immunity thinking now that the peak has passed? Feels cynical to me.

[Bunny Munro]

4 minutes ago, Bourne Jambo said:

 

Just a quick question, why does there have to be 4 old firm games ?  2 is enough surely. Is there any league, anywhere, with a similar set up.  Bonkers.

Because Sky says so.

Doncaster struggles to sell the league as it is.

[redjambo]

4 minutes ago, Bourne Jambo said:

 

Just a quick question, why does there have to be 4 old firm games ?  2 is enough surely. Is there any league, anywhere, with a similar set up.  Bonkers.

 

TV revenue. The broadcasters want it.

 

[GinRummy]

2 minutes ago, Riccarton3 said:

Don't you think it's a return to more herd immunity thinking now that the peak has passed? Feels cynical to me.

Don’t know enough about it to say mate. It’s hard to find a way out of the whole situation though. 

[One five]

5 hours ago, Gordon Ramsay said:

 

Me too, not quite Levein levels of respect loss but not something you can easily forget. 

Absolutely mate.

[Ethan Hunt]

14 minutes ago, Sooperstar said:

Diplomacy is pointless in my opinion. Scottish Football is all about self interest and it will take decades to change that. If we get reconstruction through then that will only be because of clubs looking after their own interests again...and trying to avoid legal challenges. They might dress it up as something else, but that will just be a facade.

We’ve taken the route of gunboat diplomacy. It’s all part of the game, and like the any game, the aim is to win.

[Fozzyonthefence]

26 minutes ago, gavin1985 said:

That’s one thing I actually despise is this idea of having to play 3/4 times a season.

 

16 teams with 30 games in a season is enough for the UEFA requirement to get into Europe. Either way keep away from a split in any form! 
 

16 or 18 is my preferred choice. 14 with a stupid split is just another joke that is Scottish football. 

14 actually works much better than 12 and the split guarantees equal home and away fixtures.

 

16 with 30 games would be a non starter as clubs lose revenue from 4 (or likely 4, you never know with current split) home games. I’ve seen a suggestion of splits with groups of 4 but that sounds unbelievably pish.

 

I like the idea of 18 and only playing everyone twice but don’t think we have enough big clubs for it (we had it before and it was a failure so it got scrapped) and only 34 games might be an issue for clubs.

 

We had a league of 10 in arguably Scottish football’s strongest decade in the 80’s but the clubs would never vote to reduce it to 10 again. 
 

So probably leaves 14 as the best option imo with splits of 7 and 7 or 6 and 8.  One thing for sure is the current set up is the worst we’ve ever had in the top division.  Beyond belief that the clubs voted for it and that some still think it works. What hope have we got when we’ve got morons running clubs that thought it was a good idea?

Edited May 22, 2020 by Fozzyonthefence

[Jambo66]

9 minutes ago, Jamie3lb said:

The questions you posed would come out in evidence, examination in chief, cross examination and re-examination. 
 

Our QC would ask AB these questions 

Our QC most certainly would not if that is the answer. The SPFL's QC might, but the notion that judges sit in silence until the very end suggests that your experience of court cases is somewhat limited.

[Beast Boy]

4 hours ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

Which is why the idiots should have been looking to condense the leagues from the outset and somehow spreading monies on a more equitable basis. Even then some clubs would inevitably fold but at least they could have given it their best shot. Everything was orchestrated to ensure the Mhanks got their grubby mitts on the title and sod everyone else.One of the most shameful episodes in Scottish Football and their has been many.

 

 

The SPFL Board were only interested in protecting Celtic’s interests and everyone else be damned. It’s an outrageous dereliction of their duty of care to all the SPFL Clubs. Frankly appalling.

[SE16 3LN]

2 hours ago, true-jambo said:

In other words a bit of leadership and vision, which we ought to be entitled to expect from a CEO being paid vast sums of money, to provide exactly that.

Yep

[Jambo66]

16 minutes ago, hibsarepants said:

From experience of a number of commercial litigations I would say we have a strong case , certainly > 50/50. The difficult issue might be establishing the quantum of damages.  Talk about 18 match leagues in 2021 only increases  that quantum. It certainly looks 7 figures , how high not sure. Whats clear though is that the SPFL Exec are clearly aware of the potential financial hole they are in - hence various pleadings.

I agree that we seem to have a good case. However, any compensation claim really is only there in case we lose the other arguments. The goal is to avoid expulsion, not to get compensated for it.

[Anything2]

2 minutes ago, Fozzyonthefence said:

14 actually works much better than 12 and the split guarantees equal home and away fixtures.

 

16 with 30 games would be a non starter as clubs lose revenue from 4 (or likely 4, you never with current split) home games. I’ve seen a suggestion of splits with groups of 4 but that sounds unbelievably pish.

 

I like the idea of 18 and only playing everyone twice but don’t think we have enough big clubs for it (we had it before and it was a failure so it got scrapped) and only 34 games might be an issue for clubs.

 

We had a league of 10 in arguably Scottish football’s strongest decade in the 80’s but the clubs would never vote to reduce it to 10 again. 
 

So probably leaves 14 as the best option imo with splits of 7 and 7 or 6 and 8.  One thing for sure is the current set up is the worst we’ve ever had in the top division.  Beyond belief that the clubs voted for it and that some still think it works. What hope have we got when we’ve got morons running clubs that thought it was a good idea?

I remember when the 12 team split was first reported as a possibility in the papers and I told all my mates that it would never happen as it's the stupidest format possible, playing some teams twice at home and other twice away sometimes 3 times if Rangers are needing an extra home game etc. The only worst format is Denmark who have 13 teams! 

[Jamie3lb]

3 minutes ago, Jambo66 said:

Our QC most certainly would not if that is the answer. The SPFL's QC might, but the notion that judges sit in silence until the very end suggests that your experience of court cases is somewhat limited.

I didn’t say they sit in silence. I guarantee my experience in court is certainly not somewhat limited. Hope we appear against each other and get a pint afterwards 😊

[redjambo]

3 minutes ago, Anything2 said:

I remember when the 12 team split was first reported as a possibility in the papers and I told all my mates that it would never happen as it's the stupidest format possible, playing some teams twice at home and other twice away sometimes 3 times if Rangers are needing an extra home game etc. The only worst format is Denmark who have 13 teams! 

 

I've never understood the opposition to leagues containing an odd number of teams. What do you have against them? When you're playing everyone twice anyway, it doesn't matter whether there are an even or an odd number of teams in the league. Or am I missing something?