Wage cut for players and staff (Statement on 24/4)

[Mikey1874]

7 minutes ago, DS98 said:

I’ve got sympathy with the players here. I’ve just been furloughed however luckily my employer is still giving me 100%. If I had to go down to 80% I would struggle. My wife is self employed and hasn’t had a wage in 5 weeks. There’s a common misconception that our players earn a fortune, live in mansions and all drive Range Rovers. The reality is that probably half of our squad make about the same as a well paid electrician. A lot of them don’t know if they will have a job in 2 months. Also with the exception of probably Naismith will probably have to work in a much lesser paid job once in their late 30s. They aren’t all die hard jambos like us, it’s a job and an income. 
 

What ever needs done to protect the club needs done. But I wouldn’t criticise the players for looking after themselves.

 

Well good luck to the players if there is no football till say March next year?

 

What will they do then? 

[Ibrahim Tall]

Just now, David McCaig said:

I would obviously expect the players to claim a government furlough payment... as long as Hearts aren’t paying them I don’t care.

 

My concern here is the survival of Hearts, I don’t give a shit about the players.

The players can’t claim to be furloughed if the club hasn’t actually furloughed them, Hearts need to make the first move here not the players.

[Dagger Is Back]

Feel for the players as I do with every other person employed or self employed who is seeing their income reduce. I'm self employed and will luckily, eventually get 80% from HMG to help us through. I've taken repayment holidays on financial products as have many many other people. These are options available to all.

 

It's a horrible situation we're all in and everyones situation is different and very personal. If I was a Hearts player though I'd be thinking do I want to earn 70-90% of my wages or not? If not, then that's my choice but my wifes question would be, where's the money coming from?

 

Daft question though and probably covered elsewhere, why can't the players be furloughed?

 

 

 

 

 

[Dagger Is Back]

2 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

I would obviously expect the players to claim a government furlough payment... as long as Hearts aren’t paying them I don’t care.

 

My concern here is the survival of Hearts, I don’t give a shit about the players.

 

Hearts submit the claim for employees> hearts pay the wages and then claim back from HMG

[David McCaig]

Just now, Ibrahim Tall said:

The players can’t claim to be furloughed if the club hasn’t actually furloughed them, Hearts need to make the first move here not the players.

The players should have been furloughed by the club on day 1.

 

As the shutdown continues, where do you think the money is coming from to pay the players?

[David McCaig]

Just now, Dagger Is Back said:

 

Hearts submit the claim for employees> hearts pay the wages and then claim back from HMG

That’s fair enough, as long as we are getting recompensed.  

[Leisham38]

Hearts have won 4 games all season and failed to perform for three different managers! In the game in Paisley that ultimately relegated us they had not a single shot on goal against a team paid way less than them.

I find it hard to shed too many tears for players taking a cut, folk way more committed to their jobs are suffering much worse than Hearts footballers 

[Dagger Is Back]

Just now, David McCaig said:

That’s fair enough, as long as we are getting recompensed.  

 

Yeah I furloughed the two girls that work for me. I've paid them and will get the money back from HMG within 6 days. I didn't have to pay them I could have waited until the money came in from HMG but I wanted to do the right thing as quickly as I could

 

 

[Mikey1874]

4 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

Feel for the players as I do with every other person employed or self employed who is seeing their income reduce. I'm self employed and will luckily, eventually get 80% from HMG to help us through. I've taken repayment holidays on financial products as have many many other people. These are options available to all.

 

It's a horrible situation we're all in and everyones situation is different and very personal. If I was a Hearts player though I'd be thinking do I want to earn 70-90% of my wages or not? If not, then that's my choice but my wifes question would be, where's the money coming from?

 

Daft question though and probably covered elsewhere, why can't the players be furloughed?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The issue with furlough is its limited to £577 per week. 

 

Hearts pay a lot more than that to players. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

Just now, David McCaig said:

The players should have been furloughed by the club on day 1.

 

As the shutdown continues, where do you think the money is coming from to pay the players?

 

You’re arguing with yourself here..

I haven’t once stated wage cuts, furloughing and cost reductions aren’t necessary from a ‘Hearts’ perspective. Its up to Hearts to make the hard decisions though(and take any flak that comes with them), not expect it’s employees to voluntarily fix the situation for them or blackmail them by media.

[Mikey1874]

5 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

The players should have been furloughed by the club on day 1.

 

As the shutdown continues, where do you think the money is coming from to pay the players?

 

Furlough limited to maximum of £2500 per month which is £577 per week. 

 

Who pays the rest?

[Gordon Ramsay]

4 minutes ago, Leisham38 said:

Hearts have won 4 games all season and failed to perform for three different managers! In the game in Paisley that ultimately relegated us they had not a single shot on goal against a team paid way less than them.

I find it hard to shed too many tears for players taking a cut, folk way more committed to their jobs are suffering much worse than Hearts footballers 

 

That's the way see it. 

[Ibrahim Tall]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The issue with furlough is its limited to £577 per week. 

 

Hearts pay a lot more than that to players. 

Not all. Naismith/Boyce etc are paid silly money yes but most of the younger players aren’t. Using the scheme for them, coaching staff, admin/office staff etc alone would save the club a large amount.

For those over, yes wage reductions/free transfers etc are the best option.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Ibrahim Tall

[JimmyCant]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Furlough limited to maximum of £2500 per month which is £577 per week. 

 

Who pays the rest?

No one. They don’t get the rest. Just like 10 million other people furloughed on 80%. The 20% and anything above £2500 is lost unless your employer covers some or all of it.

 

Not sure if football contracts mean that they can’t be furloughed though. Otherwise why isn’t every club doing it ?

Edited April 24, 2020 by JimmyCant

[kingantti1874]

They should be bloody delighted with  a 10/30% cut..  I have many colleagues who are contract and have been let go, with no protection, no income of any kind and little prospect of finding alternative employment.. 

[MoreSaltThanPepper]

7 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Furlough limited to maximum of £2500 per month which is £577 per week. 

 

Who pays the rest?

Nobody has to pay the rest, but many Employers are topping up some or all of what Employee's are losing.

[David McCaig]

8 minutes ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

 

You’re arguing with yourself here..

I haven’t once stated wage cuts, furloughing and cost reductions aren’t necessary from a ‘Hearts’ perspective. Its up to Hearts to make the hard decisions though(and take any flak that comes with them), not expect it’s employees to voluntarily fix the situation for them or blackmail them by media.

How are the club asking the players to voluntarily fix things.  The club have made the 30% decision and are now having to chase the players up for confirmation... personally I hope the players say no and get nothing other than government furlough.

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, JimmyCant said:

No one. They don’t get the rest. Just like 10 million other people furloughed on 80%. The 20% and anything above £2500 is fine unless your employer covers some or all of it.

 

Not sure if football contracts mean that they can’t be furloughed though. Otherwise why isn’t every club doing it ?

 

Hearts are going to furlough the players. As have lots of clubs.

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/an-update-from-our-chairman

[jr ewing]

32 minutes ago, PapaShango said:

Correct they will only be looking out for themselves and have bills to pay like the rest of us. I have had to take a 20% cut with no option on whether I'm accepting it or not, just told it's that or your job pretty much. 

They are on shorter contracts though. 

[Whatever]

42 minutes ago, DS98 said:

I’ve got sympathy with the players here. I’ve just been furloughed however luckily my employer is still giving me 100%. If I had to go down to 80% I would struggle. My wife is self employed and hasn’t had a wage in 5 weeks. There’s a common misconception that our players earn a fortune, live in mansions and all drive Range Rovers. The reality is that probably half of our squad make about the same as a well paid electrician. A lot of them don’t know if they will have a job in 2 months. Also with the exception of probably Naismith will probably have to work in a much lesser paid job once in their late 30s. They aren’t all die hard jambos like us, it’s a job and an income. 
 

What ever needs done to protect the club needs done. But I wouldn’t criticise the players for looking after themselves.

I’ve been better off on 80% in lockdown than I was on 100% before lockdown.

 

No Hearts, pub or bookies so I can’t spend my feckin money. 🙃

[FERRY HEARTS]

39 minutes ago, Dagger Is Back said:

Feel for the players as I do with every other person employed or self employed who is seeing their income reduce. I'm self employed and will luckily, eventually get 80% from HMG to help us through. I've taken repayment holidays on financial products as have many many other people. These are options available to all.

 

It's a horrible situation we're all in and everyones situation is different and very personal. If I was a Hearts player though I'd be thinking do I want to earn 70-90% of my wages or not? If not, then that's my choice but my wifes question would be, where's the money coming from?

 

Daft question though and probably covered elsewhere, why can't the players be furloughed?

 

 

 

 

 

Don’t know what the average player gets paid  but my belief in the furlough scheme is if you earn 50 Grand a year your not entitled to any help 

I presume most of our established players would be on £1000 per week ?

[Hairdryer]

If we are legally allowed to do this

then I am all for it as most of them have not been performing for the over inflated wage 

[Pasquale for King]

49 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Furlough limited to maximum of £2500 per month which is £577 per week. 

 

Who pays the rest?

Legally we don’t have to do we? If £2500 a month  isn’t enough to live on without having to pay a mortgage and only food to buy then they need a reality check.

[OTT]

Saw some posts on Twitter which suggests this is because there are still hold outs on the wage cut front so its kinda a last opportunity to see sense or lose everything with Section 12. Another post was saying that we would be shocked how many are refusing to take a cut. 

 

Obviously taking what some random says behind an anonymous account on social media as gospel is daft, but it doesn't seem to far fetched. 

 

Personally, considering the circumstances regular people are being put under - losing 20% of your wage if your employer won't cover it, contractors losing their jobs and not having any income etc. I'm really disgusted with the selfishness of the players. 

 

We're not owned by a billionaire, these savings aren't going to line anyones pockets. The cuts will no doubt help us lurch through this period. Top up office and shop staffs wages, pay suppliers. The players have an incredibly easy life. To see this after the season they have delivered with us facing relegation through their ineptitude and still they won't do right by the club (even out of shame) is really, really poor. 

 

If the list got leaked then i'm sure it would help identify who is actually buying into the club, versus who is here because they couldn't get something else. 

[David McCaig]

Just now, OTT said:

Saw some posts on Twitter which suggests this is because there are still hold outs on the wage cut front so its kinda a last opportunity to see sense or lose everything with Section 12. Another post was saying that we would be shocked how many are refusing to take a cut. 

 

Obviously taking what some random says behind an anonymous account on social media as gospel is daft, but it doesn't seem to far fetched. 

 

Personally, considering the circumstances regular people are being put under - losing 20% of your wage if your employer won't cover it, contractors losing their jobs and not having any income etc. I'm really disgusted with the selfishness of the players. 

 

We're not owned by a billionaire, these savings aren't going to line anyones pockets. The cuts will no doubt help us lurch through this period. Top up office and shop staffs wages, pay suppliers. The players have an incredibly easy life. To see this after the season they have delivered with us facing relegation through their ineptitude and still they won't do right by the club (even out of shame) is really, really poor. 

 

If the list got leaked then i'm sure it would help identify who is actually buying into the club, versus who is here because they couldn't get something else. 

Is it wrong to want the players to say no and be clause 12’d instead?

[Pasquale for King]

15 minutes ago, FERRY HEARTS said:

Don’t know what the average player gets paid  but my belief in the furlough scheme is if you earn 50 Grand a year your not entitled to any help 

I presume most of our established players would be on £1000 per week ?

£138k is our average, you can claim up to £2500 a month. If you normally get paid more than that that’s tough. They can take a pay cut now, be furloughed too or we could use article 12 and not pay them at all. Next pay day is due soon.

[OTT]

Just now, David McCaig said:

Is it wrong to want the players to say no and be clause 12’d instead?

 

I want them to. So. So. Badly. 

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

Interesting that there’s no mention of using the furlough scheme for the players, it’s take the cut or clause 12. 

[Mikey1874]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Interesting that there’s no mention of using the furlough scheme for the players, it’s take the cut or clause 12. 

 

Not mentioned today but was stated previously.

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/an-update-from-our-chairman

[FERRY HEARTS]

10 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

£138k is our average, you can claim up to £2500 a month. If you normally get paid more than that that’s tough. They can take a pay cut now, be furloughed too or we could use article 12 and not pay them at all. Next pay day is due soon.

You can only claim £2500 a month if you earn less than 50 grand mate 

I think the players should take the proposed cut which most will IMO. Or they can GTF

 

[Cade]

There is no talk of the furlough because every player has a different contract and sportspeople fall into a strange category of their own in employment law.

Somewhere between a contractor providing services for the football club and an actual employee.

Normal employees could use the furlough scheme.

 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Not mentioned today but was stated previously.

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/an-update-from-our-chairman

Cheers,  I remember it now, so it would be a cut whilst using the furlough scheme or clause 12.

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Gashauskis9 said:

People are dying, most people can’t hug their families, people are losing jobs and livelihoods.

 

This is a minimum step imo.  Personally, I would have liked to have seen us cut deeper, but fair play to Ann for trying to retain some balance.  Still a far better proposition than wage deferrals.  

 

Would you have started a post with that two years ago? I only ask because people were dying in the UK then as well  about 50-60k per month. 

[Pasquale for King]

1 minute ago, FERRY HEARTS said:

You can only claim £2500 a month if you earn less than 50 grand mate 

I think the players should take the proposed cut which most will IMO. Or they can GTF

 

I can’t see anything starting a £50k ceiling, it seems to be for everyone?The UK government website just says up to £2500 a month.  Budge has said they will be furloughed in a earlier statement.  if you can’t live off that with mortgage holidays and financial breaks you’ve got a problem. 

[gashauskis9]

1 minute ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Would you have started a post with that two years ago? I only ask because people were dying in the UK then as well  about 50-60k per month. 

Two years ago football hadn't shut down indefinitely.  The point was a relative one to do with sacrifices we're observing at the moment, so to answer your question, no I wouldn't have.

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Gashauskis9 said:

Yep, and we'll be regretting not cutting back sooner.

 

She tried but was met by a barrage of media disgust and aggression. Which probably emboldened the players (some) and agents (all) to prevaricate. 

[gashauskis9]

Just now, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

She tried but was met by a barrage of media disgust and aggression. Which probably emboldened the players (some) and agents (all) to prevaricate. 

Yep, it's a shit show.

[Mikey1874]

9 minutes ago, Cade said:

There is no talk of the furlough because every player has a different contract and sportspeople fall into a strange category of their own in employment law.

Somewhere between a contractor providing services for the football club and an actual employee.

Normal employees could use the furlough scheme.

 

 

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/an-update-from-our-chairman

 

Hearts and other clubs are using furlough.

[husref musemic]

1 hour ago, RENE said:

I don't think they did refuse. This is AB now officially asking them to decide and sign letter or form

AB on the 3rd of April hoped it would concluded shortly. Naismith had already agreed to 50%. 

I'm sure they could have agreed something since (good PR etc) but have sat on their backsides, i assume trying to wait it out.

[SectionDJambo]

I think the discussion on here has, once again, exposed the huge disconnect between the current players and the fans. The only ones to blame for that are the players. The fans aren't blind. They see what players are trying to do, and they see what they aren't doing, on the field. I still think that the after match reaction of the fans at Paisley, was the worst reaction to a Hearts team, in my lifetime of supporting Hearts since the 60s. Most of our team have looked like they don't care very much this season. 4 wins.

So when we come to a situation like this, very few fans are going to have any sympathy for a group of players that they feel have let them down, for lack of effort and desire,  the two things that any Hearts team should always have.

For the wages Hearts pay, and the lack of reliance on bonuses that we are told these players have in their contracts, the club should have got much more back in performance than it did. Strange how our cup record has improved, when we hear that bonuses are good for progress.

Other clubs in Scotland,  with a much lower basic wage and healthy bonuses, would find it much easier to defer wages, though still taking a huge risk. We shouldn't be compared with teams with a wage structure like that, given that we would suffer much more long term financial damage than them.

[Guest ToqueJambo]

1 hour ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

So your mentioning they’re apparently no different to any other ‘furloughed employees’ then threatening ‘zero wages’ the next? The Furloughed scheme itself covers 80% of up to £2,500 a month, that alone would cover most of the younger players. 
 

If e.g. your mortgage, car payments etc and other necessary monthly outgoings are £3k a month and you get paid £3,200 a month you can hardly be expected to rush to take a 30% wage cut. Particularly if your contract is up in a matter of months and theres no guarantee of finding a new club/source of income with football suspended. It’s the SPFL not the EPL, not every player is sitting with thousands in the bank for a rainy day.

 

Every person who works contract to contract should have an emergency fund in an easy to access savings account for at least 6 months of bills. If you have even just an average salary that's very easy to do with minimal or no impact on your lifestyle. If you don't, you've been badly advised or are irresponsible with your money. 

[East Lothian Jambo]

She's absolutely right. Deferrals aren't an option 

 

Some clubs have a real problem where wage deferral arrangements are in place 

[husref musemic]

1 hour ago, Ibrahim Tall said:

So your mentioning they’re apparently no different to any other ‘furloughed employees’ then threatening ‘zero wages’ the next? The Furloughed scheme itself covers 80% of up to £2,500 a month, that alone would cover most of the younger players. 
 

If e.g. your mortgage, car payments etc and other necessary monthly outgoings are £3k a month and you get paid £3,200 a month you can hardly be expected to rush to take a 30% wage cut. Particularly if your contract is up in a matter of months and theres no guarantee of finding a new club/source of income with football suspended. It’s the SPFL not the EPL, not every player is sitting with thousands in the bank for a rainy day.

(footballers) if you've not got any money for a rainy day then your an idiot. if you run out of money all the time as your lifestyle burns it every month your an idiot.

if during a pandemic (& poorly poorly performing) your offered 80% of your normal wage & you refuse, your an idiot & deserve everything coming your way. 

 

if you ever catch the players pulling up in there cars pre match (& the holiday snaps) there's no penny pinching or low salaries at tynecastle.

 

[Paint the town maroon]

She should have sorted this by now like other clubs have. 6 weeks and still

not agreed. 

[Mikey1874]

1 minute ago, Paint the town maroon said:

She should have sorted this by now like other clubs have. 6 weeks and still

not agreed. 

 

Like every other club, we paid April's wage in full. 

 

So like every other club we are reducing wages from now. 

[1874robbo]

Very good statement.

[SectionDJambo]

3 minutes ago, Paint the town maroon said:

She should have sorted this by now like other clubs have. 6 weeks and still

not agreed. 

Only has to be sorted before this months' pay day. Other clubs have agreed the nonsensical deferral system, which players bit their hands off for. Not hard.

[redtipsjambo]

My understanding of the furlough scheme is that once you are on it you cannot do any work for that company, therefore, I would imagine that the players would not be doing any personal training or dietary plan arranged by Hearts as it would break the furlough.

[Mikey1874]

Just now, redtipsjambo said:

My understanding of the furlough scheme is that once you are on it you cannot do any work for that company, therefore, I would imagine that the players would not be doing any personal training or dietary plan arranged by Hearts as it would break the furlough.

 

That is correct. And no work for the club. Unlike Aberdeen who have their players selling season tickets by cold calling. 

[Selkirkhmfc1874]

10 minutes ago, husref musemic said:

(footballers) if you've not got any money for a rainy day then your an idiot. if you run out of money all the time as your lifestyle burns it every month your an idiot.

if during a pandemic (& poorly poorly performing) your offered 80% of your normal wage & you refuse, your an idiot & deserve everything coming your way. 

 

if you ever catch the players pulling up in there cars pre match (& the holiday snaps) there's no penny pinching or low salaries at tynecastle.

 

Exactly! People I feel sorry for in these times are the minimum wage workers etc not the highly paid underachiervers we've had the misfortune of watching