They Can't Relegate Us (Legally)

[Doc Rob]

Have been thinking about this a fair bit.

 

The SFA and SPFL will be desperate for one thing above all else - to give the appearance of not favouring one of the Uglies over the other one. This is why they will be absolutely desperate for the season to be finished - somehow - so that they don’t have to award Celtic the title without playing all the games (which they would more or less have to do). Past experience suggests they won’t give a damn about us, United, or any other team that stands to lose or gain from an early finish.

 

The problem, obviously, is that we have no idea how long it might be before games can recommence. When they do, clubs will need some warning to get players back fit and prepare for matches. If the season has been left unfinished, what happens after the remaining 8 games are played? Do we shut down again? If not, then we’re expecting maybe a quarter of the clubs in Scotland to prepare for a new season without knowing what division they will be in, or what their budget will be, and without having a chance to sign players.  Even though we know the authorities only care about two clubs, this would create utter chaos and I just can’t see it happening.

 

I can’t see league restructuring happening, simply because it wouldn’t fix the authorities’ biggest problem, which is that they daren’t declare Celtic the champions.

 

I’m increasingly sure they will declare the season void, because it’s the only outcome (save for playing all the remaining games) that makes their problem go away. Yes, Celtic fans would be angry, but if they take the line ‘we can’t finish this season and the only fair solution is to scrap it and start again’ then it will be difficult for them to argue. They could even cite the 1914 season as precedent. Generous to us, harsh on the likes of United, but they won’t care about that and I suspect it would be the easiest decision to defend legally.

 

If the season does get voided, there’s nothing to stop them reconstructing the league for when it recommences, either temporarily or permanently. It might suit them to play a shortened season depending on when games restart. But I can’t see the SPFL having the stones to award Celtic the title, and I can’t see any other realistic way out for them.

[RENE]

It's typical of the SPFL.  Can't make a decision or won't. They'll be waiting on UEFA telling them what to do and take the heat of them.

[Italian Lambretta]

Just now, RENE said:

It's typical of the SPFL.  Can't make a decision or won't. They'll be waiting on UEFA telling them what to do and take the heat of them.

Do you really think this will matter in a couple of weeks when the body bags start piling up? 

[Doc Rob]

5 minutes ago, Italian Lambretta said:

Do you really think this will matter in a couple of weeks when the body bags start piling up? 

In the grand scheme of things? Of course it won’t. But the current situation won’t last forever. Eventually we will return to some semblance of normal, and when that happens people will expect normal things to restart, one of those being football. So they will have to make a plan of some sort.

 

Hoping for UEFA to make a ruling is an angle I hadn’t thought of. I suspect they will say it’s up to the individual leagues though.

[frankblack]

The government are talking about 12 weeks of self isolation before they can review and consider relaxing SOME restrictions, and big public events like football will be well down on the list of items getting relaxed due to the number of punters.

 

This means that the current season timetable will have been missed and player contracts will be expired leaving them free agents.  Then they need to have a pre-season to get players up to fitness to start again, which draws the obvious conclusion that doing pre-season would be best for a new season where transfer business can be done first.

 

I think September looks more likely than August before they could consider starting football again.

 

I've got a couple of events in June and July and those look to have zero chance of happening, so why some people think football can start is crazy.  Considering they have to get next season finished before the Euros I hardly think that they have time to play out this one as well after August.

 

Voiding the current season is really the only option, and I suspect some competitions like the League Cup will have to be dropped next season to complete fixtures.

[Unknown user]

The only thing I'm sure of, assuming we come out of this ok, is that Hearts won't be relegated without completing the league season.

At the end of the day, the SPFL know we'd challenge it in the courts, and they know that we have more people willing to chip in for lawyers than them.

They're skint, they don't want us mobilising against them.

[martoon]

Finish the current campaign from whenever to Christmas. That way it would be complete, beyond reproach and would still, technically, be the 2019/20 season. 

 

Then, start the new campaign in late Feb/March and play at least two seasons (2021 and 2022) over calendar years. This would fit in with the Qatar World Cup at the end of 2022.

 

After that, retain the calendar season, if popular/successful, or revert back to normal for 2023/24. 

 

There would be Euro 21 to work around and the first 6 months of 2023 would, potentially, need filled but nothing is insurmountable. 

 

Best back of a fag packet solution I can come up with that includes completing this season. 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, martoon said:

Finish the current campaign from whenever to Christmas. That way it would be complete, beyond reproach and would still, technically, be the 2019/20 season. 

 

Then, start the new campaign in late Feb/March and play at least two seasons (2021 and 2022) over calendar years. This would fit in with the Qatar World Cup at the end of 2022.

 

After that, retain the calendar season, if popular/successful, or revert back to normal for 2023/24. 

 

There would be Euro 21 to work around and the first 6 months of 2023 would, potentially, need filled but nothing is insurmountable. 

 

Best back of a fag packet solution I can come up with that includes completing this season. 

 

Non starter of a solution.  Too many people trying to make unrealistic proposals to keep Celtic or Sevco happy.

 

What squads are supposed to complete the season when player contracts will have expired?

 

Theoretically we could sign half a team of star players and blitz the remainder of the season to stay up and relegate someone like Hamilton, who would protest.

 

The only solution is to void this season and plan for next season, possibly being prepared to drop the league cup if necessary to complete league fixtures.

[CJGJ]

Finish the season

 

Then a 22 match season 20/21 if the season cannot start until nearer Christmas (if you wanted slightly more matches should it be possible to start in say October then at that point you go into top 6 and bottom 6 mode after 22 matches)

 

Simple and straightforward

 

There is no ideal solution but a finish to the season is the right point at which to start

 

If the season is to be incomplete then we can look at all those 14 team ideas etc but if not then keep it simple...you could even make it one up and one down that short season if you wanted to

[frankblack]

12 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Finish the season

 

Then a 22 match season 20/21 if the season cannot start until nearer Christmas (if you wanted slightly more matches should it be possible to start in say October then at that point you go into top 6 and bottom 6 mode after 22 matches)

 

Simple and straightforward

 

There is no ideal solution but a finish to the season is the right point at which to start

 

If the season is to be incomplete then we can look at all those 14 team ideas etc but if not then keep it simple...you could even make it one up and one down that short season if you wanted to

 

Finish a season that hasn't kicked a ball for nearly a year - that is ridiculous.

 

Clubs will need to regroup, take stock of their finances and squads once this is all over and start again, which should be a fresh season.

 

You are talking about then having a calendar league system but that would be broken by summer tournaments like the Euros with clubs losing players on international duty.  That is nonsense and we need to be aligned with club dates for European competitions or clubs end up gettiing caught cold.

[Agentjambo]

24 minutes ago, CJGJ said:

Finish the season

 

Then a 22 match season 20/21 if the season cannot start until nearer Christmas (if you wanted slightly more matches should it be possible to start in say October then at that point you go into top 6 and bottom 6 mode after 22 matches)

 

Simple and straightforward

 

There is no ideal solution but a finish to the season is the right point at which to start

 

If the season is to be incomplete then we can look at all those 14 team ideas etc but if not then keep it simple...you could even make it one up and one down that short season if you wanted to

When are we going to get back playing to allow us to finish this season?

[CJGJ]

9 minutes ago, Agentjambo said:

When are we going to get back playing to allow us to finish this season?

Well there's a question..perhaps you know ?

[Doc Rob]

1 hour ago, CJGJ said:

Finish the season

 

Then a 22 match season 20/21 if the season cannot start until nearer Christmas (if you wanted slightly more matches should it be possible to start in say October then at that point you go into top 6 and bottom 6 mode after 22 matches)

 

Simple and straightforward

 

There is no ideal solution but a finish to the season is the right point at which to start

 

If the season is to be incomplete then we can look at all those 14 team ideas etc but if not then keep it simple...you could even make it one up and one down that short season if you wanted to

Players’ contracts will expire. Clubs will

have to recruit in order to field a team to complete the season. You can’t do that if you don’t know what division you will be playing in after the 8 games have been played. I just can’t see any practical way this can be made to work, now that football is suspended indefinitely. The choice will be to void the season or to declare it over.

[DETTY29]

John Hartson's view that Rangers should be the bigger club and agree to give Celtic the league doesn't half have some challenges.

 

Celtic get another title

9 in a row

Pushes them up to 52, I think.

Gives them clear access to next Champions League.

 

However

Rangers fans will say its an asterix title and the continuity of an 'in the row'

 

 

But if Rangers and other clubs demand the season is seen out and this doesn't happen till late 2020 then do we go for a shortened season or a full  season split over 2 years?

 

Rangers have shown in the last 2 years they can compete for the initial set of home and away fixtures

 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, DETTY29 said:

John Hartson's view that Rangers should be the bigger club and agree to give Celtic the league doesn't half have some challenges.

 

Celtic get another title

9 in a row

Pushes them up to 52, I think.

Gives them clear access to next Champions League.

 

However

Rangers fans will say its an asterix title and the continuity of an 'in the row'

 

 

But if Rangers and other clubs demand the season is seen out and this doesn't happen till late 2020 then do we go for a shortened season or a full  season split over 2 years?

 

Rangers have shown in the last 2 years they can compete for the initial set of home and away fixtures

 

 

It shouldn't matter what number this brings Celtic's title haul to as it has no bearing on Sevco who have won no major trophies in their history.

[Bellion]

51 minutes ago, Doc Rob said:

Players’ contracts will expire. Clubs will

have to recruit in order to field a team to complete the season. You can’t do that if you don’t know what division you will be playing in after the 8 games have been played. I just can’t see any practical way this can be made to work, now that football is suspended indefinitely. The choice will be to void the season or to declare it over.

That’s how the clubs will see it, but given how odd this year is going to be, I would be very surprised if there wasn’t an adjustment to the rules on transfer windows. I think UEFA will want as many league as possible to finish, and they’ll implement rules which help facilitate that. If there’s any realistic prospect of 19/20 being finished before late summer/autumn, they might well want to stop clubs from registering new players before it’s done.
 

Changing those rules might make it easier for clubs to agree short term extensions and then get rid of players at short notice. It’s not ideal, but there is no good solution, let alone an ideal one. 

[frankblack]

23 minutes ago, Bellion said:

That’s how the clubs will see it, but given how odd this year is going to be, I would be very surprised if there wasn’t an adjustment to the rules on transfer windows. I think UEFA will want as many league as possible to finish, and they’ll implement rules which help facilitate that. If there’s any realistic prospect of 19/20 being finished before late summer/autumn, they might well want to stop clubs from registering new players before it’s done.
 

Changing those rules might make it easier for clubs to agree short term extensions and then get rid of players at short notice. It’s not ideal, but there is no good solution, let alone an ideal one. 

 

UEFA can't stop contracts expiring in June and clubs can't stop players walking away.  There is slim to no chance of a ball being kicked before August at an optimistic best case.

 

Clubs can't renew contracts when cashflow is uncertain with no guaranteed date of fixtures resuming.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

It shouldn't matter what number this brings Celtic's title haul to as it has no bearing on Sevco who have won no major trophies in their history.

👍

[Doc Rob]

Actually, I could see one possible other solution, but it would be hard to implement. It would involve playing to a finish, but with an immediate restructuring of the leagues, meaning no relegation. The trouble is that everyone needs to know what division they will be in, so how do you manage promotion from the lower leagues? You would have to award it based on current standings, making finishing the league pointless and contentious. You might get away with it providing you promoted more teams than would have been expected, but it would still be messy. It would, however, mean they could determine who won the title and not have to cancel the season, which we know is the most important thing.

[Bellion]

27 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

UEFA can't stop contracts expiring in June and clubs can't stop players walking away.  There is slim to no chance of a ball being kicked before August at an optimistic best case.

 

Clubs can't renew contracts when cashflow is uncertain with no guaranteed date of fixtures resuming.

Agreed, they can’t stop contracts expiring and clubs can’t compel anyone to extend who doesn’t want to. But theoretically, the authorities could stop new registrations, and that might encourage players to stay put in the short term. 
 

Let’s say the EPL, La Liga and Serie A all say they want to complete their seasons. UEFA won’t want to stop them. I’d say it’s likely that those seasons will be finished on the basis that only currently registered players can play “this” season. That will have a trickle down effect on players in other leagues.
 

I can’t disagree with your timings. It’s all massively uncertain. All I’m saying is that IF we get to later in the summer and it’s decided that European leagues can finish by the autumn (huge if), I think UEFA might do what they can to encourage short term contract extensions.
 

It might not work, and the consequence might be that poorer leagues like the Scottish Prem don’t finish and have to get called null and void. 

Edited March 22, 2020 by Bellion

[frankblack]

20 minutes ago, Bellion said:

Agreed, they can’t stop contracts expiring and clubs can’t compel anyone to extend who doesn’t want to. But theoretically, the authorities could stop new registrations, and that might encourage players to stay put in the short term. 
 

Let’s say the EPL, La Liga and Serie A all say they want to complete their seasons. UEFA won’t want to stop them. I’d say it’s likely that those seasons will be finished on the basis that only currently registered players can play “this” season. That will have a trickle down effect on players in other leagues.
 

I can’t disagree with your timings. It’s all massively uncertain. All I’m saying is that IF we get to later in the summer and it’s decided that European leagues can finish by the autumn (huge if), I think UEFA might do what they can to encourage short term contract extensions.
 

It might not work, and the consequence might be that poorer leagues like the Scottish Prem don’t finish and have to get called null and void. 

 

You can't force players to stay at a club when they can agree a pre contract with another.

 

Perhaps you should read about a Belgian called Jesn-Marc Bosman.

[smiler]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Perhaps you should read about a Belgian called Jesn-Marc Bosman.

I always thought he was called Jean-Marc. 

[Bellion]

6 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You can't force players to stay at a club when they can agree a pre contract with another.

 

Perhaps you should read about a Belgian called Jesn-Marc Bosman.

I’m not saying you can. The first line of the post you quoted says clubs can’t do that. 

[OldGorgie]

Some of the posts makes you wonder how many have actually seen us play this season. Reality is we have not been able to beat teams in bottom six, even when playing at home. Spectacular wins against Hibs and Rangers can’t hide that.

[eezyrider]

6 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

Yes but I’m not sure a club finishing 3rd or 4th in the championship have ever got through the play-offs so it’s not a strong bargaining position they have. 

Except for Hamilton. How could you have forgotten that?

 

 

Edited March 22, 2020 by eezyrider

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, eezyrider said:

Except for Hamilton. How could you have forgotten that?

 

 

Thought they finished 2nd but happy to be proved wrong. Who did they beat in the play-off final? 

[soonbe110]

57 minutes ago, Bellion said:

Agreed, they can’t stop contracts expiring and clubs can’t compel anyone to extend who doesn’t want to. But theoretically, the authorities could stop new registrations, and that might encourage players to stay put in the short term. 
 

Let’s say the EPL, La Liga and Serie A all say they want to complete their seasons. UEFA won’t want to stop them. I’d say it’s likely that those seasons will be finished on the basis that only currently registered players can play “this” season. That will have a trickle down effect on players in other leagues.
 

I can’t disagree with your timings. It’s all massively uncertain. All I’m saying is that IF we get to later in the summer and it’s decided that European leagues can finish by the autumn (huge if), I think UEFA might do what they can to encourage short term contract extensions.
 

It might not work, and the consequence might be that poorer leagues like the Scottish Prem don’t finish and have to get called null and void. 

If we don’t start again until autumn there won’t be enough teams left in Scotland for one league never mind four. 

[eezyrider]

9 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Thought they finished 2nd but happy to be proved wrong. Who did they beat in the play-off final? 

Okay they did end up second. Thought it was 3rd.

I'm sure you know the highlighted part though.

Edited March 22, 2020 by eezyrider

[soonbe110]

6 hours ago, Taffin said:

I don't get why you would start another season until the previous one was finished. Surely the talk should be around when the next league will be able to start based on when we get this one finished. Whenever we can play again, we finish this season then consider when to start the next one.

So that’s two seasons destroyed? 

[soonbe110]

4 minutes ago, eezyrider said:

Okay they did end up second. Thought it was 3rd.

I'm sure you know the highlighted part though.

Never tire of talking about it though. 

[karipidis]

5 hours ago, eezyrider said:

Except for Hamilton. How could you have forgotten that?

 

 

Pretty sure Livi did it a couple of years ago. 
 

Edit. They finished 2nd as well, so looks like it hasn’t happened before. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by karipidis

[Clerry Jambo]

More articles this morning from different  papers suggesting league will be finished and cellic champs with us going down. 1 report saying Budge knows this and won’t go to court and that’s why the 50% stuff came out early. Sorry can’t link at the mo

[Dazo]

Can people stop wasting their time trying to dream up proposals of how to finish the league past June. With even the smallest hint of sporting integrity in mind this season cannot be finished after player contracts have expired and the transfer window has reopened. It’s that simple, why on earth do you think no decision has been made ? The only reason they haven’t voided it already is because of the Celtic/Rangers title argument. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

11 minutes ago, Dazo said:

Can people stop wasting their time trying to dream up proposals of how to finish the league past June. With even the smallest hint of sporting integrity in mind this season cannot be finished after player contracts have expired and the transfer window has reopened. It’s that simple, why on earth do you think no decision has been made ? The only reason they haven’t voided it already is because of the Celtic/Rangers title argument. 

 

Other leagues have not yet declared either.

I think its because they want to be seen (at least) to give the opportunity for the season to be played out,

Once that is impossible (to complete by the end of June) then the season will be called I think.

[Dazo]

1 minute ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Other leagues have not yet declared either.

I think its because they want to be seen (at least) to give the opportunity for the season to be played out,

Once that is impossible (to complete by the end of June) then the season will be called I think.

Many contracts end before the end of June. We haven’t touched the sides of this thing yet, we aren’t playing football in May. 

[DETTY29]

48 minutes ago, Clerry Jambo said:

More articles this morning from different  papers suggesting league will be finished and cellic champs with us going down. 1 report saying Budge knows this and won’t go to court and that’s why the 50% stuff came out early. Sorry can’t link at the mo

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/scottish-premiership/celtic-will-be-champions-and-hearts-will-get-relegated-says-roger-mitchell-2505009

 

https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Sport/Football/SPFL/Scottish+Premiership

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by DETTY29

[IveSeenTheLight]

1 minute ago, Dazo said:

Many contracts end before the end of June. We haven’t touched the sides of this thing yet, we aren’t playing football in May. 

 

I agree, I don't think that that the season will complete, but they are simply giving the perception that their giving it an opportunity.

The end of June is more aligned to the European structure and whilst I understand the Scottish structure has contracts completing at the end of May, it gives a potential option for a short term extension till the end of June.

 

I still don't think there will be any progress, so once the time frame becomes such that they cannot complete the season by the end of June, they'll declare.

 

 

[Gambo]

12 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/scottish-premiership/celtic-will-be-champions-and-hearts-will-get-relegated-says-roger-mitchell-2505009

 

https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Sport/Football/SPFL/Scottish+Premiership

 

It would be demotion, not relegation.

 

I would want Ann to fight this all the way.

 

Many would be finished with football imo.

 

[DETTY29]

2 minutes ago, Barack said:

He's a dick. But I think we're deep down getting ready for this reality.

 

I am. 

Imo

 

Season cant finish and will not be determined null and void.

 

At best they may do some form of 'critical' play off that we won't be in because of the 4 point gap.

[Heartsofgold]

Given the current situation, and despite how much I love Hearts, I could give a flying **** about football right now.  I'm more worried about keeping my family safe and wondering if I'm going to have a job at the end of this shite.

[stuart500]

I would be happy for FoH contributions to go towards a legal challenge. We have an excellent case IMO and must NOT allow ourselves to be demoted simply as a convenience to others.

 

As already mentioned above this would be the final straw for many. 

[IveSeenTheLight]

2 minutes ago, Heartsofgold said:

Given the current situation, and despite how much I love Hearts, I could give a flying **** about football right now.  I'm more worried about keeping my family safe and wondering if I'm going to have a job at the end of this shite.

 

Very, very true and I hope everyone gets through this as best they can.

If we all socially distance ourselves, then hopefully it helps get past this quicker.

 

I'd expect the time frame of reverting back to normal to be deliberately stretched to ease us all back into society and limit the risk of there being a secondary bounce. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, stuart500 said:

I would be happy for FoH contributions to go towards a legal challenge. We have an excellent case IMO and must NOT allow ourselves to be demoted simply as a convenience to others.

 

As already mentioned above this would be the final straw for many. 

 

As mentioned above, the pricks proposing relegation in the press think that Hearts won't fight this through the courts.

 

Ann Budge doesn't mess about when it comes to the business side, and I'm sure she has lawyers all set to act them moment the SPFL try and shaft us.

[Bazzas right boot]

4 hours ago, karipidis said:

Pretty sure Livi did it a couple of years ago. 
 

Edit. They finished 2nd as well, so looks like it hasn’t happened before. 

 

Yeah, rangers were third but Motherwell hammered them in the final. 

😅

[frankblack]

Just now, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

Very, very true and I hope everyone gets through this as best they can.

If we all socially distance ourselves, then hopefully it helps get past this quicker.

 

I'd expect the time frame of reverting back to normal to be deliberately stretched to ease us all back into society and limit the risk of there being a secondary bounce. 

 

Correct, which means big social gatherings like concerts and football will be right at the back of the queue of restrictions that get relaxed.

[Albert McFly]

Mitchell and Regan have given fantasy predictions, there's a reason they don't work in football anymore and have zero credibility

[IveSeenTheLight]

5 minutes ago, stuart500 said:

I would be happy for FoH contributions to go towards a legal challenge. We have an excellent case IMO and must NOT allow ourselves to be demoted simply as a convenience to others.

 

As already mentioned above this would be the final straw for many. 

 

If its decided to relegate Hearts (still think there could be a league reconstruction) and there is anger / derision at the decision, whilst some may feel its not worth it, it could also act as a galvanizer to show defiance and ensure Hearts come back from this stronger

 

Just now, frankblack said:

 

As mentioned above, the pricks proposing relegation in the press think that Hearts won't fight this through the courts.

 

Ann Budge doesn't mess about when it comes to the business side, and I'm sure she has lawyers all set to act them moment the SPFL try and shaft us.

 

Unless the legal team determine that the courts would not find favorably under the rules at this unprecedented time of force majeure.

 

I'll reiterate, I still think they may find a solution in league reconstruction.

[IveSeenTheLight]

5 minutes ago, Barack said:

But pile into Tesco and stand 20 trolleys deep at the checkout.

 

There's an obvious solution to that as well.

It could easily be implemented for shopping to be done online with a delivery or click and collect service that manages social distancing.

It could also control what each household is being supplied with.

The government has already relaxed competition rules to allow collaboration across the supermarkets

[Bazzas right boot]

Looking at Italy's outbreak curve there in zero chance of football restarting within the next 3 months. 

Absolutely zero. 

 

Italy hasn't peaked yet and we are following them at an alarming rate. 

 

We'll be in total lock down in about a week. 

 

Another thing is, this is only just starting in some countries and hasn't even started in others. 

So when it starts in them? 

 

3 months min is looking likley for some kind of lock down, big events like concerts and football are ****ed. Could be after the year. 

 

The only thing that will really spread up the recovery of the world will be a cure/ vaccination. 

 

This is still to really hit some countries. 

 

South America, imo it will rip through, same as Russia. 

What about places like India... 

USA will be interesting, I think it will spread like fire there. 

It needs to dealt with worldwide as well, no point in some countries getting clear while others are in the midst of it, it will come back around to all. 

 

Football is ****ed, maybe until the season after imo. 

 

Even then, after that the economy will be on it's knees. 

[jr ewing]

6 minutes ago, IveSeenTheLight said:

 

There's an obvious solution to that as well.

It could easily be implemented for shopping to be done online with a delivery or click and collect service that manages social distancing.

It could also control what each household is being supplied with.

The government has already relaxed competition rules to allow collaboration across the supermarkets

Dates are beyond the middle of April. Most are not delivering to new customers.