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The rise and fall of The SNP.

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Justin Z

  

11 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I think you'll find, English an, that the Scottish people did none of what you've said. The Scum who chase power did. In 2014 the Scots voted for independence. And without foreigners no votes Scotland would be rid of the overlords. 

As for shetland, Scotland owns it, if the people who reside there don't want to live in an independent Scotland, they'll soon be removed. End of. And that goes for anyone, anywhere in Scotland. You'll be jailed, removed or executed. 

 

Now there's an excellent plan for a progressive, forward-looking independent Scotland :rolleyes5: :jj_facepalm:

 

If you don't like America - Trump President - Sticker | TeePublic

Edited by Justin Z

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SwindonJambo
39 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

I think you'll find, English an, that the Scottish people did none of what you've said. The Scum who chase power did. In 2014 the Scots voted for independence. And without foreigners no votes Scotland would be rid of the overlords. 

As for shetland, Scotland owns it, if the people who reside there don't want to live in an independent Scotland, they'll soon be removed. End of. And that goes for anyone, anywhere in Scotland. You'll be jailed, removed or executed. 

 

Thank you Heinrich MacHimmler. Sounds like a good plan to build a progressive and welcoming nation👍

Edited by SwindonJambo

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Montgomery Brewster
On 11/09/2020 at 14:38, Space Mackerel said:

More falling of the SNP, they’re in free fall now. ☹️
 

 

 

 

4643188A-E2EF-463D-99D1-D27EECB0A21A.jpeg

Yes unbelieveable how much a free fall the snp are in. 😮

 

the thread title really needs to change” to the rise and rise of the snp.  “

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Normthebarman
2 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I think you'll find, English an, that the Scottish people did none of what you've said. The Scum who chase power did. In 2014 the Scots voted for independence. And without foreigners no votes Scotland would be rid of the overlords. 

As for shetland, Scotland owns it, if the people who reside there don't want to live in an independent Scotland, they'll soon be removed. End of. And that goes for anyone, anywhere in Scotland. You'll be jailed, removed or executed. 

FFS. You don't help yourself, do you? This kind of shit is one of the reasons I wasn't sure about voting Yes. The same ****ing pish the Little Englanders were coming out with on Brexit. If that's truly what an independent Scotland would be like, there's not a ****ing chance I'll be voting for it. 

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Zlatanable
9 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

“While in 2014, Scotland voted 55% against 45% to remain in the UK, with many claiming that it would settle the question for a generation, the possibility of Brexit always carried the risk of re-opening the constitutional question.”
 

Cannot be denied. 

You can say what you want. 

 

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Fun Boaby
16 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

FFS. You don't help yourself, do you? This kind of shit is one of the reasons I wasn't sure about voting Yes. The same ****ing pish the Little Englanders were coming out with on Brexit. If that's truly what an independent Scotland would be like, there's not a ****ing chance I'll be voting for it. 

Im no Indy supporter, but I doubt very much whether that poster represents the average indy voter.

 

It's strange that his/her posting style is allowed so much latitude on here, given that many are disrespectful, aggressive and clearly trolling.

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strappingjock

CADE

 

Shetland not exactly trying to escape UK. The vote is to consider possibility of becoming Crown Dependency as per Channel Isles/IOM, Trsitan da Cunha. St Helena   etc. It seems the English run UK is more to their liking than the   the NSP future when Princess Street will be Kemlevskaya Naberezhnaya and the Scot monument rededicated to Felix Dzerzhinsky.

 

How did we ever get into this stupid rush to self destruction?   You only have to look around the world and try to find a successful socialist state. Not one has ever survived the passing of the (usually) despotic leader- even if it wears a skirt.

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strappingjock

Unless NS can found a dynasty like North Korea - that sort of society would suit NSP - until the people finally revolt

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Smithee
4 hours ago, strappingjock said:

CADE

 

Shetland not exactly trying to escape UK. The vote is to consider possibility of becoming Crown Dependency as per Channel Isles/IOM, Trsitan da Cunha. St Helena   etc. It seems the English run UK is more to their liking than the   the NSP future when Princess Street will be Kemlevskaya Naberezhnaya and the Scot monument rededicated to Felix Dzerzhinsky.

 

How did we ever get into this stupid rush to self destruction?   You only have to look around the world and try to find a successful socialist state. Not one has ever survived the passing of the (usually) despotic leader- even if it wears a skirt.

Because the union's a ****ing mess.

 

If this is a successful state you can ram it.

 

18 minutes ago, strappingjock said:

Unless NS can found a dynasty like North Korea - that sort of society would suit NSP - until the people finally revolt

 

🤪

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Cade

Daytime drinking is bad juju

 

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Roxy Hearts
2 hours ago, strappingjock said:

Unless NS can found a dynasty like North Korea - that sort of society would suit NSP - until the people finally revolt

Get a grip. What are you accusing Scots people of? North Korea, really! 

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Space Mackerel
On 13/09/2020 at 01:08, Zlatanable said:

Scrape the bottom of all the barrels you encounter.

 

You won't change what is happening.

 

Once in a lifetime/generation is a significant thing. 


Who to believe? Europe’s Chief Economist or Zlatanable? 😁

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NANOJAMBO
On 13/09/2020 at 12:44, strappingjock said:

Is Shetland to be followed by Orkney?  Western Isles? 

Looks like the London bubble has been copied in Edinburgh whereby the capital elite have no idea ( or care ) about the main body of the population.

 

As things stand the NSP  ( aye - the Nicola Sturgeon Party ) could end up in charge of an independent Scotbits.

 

In 50 years Iceland school children will be considering what was once Scotland and is now an insignificant blip on history.

 

The English must be laughing at us. Who needs enemies when your oldest one is eating itself? 

 

Mind, we have a history of dealing with our leaders.. Wallace was handed to the English, Mary was chased over the border but then we learned economics - Charles was sold to Cromwell.

 

Aren't we the nicest people to our heroes!!

They're definitely not. Their only "interest" is a kind of resentment that Scotland still wants to go its own way : they don't understand and are unwilling to invest 5 minutes in comprehending  what is going on. 

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XB52
23 hours ago, Fun Boaby said:

Im no Indy supporter, but I doubt very much whether that poster represents the average indy voter.

 

It's strange that his/her posting style is allowed so much latitude on here, given that many are disrespectful, aggressive and clearly trolling.

I have said for years that I believe him to be a unionist just posting utter garbage for some sad reason. If he is indeed an independence supporter I thank the Lord he is in a tiny tiny minority of brain dead anti English bigots 

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SwindonJambo
10 minutes ago, XB52 said:

I have said for years that I believe him to be a unionist just posting utter garbage for some sad reason. If he is indeed an independence supporter I thank the Lord he is in a tiny tiny minority of brain dead anti English bigots 

They are certainly a minority but unfortunately it's not that tiny. The same goes for jingoistic Orange Lodge/ Rangers or Rangers leaning bigots on the Union side. Each an embarrassment and no help to their respective sides.

Edited by SwindonJambo

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coconut doug
1 hour ago, SwindonJambo said:

They are certainly a minority but unfortunately it's not that tiny. The same goes for jingoistic Orange Lodge/ Rangers or Rangers leaning bigots on the Union side. Each an embarrassment and no help to their respective sides.

 

I'd like to see you provide evidence that the group that is not tiny actually exists. I'm only aware of Sean Clerkin who has a banner saying England out of Scotland. It's been stated by many on here that there are many extremist anti-English nationalists posting on here but apart from the obvious (and he is trolling) nobody has been identified.

  The same does not go for "jingoistic Orange lodge Rangers leaning bigots. There are hundreds of thousands of them who have behaved in a deplorable fashion for years embarrassing out country and intimidating our people. Their behaviour on marches and rallies is often despicable and by contrast the marches by indy supporters are good natured and have resulted in virtually no arrests.

  I would though be really interested to see evidence that Indy supporters are anti-English and that this anti-Englishness is anything more than a handful of bampots if it exists at all.

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SwindonJambo
20 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

I'd like to see you provide evidence that the group that is not tiny actually exists. I'm only aware of Sean Clerkin who has a banner saying England out of Scotland. It's been stated by many on here that there are many extremist anti-English nationalists posting on here but apart from the obvious (and he is trolling) nobody has been identified.

  The same does not go for "jingoistic Orange lodge Rangers leaning bigots. There are hundreds of thousands of them who have behaved in a deplorable fashion for years embarrassing out country and intimidating our people. Their behaviour on marches and rallies is often despicable and by contrast the marches by indy supporters are good natured and have resulted in virtually no arrests.

  I would though be really interested to see evidence that Indy supporters are anti-English and that this anti-Englishness is anything more than a handful of bampots if it exists at all.

It certainly isn't just a handful of bampots. You're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't exist at all. Probably worse in the West, where I'm from. A minority yes thankfully but definitely not tiny. The rest of Scotland is nowhere near as cosmopolitan as Edinburgh where no-one bats an eyelid at English accents which are common there. 

 

The nutjob Orange Lodgers are more likely to be in the tens of thousands than hundreds of thousands. If it was hundreds of thousands behaving as you describe, it would be civil war! They also tend to be older and a dwindling bunch.

 

My point is that there are embarrassing intimidating fruit loops on both sides who are a hindrance to their chosen sides and it would be naive to believe that the other side is worse than your own because of your own prejudices. And that goes for both sides.  I have this conversation with my dad often and he strongly supports the Union.

 

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coconut doug
9 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

It certainly isn't just a handful of bampots. You're kidding yourself if you think it doesn't exist at all. Probably worse in the West, where I'm from. A minority yes thankfully but definitely not tiny. The rest of Scotland is nowhere near as cosmopolitan as Edinburgh where no-one bats an eyelid at English accents which are common there. 

 

The nutjob Orange Lodgers are more likely to be in the tens of thousands than hundreds of thousands. If it was hundreds of thousands behaving as you describe, it would be civil war! They also tend to be older and a dwindling bunch.

 

My point is that there are embarrassing intimidating fruit loops on both sides who are a hindrance to their chosen sides and it would be naive to believe that the other side is worse than your own because of your own prejudices. And that goes for both sides.  I have this conversation with my dad often and he strongly supports the Union.

 

 

I've heard it all before but i never see them and despite numerous claims of online abuse nothing much materialises as evidence.

You seem to be suggesting that because English/Morningside accents are common in Edinburgh we are less likely to be anti-English. There are almost 1/2 a million English in Scotland and they are spread all over the country, that's getting on for 10% of the population. English people and their accents can be found everywhere but i have yet to see a proven link between the incidence of English people and their popularity among the indigenous population. A good research project for somebody.

 

     There are 50,000 Orange Lodge members in Scotland and many times more that number adhere to rangers in the "traditional" sense IMO.

These are the people (or so they tell us) who live in the least diverse communities in Scotland. It is a huge generalisation but it is they who live in the former mining towns and who nowadays are the left behind exhibiting the worst of all socioeconomic problems. The Indy movement draws a proportionately smaller amount of its support from these communities. Your comment about the civil war is amusing. I wonder how you have managed to miss it as you live in the west. For many Independence is seen as an opportunity to leave all this crap behind, not to perpetuate it.

 

Of course it would be naive to believe your side is better than the others without some evidence to back up you view and that is what i'm asking for. You really don't need me to provide evidence showing bigotry, intimidation and violence carried out by supporters of  the union do you? If you have got something that shows similar on the Indy side i would like to see it.

 

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Space Mackerel
On 13/09/2020 at 01:08, Zlatanable said:

Scrape the bottom of all the barrels you encounter.

 

You won't change what is happening.

 

Once in a lifetime/generation is a significant thing. 


This was today, why didn’t Fat Doris just say no? 
 

 

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Pans Jambo
1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:


This was today, why didn’t Fat Doris just say no? 
 

 

Because he cant. 
Same old pish. 
Once in a generation, What currency, Nae pensions, Nae Mobile phone signal, lead us dont leave us, valued partner in the union, we fought wars together, pooling & sharing, Nae Eastenders, Nae trade, Border guards & You canny visit yer auntie in Liverpool!!!

 

A load of bollox! The union is in its bed with a terminal illness and its kicking its last in complete desperation.

 

AND THE TORIES DONT REALLY CARE ANYMORE!!!

Edited by Pans Jambo

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Auld Reekin'
On 13/09/2020 at 20:22, Normthebarman said:

FFS. You don't help yourself, do you? This kind of shit is one of the reasons I wasn't sure about voting Yes. The same ****ing pish the Little Englanders were coming out with on Brexit. If that's truly what an independent Scotland would be like, there's not a ****ing chance I'll be voting for it. 

 

No he doesn't and no it won't.

 

You come across as a sensible and intelligent poster so I'm sure you won't be making any important decisions based on the ravings of anyone from either extreme fringe of this or any other issue.   :icon14:

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SwindonJambo
44 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/09/more-two-thirds-young-scots-now-back-independence

 

There's a really interesting breakdown of voting intentions in this article. 

 

It’s not just that. Younger voters have always been more inclined towards independence than older ones. Until 6 months ago, the No side had a constant and comfortable-ish lead in nearly every poll apart from for a few weeks after the Brexit vote.

 

The Yes side have had a consistent lead for 6 months, something that I’d put down to Boris, his inept handling of the Pandemic and general all round arseholery - behaviour in Parliament and, quite frankly arrogance. While Cameron and May were far from loved up there, enough people were willing to tolerate them to keep the balance in favour of No. Not so with Boris.  If this lead is consistently maintained over an extended period and even grows further, then Boris cannot say no forever. If it reaches 60% and stays there then something has to give. 

 

I believe 60% is the point at which most of those who remain on the No side will accept the result and new situation. Getting the defeated no vote on board and being supportive of  the newly independent country is very important in making it a success. It’s not like gloating over Hibbies after a 5-1 Cup Final Win. It’s the start of a journey which will require careful navigation and tough decision making. If they leave in droves, that will not be good at all. The property market would crash for starters.

 

I say all this as someone inclined towards the Union, probably because of where I live. I consider myself both Scottish and British. But I cannot see it lasting too much longer with Trumpets like Boris and co in charge. Most Scots cannot identify  with him or his type at all. I want an independent Scotland to get off on the right foot and prosper because I plan to return one day.

 

I’ve tried explaining all this to my dad, who’s nearly 80 and, like many of his generation very strongly  unionist but he’s vehemently against Indy. He doesn’t grasp how much Scotland has changed.

Edited by SwindonJambo

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Weakened Offender

Fallen yet? 

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BudgeUp
51 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

It’s not just that. Younger voters have always been more inclined towards independence than older ones. Until 6 months ago, the No side had a constant and comfortable-ish lead in nearly every poll apart from for a few weeks after the Brexit vote.

 

The Yes side have had a consistent lead for 6 months, something that I’d put down to Boris, his inept handling of the Pandemic and general all round arseholery - behaviour in Parliament and, quite frankly arrogance. While Cameron and May were far from loved up there, enough people were willing to tolerate them to keep the balance in favour of No. Not so with Boris.  If this lead is consistently maintained over an extended period and even grows further, then Boris cannot say no forever. If it reaches 60% and stays there then something has to give. 

 

I believe 60% is the point at which most of those who remain on the No side will accept the result and new situation. Getting the defeated no vote on board and being supportive of  the newly independent country is very important in making it a success. It’s not like gloating over Hibbies after a 5-1 Cup Final Win. It’s the start of a journey which will require careful navigation and tough decision making. If they leave in droves, that will not be good at all. The property market would crash for starters.

 

I say all this as someone inclined towards the Union, probably because of where I live. I consider myself both Scottish and British. But I cannot see it lasting too much longer with Trumpets like Boris and co in charge. Most Scots cannot identify  with him or his type at all. I want an independent Scotland to get off on the right foot and prosper because I plan to return one day.

 

I’ve tried explaining all this to my dad, who’s nearly 80 and, like many of his generation very strongly  unionist but he’s vehemently against Indy. He doesn’t grasp how much Scotland has changed.

 

A very reasonable and well thought out post. One which I identify with a lot. 

 

As stated before I'm an uncomfortable bedfellow with the SNP given that in essence, I'm a Tory. Voted Tory most of my adult life. 

 

But I'll be voting SNP until there's a new right of centre party in an independent Scotland. 

 

I can see no way back for the Tories in my eyes and to be honest, the only way this debate stops is one outcome, so let's just do it. 

 

Edit : I was meaning the chart that shows the demographic breakdown in ages, social class etc.

 

You're right when you say it's not just the younger generation. There is a shift. 

Edited by BudgeUp

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SwindonJambo
23 minutes ago, BudgeUp said:

 

A very reasonable and well thought out post. One which I identify with a lot. 

 

As stated before I'm an uncomfortable bedfellow with the SNP given that in essence, I'm a Tory. Voted Tory most of my adult life. 

 

But I'll be voting SNP until there's a new right of centre party in an independent Scotland. 

 

I can see no way back for the Tories in my eyes and to be honest, the only way this debate stops is one outcome, so let's just do it. 

 

Edit : I was meaning the chart that shows the demographic breakdown in ages, social class etc.

 

You're right when you say it's not just the younger generation. There is a shift. 

Why, Thank you 👍

 

It's nice to know that respectful discussion is still possible, amongst all the mud slinging. Independence supporting Conservatives are not as rare as people think! I know that many on here won't like it but I would fully expect a new centre right party to form in an independent Scotland and win seats in affluent areas as happens in democracies  all over the World. I would hope that the current SNP would splinter into left, centre and right. The idea of a 'national party' in an independent country doesn't sit comfortably with me.

 

The Tories opposed the creation of Holyrood yet still sent MSPs there and I would fully expect them to play a part post independence. It is democracy and all views should be appropriately represented and be part of the process.

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Space Mackerel
4 hours ago, Pans Jambo said:

Because he cant. 
Same old pish. 
Once in a generation, What currency, Nae pensions, Nae Mobile phone signal, lead us dont leave us, valued partner in the union, we fought wars together, pooling & sharing, Nae Eastenders, Nae trade, Border guards & You canny visit yer auntie in Liverpool!!!

 

A load of bollox! The union is in its bed with a terminal illness and its kicking its last in complete desperation.

 

AND THE TORIES DONT REALLY CARE ANYMORE!!!


Don’t!!!!

 

I know a lassie who voted No in 2014 purely for the reason she thought she would never see Eastenders again.

 

Im not joking either.

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Space Mackerel
1 hour ago, Weakened Offender said:

Fallen yet? 


Doesn’t look like it, maybe next week. 😊

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Weakened Offender
2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


Don’t!!!!

 

I know a lassie who voted No in 2014 purely for the reason she thought she would never see Eastenders again.

 

Im not joking either.

 

I believe that. 

 

I know a lassie who voted no because she didn't want to take her passport with her when she went shopping in Newcastle. 

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Space Mackerel
48 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

I believe that. 

 

I know a lassie who voted no because she didn't want to take her passport with her when she went shopping in Newcastle. 


****s sakes, I go down to Newcastle shopping at least 20 times a year, fair play to her for not falling to the Snazi bullshit. 
 

No way am I missing these extra B&M offers.

Edited by Space Mackerel

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ri Alban
5 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:


Doesn’t look like it, maybe next week. 😊

The British are putting everything into it, tho. 

5 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:


Don’t!!!!

 

I know a lassie who voted No in 2014 purely for the reason she thought she would never see Eastenders again.

 

Im not joking either.

Well we better ask America to let us join, I need to watch blue bloods. 

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AlphonseCapone
On 13/09/2020 at 20:22, Normthebarman said:

FFS. You don't help yourself, do you? This kind of shit is one of the reasons I wasn't sure about voting Yes. The same ****ing pish the Little Englanders were coming out with on Brexit. If that's truly what an independent Scotland would be like, there's not a ****ing chance I'll be voting for it. 

 

With the greatest respect, why would you give any weight to what a random anonymous person online says mate.  

 

On 13/09/2020 at 20:41, Fun Boaby said:

Im no Indy supporter, but I doubt very much whether that poster represents the average indy voter.

 

 

Exactly. This thread is a terrible example of the average independence and union supporters who are normal folk with a specific view on that topic. The Internet should never be used to judge anything. 

 

8 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

It’s not just that. Younger voters have always been more inclined towards independence than older ones. Until 6 months ago, the No side had a constant and comfortable-ish lead in nearly every poll apart from for a few weeks after the Brexit vote.

 

The Yes side have had a consistent lead for 6 months, something that I’d put down to Boris, his inept handling of the Pandemic and general all round arseholery - behaviour in Parliament and, quite frankly arrogance. While Cameron and May were far from loved up there, enough people were willing to tolerate them to keep the balance in favour of No. Not so with Boris.  If this lead is consistently maintained over an extended period and even grows further, then Boris cannot say no forever. If it reaches 60% and stays there then something has to give. 

 

I believe 60% is the point at which most of those who remain on the No side will accept the result and new situation. Getting the defeated no vote on board and being supportive of  the newly independent country is very important in making it a success. It’s not like gloating over Hibbies after a 5-1 Cup Final Win. It’s the start of a journey which will require careful navigation and tough decision making. If they leave in droves, that will not be good at all. The property market would crash for starters.

 

I say all this as someone inclined towards the Union, probably because of where I live. I consider myself both Scottish and British. But I cannot see it lasting too much longer with Trumpets like Boris and co in charge. Most Scots cannot identify  with him or his type at all. I want an independent Scotland to get off on the right foot and prosper because I plan to return one day.

 

I’ve tried explaining all this to my dad, who’s nearly 80 and, like many of his generation very strongly  unionist but he’s vehemently against Indy. He doesn’t grasp how much Scotland has changed.

 

Good post. 

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Smithee
7 hours ago, BudgeUp said:

 

A very reasonable and well thought out post. One which I identify with a lot. 

 

As stated before I'm an uncomfortable bedfellow with the SNP given that in essence, I'm a Tory. Voted Tory most of my adult life. 

 

But I'll be voting SNP until there's a new right of centre party in an independent Scotland. 

 

I can see no way back for the Tories in my eyes and to be honest, the only way this debate stops is one outcome, so let's just do it. 

 

Edit : I was meaning the chart that shows the demographic breakdown in ages, social class etc.

 

You're right when you say it's not just the younger generation. There is a shift. 

 

There are decent, reasonable humans on all sides, for most it's just a different perspective. Some of my favourite posters on here are conservative in nature, the most decent can't bring themselves to vote for the current shower.

 

All our voices should be heard, democracy shouldn't be a bulldozer driven by the most brazenly uncaring.

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jack D and coke
7 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

Why, Thank you 👍

 

It's nice to know that respectful discussion is still possible, amongst all the mud slinging. Independence supporting Conservatives are not as rare as people think! I know that many on here won't like it but I would fully expect a new centre right party to form in an independent Scotland and win seats in affluent areas as happens in democracies  all over the World. I would hope that the current SNP would splinter into left, centre and right. The idea of a 'national party' in an independent country doesn't sit comfortably with me.

 

The Tories opposed the creation of Holyrood yet still sent MSPs there and I would fully expect them to play a part post independence. It is democracy and all views should be appropriately represented and be part of the process.

I would expect - after a few elections anyway - in an Indy Scotland, that some conservative type government might well be the most popular. Left leaning government when we’re surrounded by right leaning just won’t be imo. Or not for very long.
You only have to look at Ireland who have only ever voted in a labour type once since gaining their independence. 
If they put up people like David McLetchie and Annabel Goldie then theyll get plenty votes. They just need away from the eton types that just don’t go down well up here. Boris Johnson regardless of how silly you want to make an argument is a disaster for the union. It’s all just too much for him. The man is so far out of his depth in this job it’s unbelievable. 
if labour produced Donald Dewars, Henry McLeish or Robin Cook types theyll also regain their voters. 
One thing is for certain, the SNP will be finished. 

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Brian Dundas
46 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I would expect - after a few elections anyway - in an Indy Scotland, that some conservative type government might well be the most popular. Left leaning government when we’re surrounded by right leaning just won’t be imo. Or not for very long.
You only have to look at Ireland who have only ever voted in a labour type once since gaining their independence. 
If they put up people like David McLetchie and Annabel Goldie then theyll get plenty votes. They just need away from the eton types that just don’t go down well up here. Boris Johnson regardless of how silly you want to make an argument is a disaster for the union. It’s all just too much for him. The man is so far out of his depth in this job it’s unbelievable. 
if labour produced Donald Dewars, Henry McLeish or Robin Cook types theyll also regain their voters. 
One thing is for certain, the SNP will be finished. 

It is an interesting thing to ponder, who would you vote for post Independence?

 

Currently there would be a lot of votes up for grabs, it would take a few elections to settle down - I'd probably vote Green, but unlike the last 30 years my vote would be a decision to be made every time - probably vote green just now...........

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jack D and coke
3 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

It is an interesting thing to ponder, who would you vote for post Independence?

 

Currently there would be a lot of votes up for grabs, it would take a few elections to settle down - I'd probably vote Green, but unlike the last 30 years my vote would be a decision to be made every time - probably vote green just now...........

I think I’m a labour man tbh, If they put up the right people. The Scottish Labour types of the last ten years have been joke figures though. 
But I’d imagine some of the better SNP people such as John Swinney might be labour types underneath. I could see me voting for someone like him. Down to earth guy. Jambo too👍🏼

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SwindonJambo
2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

I would expect - after a few elections anyway - in an Indy Scotland, that some conservative type government might well be the most popular. Left leaning government when we’re surrounded by right leaning just won’t be imo. Or not for very long.
You only have to look at Ireland who have only ever voted in a labour type once since gaining their independence. 
If they put up people like David McLetchie and Annabel Goldie then theyll get plenty votes. They just need away from the eton types that just don’t go down well up here. Boris Johnson regardless of how silly you want to make an argument is a disaster for the union. It’s all just too much for him. The man is so far out of his depth in this job it’s unbelievable. 
if labour produced Donald Dewars, Henry McLeish or Robin Cook types theyll also regain their voters. 
One thing is for certain, the SNP will be finished. 

 

Some good points there. I think the Post Independence Political Landscape, like everything else in life, could throw up a few surprises. All of the types you mention would have a part to play. 

I think there's general agreement that Boris is a bumbling buffoon, far out of his depth. An inveterate teller of fibs too, which is never very endearing.

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manaliveits105

Another 4 years at least before any indyref and if the government recovers post covid and brexit (lets not forget no governments are looking good anywhere re covid) the Scottish electorate will settle down in comfort and vote NAW once again.What happens in our kiddy on parliament and what Nanny McPhee and Fatty Blackford bluster means little - oh and the octopus is still to make a comeback of course - which could be a real game changer .

Better Together 

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Pans Jambo
32 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Another 4 years at least before any indyref and if the government recovers post covid and brexit (lets not forget no governments are looking good anywhere re covid) the Scottish electorate will settle down in comfort and vote NAW once again.What happens in our kiddy on parliament and what Nanny McPhee and Fatty Blackford bluster means little - oh and the octopus is still to make a comeback of course - which could be a real game changer .

Better Together 

You really shouldnt drink in the AM

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jack D and coke

From the FT

 

Boris Johnson’s Brexit plan will break the UK union

The insistence that England must decide what Scotland eats is a gift to the independence movement

Philip StephensSeptember 17, 2020 4:00 am

© Ingram Pinn/Financial Times

Boris Johnson's readiness to tear up the UK's reputation for honest dealing by rewriting the EU withdrawal deal has grabbed the headlines. The news, though, is worse. Legislation to create a post-Brexit single market across England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland shows equal contempt for the UK's constitutional settlement. By asserting unassailable English supremacy, the prime minister is inviting Scotland to leave the union. 

There is a burgeoning school of thought, in Whitehall and Westminster as well as Edinburgh, that says Brexit has made Scottish independence inevitable. The sweep of history, the story runs, will conclude that the matter was settled as soon as England voted to leave the EU and Scotland to remain. The frayed bonds of the union were cut beyond repair.

There is something to be said for the long view. The Anglo-Scottish union of 1707 was a contingent agreement. Mr Johnson's remark this year that there is “no such thing” as a border between the two nations was a measure of indifference as well as ignorance. Scotland did not give up its border or its nationhood — nor its distinct legal and educational systems. 

The union was about collaboration abroad. Scotland secured access to the emerging British empire, and England to talented entrepreneurs, engineers and administrators. With empire long gone, Brexit has put an end to any notion of a joint enterprise beyond British shores. Instead, Scotland is presented with a choice: if it sticks with England, it cuts itself off from Europe. The referendum vote to leave the EU was bad enough. The threat to defy international law on the way to a no-deal Brexit risks leaving Scotland isolated on the edge of its own continent.

Historical determinists point also to the sharp contrast in political culture and temperament revealed by Covid-19. The performance of the two nations in curbing the spread has not been that different; the styles have been miles apart. The cautious, open approach of Nicola Sturgeon's Scottish National party administration has sat alongside a strategy in Downing Street most kindly described as shambolic bluster. 

At this point — with Ms Sturgeon demanding a rerun of the 2014 independence poll and the opinion polls showing a solidifying majority of Scots in favour of independence — a reliably pro-union government at Westminster would be declaring that nothing is preordained. England and Scotland have both been enriched by their partnership. 

History is written by human agency. Brexit, such a government would continue, can be the occasion for a new settlement between the four constituent parts of the union. Power reclaimed from Brussels will be distributed to every corner of the UK.

Mr Johnson has taken the opposite course. Publicly he declares himself a unionist; privately, Whitehall officials report, he is heard to scorn Scotland as “too leftwing” — spending money raised from English taxpayers on lavish welfare. The prejudice is reflected in the legislation now before parliament to create a UK single market. 

Beyond the controversial clauses that would renege on provisions in the withdrawal agreement to keep an open border in Ireland, the essential purpose of the new law is to tighten England’s grip over the rest of the UK. 

Decisions over food and environment norms, labour law and industrial standards hitherto shared with Brussels will belong solely to Westminster. Powers over health and education held by the Scottish parliament and Northern Ireland and Welsh assemblies will be diluted. Westminster will decide whether to scrap the animal husbandry rules that presently bar imports of American chlorinated chicken.

Video: Opinion: Can the government breach the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement?

A common set of rules is certainly needed to allow the UK market to operate freely. Yet there is no reason why the other nations of the union should be barred a say in negotiating trade deals and the setting of standards, or that UK-wide norms must exclude a measure of national discretion. But no, English MPs at Westminster will decide what Scotland eats. 

In truth, the legislation — as bluntly condemned by a pro-union government in Wales as by Ms Sturgeon — is a gift to Scottish nationalism, proof that centrist Scotland is now a prisoner of rightwing English Conservativism.

Mr Johnson’s response to criticism of this English-fits-all approach is to insist he will simply block independence. Even if, as the polls suggest, the Scottish Nationalists win a mandate in next year's Edinburgh elections, he will prevent a referendum. If that fails, there is a back-up plan. Scottish voters will again be told that their reliance on fiscal transfers from England mean they cannot afford independence.

Both approaches serve the nationalists: the first by legitimising the SNP charge that England is locking Scotland into a state of vassalage; the second by displaying a condescending contempt calculated to energise nationalists. Of course, independence would bring severe economic challenges. But if there was a lesson from the Brexit vote in 2016 it was that identity trumps economics.

Whatever the outcome of the present furore over lawbreaking, Brexit has also weakened the bonds between Northern Ireland and mainland Britain. The strains on the union, though, start with the balance between Westminster and Edinburgh. Break-up may not be preordained, but none looks so determined as Mr Johnson to force Scotland’s hand.

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manaliveits105

independence would bring severe economic challenges

 

Now there is a gross understatement 

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The Mighty Thor
2 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

independence would bring severe economic challenges

 

Now there is a gross understatement 

Being handcuffed to the incredibly irrational and unstable Westminster government will bring severe economic consequences. 

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OTT
On 16/09/2020 at 17:40, Space Mackerel said:


This was today, why didn’t Fat Doris just say no? 
 

 

 

Found his refusal to simply just say no quite interesting. Makes me wonder why he won't allow himself to get boxed into a 'no'. Noticed he seemed genuinely surprised that 'once in a generation' wasn't in the Edinburgh agreement.. 

 

Does that open him up to a legal challenge he cannot win therefore as long as he doesn't outright reject it, it remains in a kind of grey area or not rejected but not accepted?

 

I find this whole idea of needing English consent to hold a referendum to be incredibly undemocratic. The direction the Tories are taking us in, if we do manage to get agreement it seems like the referendum will end up being a vote for becoming northern England or Independent. Increased centralisation undermines everything about devolution, our healthcare, schools, legal system. Much of what makes Scotland unique will be washed away to create this 'internal market' the tories are craving. Our parliament will be utterly castrated of power and authority. I'm yet to actually see any examples of these many powers which will be coming to Scotland in light of Brexit that aren't overshadowed by a London veto. 

 

It pains me that people are still playing the ostrich with regard to their ardent insistence on preserving the Union.  What are we fighting to maintain? An insular, undemocratic centralised British state with no regard for the socio-cultural nuances between the individual nations?  I cannot wrap my head around it. Thankfully, the undecideds seem to where the tide is turning so if more headway can be made with the over 65s demographic it will be a forgone conclusion. Its just getting the ****witt to agree to one. 

 

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Space Mackerel
5 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Found his refusal to simply just say no quite interesting. Makes me wonder why he won't allow himself to get boxed into a 'no'. Noticed he seemed genuinely surprised that 'once in a generation' wasn't in the Edinburgh agreement.. 

 

Does that open him up to a legal challenge he cannot win therefore as long as he doesn't outright reject it, it remains in a kind of grey area or not rejected but not accepted?

 

I find this whole idea of needing English consent to hold a referendum to be incredibly undemocratic. The direction the Tories are taking us in, if we do manage to get agreement it seems like the referendum will end up being a vote for becoming northern England or Independent. Increased centralisation undermines everything about devolution, our healthcare, schools, legal system. Much of what makes Scotland unique will be washed away to create this 'internal market' the tories are craving. Our parliament will be utterly castrated of power and authority. I'm yet to actually see any examples of these many powers which will be coming to Scotland in light of Brexit that aren't overshadowed by a London veto. 

 

It pains me that people are still playing the ostrich with regard to their ardent insistence on preserving the Union.  What are we fighting to maintain? An insular, undemocratic centralised British state with no regard for the socio-cultural nuances between the individual nations?  I cannot wrap my head around it. Thankfully, the undecideds seem to where the tide is turning so if more headway can be made with the over 65s demographic it will be a forgone conclusion. Its just getting the ****witt to agree to one. 

 


Lots of chat regarding Boris Johnson getting jottered after January. The useful idiot is getting P45ed off the party.

 

Michael Gove along with Cummings has been running the Government, not Johnson. 

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Dawnrazor
4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:


Lots of chat regarding Boris Johnson getting jottered after January. The useful idiot is getting P45ed off the party.

 

I've thought this would happen, use him to get brexit done and out the way and get a more sensible leader appointed, he was always going to be a means to an end, this virus has been a spanner in the works for everyone though.

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SwindonJambo
31 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

I've thought this would happen, use him to get brexit done and out the way and get a more sensible leader appointed, he was always going to be a means to an end, this virus has been a spanner in the works for everyone though.

The Tories are the best and most ruthless party for getting rid of no longer wanted leaders, both in and out of power. In the last 30 years, Thatcher, Duncan-Smith & May were all knocked off their perch from within, D-S before he even contested an election. Labour tried and failed with Brown and Corbyn.

 

If Boris is punted, who do you think would replace him? My money's on Rishi Sunak.

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Dawnrazor
39 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

 

If Boris is punted, who do you think would replace him? My money's on Rishi Sunak.

I think he's the obvious choice at the moment.

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Cade

Rishi's too much of a One Nation-style Tory to lead that mess of a party as it is right now.

 

It'll be Gove or (heaven forfend) Rees-Mogg

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