Jump to content

The rise and fall of The SNP.


Guest

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Isn't that what devolution is about?

 

Maybe, but as we've discussed here, actual devolution is literally impossible in this Constitutional order, because Westminster is always sovereign and can't bind future versions of itself. In effect, Holyrood has zero real power which can be revoked in a snap. And, that lack of power is about to be tested with the brewing internal market controversy, when as I predict the Tories decide they care not a jot about domestic law either, much less international law and treaties, and usurp devolved economic matters.

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

And you don't need global one state harmony, that's pie in the sky and you slotted it in there to devalue my general point. What you do need is rid of the current brand of Tory.

 

You too are devaluing the very real, practical arguments for independence with flowery language about nations being imaginary constructs of the manipulated. Smithee is trying to talk about practical matters, I think. That nations have very real, tangible effects, and this particular form of nation does not allow for what you see as a better solution than independence.

 

Would getting rid of "this brand of Tory" help at least? Sure, probably, like a plaster over a gaping knife wound, but call me when that happens though anyway, you know? We've got decades, probably centuries of non-progress on that front to guide us as to the likelihood.

 

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

All good questions, and ones that I'm asking too, but the bit in bold nails it. It's not just Jockland and the NE of England that feels let down and ignored, it's pretty much every region ouwith the SE.

 

True, but there will be no drawbridge being pulled up as you were saying. Scottish indy supporters have been near unanimous in their vision for an open, immigration-heavy Scotland that works for everyone (let's leave moonhowlers who will go unnamed out of the discussion for the moment). To paraphrase the First Minister, "Our position is if you want to be Scottish, you can be." Thinking about it in a free market sense, these disaffected people outwith the Southeast would all be free to come and participate in a society with fundamentally fairer, more just aims and goals. (Am I presuming here? Yes. I feel justified in doing so.)

 

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

I'll admit that it's a shitty situation and I don't have the answer. The Tories swung traditionally socialist English with a Brexit campaign which played on their basest nationalistic instincts. It was utterly insidious.

 

The misuse of fantasy-laden, domineeringly jingoistic nationalism (for a long time, not just for recent political expediency) is not an argument against nationalism full stop. A cautionary tale? Yes. But for me, based on what the inclusive nationalism I see imagined by nearly every independence supporter, not a danger here.

 

Now as someone (@jack D and coke maybe?) said earlier in the thread or in another thread, if Scottish Nationalism remained a movement post-independence, that would and should throw alarm bells up all over the place. But now? In the context of forging a modern identity as pushback against a much larger force that's been trying to repress that identity for centuries? A useful tool for a shared identity and ongoing story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 16.3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Unknown user

    1077

  • jack D and coke

    795

  • manaliveits105

    705

  • Roxy Hearts

    648

Governor Tarkin
1 hour ago, Smithee said:

As always, I'm not trying to persuade you, I don't expect you to agree. But you've taken exception to a phrase and not addressed the point - we get to spend what Westminster says we get to spend and within the structure Westminster has set up.

If that's acceptable to you fair enough, I think it's a crock myself.

 

It wasn't the point I was really interested in debating, but for what it's worth your stance is obviously not without merit.

 

55 minutes ago, Justin Z said:


You too are devaluing the very real, practical arguments for independence with flowery language about nations being imaginary constructs of the manipulated.

 

 

I perhaps would be, if that was what I was trying to tease out of the exchange, but I suppose you weren't to know that.

 

So, how about you stop assuming you know what other people are thinking (this might be tough for you) and stick your own flowery language back up your patronising farter. 

 

Some of your other points were quite good though.

 

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

The U.K. isn’t a bad thing I don’t dislike it or the English or anyone else it’s not done me any harm...


...I don’t think independence is a silver bullet either but making decisions that genuinely affect people here can’t be a bad thing. Scotland has an abundance of resources there is no way on earth we would go to shit. Some bumps in the road? Of course but you’re getting them anyway it’s just a bunch of other people making the decisions about what ones you getting. 

 

I haven't quoted your whole post because it was tl;dr lol, but I'm not arguing for or against an independent Scotland as I'm firmly in the undecided camp. If it looks like I'm taking issue with the nationalists it's because they're in the massive majority on here, and I'm really just curious as to what it drives it for them as individuals. I'm not interested in the cliched stuff (braveheart, freedom, lol, etc), and the financial stuff is as speculative as brexit so nobody can be absolutely certain. 

What I can gather from most is that their own worldview appears as internally inconsistent as my own. So I might be going about it in a confused and round-about way, but I'm really just trying to learn something which I might actually find useful.

 

Edited by Governor Tarkin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It wasn't the point I was interested in debating, but for what it's

worth your stance is obviously not without merit.

 

 

I perhaps would be, if that was what I was trying to tease out of the exchange, but I suppose you weren't to know that.

 

So, how about you stop assuming you know what other people are thinking (this might be tough for you) and stick your own flowery language back up your patronising farter. 

 

Some of your other points were quite good though.

 

 

I haven't quoted your whole post because it was tl;dr lol. I'm not arguing for or against an independent Scotland as I'm firmly in the undecided camp. If it looks like I'm taking issue with the nationalists it's because they're in the massive majority on here, and I'm really just curious as to what it drives it for them as individuals. I'm not interested in the cliched stuff (braveheart, freedom, lol, etc), and the financial stuff is as speculative as brexit so nobody can be absolutely certain. 

What I can gather from most is that their own worldview appears as internally inconsistent as my own. So I might be going about it in a confused and round-about way, but I'm really just trying to learn something which I might actually find useful.

 

I’m not into the braveheart stuff, I don’t know anyone who is being honest and i can’t abide that shite. I love England and the English people I’ve spent a lot of time down there, had girlfriends etc it’s a brilliant place. 

Im not hellbent on Indy either I was quite content that we had the vote and the people voted (whatever their reasons) and until the brexit vote I don’t think anyone could’ve spoiled for another one. However it’s an undeniable fact that Scotland is very pro eu and the goalposts have been moved somewhat since we were promised we would be leading the UK when it’s clear they’re intent on taking powers away. I know that will please people who wish the Indy question to just go away but I honestly believe from the day the Scottish parliament was re-opened it was only a matter of time. Just wanting the issue to go away is probably exacerbating the whole thing, they won’t face it up and deal with it and instead talk about haggis vouchers and brigadoon and all that crap its every bit as bad and winds me right up. Just because you get some halfwit waving a flag at the border it hardly sums up a nation yet they’ll try pin that on the whole Indy question, that it’s about hate, it’s just isn’t. 
The wheels turn slowly in these things and the young ones have grown up with Scottish leaders in a Scottish parliament it will feel natural to them. 
I don’t really see why we couldn’t come to an agreement and remain best friends and allies with rUK, you’d certainly hope that would be the case. 
 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin

Can't disagree with much of that, but I think the split, when it comes, might be an acrimonious one. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, ri Alban said:

She's a Clown who has to go. Come to think of it. Where was your outrage when Cummings wasn't giving a feck, or when Boris was shaking hands and ended up in icu. Exactly, you only turn up with your flute when the SNP do something daft. 

 

Another nationalist accusing an opponent of missing bus fares. Why can't you deal with facts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

manaliveits105

Prime Minister reiterates today there will be indyref2 on his watch - Scottish people decided in 2014 

Mr Blobby Blackford is beelin 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Prime Minister reiterates today there will be indyref2 on his watch - Scottish people decided in 2014 

Mr Blobby Blackford is beelin 

Cheers for confirming. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nucky Thompson
24 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Prime Minister reiterates today there will be indyref2 on his watch - Scottish people decided in 2014 

Mr Blobby Blackford is beelin 

:glorious:

Fat Hibs SNP prick should be enough for proper Hearts fans to reject the arseholes 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
45 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

:glorious:

Fat Hibs SNP prick should be enough for proper Hearts fans to reject the arseholes 

 

PHM already do.

This thread is a nest of Quislings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Justin Z said:

You too are devaluing the very real, practical arguments for independence with flowery language about nations being imaginary constructs of the manipulated. Smithee is trying to talk about practical matters, I think. That nations have very real, tangible effects, and this particular form of nation does not allow for what you see as a better solution than independence.

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

So, how about you stop assuming you know what other people are thinking (this might be tough for you) and stick your own flowery language back up your patronising farter.

 

13 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

And you don't need global one state harmony, that's pie in the sky and you slotted it in there to devalue my general point.

 

8 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

That's two of my posts you've replied to with purile undertones. Mind in my first post where I said we could do with a serious debate.

 

Tommy.jpg.ee22506950353fdf649ad714050df8b0.jpg

 

Mate. "Stop assuming what other people are thinking?" Don't even be going there when you're in the middle of your own lark, come on now. It's not unfair of you by any means, but please.

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

I perhaps would be, if that was what I was trying to tease out of the exchange, but I suppose you weren't to know that.

 

:indeed: That was the point. Assuming your good intentions—with a bit of cheek.

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Some of your other points were quite good though.

 

You're god damn right. You addressing them then? Or just having another go? 👊🏻

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AlphonseCapone
12 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Can't disagree with much of that, but I think the split, when it comes, might be an acrimonious one. Hopefully I'm wrong.

 

Good wee conversation broke out in this thread up until here... 

 

9 hours ago, JyTees said:

 

Another nationalist accusing an opponent of missing bus fares. Why can't you deal with facts?

 

And normal service resumed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
9 hours ago, Justin Z said:

You're god damn right. You addressing them then? Or just having another go? 👊🏻

 

Got a lot on, mate, and interesting though they are, they're not what I was driving at. I'm really trying to get to the bottom of folks (and my own) perceptions of nationhood, identity, and the other. How does the benign nationlism of the lived environment shape their thoughts, what are borders, why are there borders, where do they see themselves in the historical process, what are the means and what are the ends, and are the means an end in themselves. This isn't information that most folk will freely volunteer, not conciously at least, usually because they don't know themselves. They aren't cognitively aware of the evolution, it just sort of exists. Worldviews are notoriously internally inconsistent and folk don't want to really go there because the inconsistency confuses (and frightens) them. The odd tangent or absurdist position can often coax it out. A sort of null-hypothesis set up to fail. The current 'national' zeitgeist affords a fantastic opportunity to delve in to this, and like I said in an earlier post I'm trying to learn something usefull.

 

Now I know that this sounds very pie-in-the-sky, but it feeds directly into, and has a very tangible effect on Smithee's practical matters that you champion above.

 

Now no post is complete without a sly dig, so here we go. You don't often debate, Justin. If you don't agree with someone's stand you put them on trial, find them guilty, sentence them to half a dozen lengthy post lecturing them on why they are wrong and most likely a terrible person, and occasionally apply some pretty insulting labels. 

 

How was that for a Sunday morning effort? 👍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

And normal service resumed. 

 

So I assume you think it's fine to throw accusations of bigotry at someone who has a different political opinion?

 

Flute toting Hun without the bus fares is a pretty lame response. It's a bit like the hobo chat you get in the Terrace if you have a difference of opinion on a player, coach, director etc.

 

Pretty piss poor response to a discussion if you ask me and suggests an inability to argue their point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AlphonseCapone
2 minutes ago, JyTees said:

 

So I assume you think it's fine to throw accusations of bigotry at someone who has a different political opinion?

 

Flute toting Hun without the bus fares is a pretty lame response. It's a bit like the hobo chat you get in the Terrace if you have a difference of opinion on a player, coach, director etc.

 

Pretty piss poor response to a discussion if you ask me and suggests an inability to argue their point.

 

You shouldn't assume that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jack D and coke

Nationalism or nationhood is ridiculous I agree. Who drew these imaginary lines anyway? I was shocked to learn that Germany (in its current state and borders) for example is only a little older than Hearts, that’s pretty mental. I think it was Russell Brand who was going on about it once and said people wouldn’t look from another planet and see countries or you didn’t get a dinosaur from Belgium etc it’s absolute nonsense but we have borders and certain areas need certain stimulus that doesn’t work in others. If your getting flags out and basing it on some historic battles then you really need to step away because your head has been messed but let’s not pretend that the uk government hasn’t exploited resources that are in our neck of the woods as it were and used them to build the M25, channel tunnel etc when there was plenty poverty much closer to where it was being extracted. And then of course lying about it covering it up and admitting we’d have been the richest ***** in Europe💷💷
The British government has done this for centuries to countries around the world and recently an Indian economist put a figure of some trillions of wealth taken from them under our colonial past. You wonder how Britain is in debt considering what we’ve stolen. There’s often chat too from people who wish to remain in the union that if Scotland had went indy years ago then we would be been better off now so sort of backhandedly admitting we’ve been ripped off but that’s there’s no point now cos we’re skint, it’s quite the admission. The lies before the 2014 Indy vote that we would be leading the union and get much more powers to control our destiny..not really happening is it. I made a drunken remark a few weeks ago which you picked up on about the spitfires, I guess my point was (badly made I suppose) that some people think everything’s great because oh look it’s WW2 again and we’re ****ing great here and that’s all some people need to get them listening to these mugs running this place again it winds me right up. Id never denigrate the war or the people but they pull this shit out all the time to placate. Seeing a spitfire is cool but the sentiment behind them doing it I didnt like. 
Seen these too from the 1950’s on Clement Atlee visit to the west of Scotland which surprised me. One of pics says “free us from London stranglehold” 

This has been a thorn in this countries side for so long and they’ve done their damndest to muddy the waters and intimidate and tell people here we’d have nothing without them and leave and we’ll literally ruin you...these are our friends??
I was one of the biggest rule Britannia bigoted Hearts fans you would ever meet and sometimes it still comes out in me when we play celtic I’ll admit 😬 but I like to think I’ve tried to educate myself. I don’t think Scotland is better than England and I certainly don’t hate Britain, it’s not done me any harm but I think it’s time we go out separate ways. You might disagree and that’s fine but i don’t want it for reasons of wanting to wave flags, shout about freedom or hating the English. 
Time for a coffee

5648EC73-A5A1-4127-86B4-B1357F6A6B3E.jpeg

86354FB6-CA76-425B-AA33-E49C3D78B2C7.jpeg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

manaliveits105

The nationalists have learned nothing from 2014 with their vicious verbal attacks on non nationalists - who can forget the - aye the auld nawbags will die off patter when talking about their fellow country people - and still it goes on today to anyone who dares doubt independence or Queen Murrell .

Boris says No - just be telt !:greggy:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seymour M Hersh

Can I ask another question (hopefully an snp fanatic will know the answer) have Mr & Mrs Murrell (stifles snigger) taken out super injunctions to prevent the media discussing their private lives? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
28 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

 I made a drunken remark a few weeks ago which you picked up on about the spitfires

 

 

I don't believe you were drunk. :D

 

30 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:


I was one of the biggest rule Britannia bigoted Hearts fans you would ever meet and sometimes it still comes out in me when we play celtic I’ll admit 😬  ️

 

 

This transgression is entirely justifiable and is nothing to be ashamed about.

 

32 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Time for a coffee

 

 

****ing good effort of a post before your first coffe of the day. 👍

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

Nationalism or nationhood is ridiculous I agree. Who drew these imaginary lines anyway? I was shocked to learn that Germany (in its current state and borders) for example is only a little older than Hearts, that’s pretty mental. I think it was Russell Brand who was going on about it once and said people wouldn’t look from another planet and see countries or you didn’t get a dinosaur from Belgium etc it’s absolute nonsense but we have borders and certain areas need certain stimulus that doesn’t work in others. If your getting flags out and basing it on some historic battles then you really need to step away because your head has been messed but let’s not pretend that the uk government hasn’t exploited resources that are in our neck of the woods as it were and used them to build the M25, channel tunnel etc when there was plenty poverty much closer to where it was being extracted. And then of course lying about it covering it up and admitting we’d have been the richest ***** in Europe💷💷
The British government has done this for centuries to countries around the world and recently an Indian economist put a figure of some trillions of wealth taken from them under our colonial past. You wonder how Britain is in debt considering what we’ve stolen. There’s often chat too from people who wish to remain in the union that if Scotland had went indy years ago then we would be been better off now so sort of backhandedly admitting we’ve been ripped off but that’s there’s no point now cos we’re skint, it’s quite the admission. The lies before the 2014 Indy vote that we would be leading the union and get much more powers to control our destiny..not really happening is it. I made a drunken remark a few weeks ago which you picked up on about the spitfires, I guess my point was (badly made I suppose) that some people think everything’s great because oh look it’s WW2 again and we’re ****ing great here and that’s all some people need to get them listening to these mugs running this place again it winds me right up. Id never denigrate the war or the people but they pull this shit out all the time to placate. Seeing a spitfire is cool but the sentiment behind them doing it I didnt like. 
Seen these too from the 1950’s on Clement Atlee visit to the west of Scotland which surprised me. One of pics says “free us from London stranglehold” 

This has been a thorn in this countries side for so long and they’ve done their damndest to muddy the waters and intimidate and tell people here we’d have nothing without them and leave and we’ll literally ruin you...these are our friends??
I was one of the biggest rule Britannia bigoted Hearts fans you would ever meet and sometimes it still comes out in me when we play celtic I’ll admit 😬 but I like to think I’ve tried to educate myself. I don’t think Scotland is better than England and I certainly don’t hate Britain, it’s not done me any harm but I think it’s time we go out separate ways. You might disagree and that’s fine but i don’t want it for reasons of wanting to wave flags, shout about freedom or hating the English. 
Time for a coffee

5648EC73-A5A1-4127-86B4-B1357F6A6B3E.jpeg

86354FB6-CA76-425B-AA33-E49C3D78B2C7.jpeg

Good post. Unfortunately the flag shaggers in the Nationalist movement are in the majority right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jack D and coke
1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

Good post. Unfortunately the flag shaggers in the Nationalist movement are in the majority right now.

I think we all see what we want to see. I see plenty flag waving goons on both sides tbh it certainly isn’t a one way street.
But British nationalism=good

Scottish nationalism=very bad

They’re both dumb AF incidentally. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
4 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I think we all see what we want to see. I see plenty flag waving goons on both sides tbh it certainly isn’t a one way street.
But British nationalism=good

Scottish nationalism=very bad

They’re both dumb AF incidentally. 

 

:spoton:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

doctor jambo
43 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I think we all see what we want to see. I see plenty flag waving goons on both sides tbh it certainly isn’t a one way street.
But British nationalism=good

Scottish nationalism=very bad

They’re both dumb AF incidentally. 

No nationalism makes sense.

Borders only exist so laws based on shared values can be applied to those within those lines, whilst keeping out those without said values.

However we seem hell bent on throwing up walls between us and those with shared values, whilst letting in those who don’t 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

No nationalism makes sense.

Borders only exist so laws based on shared values can be applied to those within those lines, whilst keeping out those without said values.

However we seem hell bent on throwing up walls between us and those with shared values, whilst letting in those who don’t 

Is that a fact. I'll take putting up one wall with the country's (Wales and NI have no say either) government who have tried in vain to destroy our identity, to open up the other borders they have no closed against our say so. 

 

 

Tick Tock!!! 

Edited by ri Alban
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
28 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Is that a fact. I'll take putting up one wall with the country's (Wales and NI have no say either) government who have tried in vain to destroy our identity, to open up the other borders they have no closed against our say so. 

 

 

Tick Tock!!! 

 

What identity is that, bud?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jack D and coke
33 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

No nationalism makes sense.

Borders only exist so laws based on shared values can be applied to those within those lines, whilst keeping out those without said values.

However we seem hell bent on throwing up walls between us and those with shared values, whilst letting in those who don’t 

Depends what you believe or what you want to believe. Most people here don’t want this right wing tory government. If that’s throwing up walls then fair enough. They’re forcing it upon us is another way to look at it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, jack D and coke said:

I think we all see what we want to see. I see plenty flag waving goons on both sides tbh it certainly isn’t a one way street.
But British nationalism=good

Scottish nationalism=very bad

They’re both dumb AF incidentally. 

I criticise both and as I've said many times, Nationalism has replaced religion as the people"s Opiate in many Western States.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jack D and coke
16 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

I criticise both and as I've said many times, Nationalism has replaced religion as the people"s Opiate in many Western States.

 

It’s hard to know what’s went wrong. I watched the Social Dilemma the other day (Netflix doc). 
Give that a watch. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, weehammy said:

You beat me to it. I await the response with interest.......and trepidation!

Mel-Gibson-Braveheart.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Got a lot on, mate, and interesting though they are, they're not what I was driving at. I'm really trying to get to the bottom of folks (and my own) perceptions of nationhood, identity, and the other. How does the benign nationlism of the lived environment shape their thoughts, what are borders, why are there borders, where do they see themselves in the historical process, what are the means and what are the ends, and are the means an end in themselves. This isn't information that most folk will freely volunteer, not conciously at least, usually because they don't know themselves. They aren't cognitively aware of the evolution, it just sort of exists. Worldviews are notoriously internally inconsistent and folk don't want to really go there because the inconsistency confuses (and frightens) them. The odd tangent or absurdist position can often coax it out. A sort of null-hypothesis set up to fail. The current 'national' zeitgeist affords a fantastic opportunity to delve in to this, and like I said in an earlier post I'm trying to learn something usefull.

 

This is great, and it would be fascinating to explore. As far as learning something useful, are "puerile responses" to your questions not also part of the data—potentially a big part?

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Now I know that this sounds very pie-in-the-sky, but it feeds directly into, and has a very tangible effect on Smithee's practical matters that you champion above.

 

It sounds pie-in-the-sky but it does have the potential for real effects, and from a personal standpoint I love this shit :lol: My undergrad was basically sociology.

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Now no post is complete without a sly dig, so here we go. You don't often debate, Justin. If you don't agree with someone's stand you put them on trial, find them guilty, sentence them to half a dozen lengthy post lecturing them on why they are wrong and most likely a terrible person, and occasionally apply some pretty insulting labels. 

 

As I said to someone else recently, I try to limit this under two circumstances. One, someone is being a *****, or two, someone is being a dumb *****. Opinions are going to differ on who's what and when, but I will certainly consider myself suitably chastised by you and try to limit myself. But by the same token if I make a bigot or racist's day less comfortable, I'm happy to deal with the personal fallout.

 

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

How was that for a Sunday morning effort? 👍

 

Excellent, and I appreciate it, although it's Saturday . . . on both sides of the Atlantic. Considering the kind of week you must've had to make you think it's Sunday, doubly excellent. :wink:

 

Right, now I'm off to get my tea, and because Yank tea is tragic, it's Yorkshire Gold.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

What identity is that, bud?

 

Language identity is a small but significant aspect of it, both personally for a great many people today, and historically.

 

 

Earlier in this thread I got on a pie-in-the-sky lark of my own about how Pagan practices in Latvia have seen a resurgence as their national identity continues to be infringed on by the Russians, with some young Latvians not even speaking their own language anymore. That was in response to your assertion that nationalism is religion, "in a nutshell."

 

Moonhowling nationalism as we see from one poster in particular, yeah, that's accurate. Conflating that with much more thoughtful, truly civic nationalism under one giant umbrella of "nationalism = religion" or "no nationalism makes sense" is a bit simplistic, isn't it? And if it's not, what's the point of going to all this trouble to understand it?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

This is great, and it would be fascinating to explore. As far as learning something useful, are "puerile responses" to your questions not also part of the data—potentially a big part?

 

Absolutely, and they informed the direction of my subsequent line of inquiry. 

 

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

It sounds pie-in-the-sky but it does have the potential for real effects, and from a personal standpoint I love this shit :lol: My undergrad was basically sociology.

 

 

Aye, my first two years were more or less sociology/anthropology/philosophy. I found it tricky to get in to and strangely much of it more interesting now than it was at the time. 

 

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

As I said to someone else recently, I try to limit this under two circumstances. 

 

:rofl:

 

Like **** you do, you horrible ****. :D

 

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

Excellent, and I appreciate it, although it's Saturday . . . on both sides of the Atlantic. Considering the kind of week you must've had to make you think it's Sunday, doubly excellent. :wink:

 

Right, now I'm off to get my tea, and because Yank tea is tragic, it's Yorkshire Gold.

 

Like I said, I've got a lot on. :D


I hope I'd distracted you long enough for your tea to have gone  cold. :( 👍

Edited by Governor Tarkin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

:rofl:

 

Like **** you do, you horrible ****. :D

 

:lol: Laughed way too much more at this than I probably should have, you rat *******. But no seriously, doesn't mean I'm always successful, and I appreciate you charitably nudging me back to less-blinkered reality from time to time.

 

7 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

I hope I'd distracted you long enough for your tea to have gone  cold. :( 👍

 

No dice mate, made the second post while it was steeping, and then it went straight onto my desktop mug warmer. Shan effort, I'm afraid. :biggrin:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 03/10/2020 at 14:32, doctor jambo said:

No nationalism makes sense.

Borders only exist so laws based on shared values can be applied to those within those lines, whilst keeping out those without said values.

However we seem hell bent on throwing up walls between us and those with shared values, whilst letting in those who don’t 

 

I would argue that those shared values are becoming more and more eroded as time goes by. Whether social issues like welfare e.g. bedroom tax or Education, tuition fees or politically with Brexit. Health issues like Drug reform or prescription fees.. the list goes on. 

 

I want Scotland to be able to engage with England as an equal, and that just isn't happening. You can see there is a distinct lack of willingness by this tory government to engage with the devolved administrations in any meaningful sense. The internal markets bill is aimed at overriding devolved areas and firmly centralising as much power as possible with Westminster. 

 

Nationalism is a very dirty word, but I think its important to make clear the distinction between civic nationalism and ethic nationalism. Scottish Independence is about equality and Scotland having its own voice, being able to adequately address the unique challenges it faces. Ethnic nationalism seems to be exemplified by this Conservative government, much of Brexit focused on the negatives of immigration and you've got folk like Priti Patel looking at setting up camps to house asylum seekers. These forms of nationalism couldn't be further apart. IMO the only reason nationalism exists in relation to Scottish Independence is to emphasise that Scotland is a nation rather than a region, which seems to be where Unionists want to dilute our existence into. 

 

Listening to Douglas Ross desperately try and talk up the Union to his colleagues down south sort of reminds me of that yippy annoying puppy the darts about underneath its uninterested mothers feet. This conservative government couldn't be less interested in the union and seems squarely interested in castrating the devolved governments of any actual power and centralising as much power as they possibly can. I'm genuinely concerned we're not going to have a parliament in 10 years time if things continue on their current path. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

The snp are an absolute shambles 

 

Agreed. I think the present incumbents have little appetite for actually pushing for Independence. Seems like there are a lot of careerists who are enjoying the safety of the circa 40% block vote . The rhetoric appeases the activists but there isn't the willpower to actually deliver it. 

 

I suspect if a referendum isn't arranged asap in the next parliament then we could see pro-indy parties springing up taking away that block vote they seem to be taking advantage of which will play directly into the pro-union parites. IMO folk like Ash Denholm aren't what you want to see in politics. Take minor roles but manage to claim huge amounts in expenses and don't even live in the constituency they represent. Its totally wrong and should be a prerequisite of standing for parliament. 

 

EDIT: It seems despite the polling, the union couldn't be in safer hands with the SNP.....

Edited by OTT
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unknown user
1 minute ago, manaliveits105 said:

The snp are an absolute shambles 

 

Your big problem is that the issue of independence is more important to most than the party.

I'll vote SNP until we're free but I'm not into them. If they do something shit I'll still vote for them (within reason).

I'm not affected by what Salmond's been up to, how patronising Sturgeon can be, I just want Scotland to be free to make it's own way.

 

And that's why it's so tough for you guys to truly land a punch, why support for the snp continues to grow despite predictions otherwise. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

coconut doug
4 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Agreed. I think the present incumbents have little appetite for actually pushing for Independence. Seems like there are a lot of careerists who are enjoying the safety of the circa 40% block vote . The rhetoric appeases the activists but there isn't the willpower to actually deliver it. 

 

I suspect if a referendum isn't arranged asap in the next parliament then we could see pro-indy parties springing up taking away that block vote they seem to be taking advantage of which will play directly into the pro-union parites. IMO folk like Ash Denholm aren't what you want to see in politics. Take minor roles but manage to claim huge amounts in expenses and don't even live in the constituency they represent. Its totally wrong and should be a prerequisite of standing for parliament. 

 

EDIT: It seems despite the polling, the union couldn't be in safer hands with the SNP.....

 

Totally agree with both your recent posts. One more chance for the SNP IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Your big problem is that the issue of independence is more important to most than the party.

I'll vote SNP until we're free but I'm not into them. If they do something shit I'll still vote for them (within reason).

I'm not affected by what Salmond's been up to, how patronising Sturgeon can be, I just want Scotland to be free to make it's own way.

 

And that's why it's so tough for you guys to truly land a punch, why support for the snp continues to grow despite predictions otherwise. 

 

I'm much in the same boat. I really don't like the direction the party is going in. This situation with Rhiannon Spears seem to underline a lot of the problems. People have raised multiple legitimate issues, she's lied in her campaign announcement video (claiming she was the founder of GenerationYES). A journalist did a poll which garnered circa 2400 votes. 80% against her. She isn't a viable candidate as she is divisive. But Sturgeon et al are quick to play the 'misogynistic' abuse card. She even tried to get into the Glasgow Cathcart selection before Dornan decided against standing down. She isn't interested in representing Argyll & Bute, its just about getting in. If Anthrax island was representable, I have no doubt Spears would be announcing her candidacy there once she's rejected from from this one.  

 

Politically, I have a lot of faith in  Joanna Cherry and will likely watch with interest post Independence (if we ever bloody get there) where she goes , as I cannot see the SNP remaining a viable party with some of the GRA stuff they seem hell bent on pushing. The control the unelected NEC have over the party is deeply worrying as they are the driving force for these frankly unelectable fringe policies. Post independence the SNP won't have the trump card of being solely focused on being Scotlands voice. I can see Labour and the lib dems seeing a huge resurgence, especially if they can get credible politicians on board again.

Edited by OTT
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unknown user
31 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I'm much in the same boat. I really don't like the direction the party is going in. This situation with Rhiannon Spears seem to underline a lot of the problems. People have raised multiple legitimate issues, she's lied in her campaign announcement video (claiming she was the founder of GenerationYES). A journalist did a poll which garnered circa 2400 votes. 80% against her. She isn't a viable candidate as she is divisive. But Sturgeon et al are quick to play the 'misogynistic' abuse card. She even tried to get into the Glasgow Cathcart selection before Dornan decided against standing down. She isn't interested in representing Argyll & Bute, its just about getting in. If Anthrax island was representable, I have no doubt Spears would be announcing her candidacy there once she's rejected from from this one.  

 

Politically, I have a lot of faith in  Joanna Cherry and will likely watch with interest post Independence (if we ever bloody get there) where she goes , as I cannot see the SNP remaining a viable party with some of the GRA stuff they seem hell bent on pushing. The control the unelected NEC have over the party is deeply worrying as they are the driving force for these frankly unelectable fringe policies. Post independence the SNP won't have the trump card of being solely focused on being Scotlands voice. I can see Labour and the lib dems seeing a huge resurgence, especially if they can get credible politicians on board again.

There are some I'll be watching, Cherry included, Mhairi Black too, strong people who genuinely care.

If the 2 parties you mention go back to more core values I'd agree, if they don't then I think others will take their place further left than either are just now.

 

Things will be different, one of the features of PR governments is they tend to have more small parties often working in coalition so we may well see new entities having influence once the single uniting issue is put to bed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

coconut doug
32 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I'm much in the same boat. I really don't like the direction the party is going in. This situation with Rhiannon Spears seem to underline a lot of the problems. People have raised multiple legitimate issues, she's lied in her campaign announcement video (claiming she was the founder of GenerationYES). A journalist did a poll which garnered circa 2400 votes. 80% against her. She isn't a viable candidate as she is divisive. But Sturgeon et al are quick to play the 'misogynistic' abuse card. She even tried to get into the Glasgow Cathcart selection before Dornan decided against standing down. She isn't interested in representing Argyll & Bute, its just about getting in. If Anthrax island was representable, I have no doubt Spears would be announcing her candidacy there once she's rejected from from this one.  

 

Politically, I have a lot of faith in  Joanna Cherry and will likely watch with interest post Independence (if we ever bloody get there) where she goes , as I cannot see the SNP remaining a viable party with some of the GRA stuff they seem hell bent on pushing. The control the unelected NEC have over the party is deeply worrying as they are the driving force for these frankly unelectable fringe policies. Post independence the SNP won't have the trump card of being solely focused on being Scotlands voice. I can see Labour and the lib dems seeing a huge resurgence, especially if they can get credible politicians on board again.

 

 It seems to me that the SNP have now understood that their main function is to get independence and that once that is achieved they become irrelevant and their party disbands. They are well represented by careerists who will feel little or no reluctance to drag their heels on gaining independence. Surely there has to be a reckoning and that has to be soon and either way it's damaging to the SNP.  Seems to me that just like Margaret Ferrier they are playing for time and trying to extract as much money as possible for their personal benefit.

 

      The Press have largely gone soft on NS in fact they are even talking her up at times. Foreign policy is now to the right of some Tories and their resounding silence on the issues like the treatment of Julian Assange and the proposed war crimes bill are not likely to endear them to traditional Indy supporters. AS would be all over this, pandemic or not talking every opportunity to pour scorn on the most inept government we have ever had.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One for the files @Governor Tarkin

 

Is the growing support for Scottish nationalism based on a wholly explicable desire for a decent government reflecting a decent society?

 

What Kidd is suggesting is that Scotland has not seen a wave of nationalism. Nor, come to that, is support for Scottish independence the opposite of Unionism, which has all its own definitional problems. Rather, it is a desire for decency in government and society.

 

Direct link to the article referenced in the blog post: The twilight of the Union

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
10 hours ago, Justin Z said:

One for the files @Governor Tarkin

 

Is the growing support for Scottish nationalism based on a wholly explicable desire for a decent government reflecting a decent society?

 

What Kidd is suggesting is that Scotland has not seen a wave of nationalism. Nor, come to that, is support for Scottish independence the opposite of Unionism, which has all its own definitional problems. Rather, it is a desire for decency in government and society.

 

Direct link to the article referenced in the blog post: The twilight of the Union

 

That's all very well, but I find it odd that that this desire for decency in government and society magically evaporates on an imaginary line somewhere between Eyemouth and Berwick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jack D and coke
1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

That's all very well, but I find it odd that that this desire for decency in government and society magically evaporates on an imaginary line somewhere between Eyemouth and Berwick.

It doesn’t. They have no get out though. The south and even lots of the north of England now votes Tory. Places that were Labour for 100 years. Now that happened here with Labour too but the tories are now pretty much the ENP, promising them they’re taking back control etc, they’ve tried to get the UKIP voters and in a lot of cases they have. Not saying nobody votes them here but it’s in much smaller numbers and some of it pure protest at the SNP. 
We don’t have the numbers to make any effect whatsoever at U.K. level but we have the ejector seat if you like. 

Edited by jack D and coke
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
18 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

It doesn’t. They have no get out though. The south and even lots of the north of England now votes Tory. Places that were Labour for 100 years. Now that happened here with Labour too but the tories are now pretty much the ENP, promising them they’re taking back control etc, they’ve tried to get the UKIP voters and in a lot of cases they have. Not saying nobody votes them here but it’s in much smaller numbers and some of it pure protest at the SNP. 
We don’t have the numbers to make any effect whatsoever at U.K. level but we have the ejector seat if you like. 

 

It rankles to be honest. It's also a shame that independence represents a get-out or ejector seat rather than an opportunity to improve the lot of the greater portion of the UK's current and future populations. 

From a standpoint of self interest the break up of the UK might represent the only workable solution for Scotland to achieve the decency in government and society talked about above, but from a utilitarian standpoint it's not the ideal solution that it's often sold as.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

jack D and coke
4 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

It rankles to be honest. It's also a shame that independence represents a get-out or ejector seat rather than an opportunity to improve the lot of the greater portion of the UK's current and future populations. 

From a standpoint of self interest the break up of the UK might represent the only workable solution for Scotland to achieve the decency in government and society talked about above, but from a utilitarian standpoint it's not the ideal solution that it's often sold as.

We have no real influence unfortunately regardless of what anyone says. Maybe scotland breaking off will help who knows? I think England has different issues to deal with. They have a lot of immigration and integration problems that we don’t see here. They’ve been fed the nationalistic line with brexit and they’ve swallowed it. The tories have had to try win over the UKIP voters and are driven ever more to the right I honestly don’t blame them sometimes. I’m not trying to say England is anymore racist than us either we are and I’ve been every bit as bad over the years. 
It took me a long time to go the other way mate my old man is Rangers and he’s very pro British, I was as well until a few years ago. If we got another vote and it was No again I wouldn’t lose my shit it’s fair enough. 
I think they should have an all or nothing ref. Everything on the table. Yes and we go on our own, No and we close the Parliament down and accept we’re just like Yorkshire or Cumbria. A region of Britain and put this to bed. The halfway house isn’t doing any good because I honestly don’t see the WM parties ever really gaining foothold in holyrood again. They have to backtrack and flip flop all over the place due to the main government making decision that frankly make them look ridiculous. 
How anyone can vote for Ruth Davidson I have no idea. What an utter fool that is. I’ve never heard her say anything other than No to indyref 2. She mentions it more than anyone from the SNP ever has. Her joining the HOL too what a ****ing joke :lol: 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Governor Tarkin
51 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

We have no real influence unfortunately regardless of what anyone says. Maybe scotland breaking off will help who knows? I think England has different issues to deal with. They have a lot of immigration and integration problems that we don’t see here. They’ve been fed the nationalistic line with brexit and they’ve swallowed it. The tories have had to try win over the UKIP voters and are driven ever more to the right I honestly don’t blame them sometimes. I’m not trying to say England is anymore racist than us either we are and I’ve been every bit as bad over the years. 
It took me a long time to go the other way mate my old man is Rangers and he’s very pro British, I was as well until a few years ago. If we got another vote and it was No again I wouldn’t lose my shit it’s fair enough. 
I think they should have an all or nothing ref. Everything on the table. Yes and we go on our own, No and we close the Parliament down and accept we’re just like Yorkshire or Cumbria. A region of Britain and put this to bed. The halfway house isn’t doing any good because I honestly don’t see the WM parties ever really gaining foothold in holyrood again. They have to backtrack and flip flop all over the place due to the main government making decision that frankly make them look ridiculous. 
How anyone can vote for Ruth Davidson I have no idea. What an utter fool that is. I’ve never heard her say anything other than No to indyref 2. She mentions it more than anyone from the SNP ever has. Her joining the HOL too what a ****ing joke :lol: 

 

The two bits in bold are key here. It's clear that England does have immigration amd intigration issues on a different scale from those up here, but it's also clear that these aren't equal and everywhere. Many of the regions of England themselves could also make a solid case for independence or some sort of devolved regional government. I guess it becomes progressively more difficult to convince regional populations of the value of shared risk, responsibility, and reward when the lions share of the spoils seem to perpetually concentrate around a seemingly remote seat of power - which brings us inevitably to where we find ourselves today. I can't help but find it unfair that I have a potential get-out based largely on a line defined around 800 years ago when my mate a couple of miles down the road does not. It reeks.

 

I agree that the half-way-house as it exists at the moment is not the answer, and would argue for a complete restructuring of central and regional power-relations within the UK as a whole. That we haven't had electoral reform in the shape of some flavour of proportional representation with a stronger regional influence tells it's own story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

doctor jambo
32 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

The two bits in bold are key here. It's clear that England does have immigration amd intigration issues on a different scale from those up here, but it's also clear that these aren't equal and everywhere. Many of the regions of England themselves could also make a solid case for independence or some sort of devolved regional government. I guess it becomes progressively more difficult to convince regional populations of the value of shared risk, responsibility, and reward when the lions share of the spoils seem to perpetually concentrate around a seemingly remote seat of power - which brings us inevitably to where we find ourselves today. I can't help but find it unfair that I have a potential get-out based largely on a line defined around 800 years ago when my mate a couple of miles down the road does not. It reeks.

 

I agree that the half-way-house as it exists at the moment is not the answer, and would argue for a complete restructuring of central and regional power-relations within the UK as a whole. That we haven't had electoral reform in the shape of some flavour of proportional representation with a stronger regional influence tells it's own story.

You could just have a parliament of Northern Britain, make everything north of the watford gap one large devolved area

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




×
×
  • Create New...