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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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38 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

True.  The Nationalists are overlooking the fact that >60% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK compared to 18% EU and 22% the rest of the world.

 

In what reality can leaving your biggest trading partner and joining the EU be considered "stronger by association"?


We would still trade with the UK. Why would that suddenly stop?

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1 hour ago, weehammy said:

Last Saturday’s Times Scotland. Sorry, don’t have an online link.

 

Cheers but i cant get past the paywall.

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53 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Spain would veto our re-entry. That's a pipedream.

That is a myth that has been debunked countless times.

They didn't veto Chezia or Slovakia after they both declared independence from each other in 1992.

They haven't tried to stop Montenegro joining after it's 2008 independence referendum.

Nor have they tried to stop North Macedonia joining after it's 1991 independence referendum.

Try again with a different myth.

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Just now, coconut doug said:

 

Cheers but i cant get past the paywall.

That's what you'll be saying after independence trying to get south!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Just kidding!.

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jack D and coke
8 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

That's what you'll be saying after independence trying to get south!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Just kidding!.

:lol: Not enough of this light heatedness in these discussions. 
I keep saying I’m not going to comment on them anymore it’s utterly pointless, just people trying to wind each other up. 

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1 hour ago, jambos are go! said:

Watched the Scottish News this evening shocking graphic showing the shocking increase in missed waiting times targets in the N H S under this incompetent SN P administration. Also the staggering increase in drug deaths. Add to that the broken promises o n education there is no way this catastrophic Administration deserves re-election.  

 

Looked at the waiting time figures for all 4 countries across a range of parameters. Seems to me Labour in Wales and Unionists in NI are much worse than Scotland and England. Surely shocking and incompetent too. They don't deserve re-election either.  Scotland generally has more stringent standards than England but the direction of travel for waiting times is very similar in both countries. Hard to justify the Tories continuing if that's true. Add that to the 170,000 premature deaths from benefit cuts under the coalition and you can understand why life expectancy is no longer increasing in England. 

 

  Who should we get to replace them?

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Every time they say "I want rid of the Ess Enn Pee" they have no thoughts on who will replace them.

No other party in Scotland is even remotely capable.

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9 minutes ago, Cade said:

Every time they say "I want rid of the Ess Enn Pee" they have no thoughts on who will replace them.

No other party in Scotland is even remotely capable.

Scotland doesn't want Labour or Tory. 

 

But it isn't humiliated enough yet  to vote for independence. 

 

Or can't get independence at the right price. 

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Zlatanable said:

Do you not find it troublesome to predict the actions of countries , within the EU, into the future though? 


Not really, I just go by what they say, and Spain has no intention of vetoing anything, because it has no real relevance to their own situation. I can no more predict the future than you can. There’s nothing to suggest they or any other country would veto us though, quite the opposite in fact.

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Just now, Zlatanable said:

Is that true though? 

I think the EU is against the member polities splitting further into more numerous polities. I think. 

 

I get the 'Hey, Scotland is European!' stuff, but it's more complicated than 'EVERYBODY THAT IS IN THE EU 100% ACCEPTS iSCOTLAND  INTO THE EU' though , I believe. 


They cannot just come out and say it, because Scotland is currently a part of the UK, but they are making it really obvious that they want us as part of the EU. It would actually soften some of the blow from rUK leaving, because we are actually quite a wealthy little nation. Similar to why rUK don’t want us to leave, in fact. 
 

It’s good that we can have this discussion in a calm and polite manner like this. It’s easy to let emotions get in the way of that, and despite our differing opinions, I don’t really want to go down the insults route, especially after reading your contributions to the depression thread, where you come across as a really decent guy.

 

I get triggered too often on here, and I am never proud of myself when I am. Respect.

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12 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Is that true though? 

I think the EU is against the member polities splitting further into more numerous polities. I think. 

 

I get the 'Hey, Scotland is European!' stuff, but it's more complicated than 'EVERYBODY THAT IS IN THE EU 100% ACCEPTS iSCOTLAND  INTO THE EU' though , I believe. 

You have a point Zlat. A wee query, why do you post mostly at nights? Count Zlat 😁. Hope you don't mind me having a wee joke? 

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1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

People are people. Thank you for your kind words.

(I hope you will allow me to point out that Scottish Indepence is built on the back of cruelty and the absence of kindness)


Not sure I get what you mean. Do you mean when Scotland was established as a nation it was built on cruelty and the absence of kindness, or do you mean the modern independence movement is? Either way, I’ll need to know where you are coming from to comment. 

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Just now, Zlatanable said:

I mean, from post 2011, Scottish Independence + SNP, is built upon cruelty (like what happened to Charles Kennedy) or the absence of kindness from people like yourself, perhaps. 

 

And we all know it.

 

 


I think there is a case to make for the Scottish independence movement being rooted in people wanting to break away from the cruelties of the UK system over the last ten years. Deaths through poverty and a culture of nastiness towards immigrants for example. I (perhaps naively) believe that people want independence for all the right reasons. Politicians always disappoint in the end, but for now, I see the independence movement as providing a glimmer of hope for a way to unshackle ourselves from a cruel rightwing system that exists only to make rich people richer, and those less fortunate die.

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1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

Decent excuse. Would you accept cruelty in the furtherance of your cause? 

 

 


I see cruelty every day, it’s saturating. It’s not something I associate with Scottish independence nor the SNP though. Do you believe it is? I’m intrigued by your Kennedy comment earlier. Do you believe SI/SNP we’re responsible for his death?

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3 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Decent excuse. Would you accept cruelty in the furtherance of your cause? 

 

 

The British empire was built on cruelty. One of the most vile, corrupted and inhumane imperialists that ever existed. Ask the Indian people. Duke of Cumberland was wonderful! 

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5 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Eh?......Whit?......has peace broken out on this thread🤣

Seriously, it makes  for much more informative debate.

Good with the bad, it was always thus. 

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1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

I believe Ian Blackford/Nicola Sturgeon/ The SNP are were a factor in his later days, and their influence was cruel, unkind, and deliberately painful. 

 

Do you believe they weren't?

 


I have never really considered that really. Maybe I am missing something or my memory fails me. I don’t remember any particularly cruel actions towards him by the people you mention. If you can send me some links, I’ll read them and give you my honest opinion.

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4 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Hi @Roxy Hearts

 

Cruelty in the past doesn't deny cruelty in the present. 

I'm not sure what you mean by cruelty in the present. I lived through Thatcher who was a vile human being as are some WM politicians now.

Edited by Roxy Hearts
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4 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Seriously?

 

Well, wait and find out the result, OR, you are fine, and bear no responsibility whatsoever, (and the impending collapse of the SNP is MI5 or something?)

I'll leave you with your thoughts. Night, night. 

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17 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


I have never really considered that really. Maybe I am missing something or my memory fails me. I don’t remember any particularly cruel actions towards him by the people you mention. If you can send me some links, I’ll read them and give you my honest opinion.

Certainly Ian Blackford had the finger pointed at him due to his, and or his team, treatment of Kennedy if I remember correctly. There may even be links about it on another thread.

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Daily Express and its constant fake news.

 

Smoke screen to the fact that half of England is under water and BoJo the Coward is nowhere to be seen. 

 

Folks were warned he was useless in a crisis. First one on his watch... where is he? 

 

Even Corbyn managed to visit the places affected by the floods. 

Edited by jumpship
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3 minutes ago, jumpship said:

Daily Express and its constant fake news.

 

Smoke screen to the fact that half of England is under water.........

I hope you can see the irony in your post?!

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3 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Question- Have you ever bought The National in the mistaken belief it is anything more than a stupid fan-sheet?

Don't read newspapers.

 

3 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

I hope you can see the irony in your post?!

Nope. I'm completely oblivious thanks. 👍

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Spoiler

 

👏  Well done the Scottish parliament, where all parties have come together to provide sanitary products free for all females. 

Not all bad this wee parliament.

 

 

 

 

Accidentally inserted the spoiler thingy. I have no idea how to get rid of it. :facepalm:

Edited by ri Alban
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7 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

I believe Ian Blackford/Nicola Sturgeon/ The SNP are were a factor in his later days, and their influence was cruel, unkind, and deliberately painful. 

 

Do you believe they weren't?

 

 

7 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

Certainly Ian Blackford had the finger pointed at him due to his, and or his team, treatment of Kennedy if I remember correctly. There may even be links about it on another thread.


Reading up on the latter stages of Charles Kennedy’s life just leaves me feeling sad. The poor man was going through a terrible and chaotic period of his life, and I don’t think he should have been anywhere near the campaign trail. It was like watching Amy Winehouse slowly unravelling in the public eye. His alcoholism eventually killed him, and it’s something he had been battling for a long time before the election. 
 

The campaign trail itself doesn’t actually look particularly worse than others. I think Menzies Campbell’s comments about the SNP and Blackford’s presence in Kennedy’s life towards the end are ill advised and rather distasteful actually. He and Kennedy must have been pretty close, I suppose, because his words come across as those of a person who is grieving a lost friend. I think he was letting his emotions cloud his judgement. 
 

I don’t see any outright accusations of Blackford and the #wherescharlie thing being responsible for Kennedy's death, which is a saving grace, because that would be ridiculous. Kennedy’s addiction was the reason for his death. At the time of the campaign he was grieving his parents, trying to get access to his son and battling a terrible addiction. He should not have been anywhere near the grim realities of running for election.

 

Its a really sad story, but I don’t think the SNP or Blackford can take the blame for his death. Did they make his life a misery in his final few years? Well maybe to the extent that they were part of a world that Kennedy was struggling to survive in. The electoral trail can damage healthy people with fairly stable lives, and it is no place for someone who is going through the sort of personal traumas and challenges that Kennedy was. There were personal attacks on all sides, as you would expect in modern politics. 

 

Just an extremely sad tale really. 

 

 

Edited by Special Officer Doofy
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jack D and coke

The SNP or Yes movement or any political party are no better or worse than what we’ve seen in the past. The labour parties hounding of John Major when he was going for re-election is among the worst I’ve seen anywhere too. It’s was personal and vile. Was on the back of the poll tax (English rioted over it despite us being the guinea pigs for it) and Tory sleaze allegations, and people have this bitter obsession about the snp. People have short memories or are too young to know. 
Have a gaze across the pond too for nasty campaigns. 
 

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56 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The SNP or Yes movement or any political party are no better or worse than what we’ve seen in the past. The labour parties hounding of John Major when he was going for re-election is among the worst I’ve seen anywhere too. It’s was personal and vile. Was on the back of the poll tax (English rioted over it despite us being the guinea pigs for it) and Tory sleaze allegations, and people have this bitter obsession about the snp. People have short memories or are too young to know. 
Have a gaze across the pond too for nasty campaigns. 
 

The people who vote for Ian Blackford are aware of whatever happened with Charles Kennedy, whom I liked, so I'm sure if there was any issues he wouldn't be voted in. 

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jack D and coke
1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

The people who vote for Ian Blackford are aware of whatever happened with Charles Kennedy, whom I liked, so I'm sure if there was any issues he wouldn't be voted in. 

I’m not a fan of Ian Blackford I’ll be honest. The guy needs removed and replaced from the House of Commons for me. His tone and repetitive sounding voice goes right through me. There’s much better in the snp than him. 
Why that Phillipa woman (keep forgetting her surname) isn’t at the front of the party I just don’t know. 

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They've just released the data on Scottish school leavers 2018-19 and 95% were in a "positive destination"--defined as including higher education, further education, employment, training, personal skills development, and voluntary work--the highest-ever level.

 

Likewise economic background has become the lowest-correlated with school achievement it has ever been in Scotland--in other words, the "attainment gap" between economically advantaged and economically deprived pupils in Scotland has never been smaller, meaning achievement is closer to being on the basis of merit, rather than systemic advantages, than ever before.

 

Education system shambles.

Edited by Justin Z
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Brighton Jambo
54 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

They've just released the data on Scottish school leavers 2018-19 and 95% were in a "positive destination"--defined as including higher education, further education, employment, training, personal skills development, and voluntary work--the highest-ever level.

 

Likewise economic background has become the lowest-correlated with school achievement it has ever been in Scotland--in other words, the "attainment gap" between economically advantaged and economically deprived pupils in Scotland has never been smaller, meaning achievement is closer to being on the basis of merit, rather than systemic advantages, than ever before.

 

Education system shambles.

See this is the problem with supporters of the SNP.  Just simply can’t ever admit that things are not going well.  
 

by almost every other measure the Scottish Government uses education standards are going in the wrong direction.  The people who work in the system are openly shouting about how broken it is.  And yet here you are arguing everyone has it wrong and they are doing a great job in education.  
 

Not saying you personally do this on these other topics but SNP supporters say the same about NHS in Scotland, the hospital shambles, policing, drug deaths, named person scheme, inability to successfully transfer control of benefits etc.

 

the answer is always one of two things:

 

1.  It’s Westminster’s fault (even for devolved areas) 

2.  At least we are better than England.  
 

I don’t mind people supporting them despite the above as the best mechanism for getting independence.  That’s fair game.

 

but don’t insult our intelligence by trying to pretend they are doing a good job and particularly not on education.  

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12 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

 

This article is from NOVEMBER 20, 2018 

Ok so all we need to be concerned about are currency, deficit, debt and unsustainable socialist policies that if reversed would cause all manner of problems in the country...

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14 hours ago, Cade said:

That is a myth that has been debunked countless times.

They didn't veto Chezia or Slovakia after they both declared independence from each other in 1992.

They haven't tried to stop Montenegro joining after it's 2008 independence referendum.

Nor have they tried to stop North Macedonia joining after it's 1991 independence referendum.

Try again with a different myth.

Well there are loads of arguments - deficit, debt, currency, trade, borders - are we going to ship directly to the EU or go through England like we currently do?

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41 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Well there are loads of arguments - deficit, debt, currency, trade, borders - are we going to ship directly to the EU or go through England like we currently do?


If we were independent and in the EU would ship direct from Scotland I would expect. 

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7 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


If we were independent and in the EU would ship direct from Scotland I would expect. 

Would have to be east coast to be cost effective so would need a deepwater port - Houndspoint at S Queensferry is used by Ineos as pipeline, Invergordon at Moray is too far north and Hunterston at Inverclyde is too far out of Glasgow and was originally for coal...So on top of all the rest we haven't got the infrastructure...

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2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

I’m not a fan of Ian Blackford I’ll be honest. The guy needs removed and replaced from the House of Commons for me. His tone and repetitive sounding voice goes right through me. There’s much better in the snp than him. 
Why that Phillipa woman (keep forgetting her surname) isn’t at the front of the party I just don’t know. 

Tommy Shepard anaw. He's a good Kent.

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9 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Would have to be east coast to be cost effective so would need a deepwater port - Houndspoint at S Queensferry is used by Ineos as pipeline, Invergordon at Moray is too far north and Hunterston at Inverclyde is too far out of Glasgow and was originally for coal...So on top of all the rest we haven't got the infrastructure...

And why's that?

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4 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Would have to be east coast to be cost effective so would need a deepwater port - Houndspoint at S Queensferry is used by Ineos as pipeline, Invergordon at Moray is too far north and Hunterston at Inverclyde is too far out of Glasgow and was originally for coal...So on top of all the rest we haven't got the infrastructure...


An independent Scotland would have to build up its infrastructure in many many areas including ports and logistics. I see that as an opportunity though, rather than a hindrance. Build a better and modern infrastructure. Invest in your country so it can step in to world beside other grown up nations and open its doors for trade.

 

In the run up to the independence referendum in 2014 I was interviewed for my opinions on what it would mean for the University, along with some colleagues on both sides of the debate. The main positive driver for me was that we would need to build up our infrastructure and invest heavily in our skills base. Universities would be at the forefront of this, and it would create a great many opportunities for innovation and research and development.

 

Many of the things you have listed are genuine serious challenges that would need to be addressed, but they are far from insurmountable, and many other nations with less resources than our own have managed to meet those challenges head on. Constitutional change is not a snap of the fingers fix, I seriously doubt anyone believes it would be. It would be worth it though imo, and I’d be happy that the Scotland my kids would inherit as adults would be a better place for them to live.

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14 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Would have to be east coast to be cost effective so would need a deepwater port - Houndspoint at S Queensferry is used by Ineos as pipeline, Invergordon at Moray is too far north and Hunterston at Inverclyde is too far out of Glasgow and was originally for coal...So on top of all the rest we haven't got the infrastructure...

How do Ireland ship to the EU, we can go through there and from Edinburgh and from north east to Viking land. Is  Scotland the only country in the world that needs it's neighbour to do everything . Unbelievable defeatist  patter from people.

 

I wish people would just be honest about why they want Scotland in the UK. One thing and one thing only.

Edited by ri Alban
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1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

 

the answer is always one of two things:

 

1.  It’s Westminster’s fault (even for devolved areas) 

2.  At least we are better than England.  
 

I don’t mind people supporting them despite the above as the best mechanism for getting independence.  That’s fair game.

 

but don’t insult our intelligence by trying to pretend they are doing a good job and particularly not on education.  

 

I think I may have said this before, but sure the Govt needs called out if failing, but what is the alternative?  That's why, I think, the better than England thing gets trotted out.

 

What would the Scottish Tories do differently from their southern overlords?

 

One could conclude that while it is shit, if that mob were in control it would be shitter.

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2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:


An independent Scotland would have to build up its infrastructure in many many areas including ports and logistics. I see that as an opportunity though, rather than a hindrance. Build a better and modern infrastructure. Invest in your country so it can step in to world beside other grown up nations and open its doors for trade.

 

In the run up to the independence referendum in 2014 I was interviewed for my opinions on what it would mean for the University, along with some colleagues on both sides of the debate. The main positive driver for me was that we would need to build up our infrastructure and invest heavily in our skills base. Universities would be at the forefront of this, and it would create a great many opportunities for innovation and research and development.

 

Many of the things you have listed are genuine serious challenges that would need to be addressed, but they are far from insurmountable, and many other nations with less resources than our own have managed to meet those challenges head on. Constitutional change is not a snap of the fingers fix, I seriously doubt anyone believes it would be. It would be worth it though imo, and I’d be happy that the Scotland my kids would inherit as adults would be a better place for them to live.

 

You da man!

 

Image result for regular show gif

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Just now, Boris said:

 

You da man!

 

Image result for regular show gif

 

:D

 

A period of investment in industry and infrastructure sounds absolutely fantastic to me! Something to be welcomed.

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10 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

And why's that?

Why? Like why don't we have the infrastructure? Because we've never needed it. Big container ships coming from Rotterdam, Asia or US dock at S Wales (Asia) S of England  (EU) or Liverpool (US). 

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2 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

:D

 

A period of investment in industry and infrastructure sounds absolutely fantastic to me! Something to be welcomed.

No doubt you will be labelled a Keynesian fantasist, but I'm with you on that.

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9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

How do Ireland ship to the EU, we can go through there and from Edinburgh and from north east to Viking land. Is  Scotland the only country in the world that needs it's neighbour to do everything . Unbelievable defeatist  patter from people.

 

I wish people would just be honest about why they want Scotland in the UK. One thing and one thing only.

Economics. I actually like the idea of being independent, but I don't like the ideas of 2-3 generations of massive economic pain to get us there...call me selfish...

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Just now, Boris said:

No doubt you will be labelled a Keynesian fantasist, but I'm with you on that.

 

Whisky glass half full. :D

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jack D and coke
16 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Tommy Shepard anaw. He's a good Kent.

Another one who’s much more likeable. 

2 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Why? Like why don't we have the infrastructure? Because we've never needed it. Big container ships coming from Rotterdam, Asia or US dock at S Wales (Asia) S of England  (EU) or Liverpool (US). 

Isn’t stuff like that good for economies? Building up your infrastructure? Create jobs etc? 
Cant be terrible having to invest heavily surely. 
Weren't the EU going to help Ireland build more stuff like that in the event of brexit meaning they’d just ship direct to and from the ROI? 

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2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

And yet here you are arguing everyone has it wrong and they are doing a great job in education. 

 

Am I? That's funny. I reviewed my post and don't see this at all. Can you point it out to me?

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