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The rise and fall of The SNP.


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Just now, Zlatanable said:

But you know now. 

 

Yes indeed. But I don't want to spoil things. Enjoy the not knowing!  It's more fun?

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3 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

That is one way of looking at the fall and rise of the SNP for sure.

But it isn't the most relevant viewpoint. 

 

You would say that though, I wouldn't exactly class you as a bias free arbiter.

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Just now, Zlatanable said:

Fair. Neither are you, of course. 

But the SNP have been the party in power in Scotland since 2007. 

 

Nobody gets away with failures for that long.  And the list of real, actual life failures, keeps getting bigger.

 

You, and like-minded folk, are running two realities simultaneously. The 'Scotland can make it's own decisions' one, and the 'Scotland has made it's own decisions, and we have half-assed it to f^ck' one. 

 

IMHO, we are on the brink of these two realities colliding at last. The SNP will combust, and tear itself to shreds. 

 

 

 

I'm not, but then I'm not saying something isn't relevant when it's the very core of the matter.

 

The SNP and independence are two very different things, their governance has absolutely zero to do with whether scotland could be a successful independent country.

 

The SNP might die one day, the independence movement never will.

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2 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

This thread is called 'The rise and fall of the SNP' 

 

Indeed, still the biggest party in Scotland IIRC. My point's still very, very valid, in fact it's the only one that really matters on the subject.

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Just now, Zlatanable said:

The SNP are the 'biggest' party in Scotland. 

They have been in power for over 13 years too.

 

Your point, I think, was about Scottish Independence wasn't it. (I think you said the SNP and Scottish independence were separate)

But this topic is about the failure of the SNP and it's, Imo, impending self-implosion.

 

Yep, and my point is that it's irrelevant to what you actually fear so much, and that's ignoring the fact that this thread's simply wishful thinking.

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4 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

This thread isn't wishful thinking, it's based on the reality of current Scottish life and politics. 

 

Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP,  have been in charge of many failures. IMO, people that want Scottish Independence have effectively enabled these failures to go unpunished. 

But these failures, over the last 13 years, are actually real, and have real world consequences, that can't be voted away. 

 

These consequences are now unavoidable to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. 

 

I doubt it, at the moment they're the vehicle that nationalists the independence movement are attached to, and the independence movement are going nowhere.

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1 hour ago, Zlatanable said:

The SNP are the 'biggest' party in Scotland. 

They have been in power for over 13 years too.

 

Your point, I think, was about Scottish Independence wasn't it. (I think you said the SNP and Scottish independence were separate)

But this topic is about the failure of the SNP and it's, Imo, impending self-implosion.

 

 

During the Indyref I voted Yes for an independent Scotland, not to vote the SNP into government. Post independence I'll be voting, like others for Labour or the Greens. So there's your rise and fall of the SNP. It comes from independence.

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1 minute ago, Zlatanable said:

You @ri Alban more than most, are blind to the reality here and now. 

 

The people that live in Scotland have rejected Independence. 

 

The longer anyone continues to ignore this democratic reality, the worse it will become for you. 

Your delusions are affecting your kneecaps. Show some pride and get off your knees.

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

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4 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

You @ri Alban more than most, are blind to the reality here and now. 

 

The people that live in Scotland have rejected Independence. 

 

The longer anyone continues to ignore this democratic reality, the worse it will become for you. 

The UK and Scotland's place in it you offered in 2014, no longer exists. You have caused your own Union to fail. You! So...

 

 

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

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3 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

So you are essentially saying that the Conservative party in Scotland, and any party, is equally valid. 

And they all exist, no matter what happens at the elections. 

:what:

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The rise and rise of the SNP, the Saviours of Scotland. The UK has been read it's last rites. 

Unlucky traitors, you failed to kill your own country.

 

 

 

Tick Tock!!!

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12 hours ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The GERS figures are commissioned by the Scottish govt. Which part of Scotland do you think is this thriving, innovative hub that is being held back by nasty Boris and his Toaaarry party?  If we had a proper devolved government here rather than the swivel-eyed , single issue protest party that is in power, it would be negotiating with the UK govt about the benefits of coming out of the Common Fisheries Policy and the other myriad powers that are being repatriated after leaving the EU.

 

The GERS figures don't help one way or another, I don't think. They are based on the uk as a whole and don't provide insight into what financial state scotland would if it was completely independent. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

Well as in football Zlatan has rattled a few cages here! :laugh:

It's a conversation mate, dont see much rattlage at all. You should try it!

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I have to say though, trying to portray the fall of the snp as inevitable is hopeful at best, naive at worst. This portrayal is contradicted by every single poll and election in recent times. 

 

How about the rise and fall of the union? Because we all know that is inevitable, simply by looking at the demographics. Recent polls indicate 60-65% of under 50s support independence. Settled will of the people anyone? It might not happen this year, the next or even the year after. But it is coming. 

Edited by jambogaza
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1 hour ago, jambogaza said:

I have to say though, trying to portray the fall of the snp as inevitable is hopeful at best, naive at worst. This portrayal is contradicted by every single poll and election in recent times. 

 

How about the rise and fall of the union? Because we all know that is inevitable, simply by looking at the demographics. Recent polls indicate 60-65% of under 50s support independence. Settled will of the people anyone? It might not happen this year, the next or even the year after. But it is coming. 

That is based on the assumption that younger people retain the same views as they grow older. That doesn't tend to happen with issues like the constitution. Once they have mortgages, jobs and other commitments they may well be looking at the issue through the other end of the telescope. It's the easiest thing in the world to vote for Corbyn, the SNP or Bernie Sanders when you are young  but once you get a bit of life experience behind you then things can change. 

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Just now, Enzo Chiefo said:

That is based on the assumption that younger people retain the same views as they grow older. That doesn't tend to happen with issues like the constitution. Once they have mortgages, jobs and other commitments they may well be looking at the issue through the other end of the telescope. It's the easiest thing in the world to vote for Corbyn, the SNP or Bernie Sanders when you are young  but once you get a bit of life experience behind you then things can change. 

 

Certainly doesn't apply to me. I voted yes in 2014 when I lived in a rented flat. I now have my 2nd mortgage and I'd still vote yes.

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1 hour ago, jambogaza said:

 

The GERS figures don't help one way or another, I don't think. They are based on the uk as a whole and don't provide insight into what financial state scotland would if it was completely independent. 

 

They do though highlight the amounts we raise and spend. The huge gulf is met by rUK taxpayers but that's what "pooling and sharing" is all about. 40 years ago we were punching above our weight but not now. 

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1 minute ago, jambogaza said:

 

Certainly doesn't apply to me. I voted yes in 2014 when I lived in a rented flat. I now have my 2nd mortgage and I'd still vote yes.

Of course it doesn't apply to everyone and there were plenty young folk who voted No and older Yes voters.  In the interests of fairness, however, any future question will be a Leave/Remain option

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7 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

They do though highlight the amounts we raise and spend. The huge gulf is met by rUK taxpayers but that's what "pooling and sharing" is all about. 40 years ago we were punching above our weight but not now. 

 

I'm not sure it is completely reliable. They're estimates at best. VAT returns are not submitted separately in Scotland, for example. So there is no factual way of knowing what Scotland raises. There also aren't border checks in Carlisle so who knows what the extent of our exports are? 

 

A fiscally independent scotland could make different economic choices that boost the economy, for example a friendlier immigration policy which most businesses in Scotland are saying is needed. 

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25 minutes ago, jambogaza said:

 

I'm not sure it is completely reliable. They're estimates at best. VAT returns are not submitted separately in Scotland, for example. So there is no factual way of knowing what Scotland raises. There also aren't border checks in Carlisle so who knows what the extent of our exports are? 

 

A fiscally independent scotland could make different economic choices that boost the economy, for example a friendlier immigration policy which most businesses in Scotland are saying is needed. 

They always seen to forget we import £65b from rUk. A wee country of 5m compared to the rUK a combined 62m spending £50b on Scotland. I wonder what happen would be if companies like Sainsbury's and Asda didn't have access to Scotland to sell us products from down south and keep the profit down south. Maybe a border is what Scotland needs. Stop the UK from taxing our exports abroad at English ports. But not to worry well soon find out what the UK has done to Scotland, post independence. 

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8 hours ago, frankblack said:

Utter bollocks quote which backs up what I said about the EU using Scotland as a pawn in Brexit negotiations.

 

Sturgeon needs to stock up on the bricks and mortar for the border wall needing built at Berwick.

 

 

No Frank. What you're trying to push is bollocks.

 

“Emotionally, I have no doubt everyone would be enthusiastic here, in Brussels and more widely in Europe, but still we have treaties and formalities. But if you ask me about our emotions, there’s a genuine feeling. You will witness only, I think, empathy.”

 

Literal quote in the article. He can't outright say it but that is as close as any politician will go to saying its a certainty. 

 

Brexit is going to be horrendous not just for Scotland but for the whole UK economy. Particularly with folk like Patel, Johnson and Cummings running the show. Joining the EU is the only way to stabilise our economy in light of the path taken by voters south of the border. I mean Christ, you have the NFU acknowledging that this isn't going to be good and they're dyed in the wool tories.

 

Murdo Fraser (Scottish Tory!!) was saying that the immigration policies being pushed by Johnson and co are 'inappropriate' for Scotland. This is because Scotland needs more people of working age to compensate for its aging population. Johnsons plans and points system make this bloody nigh on impossible. Scotland and England both fundamentally have different needs and that should highlight that this union isn't working in the interests of both nations any longer. 

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Governor Tarkin
4 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

The people in Scotland that support Scottish Independence, have broken the link between competence and power. 

 

:D

 

An often uncomfortable truth.

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To be honest, free higher education and a determination to protect the NHS from privatisation are streets ahead of any policies from the other parties imo. Those alone are vote winners for me. Wanting to be a part of the EU and pledging to stop the rise of the pension age and increase the amount received in line with the western EU countries just cements it for me.

 

That and I want independence.

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Don't like the SNP?

Don't vote for them.

Unimpressed that there is no creditable opposition in Scotland?

Join one of the other parties and work to improve them from within.

 

You cannae just whine that you hate the SNP when all the stats say that they continue to resonate with most voters and all other parties are losing votes.

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Space Mackerel

What a thread! I love a good ding dong on here. :lol:

 

The Union is finished btw. Just a matter of time. The only subsidy junkies are the Scots Unionists on here.

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11 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

What a thread! I love a good ding dong on here. :lol:

 

The Union is finished btw. Just a matter of time. The only subsidy junkies are the Scots Unionists on here.

 

They are desperate to conceal the case for scottish independence underneath the image of the SNP. They really do seem to be running out of road. 

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11 hours ago, JustinT said:

Calling people 'weirdo's' is in itself a very weird thing to do. Its what the snp are all about though. Its the surefire sign of dictatorship by those who cannot win an argument by way of reason and democratic free thinking.. Its all about acquiring separation no matter what for you isn't it?

Don't know about the SNP as not a member but they are the only Scottish party I can vote for and have shown better Goverment than any unionists. 

 

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8 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

The SNP are the 'biggest' party in Scotland. 

They have been in power for over 13 years too.

 

Your point, I think, was about Scottish Independence wasn't it. (I think you said the SNP and Scottish independence were separate)

But this topic is about the failure of the SNP and it's, Imo, impending self-implosion.

 

 

Bring it on - the sooner the better.

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Ainsley Harriott
2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

What a thread! I love a good ding dong on here. :lol:

 

The Union is finished btw. Just a matter of time. The only subsidy junkies are the Scots Unionists on here.

I think you're wrong there. Support for the SNP and independence sore to over 60% among our scrounging community.

 

 

140923-jpeg3.jpg

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11 hours ago, ri Alban said:

Nae luck, Scotland wants none of your British Nationalist Tory racist scum.

 

Tick Tock!!!

Well if that's not racist I don;t know what is.

Perhaps you should join the people at Parkhead hey had a banner like that.

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maroonlegions

The only thing that's going to fall is workers pay and working conditions, thats if a lot of folk dont lose their fecking jobs first.

 

 

2 of the  Worst Hit Cities;

 

Glasgow: 24,612

London: 22,245

 

 

 

 

safe_image.php?d=AQBVOq15adMtbl03&w=540&

 

Edited by maroonlegions
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maroonlegions
8 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Have you checked this one?

Have you.

I see Tory Brexiteers are claiming fake news.. If it is then its well done.

 

Scotland voted to remain remember..

Edited by maroonlegions
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1 minute ago, maroonlegions said:

Have you.

I see Tory Brexiteers are claiming fake news.. If it is then its well done.

 

Scotland voted to remain remember..

Ay ok🤣

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42 minutes ago, Ainsley Harriott said:

I think you're wrong there. Support for the SNP and independence sore to over 60% among our scrounging community.

 

 

140923-jpeg3.jpg

 

I don't think this statement is supported by the evidence in your graphs. Having read the source of these graphs it seems to me that you cannot tell how our "scrounging community" voted. All we have is a correlation between out of work benefit claimants and the proportion of people voting Yes in 2014. further extrapolation of figures is problematical for me especially as the local authority with the highest vote for Indy only has the fifth highest proportion of out of work benefit claimants. It may be an outlier but it is also true that two local authorities with higher levels of out of work claimants had a majority who voted no.

 

   The correlatioon coefficient though does show a link but a different relationship to that claimed by you. Here's a quote from the source "As the relevant chart shows, the areas with the highest vote share for the SNP in the 2014 European Parliament election did not actually see the strongest support for independence." Support for the SNP and support for Indy are not the same thing though there are obviously links. A graph showing a correlation between out of work benefit claimants and percentage Yes vote does not show that support for the  "SNP and independence sore to over 60% among our scrounging community." as you claim.

 

          In any case i've always thought that biggest factor in support for Indy was our cult like hatred of the English. That's a theory frequently put forward on here. Surely if there was any truth in it there would be a correlation between the number of English born in a local authority and the level of support for Indy.

 

   It might also be worth noting that calling those who receive benefits due to being out of work "scroungers" and then trying to associate scroungers with Indy supporters is really poor stuff. Maybe if you have to apply for state benefits and somebody calls you a scrounger you will appreciate just how callous your comment appears. Tens of thousands of people have died because of reductions to benefits some of whom have committed suicide rather than be considered a burden on the state. Our unemployment rate is i believe the lowest ever recorded and so those falling into the category you describe as scoungers is smaller than ever and will have a disproportionately smaller impact on voting patterns even if your assertion were true. 

   

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Nucky Thompson

Independence aside, the SNP are absolutely shit at running the country.

People will vote for them in a GE to have a voice in Westminster, but surely people will wake up when it comes to the Holyrood elections.

 

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6 hours ago, jambogaza said:

 

I'm not sure it is completely reliable. They're estimates at best. VAT returns are not submitted separately in Scotland, for example. So there is no factual way of knowing what Scotland raises. There also aren't border checks in Carlisle so who knows what the extent of our exports are? 

 

A fiscally independent scotland could make different economic choices that boost the economy, for example a friendlier immigration policy which most businesses in Scotland are saying is needed. 

 

 

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2019/12/what-gers-can-and-cannot-tell-us.html

 

Have a wee read of that and then come back and see if you still think GERS tells us nothing about Scotland

 

Indy Scotland can do things differently for sure, so what would they do differently and how much would it cost to do so? We know the starting point, explain how we make up the loss of £12bn to start with once we're out of the UK. 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Nucky Thompson said:

Independence aside, the SNP are absolutely shit at running the country.

People will vote for them in a GE to have a voice in Westminster, but surely people will wake up when it comes to the Holyrood elections.

 

Or......perhaps not

Scottish Labour are falling off sharply, LibDems are falling a bit slower.  

Most of these voters are going to the SNP, with a few of them going Tory.

There is no viable opposition in Scotland.

The Scottish Tories have re-branded themselves as a single issue party of protest with "Independence Never!" being their one and only policy.

LgYji9v.pngaL3BhBG.png

 

Edited by Cade
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1 hour ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

 

https://chokkablog.blogspot.com/2019/12/what-gers-can-and-cannot-tell-us.html

 

Have a wee read of that and then come back and see if you still think GERS tells us nothing about Scotland

 

Indy Scotland can do things differently for sure, so what would they do differently and how much would it cost to do so? We know the starting point, explain how we make up the loss of £12bn to start with once we're out of the UK. 

 

 

£12bn to start with and then  paying tariffs to export to the UK, no EU membership, no trade agreements

Many  would not stay. Many would keep their UK pounds, their standard of living, their UK passport and with a heavy heart leave the place they love and leave the "FREEDOM" fighters to enter their unknown rather scary future. And it's likely to be the ones that are on the higher rates taxes that will leave. 

If anyone thinks BREXIT is complicated........ you ain't seen nothing yet.

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jack D and coke
5 minutes ago, H2 said:

£12bn to start with and then  paying tariffs to export to the UK, no EU membership, no trade agreements

Many  would not stay. Many would keep their UK pounds, their standard of living, their UK passport and with a heavy heart leave the place they love and leave the "FREEDOM" fighters to enter their unknown rather scary future. And it's likely to be the ones that are on the higher rates taxes that will leave. 

If anyone thinks BREXIT is complicated........ you ain't seen nothing yet.

So Britain thinks leaving the eu will see no tariffs anywhere or believe there shouldn’t be any and is blaming big bad EU if it won’t play ball....but they’ll punish us?  That how it’s gonna go? We are just not allowed to take back any powers or else but it’s all great for the uk? 

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