Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Enzo Chiefo]

26 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Crazy. Employers expecting people to turn up for work are "hassling" them. In Germany and France two thirds of office workers are back in their offices. In  the UK one third are. 

Exactly. Sometimes they forget who is working for whom. It isn't an entitlement. 

[kila]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

Exactly. Sometimes they forget who is working for whom. It isn't an entitlement. 

 

It is more there are limitations to shared office numbers, and big open plan is going to become a thing of the past.

 

More are wanting to be back in the office at my work but we have to follow rules on how many are in at each time.

[skinnybob72]

It's not too hard to consider that a lot of the jobs being done by people working from home in Edinburgh and the Lothians could also be done by people working from home in Mumbai, etc at a fraction of the cost - and let's not kid ourselves that companies won't be thinking along these lines. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, kila said:

 

It is more there are limitations to shared office numbers, and big open plan is going to become a thing of the past.

 

More are wanting to be back in the office at my work but we have to follow rules on how many are in at each time.

The last point seems sensible. But the leap to saying  big open plan is  a thing of the past? I guess many of those who have returned to work in Germany and France are in big open plan. 

We will see. I suspect the impact of Covid19 will not transform the world to the extent that many seem to think.

Over 80,000 died of flu in 1968. Life went on pretty much as normal.

But then there was no internet or social media back then.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Bull's-eye]

8 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The last point seems sensible. But the leap to saying  big open plan is  a thing of the past? I guess many of those who have returned to work in Germany and France are in big open plan. 

We will see. I suspect the impact of Covid19 will not transform the world to the extent that many seem to think.

Over 80,000 died of flu in 1968. Life went on pretty much as normal.

But then there was no internet or social media back then.

 

 

Which begs the question.

 

Who's tits did you bore off back in the day ?

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

Not being in the office doesn't mean they aren't working. 

Have you ever worked in an office or indeed any work.environment? Some work hard. Some work well. Some work as little as they can get away with. The last must be loving " working from home".

 

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Bull's-eye said:

 

Which begs the question.

 

Who's tits did you bore off back in the day ?

Thanks for that incisive contribution.

 

 

 

[Bull's-eye]

17 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Thanks for that incisive contribution.

 

 

 

 

Thank you. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

31 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Have you ever worked in an office or indeed any work.environment? Some work hard. Some work well. Some work as little as they can get away with. The last must be loving " working from home".

 

The same ones who, in my experience of wfh over the last few months, always have system/broadband etc issues. Who can argue with them? Wfh is, without doubt , a shirker's dream come true. The sooner all of us get back to normal, the better.  

[coconut doug]

16 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

This week > 1200 new cases, 12 deaths.

overall estimate of 4 million infected  with 41000 deaths.

study today showing in healthy children mortality is 0. Like literally 0.

 

The figures you quoted were wrong by more than two orders of magnitude. The death rate in the UK is around 13% of "known cases".

 

There have been more than 1200 cases on some days this week and the infection levels are rising. This lot of figures(above) are also hugely inaccurate. You are under reporting reality by about a factor of six or seven.

 

Estimates are not known cases as you claimed and nobody knows for sure how many are or have been infected unless of course you know different.

 

If your original figures had been correct then the Uk would be in herd immunity territory and the infection levels would drop as a result. Infection levels are rising.

 

Some children have died so it is not "literally zero" and for all age groups the mortality rate amongst the healthy is small. It is the comorbidities and underlying health problems that kill almost everybody as Covid has weakened them rather than killed them. For that reason it is very difficult to accurately attribute death to Covid. Some who have died were unaware of their underlying problems and  others who remain in our community would be left more vulnerable if your proposals were adopted.

 

You seem very sure that the inevitable loss of life and debilitation that your proposals would create is justified because of a temporary loss of marginal freedoms and economic slowdown. I find your level of certainty difficult to appreciate given your grasp of numbers 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

The figures you quoted were wrong by more than two orders of magnitude. The death rate in the UK is around 13% of "known cases".

 

There have been more than 1200 cases on some days this week and the infection levels are rising. This lot of figures(above) are also hugely inaccurate. You are under reporting reality by about a factor of six or seven.

 

Estimates are not known cases as you claimed and nobody knows for sure how many are or have been infected unless of course you know different.

 

If your original figures had been correct then the Uk would be in herd immunity territory and the infection levels would drop as a result. Infection levels are rising.

 

Some children have died so it is not "literally zero" and for all age groups the mortality rate amongst the healthy is small. It is the comorbidities and underlying health problems that kill almost everybody as Covid has weakened them rather than killed them. For that reason it is very difficult to accurately attribute death to Covid. Some who have died were unaware of their underlying problems and  others who remain in our community would be left more vulnerable if your proposals were adopted.

 

You seem very sure that the inevitable loss of life and debilitation that your proposals would create is justified because of a temporary loss of marginal freedoms and economic slowdown. I find your level of certainty difficult to appreciate given your grasp of numbers 

So, if you want to base your comments on "known cases", they equate to 0.55% of the entire UK population. 0.55%, of whom 13%, using your figures, have sadly died,  the vast majority having had serious existing medical conditions.  

These figures do not, in any way, justify the economic cost to the country or , more importantly,  the human cost to tens of thousands of people who already suffer from far more serious conditions than Covid but who have been denied hospital tests or treatment,  because of an unjustified,  national obsession amongst politicians and modelling "scientists " who have rushed to embrace a shiny, new disease that is nowhere near the public health threat that they seem determined to prove it is.

[TheOak88]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

Have you ever worked in an office or indeed any work.environment? Some work hard. Some work well. Some work as little as they can get away with. The last must be loving " working from home".

 

 

Not sure of your point. As you say, there are lazy people in any work environment. In my experience, the lazy people will shy away from doing work whether they are in the office, or at home. Regardless of where they work, you are getting very little quality productivity out of those people. 

 

The decent honest grafters in the office (about 90% of people IME) will work hard whether they are in the office or at home. In fact, the happier you make them (improve their work life balance etc) you may be able to get even more out of them than previously, an extra hour a day of work rather than sitting on a bus commuting to the office etc. 

 

There is no point running your business to accommodate  the small percentage of slackers in the workforce. No matter what you do (eg force them into the office everyday) you will not get quality work out of them as they are not interested. Instead, you need to focus on how to get the most out of the other 90% of your workforce, and if WFH is a part of that, you would be daft to not go with it. 

[coconut doug]

2 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

So, if you want to base your comments on "known cases", they equate to 0.55% of the entire UK population. 0.55%, of whom 13%, using your figures, have sadly died,  the vast majority having had serious existing medical conditions.  

These figures do not, in any way, justify the economic cost to the country or , more importantly,  the human cost to tens of thousands of people who already suffer from far more serious conditions than Covid but who have been denied hospital tests or treatment,  because of an unjustified,  national obsession amongst politicians and modelling "scientists " who have rushed to embrace a shiny, new disease that is nowhere near the public health threat that they seem determined to prove it is.

 

My figures are correct. The Dr told us that 0.1% of known cases resulted in death. The figure is approximately 13%, checkable on worldometers.

These figures have changed over time and the current rate is now around 1%, which should be much more manageable and allow a near complete return of normal Health services. There was an over reaction originally but that was understandable in my opinion as they did not react quickly enough with lockdown and could not be sure of the scale of the pandemic. The current shortfall in regular medical provision is because we cannot react quickly or flexibly enough.

      I dont understand why most medical faciliies are not nearly back to normal but blaming the cautious approach to Covid for this shortfall is not right. What are the managers doing? Where are the health professionals deployed? We've even freed up additional capacity due to thousands of our most dependent dying prematurely. I really don't see in the current circumstances why it seems to be one or the other. Covid pressure on the NHS is currently not heavy.

[jake]

7 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Or outlaw-esque?

That's the one .

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The same ones who, in my experience of wfh over the last few months, always have system/broadband etc issues. Who can argue with them? Wfh is, without doubt , a shirker's dream come true. The sooner all of us get back to normal, the better.  

Very true re the slackers . A few from my work have apparently had “ it “ issues and therefore not “ worked “ as such for some days st a time . The usual slackers 

[Unknown user]

2 hours ago, skinnybob72 said:

It's not too hard to consider that a lot of the jobs being done by people working from home in Edinburgh and the Lothians could also be done by people working from home in Mumbai, etc at a fraction of the cost - and let's not kid ourselves that companies won't be thinking along these lines. 

 

That's not realistic IMO. I got sent to Mumbai to give training a few years ago, people live in comparative poverty, they don't have the type of Internet connections at home that would be needed, not to mention the overcrowded conditions or the fear of giving poor people expensive equipment to take home. I got invited to the big manager's house - we'd class it as a shithole, I hate to think what the poor ones were like. 

 

Quite apart from that the companies I've been involved in have stepped away from Indian call centres etc because they're culturally too different and a nightmare to get working the way we do without constant supervision.

As an example, I had to give training and coaching to a call centre of people who were answering calls from the UK and had been for over a year. I got asked what Scotland was, swear to ****

[graygo]

1 hour ago, coconut doug said:

 

My figures are correct. The Dr told us that 0.1% of known cases resulted in death. The figure is approximately 13%, checkable on worldometers.

These figures have changed over time and the current rate is now around 1%, which should be much more manageable and allow a near complete return of normal Health services. There was an over reaction originally but that was understandable in my opinion as they did not react quickly enough with lockdown and could not be sure of the scale of the pandemic. The current shortfall in regular medical provision is because we cannot react quickly or flexibly enough.

      I dont understand why most medical faciliies are not nearly back to normal but blaming the cautious approach to Covid for this shortfall is not right. What are the managers doing? Where are the health professionals deployed? We've even freed up additional capacity due to thousands of our most dependent dying prematurely. I really don't see in the current circumstances why it seems to be one or the other. Covid pressure on the NHS is currently not heavy.

 

This will be the second time I've said this so if I'm wrong then I'll be due a double apology for saying it.

It wasn't the Dr who quoted the 0.1% figure.

Can you quote the post where he did and I'll have a slice of humble pie.

[ri Alban]

On 27/08/2020 at 20:01, doctor jambo said:

Government scientists are wrong all the time.

so are experts.

cholesterol good - cholesterol bad

some alcohol good - some alcohol bad

HRT good- HRT bad

mesh repairs and the list goes on

 

the key is realising when you are wrong and holding your hands up.

Covid has a mortality of less than 0.1% in UK at present of known cases, and will be even lower as the majority have no symptoms so are not tested.

 

So what the actual living **** are we doing ?

 

@graygo

[graygo]

On 27/08/2020 at 20:01, doctor jambo said:

Government scientists are wrong all the time.

so are experts.

cholesterol good - cholesterol bad

some alcohol good - some alcohol bad

HRT good- HRT bad

mesh repairs and the list goes on

 

the key is realising when you are wrong and holding your hands up.

Covid has a mortality of less than 0.1% in UK at present of known cases, and will be even lower as the majority have no symptoms so are not tested.

 

So what the actual living **** are we doing ?

 

 

Shit, he did say it. Double apologies all round. ☹️

[graygo]

9 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

@graygo

 

You found it before me. 😁

[ri Alban]

Just now, graygo said:

 

You found it before me. 😁

I just remembered the BS the doc has been pedalling, lately.

If he's a GP, he needs his licence revoked, immediately! 

[The Internet]

8 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Have you ever worked in an office or indeed any work.environment? Some work hard. Some work well. Some work as little as they can get away with. The last must be loving " working from home".

 

 

Only for my entire adult life. Sure some will be taking the piss, but at the end of the day if the work isn't getting done it doesn't matter if you're in the office or not. It will be noticed and dealt with. It's a typical old school attitude to put quote marks round working from home, looking down on people as usual. 

[Governor Tarkin]

5 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I just remembered the BS the doc has been pedalling, lately.

If he's a GP, he needs his licence revoked, immediately! 

 

There's a fair chance he's Josef Mengele posting from his Brazilian hideout.

 

Everyone knows Mengele had a Hearts season book.

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Governor Tarkin

[doctor jambo]

Darn feckin right I am

[doctor jambo]

SAGE predicting 85000 Covid deaths this winter with “‘measures” to restrict non household contacts considered until at least March2021 .

whoopdy feckin doo. 
considering wave 1 didn’t manage it with delayed lockdown, football, foreign travel etc I think it’s more utter bs

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Hungary are closing their borders to all foreigners from this Tuesday, I wonder if others follow suit, now that the main tourist season is almost past.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/08/28/hungary-to-close-its-borders-in-bid-to-curb-covid-19-resurgence

 

[doctor jambo]

22 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

I think they said it’s not a prediction, rather a model of a potential scenario. The government need to be prepared for potential bad outcomes. 

Like trying to pay pensions and fund the Nhs with a perma locked economy and mass unemployment you mean?

[AlphonseCapone]

Aye, lazy folk in offices are only lazy now they are at home. Certainly don't see any of that in the office. 

 

How many of the folk desperate that folk get back to the office are actually in a job where you are WFH just now? 

[vegas-voss]

46 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

SAGE predicting 85000 Covid deaths this winter with “‘measures” to restrict non household contacts considered until at least March2021 .

whoopdy feckin doo. 
considering wave 1 didn’t manage it with delayed lockdown, football, foreign travel etc I think it’s more utter bs

Except they said its important to realise its not a prediction it is a scenario they have put forward.

[vegas-voss]

33% drop in GDP in the US. Biggest recession ever i wonder where the UK is heading.

[doctor jambo]

1 minute ago, vegas-voss said:

Except they said its important to realise its not a prediction it is a scenario they have put forward.

A scenario where the mortality is double what the first wave did- even though we took zero precautions at the start?

Its scaremongering. Otherwise you would qualify such postulations with “extremely unlikely ‘.

More fears of th Nhs being overwhelmed while it runs at half capacity and people are still not getting cancer treatment .

 

[Captain Sausage]

I think the whole WFH thing has taught my company that it is possible, albeit probably most effective if there is some home working, some office working. 
 

That works great for me as when we return to the UK, we will be moving to a new house and we can look a little bit further our now. That means significantly more house for our money and a nicer area to live in. 
 

As for the lazy guys, we knew who they were before and lockdown has only shown it up.

[doctor jambo]

4 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

33% drop in GDP in the US. Biggest recession ever i wonder where the UK is heading.

I don’t think anyone cares as long as we “stay safe”.

Wait until the real payback begins,  - ultra austerity. 
Pension cuts, raised retirement age, benefit cuts . 
 

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

33% drop in GDP in the US. Biggest recession ever i wonder where the UK is heading.

It’s a train running out of track. The ones who want this complete insanity to continue better hope someone magics up a vaccine. 

[vegas-voss]

1 minute ago, doctor jambo said:

A scenario where the mortality is double what the first wave did- even though we took zero precautions at the start?

Its scaremongering. Otherwise you would qualify such postulations with “extremely unlikely ‘.

More fears of th Nhs being overwhelmed while it runs at half capacity and people are still not getting cancer treatment .

 

Just like always there will be more than the one scenario but the media will run with the worst one.Look no matter what you think of predictions 65k deaths so far is horrendous.Will a 2nd wave ( dont like the saying as we are still in the first phase when you see how i infection rates are ) might not be severe but as always they will be dammed if they dont prepare and then be dammed if they do.

[vegas-voss]

5 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I don’t think anyone cares as long as we “stay safe”.

Wait until the real payback begins,  - ultra austerity. 
Pension cuts, raised retirement age, benefit cuts . 
 

Have said for a long time there is no easy answers.Its alright posting on here such and such but the reality is its ****ing shit right now whatever is decided.

Edited August 29, 2020 by vegas-voss

[Des Lynam]

9 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

UK dropped by 20%, to officially start the recession. I would expect it to bounce back next quarter. However, I suspect we will see a double dip recession. 
 

Mucho Quantitive easing. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

23 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

I don’t think anyone cares as long as we “stay safe”.

Wait until the real payback begins,  - ultra austerity. 
Pension cuts, raised retirement age, benefit cuts . 
 

The Tory wet dream coupled with Brexit . They will be in hog heaven . 

[Francis Albert]

27 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Just like always there will be more than the one scenario but the media will run with the worst one.Look no matter what you think of predictions 65k deaths so far is horrendous.Will a 2nd wave ( dont like the saying as we are still in the first phase when you see how i infection rates are ) might not be severe but as always they will be dammed if they dont prepare and then be dammed if they do.

You are right the media will always report the worst scenario. But aren't you indulging in a bit of pot calling kettle black? 65k deaths? I think that is the excess deaths figure which includes deaths resulting from the effective closure of much of the NHS for treatments of non-Covid ilnesses and diseases. Many thousands more will die as a result of delayed and non-treatment. Not to mention the impact of lockdown on the economy. 

Currently more than 99% of people are dying of non-Covid ilnesses and diseases. Many times more are dying of flu and pneumonia than of Covid. Why are only Covid deaths "horrendous"? Or particularly horrendous?

Edited August 29, 2020 by Francis Albert

[Weakened Offender]

24 minutes ago, vegas-voss said:

Look no matter what you think of predictions 65k deaths so far is horrendous. 

 

Not to a wee clique on here. To them, incredible as it is for actual grown ups to think* like that, the deaths were people dying that would have died anyway. 

 

*'arf. 

[vegas-voss]

2 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You are right the media will always report the worst scenario. But aren't you indulging in a bit of pot calling kettle black? 65k deaths? I think that is the excess deaths figure which includes deaths resulting from the effective closure of much of the NHS for treatments of non-Covid ilnesses and diseases. Many thousands more will die as a result of delayed and non-treatment. Not to mention the impact of lockdown on the economy. 

Currently more than 99% of people are dying of non-Covid ilnesses and diseases. Many times more are dying of flu and pneumonia than of Covid. Why are only Covid deaths "horrendous"?

They are not im only stating Covid related deaths though.The whole ****ing thing is a nightmare i have sympathy for everything and everybody we are all involved in this one way or another.Well above my pay grade in how the feck we get out of this mess.

 

So in short everything matters.

[The Internet]

37 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

I think the whole WFH thing has taught my company that it is possible, albeit probably most effective if there is some home working, some office working. 
 

That works great for me as when we return to the UK, we will be moving to a new house and we can look a little bit further our now. That means significantly more house for our money and a nicer area to live in. 
 

As for the lazy guys, we knew who they were before and lockdown has only shown it up.

 

That's something I've been thinking of, how this will affect those house prices in future. I mean I know nothing of the housing market so I'm not saying this from a position if knowledge but you'd think those 'more for your money' houses will be a lot more in demand in the coming years and the prices of them will rocket soon enough. Working from home was always coming in anyway but we've seen it sped up because of this. If I was moving I'd definitely be heading further out right now. 

[AlphonseCapone]

50 minutes ago, Captain Sausage said:

I think the whole WFH thing has taught my company that it is possible, albeit probably most effective if there is some home working, some office working. 
 

That works great for me as when we return to the UK, we will be moving to a new house and we can look a little bit further our now. That means significantly more house for our money and a nicer area to live in. 
 

As for the lazy guys, we knew who they were before and lockdown has only shown it up.

 

Agree. A blended model would seem to have the most benefits for employer and employee. 

 

Unfortunately there are some people that will always find ways to do as little as possible as the expense of colleagues. 

 

10 minutes ago, Mauricio Pinilla said:

 

That's something I've been thinking of, how this will affect those house prices in future. I mean I know nothing of the housing market so I'm not saying this from a position if knowledge but you'd think those 'more for your money' houses will be a lot more in demand in the coming years and the prices of them will rocket soon enough. Working from home was always coming in anyway but we've seen it sped up because of this. If I was moving I'd definitely be heading further out right now. 

 

It could see it reducing the prices for city houses and immediate surrounding areas as being in a commuting friendly place will be less of draw. Agree houses further out likely to increase in price. As always there will be winners and losers in that. Edinburgh's property market is atrociously priced on a purely property basis. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

I don’t think anyone cares as long as we “stay safe”.

Wait until the real payback begins,  - ultra austerity. 
Pension cuts, raised retirement age, benefit cuts . 
 

If you’re a real doctor you’ll be fine with your large salary.

[The Real Maroonblood]

54 minutes ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

Not to a wee clique on here. To them, incredible as it is for actual grown ups to think* like that, the deaths were people dying that would have died anyway. 

 

*'arf. 

As long as it’s not their family who are dying.

[Enzo Chiefo]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

SAGE predicting 85000 Covid deaths this winter with “‘measures” to restrict non household contacts considered until at least March2021 .

whoopdy feckin doo. 
considering wave 1 didn’t manage it with delayed lockdown, football, foreign travel etc I think it’s more utter bs

I don't think anyone actually pays any attention to the utter garbage that comes out of these scientific models. 125k deaths here, no, make it 85k before that clown Ferguson throws in 500k. Thankfully,  most people can use their own common sense and use an evidenced based approach to make judgements, rather than worry about  "the science".  It turns out that, with quarantining, you can't go out to walk your dog but a loophole exists which allows you to use public transport to get to the airport and travel to another country...while quarantining.  You couldn't make this stuff up!

[Weakened Offender]

9 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

As long as it’s not their family who are dying.

 

Of course. No values whatsoever. 

[Back to 2005]

Why is a covid death worth more than one by other means? Asking the "clique" on here that believe this? 

If you don't believe this then where is your concern for everyone that has become victim to the lack of care being provided for cancer patients and policies which have increased suicide rates?

Or do your "values" only go as far as party politics?....

[Nucky Thompson]

37 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

As long as it’s not their family who are dying.

That's not true

[Enzo Chiefo]

4 minutes ago, Back to 2005 said:

Why is a covid death worth more than one by other means? Asking the "clique" on here that believe this? 

If you don't believe this then where is your concern for everyone that has become victim to the lack of care being provided for cancer patients and policies which have increased suicide rates?

Or do your "values" only go as far as party politics?....

Last year, the cause celebre was Brexit and this year they are obsessing about Covid. Politicians love a big news story to distract everyone from their daily failings and that's what is playing out here.  Over 1k people die of non Covid illnesses every week in Scotland. To stand up every day and repeatedly express sympathy for the relatives who have lost loved ones to Covid, must be particularly galling for the overwhelming majority of families grieving losses that were non Covid related.