Coronavirus Super Thread ( merged )

[Justin Z]

13 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Becoming an expert through academia is not my point.

 

These people still have things to learn as this virus is showing us.

 

It's new to them, not one of them has dealt with anything on this scale before but we somehow still put our trust in them.

 

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

See that's how science works—nothing is 100%, especially in cutting edge areas of new research. Medical experts will be wrong. Data will be faulty. This is a given, this is expected, and it's why the work to better understand new things doesn't just come to a halt. Regardless, actual expertise informed by actual training gives them much better odds of getting it right than any Tom, Dick or Harry flinging shit at the wall, hoping some of it sticks.

 

[kila]

6 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

Becoming an expert through academia is not my point.

 

These people still have things to learn as this virus is showing us.

 

It's new to them, not one of them has dealt with anything on this scale before but we somehow still put our trust in them.

 

Who should we put our trust in then?

 

We've little choice about our elected leaders at the moment. They, as @Governor Tarkin highlighted, are balancing economic interests against what would need to be done to save as many lives as possible.

 

The outcome is restrictions so the NHS doesn't get overwhelmed. But we're still encouraged to spend our money, buy xmas presents, go to the supermarket, buy non-essentials from Amazon etc.

 

In all honesty, I can't see any other way of balancing this shit storm. The world's capitalist model just doesn't support dealing with pandemics. Money still has to be made... 

 

[Justin Z]

1 minute ago, kila said:

In all honesty, I can't see any other way of balancing this shit storm. The world's capitalist model just doesn't support dealing with pandemics. Money still has to be made...

 

And it's being made hand-over-fist even without corrupt politicians giving away PPE contracts. US billionaires alone have been enriched by about a trillion dollars to this point.

 

Economic interests and solving the pandemic may not be mutually exclusive, but maximising both certainly appears to be.

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Justin Z

[FWJ]

50 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Becoming an expert through academia is not my point.

 

These people still have things to learn as this virus is showing us.

 

It's new to them, not one of them has dealt with anything on this scale before but we somehow still put our trust in them.

And they’d be the first to admit they’re learning all the time.  But they are learning. Through study and experiment.
Who would you suggest we put our trust in?

[redjambo]

Outbreak in Shetland.

 

Covid in Scotland: Shetland 'set for level 4 restrictions' if cases rise

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-55474128

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, FWJ said:

And they’d be the first to admit they’re learning all the time.  But they are learning. Through study and experiment.
Who would you suggest we put our trust in?

 

You put your trust in who you want.

 

If you think because they went to Uni is a good enough reason for you then that's fine.

 

I'm slowly but surely losing any trust I had in anybody in a position to deal with this pandemic.

 

Nearly a year down the line and they look as if they are still working off the back of a fag packet.

[Taffin]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

You put your trust in who you want.

 

If you think because they went to Uni is a good enough reason for you then that's fine.

 

I'm slowly but surely losing any trust I had in anybody in a position to deal with this pandemic.

 

Nearly a year down the line and they look as if they are still working off the back of a fag packet.

 

I studied politics and social policy at Uni. Therefore you should listen to me on what policies we implement. I'm an expert.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

You're self awareness does not seem to be working. So I'll help you out. You James are one of the same culprits. 

Hi Alban oh I’m very aware I’m one of the culprits . Most are the “ culprits “ on this but on different sides of the “ debate “ I’m choice now to hardly engage on this forum as like I said it’s the same “ arguments “ every . Good to have a wee nose on it but I’ll rarely comment . I only replied to you as I’ve always liked your rather “ say.  It how it is “ comments and your sense of humour which Some posters haven’t got . 

[Governor Tarkin]

45 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Economic interests and solving the pandemic may not be mutually exclusive, but maximising both certainly appears to be.

 

 

Economic strength and solving the pandemic are absolutely essential to each other, Justin, you know this, especially if societies are going to recover from the pandemic without further and extended hardships.

 

The misappropriation of public funds and blatant profiteering that are using the pandemic as the flimsiest of cover are a different story. I doubt you'll find a single person on here who isn't disgusted by much of what is going on. The PPE and Track and Trace App scandal alone should be enough to see Johnson, Harding, et al locked up for a very long time. The fact that it won't points to a series of deeper problems, discussion of which is probably not suitable for this thread.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Governor Tarkin

[Governor Tarkin]

10 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Who would you suggest we put our trust in?

 

Jim Jefferies.

[kila]

10 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

You put your trust in who you want.

 

If you think because they went to Uni is a good enough reason for you then that's fine.

 

I'm slowly but surely losing any trust I had in anybody in a position to deal with this pandemic.

 

Nearly a year down the line and they look as if they are still working off the back of a fag packet.

 

Do you have a problem with folk who went to uni? Maybe you'd prefer to see a doctor who learnt from YouTube videos?

 

But I get what you're saying - someone going to uni and did say a mickey mouse degree does not show anything other than some academic ability. But someone who studied medicine, qualified and are practising with years of experience are worth listening to.

 

 

[Justin Z]

6 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

The fact that it won't points to a series of deeper problems, discussion of which is probably not suitable for this thread.

 

No, that is for sure. A vital topic for this entire issue, but such a rabbit hole, and only one of dozens of related ones that all tie into this. In the end, what a mess.

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, kila said:

 

Do you have a problem with folk who went to uni? Maybe you'd prefer to see a doctor who learnt from YouTube videos?

 

But I get what you're saying - someone going to uni and did say a mickey mouse degree does not show anything other than some academic ability. But someone who studied medicine, qualified and are practising with years of experience are worth listening to.

 

 

 

Why would I have a problem with people trying to better themselves through education of their choice?

 

The medical profession is a given that you trust and listen to them - doesn't mean it always turns out well.

 

They have made loads of mistakes over the years like most other professions.

[kila]

1 minute ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Why would I have a problem with people trying to better themselves through education of their choice?

 

The medical profession is a given that you trust and listen to them - doesn't mean it always turns out well.

 

They have made loads of mistakes over the years like most other professions.

 

What was your earlier point about then? Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seemed to be saying we shouldn't have onto expert opinion just because they went to uni at some point? I don't know what profession you are actually referring to.

 

[Enzo Chiefo]

3 hours ago, Weakened Offender said:

 

You're trolling this thread something chronic now. It's pretty disgusting that no action has been taken. 

How exactly is that trolling? The Army built the feckin hospitals and are more than capable of running them. So get back in your box instead of constantly boring the tits off everyone on this thread.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

17 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Jim Jefferies.

 

Did someone mention JJ.

 

Well my first decree would be, lets go to the pub and set the world to right.

[Taffin]

People generally view their own workload as close to exceeding their bandwidth and use emotive language when asked about it. That's true of almost every job or profession and regardless of whether that is actually true, or otherwise. I'm not saying those telling us we are at a capacity crisis in the NHS are wrong, but also that they're hardly going to turn around and say "yeh, we're all good here, loads of excess capacity".

 

For example:

 

"All the hospitals across the health board are now very, very full," said Dr Hepburn, who works as a consultant in the Royal Gwent Hospital in Newport.

 

They can either be full, or not full. They can't be very, very full. So what is the reasoning for choosing that terminology?

[Pasquale for King]

3 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

How exactly is that trolling? The Army built the feckin hospitals and are more than capable of running them. So get back in your box instead of constantly boring the tits off everyone on this thread.

I don’t think they “built” them, they helped get them ready. The 7 nightingale hospitals kitted out are being dismantled in the main according to doctors, if you believe them of course. 

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, kila said:

 

What was your earlier point about then? Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seemed to be saying we shouldn't have onto expert opinion just because they went to uni at some point? I don't know what profession you are actually referring to.

 

 

The medical profession get a lot of slack from people as it's a given that we should trust them and that everything they tell us is gospel because these are Uni educated so why would you doubt them ?

 

They are not always right but they are one profession that people still trust.

 

I trusted what the likes of Whitty, Vallance and Leitch were saying at the start of this because it's our nature to when listening to experts like them about staying healthy and safe.

 

Now I'm not so sure as nothing that has been implemented seems to be working.

[Governor Tarkin]

15 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

No, that is for sure. A vital topic for this entire issue, but such a rabbit hole, and only one of dozens of related ones that all tie into this. In the end, what a mess.

 

Agreed on all scores.

What a ****ing mess indeed.

[Pasquale for King]

24 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Jim Jefferies.

This affects the lungs not bungs. 

[Pasquale for King]

Just now, Brian Dundas said:

Whitty, Vallance and Leitch are not making the decisions on what is or isn’t implemented though. 

The first two seem to be ignored until there is no other option, then wheeled out to take the blame. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

30 minutes ago, JamesM48 said:

Hi Alban oh I’m very aware I’m one of the culprits . Most are the “ culprits “ on this but on different sides of the “ debate “ I’m choice now to hardly engage on this forum as like I said it’s the same “ arguments “ every . Good to have a wee nose on it but I’ll rarely comment . I only replied to you as I’ve always liked your rather “ say.  It how it is “ comments and your sense of humour which Some posters haven’t got . 

 

I tend to agree, there are many times I'm going to reply to a post because I may have some info relating to it, but I don't because it's often in the middle of a spat between other posters and I don't want to get embroiled in it.

 

I genuinely think that a lot of people are really fed up one way or another and nerves & tempers are frayed and folks are lashing out.

 

[Maroon Sailor]

3 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

Whitty, Vallance and Leitch are not making the decisions on what is or isn’t implemented though. 

 

We're told decisions are made based on the science though

[DETTY29]

We need to wait and see if it can be identified about the D&G outbreak (I posted a Santa Grotto rumour earlier about Stranraer from a local) but the Labour Leader of D&G Council just on Radio Scotland admitting that while she was generally against D&G going into L4, she is thankful now it was put in to highest tier.

[JudyJudyJudy]

5 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I tend to agree, there are many times I'm going to reply to a post because I may have some info relating to it, but I don't because it's often in the middle of a spat between other posters and I don't want to get embroiled in it.

 

I genuinely think that a lot of people are really fed up one way or another and nerves & tempers are frayed and folks are lashing out.

 

Good summary 

[Victorian]

London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine saying that UK needs to vaccinate at a rate of 2 million per week to avoid a 3rd wave.  

 

Not sure if these scientists are in the category to be dismissed or in the category to be believed.  Depends... eh?

[Pasquale for King]

4 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

We're told decisions are made based on the science though

Only to deflect the blame. Having to do something due to an increase numbers of cases is not scientific. I do share your scepticism of trusting professionals no matter what, everyone makes mistakes as you say. Look at the clubs medical department. 

[Maroon Sailor]

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine saying that UK needs to vaccinate at a rate of 2 million per week to avoid a 3rd wave.  

 

Not sure if these scientists are in the category to be dismissed or in the category to be believed.  Depends... eh?

 

Ah the old worse case scenario tactic

 

It will be 5 million to avoid the 4th wave - in the meantime somebody is becoming very wealthy

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Ah the old worse case scenario tactic

 

It will be 5 million to avoid the 4th wave - in the meantime somebody is becoming very wealthy

 

Righto.  

[Maroon Sailor]

Just now, Brian Dundas said:

Which of the three you mentioned do you think came up with Eat Out to Help Out?

 

Don't know

 

Which one said herd immunity ?

[Maroon Sailor]

1 minute ago, Victorian said:

 

Righto.  

 

Don't try to be a smarmy git then

[doctor jambo]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Only to deflect the blame. Having to do something due to an increase numbers of cases is not scientific. I do share your scepticism of trusting professionals no matter what, everyone makes mistakes as you say. Look at the clubs medical department. 

Nobody should be blindly trusted. 
It was patently obvious that eradicating this was impossible, stopping it equally so, limiting the damage until it burned out or a vaccine arrived the only option.

however the only thing attempted was cyclical lockdowns . 
Nothing else was tried or realistically considered, it appears.

The best thing they can do is get the Oxford vaccine out there and every last dr, nurse , midwife , pharmacy starts administering it pronto and everything else shelved until it’s done.

 

[Nucky Thompson]

4 minutes ago, Brian Dundas said:

Which of the three you mentioned do you think came up with Eat Out to Help Out?

Did you take up the offer Brian?

[DETTY29]

For those of us that still watch, listen to the SG and WM briefings, the view is consistent on all sides.

 

The politicians say they follow the science, the scientists say they provide the science, research, data and modelling options to allow the politicians to decide the course of action to be taken.

Edited December 29, 2020 by DETTY29

[John Findlay]

The older I've got, the more cynical I have become. This I put down to experience. The experience from the age of sixteen when I realised that those in authority didnt always tell the truth.

Rightly or wrongly I have been sceptical of the scientists and politicians of all persuasions during this Covid 19 situation from the start.

I certainly do not believe the figures of the deaths that have been attributed to Covid 19.

I would like someone to ask the following question.

Since March this year how many persons have died from Cancer, Heart attacks, natural causes, dementia, alzheimer's etc etc etc?

 

[Victorian]

7 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

 

Don't try to be a smarmy git then

 

I don't try.  I AM a smarmy git.

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

For those of us that still watch, listen to the SG and WM briefings, the view is consistent on all sides.

 

The politicians say they follow the science, the scientists say they provide the science, research, data and modelling options to allow the politicians to decide the course of action to be taken.

I was expecting a briefing today but it looks it’s not happening.

[Governor Tarkin]

10 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

The older I've got, the more cynical I have become.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

I don't try.  I AM a smarmy git.

 

The surprises just keep on coming.

 

[MoncurMacdonaldMercer]

2 hours ago, Justin Z said:

 

See that's how science works—nothing is 100%, especially in cutting edge areas of new research. Medical experts will be wrong. Data will be faulty. This is a given, this is expected, and it's why the work to better understand new things doesn't just come to a halt. Regardless, actual expertise informed by actual training gives them much better odds of getting it right than any Tom, Dick or Harry flinging shit at the wall, hoping some of it sticks.

 

I think what you are trying to describe is a situation where data is incomplete, and where there are known unknowns, known limitations etc

 

the situations I referred to are when the the data as it stood in its entirety was known to be wrong/inappropriate but was used anyway to convey important messages to the public (either willfully or through incompetence) until it was exposed by another scientist who is not part of “the science”

 

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Nobody should be blindly trusted. 
It was patently obvious that eradicating this was impossible, stopping it equally so, limiting the damage until it burned out or a vaccine arrived the only option.

however the only thing attempted was cyclical lockdowns . 
Nothing else was tried or realistically considered, it appears.

The best thing they can do is get the Oxford vaccine out there and every last dr, nurse , midwife , pharmacy starts administering it pronto and everything else shelved until it’s done.

 

You would know better than me but I’ve heard that some others are getting the vaccine before those you mentioned, like NHS Psychologists for example. 

[Pasquale for King]

15 minutes ago, DETTY29 said:

For those of us that still watch, listen to the SG and WM briefings, the view is consistent on all sides.

 

The politicians say they follow the science, the scientists say they provide the science, research, data and modelling options to allow the politicians to decide the course of action to be taken.

Sturgeon actually accepts that it’s her decision after weighing up the advice from the science, like keeping Edinburgh in tier 3 that as much as it annoyed me was the right thing to do. 

[Pasquale for King]

12 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I was expecting a briefing today but it looks it’s not happening.

It was down on the tv listings but didn't happen, BBC **** up no doubt. 

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Sturgeon actually accepts that it’s her decision after weighing up the advice from the science, like keeping Edinburgh in tier 3 that as much as it annoyed me was the right thing to do. 

 

It wasn't the right thing to do unless Sturgeon knew about these other strains on the go earlier than she is letting on.  The right thing to do is always follow the science and have clear and transparent criteria for the public to understand why you move up and down tiers.

[DETTY29]

2 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

Sturgeon actually accepts that it’s her decision after weighing up the advice from the science, like keeping Edinburgh in tier 3 that as much as it annoyed me was the right thing to do. 

👍

 

 

[redjambo]

24 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

 

Since March this year how many persons have died from Cancer, Heart attacks, natural causes, dementia, alzheimer's etc etc etc?

 

 

None of these are infectious diseases.

 

If it hadn't been for the various measures that have been put in place and we had just let the virus rip through the population, then the death toll from Covid would have been much higher.

 

It's not rocket science and we are not living in a science fiction novel.

 

 

[Pasquale for King]

5 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

It wasn't the right thing to do unless Sturgeon knew about these other strains on the go earlier than she is letting on.  The right thing to do is always follow the science and have clear and transparent criteria for the public to understand why you move up and down tiers.

Their caution was well founded, being open for a couple of weeks would’ve only made the situation worse. It’s more that she accepts responsibility for her decisions. 

[Footballfirst]

Scottish numbers: 29 December 2020

Summary

• 1,895 new cases of COVID-19 reported
• 14,179 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results – 14.4% of these were positive
• 7 new reported deaths of people who have tested positive (noting that Register Offices have been closed over the public holidays)
• 65 people are in intensive care with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 1,092 people are in hospital with recently confirmed COVID-19

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, Pasquale for King said:

It was down on the tv listings but didn't happen, BBC **** up no doubt. 

It was.

[redjambo]

Scottish numbers: 29 December 2020

Summary

• 1,895 new cases of COVID-19 reported [+928]
• 14,179 new tests for COVID-19 that reported results – 14.4% of these were positive [+5,360; +2.2%]
• 7 new reported deaths of people who have tested positive (noting that Register Offices have been closed over the public holidays)
• 65 people are in intensive care with recently confirmed COVID-19
• 1,092 people are in hospital with recently confirmed COVID-19

During 1-4 January, daily updates will be published to provide the latest data on the number of new cases of COVID-19 and the test positivity rate. During this period (1-4 January) there will be no updates to the remaining statistics – you can access the latest available data in the sections below and in the trends excel file. Following the next holiday weekend, we will update on Tuesday 5 January – we will provide the latest daily data for that day and the previous 4 days.

 

Redjambo note: Comparative figures are not included for deaths and folk in hospital/intensive care due to the missing data for the last few days. I have to say that I am unimpressed by the holes in the data over the festive period - Covid doesn't take a break for the festive period and neither should we be in reporting it.