'New Stand update'.well an update

[soonbe110]

16 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

Just think how many absolute duds we could have signed up on 3 or 4 year deals with the additional £11m? 

 

While the stand completes the ground nicely and keeps us in Gorgie - which is what most people cared most about - questions should be asked about how you can be 100% out with the estimated cost?

Do you honestly believe that our benefactors and Budge would have given us an extra £8.4m to spend on players? 

[soonbe110]

18 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

No because it never existed!

(And you later edit doesn't change that.)

It did, just can’t be bothered trawling through pages to prove a point to you. 

[wavydavy]

10 minutes ago, dallan said:

Sitting here in Aberdeen and listening to the discussion on the ‘finished’ training ground and the maybe new stadium and £50m still to be spent I think there is a reason to be pretty happy with where we are and AB has to take huge credit for that. 

 

Have we over spent, I don’t know but the cost to buy the shares remains the same as far as I’m aware so it could be that FOH will get a lot more value for their investment than was expected.

Onwards and upwards for me!!!

 

 

As far as I am aware the FOH repayment was for the loan AB gave along with an amount of interest for her so that was always going to be the case.

 

I would imagine on paper the value of the club in terms of the buildings etc would have increased and that is an asset however the ground it is built on will not have changed much in value and that is likely to be the only real worth if it were ever to be sold.

 

After all you don't see too many football stadia being sold on to other football teams as going concerns they are usually sold for the land.

 

 

[jake]

24 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

How many millions have the fans contributed? How many fans are unhappy with the new stand? How many fans are unhappy that we are staying at tynie? 
is she going to leave us with any debt when she hands the club over? Why are you such a moaning- faced guy about the club you supposedly love? 
 

Everyone on jkb knows you don’t like what she has done with the stand. Just leave it there and give us all a bit of peace. Alternatively if you think some shady dealings have been done, as you continually deny but regularly raise the question, then take it to the lady herself or even a higher authority. If you feel that strongly about it don’t use an 800 mile round trip as a lousy excuse for hiding behind your keyboard. 

A lousy excuse?

Mate it was a 4 mile round trip for me and I never went.

Can I ask if you did?

 

What's wrong with transparency btw why is that seen as troublesome?

[soonbe110]

7 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Why did she not just say what "it was always realistically going to cost" in the first place then.

 

If a project comes in anywhere near the original budget or even close to it after taking into account contingencies then nobody really takes any great notice.

 

It is always great news for the media to have a go when they see an opportunity such as AB has gievn them.

 

That was all I was trying to point out. She didn't have to reveal any figures at the outset but she did and now it is being made to look negative when it shouldn't be.

Agree with your first point. Think she was obviously sold a pip from her architects and surveyors or she added stuff into the project as she went along. Suspect it’s a bit of both plus the other expensive bits that we know were added eg pitch. 

[Dazzle]

Speaking as an IT project manager, this level of over spend is not uncommon. It starts at the very beginning when initial costs are grossly understated, sometimes deliberately, in order to get a project started. 

[dallan]

3 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

As far as I am aware the FOH repayment was for the loan AB gave along with an amount of interest for her so that was always going to be the case.

 

I would imagine on paper the value of the club in terms of the buildings etc would have increased and that is an asset however the ground it is built on will not have changed much in value and that is likely to be the only real worth if it were ever to be sold.

 

After all you don't see too many football stadia being sold on to other football teams as going concerns they are usually sold for the land.

 

 

I agree with your point but value can be taken over the operational life of an investment and the stand may generate more income that it may have if the investment was lower...

[wavydavy]

1 minute ago, dallan said:

I agree with your point but value can be taken over the operational life of an investment and the stand may generate more income that it may have if the investment was lower...

 

True although it may not be finished prior to the sale to FOH.

[Francis Albert]

7 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

It did, just can’t be bothered trawling through pages to prove a point to you. 

A bit of " a lousy excuse" for not backing up your claim. 

[Unknown user]

At the start when the project was announced would we have viewed a final cost of 22.5 million as a success story, nothing to worry about? Would we have thought that not ordering seats or putting in enough toilets or getting the expected skyline view was good work, well done?

 

Thankfully it looks like we're getting away with it financially but even slight alarm bells SHOULD be ringing for everyone that cares about our club. 

I took a lot of grief for having concerns during the build, was even told that the project had been run exceptionally well but it hasn't, it factually hasn't. Either those in charge were daft enough to go with an unrealistic figure, or they cynically lowballed a figure to soften the blow to the fans knowing that the real figure would be higher. I make no accusations but neither of those is good.

[TheOak88]

56 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Your second last para sums up the situation completely.  She has told us what she has done with the club she owns. All that’s required of her is actually a lot less than she has told us. For a club that is 87.5% owned by one individual the transparency of what’s been going on, what’s been spent and on what has been much greater than the last three owners we have had. 

 

I get that Ann is by far the majority shareholder. But given that the fans provided a significant amount of money towards the building of the stand via donations, surely that means transparency is paramount. 

 

Like others i think a high level overview should be provided of actual vs budget figures. It’s only fair when you are spending other people’s money. 

[FruitJuice]

36 minutes ago, skinnybob72 said:

Just think how many absolute duds we could have signed up on 3 or 4 year deals with the additional £11m? 

 

While the stand completes the ground nicely and keeps us in Gorgie - which is what most people cared most about - questions should be asked about how you can be 100% out with the estimated cost?

The only positive of it being over budget is that if it didn't get spent on the new stand, it would be been given to levein to spend...  imagine giving him a few million to play with?  

[TheOak88]

53 minutes ago, Armageddon said:

Money well spent.  Anybody trying to kick up a shirt storm about this are clueless to the building game.

 

Haters gonna hate.

 

 

 

I will happily admit I am clueless with regard to the building game. Never worked in construction in my life. And have very little knowledge of it. 

 

I am assuming based on your post you are pretty familiar with it all. 

 

For those like myself who are uneducated on the topic, would you be able to give us an overview of why £22M is value for money with regard to the stand? 

[Debut 4]

18 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Speaking as an IT project manager, this level of over spend is not uncommon. It starts at the very beginning when initial costs are grossly understated, sometimes deliberately, in order to get a project started. 

Aye, and the client hoping to get away with spending too much on materials etc....

 

But there’s forecasting a possible manageable loss, then there’s grossly miscalculating those added possible costs! 

[FruitJuice]

3 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

 

I will happily admit I am clueless with regard to the building game. Never worked in construction in my life. And have very little knowledge of it. 

 

I am assuming based on your post you are pretty familiar with it all. 

 

For those like myself who are uneducated on the topic, would you be able to give us an overview of why £22M is value for money with regard to the stand? 

Look!  You asking that question means you are either a hibs fan or a hater.  Just accept it and shut up.  Some posters still playing the pathetic haters card.  If this was hibs we wouldn't be saying that they got value for money.   

[Clerry Jambo]

43 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said:

Anyone who thinks THAT is a £21m stand hasn't been in it.

 Can you give us another stand that cost 21m so we can compare, luvly jubly!!

[Last Laff]

9 minutes ago, FruitJuice said:

The only positive of it being over budget is that if it didn't get spent on the new stand, it would be been given to levein to spend...  imagine giving him a few million to play with?  

Partick Thistle and Dunfermline would have a team full of expensive loan players if that happened 😁

[Last Laff]

5 minutes ago, FruitJuice said:

Look!  You asking that question means you are either a hibs fan or a hater.  Just accept it and shut up.  Some posters still playing the pathetic haters card.  If this was hibs we wouldn't be saying that they got value for money.   

Indeed.  How dare anyone question a massive overspend on a stand that will ultimately be funded by, erm, us.  If you haven’t been a football manager, don’t have an opinion on football management and if you don’t work in construction don’t give a opinion on that.  I work in construction recruitment and have done for 20 years so I’m not sure where I stand in the grand scheme of things  

[rudeskaboyuk]

Is anyone able to give an idea how much the other 3 stands cost and if they went vastly over budget?

I am not complaining.  I love the new stand and would rather it was an expensive quality build than some sort of shoddy cheap nasty construction. 

[Crete]

Felt we just rushed into getting a new stand could of just repaired and decorated the old stand as it was structurally sound

[queensferryjambo]

18 hours ago, Herbert said:

 

 

I can see Edinburgh castle from my grans house that doesn't make it worth 22M. 

 

 

Edinburgh Castle is definitely worth £22 million......................

 

 

 

I'll get my coat...................

[davemclaren]

2 minutes ago, Crete said:

Felt we just rushed into getting a new stand could of just repaired and decorated the old stand as it was structurally sound

Nah, it was life expired.  

[77Mackay77]

4 hours ago, Vlad Magic said:

Has the cost spent to date changed as a result of the club stating the budgeted costs at the beginning of the project?

Yes because they have added significantly to the spec of the project including adding entirely new areas to development that were not in the original quoted price. Which in absolutely no way does that mean there has been a massive overspend.

[Hairdryer]

Maybe should just delay the work until we know what league we are going to be in next season 

[77Mackay77]

4 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

In what way is a 12 million overspend on a 12 million budget not 100% over?

Eh is it not kind of obvious?

There has not been a 12m overspend. The scope was significantly expanded since original 12m was quoted.  Adding areas like the fans bar and an additional hospitality lounge, tv studio etc. Plus the total infrastructure spend includes the pitch and the rest of the stadium not just the main stand.

 

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Hairdryer said:

Maybe should just delay the work until we know what league we are going to be in next season 

It is delayed. 

[Thomaso]

4 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

 

😂😂😂😂😂

 

What was the budget for the stand and what did it cost? 
 

One exceed the other, that is not in dispute is it?. Revising the budget does not stop it being a overspend. Otherwise a project never overspends as the final price is the budget!!’

 

Do you want me to remove the word massive, would that make you feel better?  Though we budgeted to spend circa £12M and it cost circa £22M  The definition of overspend is to spend more than you expect  Our budget (what we expected to spend) nearly doubled on it so I’m fairly confident in my assertion that massive overspend is the correct term👍 
 

The stand redevelopment was poorly managed, you can claim it’s not if you want but you would just be wrong.

 

Anyway you can try and distract around semantics and miss the bigger point. The stand was poorly managed it doubled in cost, Was delivered late and we didn’t get everything we wanted. 
 

That’s not a dig at Hearts or AB or CL its an observation.
 

 

 

 

 

Your observation is not strictly correct.

 

Firstly as I have repeated ad naseum the stand complex could never have been built for £12m - that was a gross under estimation from a professional Quantity Surveying Company that frankly should have known better.

So on that basis there had to be a massive “overspend” not due to mismanagement by the Project Manager but because the £12m budget was never achievable in the first place.

With regards to the project being poorly managed I would confirm through first hand knowledge that the Project Manager did a fantastic job in the face of an incomplete design from the Architect, the Club forgetting to order the seats, and a programme that frankly Mrs Budge demanded whether it was achievable or not!

[davemclaren]

1 minute ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Your observation is not strictly correct.

 

Firstly as I have repeated ad naseum the stand complex could never have been built for £12m - that was a gross under estimation from a professional Quantity Surveying Company that frankly should have known better.

So on that basis there had to be a massive “overspend” not due to mismanagement by the Project Manager but because the £12m budget was never achievable in the first place.

With regards to the project being poorly managed I would confirm through first hand knowledge that the Project Manager did a fantastic job in the face of an incomplete design from the Architect, the Club forgetting to order the seats, and a programme that frankly Mrs Budge demanded whether it was achievable or not!

Her IT background kicking in there. 😃

[Thomaso]

14 minutes ago, Crete said:

Felt we just rushed into getting a new stand could of just repaired and decorated the old stand as it was structurally sound

The Council were being extremely difficult when it came to issuing the annual safety certificate for the old stand.

The other major factor was that the Council were going to imminently build a new nursery on the land thus preventing future development of Tynecastle

Edited January 5, 2020 by Thomaso

[FruitJuice]

17 minutes ago, Last Laff said:

Indeed.  How dare anyone question a massive overspend on a stand that will ultimately be funded by, erm, us.  If you haven’t been a football manager, don’t have an opinion on football management and if you don’t work in construction don’t give a opinion on that.  I work in construction recruitment and have done for 20 years so I’m not sure where I stand in the grand scheme of things  

You've only done that job for 20 years? In kickback terms that means you know **** all about **** all... now shut the **** up and let the amateur experts on here teach you a thing or two.

[soonbe110]

55 minutes ago, jake said:

A lousy excuse?

Mate it was a 4 mile round trip for me and I never went.

Can I ask if you did?

 

What's wrong with transparency btw why is that seen as troublesome?

Yes I did. No problem with transparency at all. In fact a big fan of it. If you read my earlier post though you will know that she has been much more transparent than she needs to be. 

[soonbe110]

49 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

A bit of " a lousy excuse" for not backing up your claim. 

Yes, we all make them 

[Phil Dunphy]

11 minutes ago, Clerry Jambo said:

 Can you give us another stand that cost 21m so we can compare, luvly jubly!!

 

I'm struggling to find another instance where a club owner passed a lucrative construction contract to a family member before revealing the cost was going to be double the original estimate. Can you provide me with one?

 

In todays money, it cost Hibs £11m to rebuild their West Stand. Perhaps someone could tell me what makes ours worth an additional £11m?

 

 

[soonbe110]

39 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

 

I will happily admit I am clueless with regard to the building game. Never worked in construction in my life. And have very little knowledge of it. 

 

I am assuming based on your post you are pretty familiar with it all. 

 

For those like myself who are uneducated on the topic, would you be able to give us an overview of why £22M is value for money with regard to the stand? 

One last time - it’s not just the stand. It was a stadium refurbishment program including stand, pitch, plant room, police control box, tv room, toilets in other stands, food kiosks, etc. The original estimates were for just the stadium 

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Morph said:

Are you for real?  The real over spend is only 2m because a stand that size “should cost about 18m”?  Why should it cost 18m, because some random on kickback said so?  Why not 25m or 30 and we can say it’s under budget. 
 

I am assuming I am the “random” you are referring to?

As some on here know I was heavily involved in the project and attended various pre construction meetings with Mrs Budge and the project team where some of us raised cost concerns.

The £18m cost came from the MD of a major UK contractor who was a pal of mine and a Hearts fan.

[Thomaso]

4 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

One last time - it’s not just the stand. It was a stadium refurbishment program including stand, pitch, plant room, police control box, tv room, toilets in other stands, food kiosks, etc. The original estimates were for just the stadium 

including -

5 corporate suites

Club shop

Fans bar
Media centre

Nursery

The Plaza/land purchase

 

[jake]

 

1 minute ago, soonbe110 said:

Yes I did. No problem with transparency at all. In fact a big fan of it. If you read my earlier post though you will know that she has been much more transparent than she needs to be. 

I didnt read your earlier post and hat off to you for attending.

More than she needs to be doesnt cut it for me mate.

I'm not having a go at her.

But if the majority of the funds are coming from the FOH I think it's only right that a more detailed set of information be available to the subscribers .

Budge is the custodian of the club it's not her decision imo which information is available.

Especially involving the amount of money involved.

If there has been mistakes then perhaps it's something we can learn from.

I'm repeating myself again😄

 

It's just the start mate and Its important the club is ran properly with checks and balances.

 

[jake]

3 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

I am assuming I am the “random” you are referring to?

As some on here know I was heavily involved in the project and attended various pre construction meetings with Mrs Budge and the project team where some of us raised cost concerns.

The £18m cost came from the MD of a major UK contractor who was a pal of mine and a Hearts fan.

I feel slightly better about this given your posts.

Given your not shy criticising what's been going on elsewhere.

 

 

[Thomaso]

1 hour ago, Phil Dunphy said:

Anyone who thinks THAT is a £21m stand hasn't been in it.

Phil not trying to be confrontational but what £21m stand are you comparing ours to?

Also have you been on a tour of the stand complex or are you basing your judgement on going to the fans seats to watch a game?

If you have gone around the interior you would see 5 corporate suites, dressing rooms that are to a top standard, fitness area, media centre, offices, not to mention the Fans Bar and Club Shop.

Please also bear in mind that the cost including incorporating a nursery, not to mention the land purchase for the Plaza, and £1m on a hybrid pitch.

[Thomaso]

6 minutes ago, jake said:

I feel slightly better about this given your posts.

Given your not shy criticising what's been going on elsewhere.

 

 

I try to call it as I see it - good and bad.

[Last Laff]

26 minutes ago, FruitJuice said:

You've only done that job for 20 years? In kickback terms that means you know **** all about **** all... now shut the **** up and let the amateur experts on here teach you a thing or two.

Point taken  

[Thomaso]

2 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

The budget was the budget. The fact that is so woefully wrong is just another example of the poor management around the project, By all accounts it didn’t pass the scratch and sniff test and AB chose to go with it, despite advice from others. 
 

She/the club set the baseline and the budget and they massively overspent on it. 
 

All the issues you suggest are evidence of poor management. 
 

For clarity I said poor management at no point did I say poorly project management! That’s you just making stuff up. FTR I heard the project manager was a bit shit 😂

 

 

Nothing in my post is made up - nothing.

[Footballfirst]

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/club-update-from-ann-budge

9th May 2016

 

2. Off the field, too, we will be extremely busy. You all know about our plans to develop our main stand. A number of you came along to the public meetings which were held at Tynecastle last week, where you heard more detail of what we are planning, of how we are approaching the development and of the likely timescales. 

In short, we are hoping to create the space needed for the larger stand by knocking down, not the current main stand, but the buildings behind the stand – the admin building, the shop building and the nursery. Before we can do this we will, of course, have to provide new temporary facilities which will be used during construction. The nursery will move to new facilities in Gerard’s Yard and everyone else will move into new facilities in the Wheatfield undercroft. Plans for these temporary facilities are currently being finalised. They should be ready for occupation in October, to allow the demolition of the old buildings in November of this year.

We will then commence the structural work for the new stand, building up and over and behind the current main stand…without impacting our use of current facilities throughout next season. We may seek to play the last two or three fixtures away at the end of the season, to allow us to start the work on the new seating and facilities in May 2017. Our objective is to complete the seating and essential services over next summer, enabling us to open the new stand for the beginning of the 2017/18 season. We will then continue the work behind the stand, to provide a new nursery, a new shop/ticket office, new community hub, etc, throughout the 2017/18 season, again without major disruption to match-day operations.

So, in short, we have a two-year development plan, starting very soon, which will see us have one of the finest stadiums in Scotland…with a capacity of 20-21,000…and UEFA standard facilities.

[soonbe110]

14 minutes ago, jake said:

 

I didnt read your earlier post and hat off to you for attending.

More than she needs to be doesnt cut it for me mate.

I'm not having a go at her.

But if the majority of the funds are coming from the FOH I think it's only right that a more detailed set of information be available to the subscribers .

Budge is the custodian of the club it's not her decision imo which information is available.

Especially involving the amount of money involved.

If there has been mistakes then perhaps it's something we can learn from.

I'm repeating myself again😄

 

It's just the start mate and Its important the club is ran properly with checks and balances.

 

But the majority of funds are not coming from FoH. Think it’s circa £6m at last count. 
At the moment she owns the Company that holds the football licence. She is more than custodian. 
I doubt if there are many, if any, major construction projects that delivered exactly the original brief on original budget. Not disagreeing with your points re checks and balances but on this occasion the owner of the business and her main financiers ie FoH and Benefactors supported the changes and clearly the  incremental costs required to get the project to where it is. In the end FoH will pick up a stadium that is in the best state it’s probably ever been when it completes the share purchase later this year. And the purchase price for the club is the same as it was when we came out of administration when we didn’t have the new stand and pitch etc. And it will almost certainly be debt free as well. I find it hard to believe that people are unhappy where we are stadium/finance wise. 

[soonbe110]

15 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Phil not trying to be confrontational but what £21m stand are you comparing ours to?

Also have you been on a tour of the stand complex or are you basing your judgement on going to the fans seats to watch a game?

If you have gone around the interior you would see 5 corporate suites, dressing rooms that are to a top standard, fitness area, media centre, offices, not to mention the Fans Bar and Club Shop.

Please also bear in mind that the cost including incorporating a nursery, not to mention the land purchase for the Plaza, and £1m on a hybrid pitch.

And the plant room at circa £1.5m I believe. 

[Phil Dunphy]

11 minutes ago, Cruickshank for Scotland said:

Phil not trying to be confrontational but what £21m stand are you comparing ours to?

Also have you been on a tour of the stand complex or are you basing your judgement on going to the fans seats to watch a game?

If you have gone around the interior you would see 5 corporate suites, dressing rooms that are to a top standard, fitness area, media centre, offices, not to mention the Fans Bar and Club Shop.

Please also bear in mind that the cost including incorporating a nursery, not to mention the land purchase for the Plaza, and £1m on a hybrid pitch.

 

Walk around the fan areas. It looks like it's been done as part of a school teccy project. 

[Vlad Magic]

The most exciting bit I take out of all of this is this.

 

”“I would have liked to have pressed the button in January but, with everything else that has gone on, I can’t see that happening much before the end of the season.“

 

Says to me that funds are being diverted to the Stendel fighting fund!!

[sadj]

1 hour ago, dallan said:

Sitting here in Aberdeen and listening to the discussion on the ‘finished’ training ground and the maybe new stadium and £50m still to be spent I think there is a reason to be pretty happy with where we are and AB has to take huge credit for that. 

 

Have we over spent, I don’t know but the cost to buy the shares remains the same as far as I’m aware so it could be that FOH will get a lot more value for their investment than was expected.

Onwards and upwards for me!!!

 

Lol their 50m project with 6 for Cormack Park which i believe is already well over budget. There was talk of canning it and redeveloping Pittodrie due to funding issues. Possibly why Milnes away and Cormacks stepped up.

[Sid]

4 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

very clear I would say. 

[obua]

5 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said:

The most exciting bit I take out of all of this is this.

 

”“I would have liked to have pressed the button in January but, with everything else that has gone on, I can’t see that happening much before the end of the season.“

 

Says to me that funds are being diverted to the Stendel fighting fund!!

That’s how I understand it to mean, That’s how it should be as well.