Governor Tarkin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 32 minutes ago, Vlad Magic said: Has the cost spent to date changed as a result of the club stating the budgeted costs at the beginning of the project? You can't confuse me with your fancy accountant talk. 😐 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: You can't confuse me with your fancy accountant talk. 😐 He also seems to have an issue with asking a question..his makes no sense whatsoever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1953 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 14 hours ago, davemclaren said: Everything is always up for debate. As @Francis Albert once asked, it would be useful to see a comparison of the original plans against the actuals with a rationale for variances. Did anybody ask this question at the AGM. There was a lot of talk about it on the AGM thread but does anybody have an answer and I've missed it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusk_Till_Dawn Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 49 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said: Well that's one way to spin it. Ha ha, comedy. Chief propaganda minister at it again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot since 86 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 13 minutes ago, CJGJ said: Why.....you are getting far too worked up about this and one has to question why ? If you fail to do your homework and ask questions when you had the opportunity then you have no one to blame but yourself...ignorance is no excuse for frankly a sloppy post I’m not worked up, just disappointed that we don’t appear to have been kept in the loop. The onus surely isn’t on members to continually ask questions, the onus is on FOH representatives and our board to communicate important developments so fans and members can stay informed. Not everyone can attend AGM/EGM but the idea of the newsletters is surely to communicate important things like this? You're also coming across as a bit of an arse when I’m doing exactly what you suggest in you’re post....asking questions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morph Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If this is the facilities 21m buys, what state was it going to be in if it was built to the 12m budget 😳 I thought we were spending extra money on things like toilets, they look like very basic run of the mill to me. I don’t see where any extra money has gone, everything seems to just be basic as anything, nothing has been finished to a good standard. It’s a good place to actually watch football but for the price we’ve went over i expected the facilities to be finished to a much higher standard. No one seems to be holding anyone accountable so I guess it’s just business as usual and we’ll continue to keep spending money until it’s done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot since 86 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 16 minutes ago, FruitJuice said: Couldn't we have got it cheaper if we had put the tender out to a wider range of companies? I’m by no means an expert but more options couldn’t have been a bad thing? As long as they did suitable due diligence and planned properly we can only take them at face value that this is the best outcome that could be reached...I’m sure there will be a review on completion and it will be interesting to see what conclusions are made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 12 minutes ago, 1953 said: Did anybody ask this question at the AGM. There was a lot of talk about it on the AGM thread but does anybody have an answer and I've missed it? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Hot since 86 said: I’m by no means an expert but more options couldn’t have been a bad thing? As long as they did suitable due diligence and planned properly we can only take them at face value that this is the best outcome that could be reached...I’m sure there will be a review on completion and it will be interesting to see what conclusions are made. If the original plans and assumed cost was wrong then the only way would probably to put it out as a fixed cost contract to one company. Doesn’t sound like the plans were tight enough for that though. It was all a bit rushed due to the council looking to rebuild the old nursery though afaik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot since 86 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, davemclaren said: If the original plans and assumed cost was wrong then the only way would probably to put it out as a fixed cost contract to one company. Doesn’t sound like the plans were tight enough for that though. It was all a bit rushed due to the council looking to rebuild the old nursery though afaik. You know a lot more than me Dave, hence why I’m willing to wait on the dust settling then getting an understanding of what we’ve got and what we paid. I just hope that the club and FOH starts to communicate and engage more with fans and members, personally feel it’s been lacking so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Hot since 86 said: I’m not worked up, just disappointed that we don’t appear to have been kept in the loop. The onus surely isn’t on members to continually ask questions, the onus is on FOH representatives and our board to communicate important developments so fans and members can stay informed. Not everyone can attend AGM/EGM but the idea of the newsletters is surely to communicate important things like this? You're also coming across as a bit of an arse when I’m doing exactly what you suggest in you’re post....asking questions 'We' were kept in the loop..you have failed to do your homework so no point in blaming others for your own failings If you are a contributor then you have more than one chance to ask questions and you have not done so ..hence you failed to do your homework..no point in blaming others for pointing this out to you Did you ask ?..no so again you expect someone else to do the work for you which is just lazy and to blame people for your failings of organisation is simply wrong If it meant that much to you then clearly you should have investigated and not relied on others to do the work for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, davemclaren said: If the original plans and assumed cost was wrong then the only way would probably to put it out as a fixed cost contract to one company. Doesn’t sound like the plans were tight enough for that though. It was all a bit rushed due to the council looking to rebuild the old nursery though afaik. They should've put the tender out to a wider range of companies. Not doing that and giving it to one if her relatives doesn't look good especially with the amount of money spent no one seems to be accountable. You cant see why some fans think there was nepotism involved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 14 hours ago, ShedBoy said: Embra trams Projected £375 million Actual £776 million Scottish Parliament Projected £40 million Actual £414 million Don't be so hard on ourselves. IMHO we done good 😂👍🏻 Having worked on both I can assure they are awful examples of waste bad management and terrible initial contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, FruitJuice said: They should've put the tender out to a wider range of companies. Not doing that and giving it to one if her relatives doesn't look good especially with the amount of money spent no one seems to be accountable. You cant see why some fans think there was nepotism involved I would assume a wider public tender would have taken a lot more time than the ‘structured’ one they did. I’m not sure anyone, outside the public sector uses that approach much. I do understand why some people suspect nepotism due to her brother’s company winning that tender but I would hope, and assume, the other directors would ensure it was managed correctly by the independent body that ran it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, CJGJ said: 'We' were kept in the loop..you have failed to do your homework so no point in blaming others for your own failings If you are a contributor then you have more than one chance to ask questions and you have not done so ..hence you failed to do your homework..no point in blaming others for pointing this out to you Did you ask ?..no so again you expect someone else to do the work for you which is just lazy and to blame people for your failings of organisation is simply wrong If it meant that much to you then clearly you should have investigated and not relied on others to do the work for you Fair points. So what's the point of representation from the FOH ? It's something we all need to learn from. Just slagging someone of for being lazy might have some truth and I appreciate that . But I'm not lazy while working to get money to pay for season tickets and contribute. Football first put up some figures at the start of the thread. Not really very detailed. No offence to him . We cant all be mobbing the club for info so I do think our reps need to see if they can make the breakdown of costs more available. The majority of cash for all of this comes out our pockets. No good just slaggin boys of mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, davemclaren said: I would assume a wider public tender would have taken a lot more time than the ‘structured’ one they did. I’m not sure anyone, outside the public sector uses that approach much. I do understand why some people suspect nepotism due to her brother’s company winning that tender but I would hope, and assume, the other directors would ensure it was managed correctly by the independent body that ran it. The other directors? They are too scared to say anything to her. Levein lasting as long as he did when were so bad means they said nothing the nepotism accusations will always be there. What would've been wrong in putting the tender out done to the delay in the stand? There were delays anyway thise ones cost us money. A delay due to putting the tender out could've saved us a million or two it doesn't look right and you can understand why people think this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allowayjambo1874 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 As an aside the main stand it replaced was built in 1914, estimated cost was £6,000 and actual cost was £12,000! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, jake said: Having worked on both I can assure they are awful examples of waste bad management and terrible initial contracts. Part of the blame for the Scottish parliament overspend goes to that wee shite kirsty ward who is happy to sit on newsnight and criticise politicians for the same thing she was the one fervently pushing for it to be finished the way the architect wanted. 80 grand for the reception desk that just looks like a long desk. Sorry... just hate the fact that she gets off scot free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, FruitJuice said: The other directors? They are too scared to say anything to her. Levein lasting as long as he did when were so bad means they said nothing the nepotism accusations will always be there. What would've been wrong in putting the tender out done to the delay in the stand? There were delays anyway thise ones cost us money. A delay due to putting the tender out could've saved us a million or two it doesn't look right and you can understand why people think this. I doubt the other directors are too scared. If the initial plan and costings were wrong, as alleged, I’m not convinced a wider tender process would have had much influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Allowayjambo1874 said: As an aside the main stand it replaced was built in 1914, estimated cost was £6,000 and actual cost was £12,000! Elias Furst oot!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Allowayjambo1874 said: As an aside the main stand it replaced was built in 1914, estimated cost was £6,000 and actual cost was £12,000! Were the Leech family on the board as well..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, FruitJuice said: Part of the blame for the Scottish parliament overspend goes to that wee shite kirsty ward who is happy to sit on newsnight and criticise politicians for the same thing she was the one fervently pushing for it to be finished the way the architect wanted. 80 grand for the reception desk that just looks like a long desk. Sorry... just hate the fact that she gets off scot free 😳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, davemclaren said: I doubt the other directors are too scared. If the initial plan and costings were wrong, as alleged, I’m not convinced a wider tender process would have had much influence. It doesn't look transparent enough for us to ever know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, davemclaren said: 😳 Sorry.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowestjambo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, davemclaren said: I would assume a wider public tender would have taken a lot more time than the ‘structured’ one they did. I’m not sure anyone, outside the public sector uses that approach much. I do understand why some people suspect nepotism due to her brother’s company winning that tender but I would hope, and assume, the other directors would ensure it was managed correctly by the independent body that ran it. On the contrary Dave, The Private sector would never buy anything without obtaining at least 3 quotes. The waste in the Public Sector is unbelievable, you only have to look at the Trams and the Parliament building for examples. Buyers would be sacked if contracts were awarded to friends and family, without having comparable quotes. The fact Ann Budge is such an astute Business Woman, makes the overspend even more remarkable!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, davemclaren said: 😳 She was on the committee overseeing the project and pushed for the 3xtra spend leave it at that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, FruitJuice said: She was on the committee overseeing the project and pushed for the 3xtra spend leave it at that Bovis the main contractor for the parliament had a contract for 10% of the final build cost. They managed the project. Now let me think why that could possibly go wrong. The next phase of the trams is being done in a totally different way. Anyway back to a more important build 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot since 86 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 25 minutes ago, CJGJ said: 'We' were kept in the loop..you have failed to do your homework so no point in blaming others for your own failings If you are a contributor then you have more than one chance to ask questions and you have not done so ..hence you failed to do your homework..no point in blaming others for pointing this out to you Did you ask ?..no so again you expect someone else to do the work for you which is just lazy and to blame people for your failings of organisation is simply wrong If it meant that much to you then clearly you should have investigated and not relied on others to do the work for you I’m going to back out of this as my original response was deleted. Suffice to say I follow this team to watch football not get involved in holding our clubs board and member owner representatives to account, I would suggest the average football fan in this country doesn’t either, The onus should be on FOH and our board to be transparent and I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, gowestjambo said: On the contrary Dave, The Private sector would never buy anything without obtaining at least 3 quotes. The waste in the Public Sector is unbelievable, you only have to look at the Trams and the Parliament building for examples. Buyers would be sacked if contracts were awarded to friends and family, without having comparable quotes. The fact Ann Budge is such an astute Business Woman, makes the overspend even more remarkable!! I’ve been involved in various tendering processes in the private sector over the years and I don’t think we disagree. They did conduct a structured tendering process which I imagine would involve asking a handful of companies to tender, however I don’t know that as fact. My public sector comments related to open tendering where they publicly ask for tender from anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, gowestjambo said: On the contrary Dave, The Private sector would never buy anything without obtaining at least 3 quotes. The waste in the Public Sector is unbelievable, you only have to look at the Trams and the Parliament building for examples. Buyers would be sacked if contracts were awarded to friends and family, without having comparable quotes. The fact Ann Budge is such an astute Business Woman, makes the overspend even more remarkable!! I'm not suggesting any wrong doing but if your main financial backers are not happy (the support) with the way contracts and senior jobs are being handed out at the very least there should be transparency. And I know it's not big potatoes but someone running the 1874 bar openly showing off a hibs tattoo is at the very least fekin nippy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, FruitJuice said: She was on the committee overseeing the project and pushed for the 3xtra spend leave it at that Didn’t know she was involved at all. 🤷🏼♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Hot since 86 said: I’m going to back out of this as my original response was deleted. Suffice to say I follow this team to watch football not get involved in holding our clubs board and member owner representatives to account, I would suggest the average football fan in this country doesn’t either, The onus should be on FOH and our board to be transparent and I don’t think that’s too much to ask. Like us all buddy. And I'd say you are spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, jake said: I'm not suggesting any wrong doing but if your main financial backers are not happy (the support) with the way contracts and senior jobs are being handed out at the very least there should be transparency. And I know it's not big potatoes but someone running the 1874 bar openly showing off a hibs tattoo is at the very least fekin nippy. Has anyone actually asked FoH the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Fox Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Squirt said: I’m in the Wheatfield but I’ve sat in the main stand twice and I tend to take a walk round to the new stand when I get into the ground because the toilets are nicer for a pish and I can grab a smoke at the bottom of the stairs next to the fans bar. I’ve always thought it looked a decent size although I’ve got to admit the farthest into it I’ve gone is probably the strongbow legends lounge door, maybe it’s tighter farther down. Funny you mention getting rained on because we’re in row 5, and normally miss out the massive big drips coming from the trusses but we do get smashed when it’s windy, you have got to wonder why when building the new stand they didn’t say, let’s make it protrude just a few extra inches because we know what happens at the other 3 stands. My biggest gripe with the new stand, by a long long way, is the fact that the half way line isn’t centred with the tunnel. Drives me absolutely batty looking at it. If I had the money I’d personally pay another £20 million just to sort that out! It’s the Hearts Tynecastle Tunnel Way (unaligned halfway line & players tunnel), then, now and forever! I think all Hearts fans must be used to it by now ..... wouldn’t have it any other way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Jambo-Fox said: It’s the Hearts Tynecastle Tunnel Way (unaligned halfway line & players tunnel), then, now and forever! I think all Hearts fans must be used to it by now ..... wouldn’t have it any other way! It was a deliberate decision to replicate that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, davemclaren said: Didn’t know she was involved at all. 🤷🏼♂️ Would I get a suspension for calling her a wee cow? Not risking it until you clarify it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot since 86 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, jake said: Like us all buddy. And I'd say you are spot on. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, davemclaren said: I doubt the other directors are too scared. If the initial plan and costings were wrong, as alleged, I’m not convinced a wider tender process would have had much influence. If they'd had a proper tendering process they would have found out what the real costs would have been - these would have been set out in the bids received . As it is, the escalating costs are spectacularly out of orbit but no one seems too bothered , especially not AB who doesn't seem accountable for her mis management. After all, it's not her money she's over spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, davemclaren said: I’ve been involved in various tendering processes in the private sector over the years and I don’t think we disagree. They did conduct a structured tendering process which I imagine would involve asking a handful of companies to tender, however I don’t know that as fact. My public sector comments related to open tendering where they publicly ask for tender from anyone. The club never made this clear ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambo-Fox Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, davemclaren said: It was a deliberate decision to replicate that. And what a good decision it was! There would have been outrage if it had been done any other way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 25 minutes ago, jake said: Fair points. So what's the point of representation from the FOH ? It's something we all need to learn from. Just slagging someone of for being lazy might have some truth and I appreciate that . But I'm not lazy while working to get money to pay for season tickets and contribute. Football first put up some figures at the start of the thread. Not really very detailed. No offence to him . We cant all be mobbing the club for info so I do think our reps need to see if they can make the breakdown of costs more available. The majority of cash for all of this comes out our pockets. No good just slaggin boys of mate. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said: If they'd had a proper tendering process they would have found out what the real costs would have been - these would have been set out in the bids received . As it is, the escalating costs are spectacularly out of orbit but no one seems too bothered , especially not AB who doesn't seem accountable for her mis management. After all, it's not her money she's over spending. I’m not convinced that tendering processes do find the real cost unless they are fixed price which tends to have a lot of risk cost built in. Anyway, what was improper about this tendering process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, annushorribilis III said: The club never made this clear ? They made the process being followed clear but I don’t know how many quotes they got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, FruitJuice said: Would I get a suspension for calling her a wee cow? Not risking it until you clarify it I think you just have. 🤷🏼♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, davemclaren said: I’m not convinced that tendering processes do find the tesl cost unless they are fixed price which tends to have a lot of risk cost built in. Anyway, what was improper about this tendering process? Agreed - but Hearts are so far away from getting any realistic price from their tendering process it's laughable. I didn't say it was "improper". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FruitJuice Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, davemclaren said: I think you just have. 🤷🏼♂️ Well if she is member on here she complain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, annushorribilis III said: Agreed - but Hearts are so far away from getting any realistic price from their tendering process it's laughable. I didn't say it was "improper". I know you didn’t but you suggested it wasn’t a proper one. 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annushorribilis III Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, davemclaren said: I know you didn’t but you suggested it wasn’t a proper one. 😎 Agreed. I think using a process that gets the required level of confidence in the projected costs is by any test "proper" which I think we all understand clearly. 😎 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemclaren Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, annushorribilis III said: Agreed. I think using a process that gets the required level of confidence in the projected costs is by any test "proper" which I think we all understand clearly. 😎 I would more describe it as ‘successful’ as , in my experience, it’s quite easy to follow the proper process and still fail. 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Order Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 39 minutes ago, FruitJuice said: Were the Leech family on the board as well..? No idea but the Leitch family were not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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