General Election 2019

[ri Alban]

20 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Two reasons I can see:

 

1.  This election is to determine how to enact the outcome of the Brexit referendum.  Leave with deal or agree new deal, revoke Article 50 etc.  You cannot make the same case for Scottish independence referendum  as the outcome of the last referendum was fully enacted (Scotland stayed in uk).  Not sure you are comparing apples with apples there.

 

2. There are very different views across all Parties about the approach to Brexit.  To be blunt you can’t say the same about Scottish independence.  Every major party except the SNP who represent one tenth of voters says there shouldn’t be a referendum and so I’m not sure how what is a minority issue for the UK and on which there is general consensus from the main UK parties then warrants much debate time.  

3 years and 3 different PM, 2 with a majority and 1 who had a working majority, couldn't pin the tail on the Donkey with Brexit. Maybe it is Labour who could get Brexit done. 

 

3 General Elections in 4 years. Yet a second Indyref in 313 years is too soon.

 

 

[ri Alban]

How can anyone in Scotland or even the UK vote for Boris and The Tory. Absolute Scum!

[Victorian]

8 hours ago, TheOak88 said:

 

Nobody wants to pay more tax though (me included). It’s a tough sell to the electorate. 

 

How much more tax (if any) would you be willing to pay? And how good would the improvement in services have to be to justify it?

 

1.   A fair amount if it's fair across the board.

 

2.   Silly question.    There just has to be radical investment and improve as much as possible.

 

The Tories facilitate society being milked by the wealthy and powerful.    There must be a wholly new settlement.

[The Real Maroonblood]

23 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

How can anyone in Scotland or even the UK vote for Boris and The Tory. Absolute Scum!

The simpletons will.

[Old Hearts]

Scum....Simpletons. Yay, the Nationalist seethe bandwagon is in full swing 😤😤😄

[Cade]

Official statement from Twitter on last night's shenanigans:

 

Twitter is committed to facilitating healthy debate throughout the UK general election.
We have global rules in place that prohibit behaviour that can mislead people, including those with verified accounts.
Any further attempts to mislead people by editing verified profile information – in a manner seen during the UK election debate – will result in decisive corrective action.

[jack D and coke]

8 minutes ago, Barack said:

Will you guys all be out staging sit-in's in the Airports & Costa's like the Hong Kong kids, when Boris(probably) tells Scotland to hush and the Indyref2 thingy, can do one?

 

Think I best make plans. As I don't want my travel home disrupted next year. 

 

 

Boris will probably make a speech something like this pack of lies. Unionists will laugh up their sleeve and enjoy the fact we’re neutered. 

But remember the SNP said it was a once in a generation vote so they must be held to that and absolutely never allowed to forget it. Anything a British PM says though can be used to get the vote to swing their way then just do whatever they want after the dafties have given the power straight back to them for another 30 years minimum. 
Sit down jock, you’ve had your indyref there’s a good chap. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

19 minutes ago, Barack said:

Will you guys all be out staging sit-in's in the Airports & Costa's like the Hong Kong kids, when Boris(probably) tells Scotland to hush and the Indyref2 thingy, can do one?

 

Think I best make plans. As I don't want my travel home disrupted next year. 

 

 

[Ray Gin]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

How can anyone in Scotland or even the UK vote for Boris and The Tory. Absolute Scum!

 

It's mind boggling how anyone can look at or listen to Boris Johnson and think "Yup, that's my guy". 

[Justin Z]

8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Boris will probably make a speech something like this pack of lies. Unionists will laugh up their sleeve and enjoy the fact we’re neutered. 

But remember the SNP said it was a once in a generation vote so they must be held to that and absolutely never allowed to forget it. Anything a British PM says though can be used to get the vote to swing their way then just do whatever they want after the dafties have given the power straight back to them for another 30 years minimum. 
Sit down jock, you’ve had your indyref there’s a good chap. 

 

Posted about this further up the thread.

 

Also worth noting the language of the Smith Report:
 

 

I guess preventing them from choosing is the strategy, then.

[jack D and coke]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Posted about this further up the thread.

 

Also worth noting the language of the Smith Report:
 

 

I guess preventing them from choosing is the strategy, then.

Ah oops didn’t mean to clog thread up with same stuff. 
The prevention of the vote is defo the strategy agreed. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Barack said:

 

I look forward to watching it all on TV.

 

Unless there's another series of The Marvellous Mrs. Maisel on next year. Then I'll be watching that instead.

Far better viewing  

[dobmisterdobster]

27 minutes ago, Barack said:

Think people are looking at Corbyn and saying

"Nope, that's not my guy."

 

The old Cameron/Miliband dichotomy.

 

I'm not voting for either, so it matters little to me.

[Ray Gin]

41 minutes ago, Barack said:

Think people are looking at Corbyn and saying

"Nope, that's not my guy."

 

The old Cameron/Miliband dichotomy.

 

I'm not voting for either, so it matters little to me.

 

Neither am I, but I'd go for Corbyn over Johnson any day of the week. 

[TheOak88]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

 

1.   A fair amount if it's fair across the board.

 

2.   Silly question.    There just has to be radical investment and improve as much as possible.

 

The Tories facilitate society being milked by the wealthy and powerful.    There must be a wholly new settlement.

 

A fair amount of tax is a difficult one, as everyone’s idea of a fair amount will be different.

 

Disappointed you dismissed my second question as a silly one. It wasn’t intended to be.

 

I wasn’t expecting you to provide a fully costed manifesto or anything. Just a broad idea of what you would want/expect the extra taxation to achieve with regard to public services. 

 

I think people like myself could be convinced to pay more tax, but there probably would have to be some sort of vision in order to get “buy in” from people. 

 

For example, if the Government suggested putting an extra 2% onto each Income Tax band, but confirmed that the additional funds would be ring fenced for NHS and police, I think it would be met with more positivity than if it was just an extra 2% and nobody’s really understands where it shall be spent. 

 

Out of interest on the fairness point, what level of income tax would you be willing to pay?  

[jack D and coke]

7 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

 

A fair amount of tax is a difficult one, as everyone’s idea of a fair amount will be different.

 

Disappointed you dismissed my second question as a silly one. It wasn’t intended to be.

 

I wasn’t expecting you to provide a fully costed manifesto or anything. Just a broad idea of what you would want/expect the extra taxation to achieve with regard to public services. 

 

I think people like myself could be convinced to pay more tax, but there probably would have to be some sort of vision in order to get “buy in” from people. 

 

For example, if the Government suggested putting an extra 2% onto each Income Tax band, but confirmed that the additional funds would be ring fenced for NHS and police, I think it would be met with more positivity than if it was just an extra 2% and nobody’s really understands where it shall be spent. 

 

Out of interest on the fairness point, what level of income tax would you be willing to pay?  

I get where you’re coming from mate but extra taxation is a very difficult one. 
For instance more money for the NHS or Police. I don’t want more people behind desks getting big salaries which is what that seems to mean now. 
Also all you hear about now is MP’s with their nose in the trough claiming this that and the next thing too, that’s all tax payers money. I really don’t want to be funding that either. 
Money pretty much corrupts everyone so handing over a tonne more of it isn’t always an answer. Why can we be more radical and completely do away with income tax and tax other things that you can’t wriggle out of? Bigger house? Bigger tax. Own a stack of properties? Hammer them. Big gas guzzling car, huge road tax etc. 
There has to be a better way imo. 

[dobmisterdobster]

The problem with simply pouring more money into the NHS is the HUGE amount of diminishing returns involved.

[Victorian]

45 minutes ago, TheOak88 said:

 

A fair amount of tax is a difficult one, as everyone’s idea of a fair amount will be different.

 

Disappointed you dismissed my second question as a silly one. It wasn’t intended to be.

 

I wasn’t expecting you to provide a fully costed manifesto or anything. Just a broad idea of what you would want/expect the extra taxation to achieve with regard to public services. 

 

I think people like myself could be convinced to pay more tax, but there probably would have to be some sort of vision in order to get “buy in” from people. 

 

For example, if the Government suggested putting an extra 2% onto each Income Tax band, but confirmed that the additional funds would be ring fenced for NHS and police, I think it would be met with more positivity than if it was just an extra 2% and nobody’s really understands where it shall be spent. 

 

Out of interest on the fairness point, what level of income tax would you be willing to pay?  

 

Yes it seems reasonable for there to be some kind of broad commitment to using increased tax revenue for a set of specific, key usages.    NHS and other vital services, etc.     But I see no point in setting too rigid a framework forcwhere every tax pound should be allocated going forward.     It's enough that people need to get used to the reality that taxes will need to rise by a meaningful level in order to fund all of our services and institutions.      Value for money is very important and that should be part of a wider review.

[jack D and coke]

30 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said:

The problem with simply pouring more money into the NHS is the HUGE amount of diminishing returns involved.

The NHS is being abused by big business that probably people aren’t aware of too. Boots being one of the biggest culprits. 
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/13/how-boots-went-rogue

[Brighton Jambo]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

How can anyone in Scotland or even the UK vote for Boris and The Tory. Absolute Scum!

Because they are the best chance of preventing a second independence referendum.  

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Brighton Jambo

[coconut doug]

27 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Because they are the best chance of preventing a second independence referendum.  

 

 

 

Why would any decent person want to prevent a referendum unless they thought their side might lose?

[Ron Burgundy]

2 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Why would any decent person want to prevent a referendum unless they thought their side might lose?

Maybe they think that the SNP should be focusing more on education and the likes rather than another campaign for separation.

 

How much will another referendum cost? That's an honest question as I don't have a clue and where will that cash come from?

[Governor Tarkin]

6 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Johnson was clearly sent out to repeat his soundbites over and over. His handlers know that if he goes off piste he'd get annihilated. 

Despite that Corbyn still couldn't land a blow. Sturgeon would have ripped Johnson a new one. Fact. 

 

I agree with this.

 

[dobmisterdobster]

6 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Johnson was clearly sent out to repeat his soundbites over and over. His handlers know that if he goes off piste he'd get annihilated. 

Despite that Corbyn still couldn't land a blow. Sturgeon would have ripped Johnson a new one. Fact. 

Corbyn tried his best to appear sympathetic, as if the nasty Tory man was bullying him. Instead he came across as an angry and tired.

 

Sturgeon would've simply repeated sound bites like "Scotland's place in Europe" and made digs at Johnson's personal life.

[Brighton Jambo]

37 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

 

Why would any decent person want to prevent a referendum unless they thought their side might lose?

I don’t want a referendum for exactly that reason.  I don’t expect my side to lose, and can justify that view that’s not just bravado, but nothing guarantees not losing better than not having a vote in the first place!!

[Pans Jambo]

Talking about abuse...

 

Did Blabber chops Boris say the Royal family should be "beyond reproach"?

 

Did he? So they (the royals) can do as they please INCLUDING having relationships with convicted Paedophiles and staying in their homes "because its the honourable thing to do"?

 

Just what are the tories covering up? What else is there? 

[Pans Jambo]

10 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I don’t want a referendum for exactly that reason.  I don’t expect my side to lose, and can justify that view that’s not just bravado, but nothing guarantees not losing better than not having a vote in the first place!!

Whats your fear of Scotland going it without Westminster then? Are we not "subsidy junkies"?

[hughesie27]

2 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Talking about abuse...

 

Did Blabber chops Boris say the Royal family should be "beyond reproach"?

 

Did he? So they (the royals) can do as they please INCLUDING having relationships with convicted Paedophiles and staying in their homes "because its the honourable thing to do"?

 

Just what are the tories covering up? What else is there? 

I can't believe not more has been said about that.

[Pans Jambo]

4 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

I can't believe not more has been said about that.

I think he just wants a class that can say and do whatever they want and be above the laws of this land. Him and his billionaire cronies will try and achieve exactly that after Brexit (if it happens). Including all workers rights.

 

Welcome to the tory UK where you will work 60 hour weeks with no contract, sick pay, holiday pay, maternity, paternity or employment rights for an absolute pittance and retire at 75. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Pans Jambo

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

31 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Talking about abuse...

 

Did Blabber chops Boris say the Royal family should be "beyond reproach"?

 

Did he? So they (the royals) can do as they please INCLUDING having relationships with convicted Paedophiles and staying in their homes "because its the honourable thing to do"?

 

Just what are the tories covering up? What else is there? 

I don't find it a surprise that right wing, English nationalists stick up for the church of England and letting them do as they please, at the tax payers expense.

 

No idea why any Scot would stick up for them, though.

[Brighton Jambo]

33 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

I can't believe not more has been said about that.

I’m 100% not defending that disgrace that is Prince Andrew but I think Boris said the ‘institution’ was beyond reproach.  I am assuming he means the institution of the monarchy is beyond reproach but individuals within that institution are not.  

[RobboM]

4 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’m 100% not defending that disgrace that is Prince Andrew but I think Boris said the ‘institution’ was beyond reproach.  I am assuming he means the institution of the monarchy is beyond reproach but individuals within that institution are not.  

The quickfire questions were the only times either really went off script. It would have been very interesting had Boris Johnson been the first to answer the follow up question about whether Prince Andrew was "fit for purpose" instead of being able to piggyback Corbyn's instinctively more human and decent answer.

[Brighton Jambo]

37 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Whats your fear of Scotland going it without Westminster then? Are we not "subsidy junkies"?

I must have answered this question on here about ten times but seeing as you asked.  I have fundamentally seen no evidence that as a citizen living in Scotland independence is going to make life any better for my family.  And actually by the Scottish governments own admission the first few years could be quite difficult.  I am in a good place in my life and my children’s future is my absolute priority.  I will never vote for anything that I believe jeopardises that.

 

is that selfish yes but ultimately I don’t care as it’s my vote and my family!   

[Pans Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I must have answered this question on here about ten times but seeing as you asked.  I have fundamentally seen no evidence that as a citizen living in Scotland independence is going to make life any better for my family.  And actually by the Scottish governments own admission the first few years could be quite difficult.  I am in a good place in my life and my children’s future is my absolute priority.  I will never vote for anything that I believe jeopardises that.

 

is that selfish yes but ultimately I don’t care as it’s my vote and my family!   

May be "difficult" but would it be any worse than 10 years (& counting) of tory austerity followed by the disaster that is the tory led Brexit shambles about to fall upon us?

 

I doubt it...unless we go all Venezuela!

[Justin Z]

43 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

May be "difficult" but would it be any worse than 10 years (& counting) of tory austerity followed by the disaster that is the tory led Brexit shambles about to fall upon us?

 

I doubt it...unless we go all Venezuela!

 

This has already been discussed also. And the strongest reason for his confirmation bias: Not wanting to face the possibility that his and others' failure to vote for Scottish Independence in 2014 in order to escape austerity and Brexit has already harmed their children's future more than independence ever could.

 

It's a very human position but a very frustrating one to have to look at and know you can't do anything to rationally deal with.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Pans Jambo said:

I think he just wants a class that can say and do whatever they want and be above the laws of this land. Him and his billionaire cronies will try and achieve exactly that after Brexit (if it happens). Including all workers rights.

 

Welcome to the tory UK where you will work 60 hour weeks with no contract, sick pay, holiday pay, maternity, paternity or employment rights for an absolute pittance and retire at 75. 

 

Retire at 75 nah, yous all will work til you drop, and even then they'll dock you wages for not doing a full shift. 

[dobmisterdobster]

Welcome to Tory Britain where you have to work five consecutive weekdays to earn a living.

 

Oh the humanity!

[Brighton Jambo]

1 hour ago, Justin Z said:

 

This has already been discussed also. And the strongest reason for his confirmation bias: Not wanting to face the possibility that his and others' failure to vote for Scottish Independence in 2014 in order to escape austerity and Brexit has already harmed their children's future more than independence ever could.

 

It's a very human position but a very frustrating one to have to look at and know you can't do anything to rationally deal with.

That’s not true though.  Our currency hasn’t changed as a result of austerity and/or Brexit and as a result pensions and house prices haven’t suffered.  We haven’t ended up in limbo out of UK and unable to join EU.  My wife who works for a government department based in Scotland hasn’t had to relocate or lose her job as a result.  My job hasn’t suffered and actually in the years since 2014 my earnings have doubled.    Overall Scotland’s economy hasn’t suffered as a result of no longer having a clear border free relationship with its biggest trading partner.

 

now I am not saying all those things WILL happen with independence but I can say for a fact they haven’t happened and there was a risk they COULD have.

 

Also to be blunt the things I am most concerned about in Scotland are NHS and Education, both are devolved and both are trending in the wrong direction and austerity cannot be solely blamed for them so don’t see why independence improves that either.

 

i know we disagree but I see absolutely no evidence that a vote in 2014 or in future makes my children’s future better.  There is a risk I might be wrong and you are right.  But in the absence of evidence and data instead of opinion and emotion I will stick with the status quo.  

 

If anyone can make the case that independence can guarantee a brighter more stable future for me and my family then hand on heart I would vote for it.  Right now no one can.  The main thrust of the argument seems to be it won’t be as bad as what happens down south - that’s not enough.   

[Pans Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

That’s not true though.  Our currency hasn’t changed as a result of austerity and/or Brexit and as a result pensions and house prices haven’t suffered.  We haven’t ended up in limbo out of UK and unable to join EU.  My wife who works for a government department based in Scotland hasn’t had to relocate or lose her job as a result.  My job hasn’t suffered and actually in the years since 2014 my earnings have doubled.    Overall Scotland’s economy hasn’t suffered as a result of no longer having a clear border free relationship with its biggest trading partner.

 

now I am not saying all those things WILL happen with independence but I can say for a fact they haven’t happened and there was a risk they COULD have.

 

Also to be blunt the things I am most concerned about in Scotland are NHS and Education, both are devolved and both are trending in the wrong direction and austerity cannot be solely blamed for them so don’t see why independence improves that either.

 

i know we disagree but I see absolutely no evidence that a vote in 2014 or in future makes my children’s future better.  There is a risk I might be wrong and you are right.  But in the absence of evidence and data instead of opinion and emotion I will stick with the status quo.  

 

If anyone can make the case that independence can guarantee a brighter more stable future for me and my family then hand on heart I would vote for it.  Right now no one can.  The main thrust of the argument seems to be it won’t be as bad as what happens down south - that’s not enough.   

Bully for you. I'm alright jack! Look outside your own experience.

 

£ worth less

Thousands of Foodbanks

Working Poor (The hell is that all about)

DWP sanctions (Or whatever the hell their called nowadays)

Kids cant afford to get onto the property ladder

Record amounts of adults still staying with their parents

Private rents through the roof

10 years of austerity

Record homeless sleeping on our streets

 

Yes you and yours may be doing OK but theres hundreds of thousands who are not. 

 

As far as devolved education and NHS is concerned. I agree, it's not going in the right direction but in every measurable way, its better than it is in England. Just imagine what we could do with ALL the levers of power & finance in Scotland!

 

Tories = I'm alright Jack and to hell with anyone who isnt!

 

Defending your family if one thing, defending that utter filth and what they have done (& yet to do) is quite another.

[Brighton Jambo]

11 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said:

Bully for you. I'm alright jack! Look outside your own experience.

 

£ worth less

Thousands of Foodbanks

Working Poor (The hell is that all about)

DWP sanctions (Or whatever the hell their called nowadays)

Kids cant afford to get onto the property ladder

Record amounts of adults still staying with their parents

Private rents through the roof

10 years of austerity

Record homeless sleeping on our streets

 

Yes you and yours may be doing OK but theres hundreds of thousands who are not. 

 

As far as devolved education and NHS is concerned. I agree, it's not going in the right direction but in every measurable way, its better than it is in England. Just imagine what we could do with ALL the levers of power & finance in Scotland!

 

Tories = I'm alright Jack and to hell with anyone who isnt!

 

Defending your family if one thing, defending that utter filth and what they have done (& yet to do) is quite another.

I’m not defending them I’m explaining my reasons for not voting independence.  Don’t flip my answers and project something I have never said. 

 

I absolutely agree that all those things you list are very bad things but I say again PROVE to me that independence remedies them?  No real signs that things are much better here than in England.  And by the way education is fully devolved the Scottish Government have all the owners they need and haven’t improved things so let’s not pretend independence changes that.  

 

and yes there is an element of I’m all right jack, but I couldn’t give two shits if you judge me for it I worked bloody hard to be that way.  Never had any head start nor did my parents.   I also pay a shit load of tax as a result, happily by the way.  And happy to pay a touch more in Scotland.  I also am an non executive director on a charity - I do that for free.  So don’t judge me, I look out for my own first and foremost and where I can I try and help others which is a hell of a lot more than ticking a box on a ballot paper and hoping the world suddenly gets better. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Brighton Jambo

[Justin Z]

But @Pans Jambo you don't even have to bring the moral argument into it to demonstrate Brighton's gap in thinking.

 

You pointed to several things--out of dozens of major things--that have wrecked the economy broadly since the Tories took power. We've discussed many others in this thread and in other threads. But for Brighton, the mere spectre that pensions could shrink and house prices could go down in the event of Scottish independence is enough to put him off--even as the news of the last few days is about house prices falling because of election and Brexit concerns and as you and Jambo Jimbo pointed out, pension ages getting pushed further and further out, right here, right now, as a result of who is being allowed to run things.

 

And then because things haven't gone south for him personally, yes, he makes claims like "Scotland hasn't suffered" when by any demonstrable measure, it has, and not half.

 

It's not necessary, and I feel it's counterproductive, to have a go about him looking after those closest to him. Is it a reasonable question to ask--how much is the moral minimum you ought to feel, as a member of society, that you should give up to pull others out of destitution? Yeah, sure, but it's not even necessary. Things are shit under the Tories and the economy underperforms under them and inequity is rife and unless you're in the top 1% or so, you're likely worse off than you would be--this is incontrovertible. We'll never know if Brighton would have treble his salary now if not for Tory austerity the past decade, and if not for Scottish independence since 2014. But we can point out, in broad terms, lots of ways Scotland has gotten short shrift by being a member of the union without losing the head with stuff like "utter filth" even if that is what Tory politicians largely are.

[Brighton Jambo]

2 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

But @Pans Jambo you don't even have to bring the moral argument into it to demonstrate Brighton's gap in thinking.

 

You pointed to several things--out of dozens of major things--that have wrecked the economy broadly since the Tories took power. We've discussed many others in this thread and in other threads. But for Brighton, the mere spectre that pensions could shrink and house prices could go down in the event of Scottish independence is enough to put him off--even as the news of the last few days is about house prices falling because of election and Brexit concerns and as you and Jambo Jimbo pointed out, pension ages getting pushed further and further out, right here, right now, as a result of who is being allowed to run things.

 

And then because things haven't gone south for him personally, yes, he makes claims like "Scotland hasn't suffered" when by any demonstrable measure, it has, and not half.

 

It's not necessary, and I feel it's counterproductive, to have a go about him looking after those closest to him. Is it a reasonable question to ask--how much is the moral minimum you ought to feel, as a member of society, that you should give up to pull others out of destitution? Yeah, sure, but it's not even necessary. Things are shit under the Tories and the economy underperforms under them and inequity is rife and unless you're in the top 1% or so, you're likely worse off than you would be--this is incontrovertible. We'll never know if Brighton would have treble his salary now if not for Tory austerity the past decade, and if not for Scottish independence since 2014. But we can point out, in broad terms, lots of ways Scotland has gotten short shrift by being a member of the union without losing the head with stuff like "utter filth" even if that is what Tory politicians largely are.

A lot to digest there but I have to disagree that the economy is worse under the conservatives.  They inherited an absolute total cluster**** of a situation (who’s fault that was is a debate for another day) but the economy is not worse today than 2010 by any measure.  

[ri Alban]

The mess of Brexit and the stagnant economy is all down to the Tories. Why are they getting away with this?

[Pans Jambo]

Just now, Brighton Jambo said:

I’m not defending them I’m explaining my reasons for not voting independence.  Don’t flip my answers and project something I have never said. 

 

I absolutely agree that all those things you list are very bad things but I say again PROVE to me that independence remedies them?  No real signs that things are much better here than in England.  And by the way education is fully devolved the Scottish Government have all the owners they need and haven’t improved things so let’s not pretend independence changes that.  

 

and yes there is an element of I’m all right jack, but I couldn’t give too shits if you judge me for it I worked bloody hard to be that way.  Never had any head start nor did my parents.   I also pay a shit load of tax as a result, happily by the way.  And happy to pay a touch more in Scotland.  I also am an non executive director on a charity - I do that for free.  So don’t judge me, I look out for my own first and foremost and where I can I try and help others which is a hell of a lot more than ticking a box on a ballot paper and hoping the world suddenly gets better. 

It doenst need PROVING. 

 

With controls over Scotland resources:

 

10 years of austerity would be gone which is the main reason most of these things have happened.

Scotland wouldnt spend on shite like Nuclear weapons or HS2 or Hinckley or wars in the middle east.

A responsible social society system which includes looking after our pensioners, disabled and unemployed etc.

Build even more social housing.

etc.

etc.

We would not be following the current spending priorities of the Westminster far right lot.

 

Of course someone will be along shortly to say Scotland is shite and we couldnt afford shit without Westminster etc.

 

SSDD and so it goes round.

 

What charity bud?

 

[Pans Jambo]

3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said:

A lot to digest there but I have to disagree that the economy is worse under the conservatives.  They inherited an absolute total cluster**** of a situation (who’s fault that was is a debate for another day) but the economy is not worse today than 2010 by any measure.  

I would say at least £1.2Trillion pounds has been added to the UK debt burden which means extra wonga in interest payments. 

Cant be a good thing surely?

More Billionaires in the UK and more foodbanks since 2010. Dont tell me thats not related!

 

It's the tories mate. Dont apologise for them!

 

[Brighton Jambo]

5 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

But @Pans Jambo you don't even have to bring the moral argument into it to demonstrate Brighton's gap in thinking.

 

You pointed to several things--out of dozens of major things--that have wrecked the economy broadly since the Tories took power. We've discussed many others in this thread and in other threads. But for Brighton, the mere spectre that pensions could shrink and house prices could go down in the event of Scottish independence is enough to put him off--even as the news of the last few days is about house prices falling because of election and Brexit concerns and as you and Jambo Jimbo pointed out, pension ages getting pushed further and further out, right here, right now, as a result of who is being allowed to run things.

 

And then because things haven't gone south for him personally, yes, he makes claims like "Scotland hasn't suffered" when by any demonstrable measure, it has, and not half.

 

It's not necessary, and I feel it's counterproductive, to have a go about him looking after those closest to him. Is it a reasonable question to ask--how much is the moral minimum you ought to feel, as a member of society, that you should give up to pull others out of destitution? Yeah, sure, but it's not even necessary. Things are shit under the Tories and the economy underperforms under them and inequity is rife and unless you're in the top 1% or so, you're likely worse off than you would be--this is incontrovertible. We'll never know if Brighton would have treble his salary now if not for Tory austerity the past decade, and if not for Scottish independence since 2014. But we can point out, in broad terms, lots of ways Scotland has gotten short shrift by being a member of the union without losing the head with stuff like "utter filth" even if that is what Tory politicians largely are.

Also it’s easy to throw around lines like the moral minimum to help those in society.  But where’s the evidence that an independent Scotland would?  You hope and believe it would but you don’t know.  The current Scottish government hasn’t despite being in power for years.  Your opinion and beliefs are that with more power they may do but you don’t know.  

 

For the record as said before I won’t be voting conservatives in the election as there is far too much I don’t agree with.  But not liking them doesn’t translate to suddenly wanting independence 

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

11 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

But @Pans Jambo you don't even have to bring the moral argument into it to demonstrate Brighton's gap in thinking.

 

You pointed to several things--out of dozens of major things--that have wrecked the economy broadly since the Tories took power. We've discussed many others in this thread and in other threads. But for Brighton, the mere spectre that pensions could shrink and house prices could go down in the event of Scottish independence is enough to put him off--even as the news of the last few days is about house prices falling because of election and Brexit concerns and as you and Jambo Jimbo pointed out, pension ages getting pushed further and further out, right here, right now, as a result of who is being allowed to run things.

 

And then because things haven't gone south for him personally, yes, he makes claims like "Scotland hasn't suffered" when by any demonstrable measure, it has, and not half.

 

It's not necessary, and I feel it's counterproductive, to have a go about him looking after those closest to him. Is it a reasonable question to ask--how much is the moral minimum you ought to feel, as a member of society, that you should give up to pull others out of destitution? Yeah, sure, but it's not even necessary. Things are shit under the Tories and the economy underperforms under them and inequity is rife and unless you're in the top 1% or so, you're likely worse off than you would be--this is incontrovertible. We'll never know if Brighton would have treble his salary now if not for Tory austerity the past decade, and if not for Scottish independence since 2014. But we can point out, in broad terms, lots of ways Scotland has gotten short shrift by being a member of the union without losing the head with stuff like "utter filth" even if that is what Tory politicians largely are.

I agree mate. Tories and their serial justifiers just boil ma pish!

[Brighton Jambo]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

I would say at least £1.2Trillion pounds has been added to the UK debt burden which means extra wonga in interest payments. 

Cant be a good thing surely?

More Billionaires in the UK and more foodbanks since 2010. Dont tell me thats not related!

 

It's the tories mate. Dont apologise for them!

 

I’m not but let’s not just talk shit and say the economy is worse than it was ten years ago?  Blatant bullshit doesn’t help anyone.

 

Equality is worse I will grant and is one of the reasons why for the 100th time I am not voting for them.  

[Old Hearts]

2 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

I’m 100% not defending that disgrace that is Prince Andrew but I think Boris said the ‘institution’ was beyond reproach.  I am assuming he means the institution of the monarchy is beyond reproach but individuals within that institution are not.  

This is exactly what he said. .... He even followed up by saying that they aren't above the law.

 

Just another example of people just hearing what they want to hear

[maroonlegions]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

Welcome to Tory Britain where you have to work five consecutive weekdays to earn a living.

 

Oh the humanity!

You missed out the part that people need two fecking jobs just to exist mate...10 years of wage rise stagnation too , Oh the fecking non humanity of it..