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David McCaig
6 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Yes for most circumstances. Its why FOH will end up with 75.1%.

 

He will probably have to make an offer for all other shares anyway to comply with TOP rules. Shareholders don't need to accept the offer though. 

Cheers FF

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Coburg Hearts

To put it in a little perspective, the total wealth* of the new Hibs czar is less than what top English clubs are spending on one player. 

Add to that, they no longer have the security of having Farmer to fall back on. If I was one of them I'd be a tad concerned if things go pear shaped.

*Based his wealth at £60,000,000, but could well be wrong.

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Gilberts Fridge
13 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

Yes for most circumstances. Its why FOH will end up with 75.1%.

 

He will probably have to make an offer for all other shares anyway to comply with TOP rules. Shareholders don't need to accept the offer though. 

 

Is that what Dave King was forced to do with Rangers.

 

If it is its a win win, either a few of them sell to give him over 75% or they organise themselves to oppose selling more to him, piss him off and ruin the fledgling beautiful relationship. 

 

I've said it a number of times, if HSL and fan ownership was so important to STF, this would have all been safeguarded as part of the deal. It seems to me that he has sold out from under them and the HSL shares could be effectively worthless in the governance of Hibs going forward  

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The Old Tolbooth
1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

 

Not entirely sure on that although they were not in charitable mood after the cup final. If we'd been pumped 5-1 by a Hibs team about to enter admin I'd like to see the sympathy on here. I reckon eff them would be the overriding emotion.

 

They wanted us dead and buried long before 2012 mate, they wanted us to die just before Robinson came to town, and then again at the end of the Romanov era, they were utterly desperate for it to happen, don't get me wrong, there were a few who didn't, but it was definitely a majority who wanted us out of business altogether, so if karma was to come back and bite them, I'd buy popcorn and start smoking a cigar, and watch that shit unfold with the biggest, cheesiest, silliest grin on my face that you can ever imagine! 

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corryjambo
2 minutes ago, The Old Tolbooth said:

 

They wanted us dead and buried long before 2012 mate, they wanted us to die just before Robinson came to town, and then again at the end of the Romanov era, they were utterly desperate for it to happen, don't get me wrong, there were a few who didn't, but it was definitely a majority who wanted us out of business altogether, so if karma was to come back and bite them, I'd buy popcorn and start smoking a cigar, and watch that shit unfold with the biggest, cheesiest, silliest grin on my face that you can ever imagine! 

 

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16 minutes ago, Coburg Hearts said:

To put it in a little perspective, the total wealth* of the new Hibs czar is less than what top English clubs are spending on one player. 

Add to that, they no longer have the security of having Farmer to fall back on. If I was one of them I'd be a tad concerned if things go pear shaped.

*Based his wealth at £60,000,000, but could well be wrong.

 

I presuming this wealth figure is taken from the $75m that one of his previous companies sold some of their assets for. 

There is nothing in that to suggest he himself trousered that full amount. 

There could have been other shareholders, bank loans, tax etc to consider. 

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1 hour ago, davemclaren said:

Be interesting ti get HSL’s take on this as their plans have just turned to dust, it would seem. 

 

Their silence probably tells it’s own  story. They like everyone else didn’t have a clue this was coming and are probably desperately trying to find out wtf is going on! Still though if any .netter asks a question they're a yam! Yet they rip us for blindly following Romanov...

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37 minutes ago, Coburg Hearts said:

To put it in a little perspective, the total wealth* of the new Hibs czar is less than what top English clubs are spending on one player. 

Add to that, they no longer have the security of having Farmer to fall back on. If I was one of them I'd be a tad concerned if things go pear shaped.

*Based his wealth at £60,000,000, but could well be wrong.

 

Its correct that Sir Tom Farmer would never have done anything to put the future of Hibs in doubt. 

 

That is no longer the case. 

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August Landmesser

So... is this the long-awaited level playing field, or are they now financially doping?

 

Either way, we've nothing to be concerned about by the sound of how things are unfolding over at the Tramp Nou.

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8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Its correct that Sir Tom Farmer would never have done anything to put the future of Hibs in doubt. 

 

That is no longer the case. 

I wonder if he became frustrated in his efforts to find a “suitable” buyer for his shares. If he has been looking for a buyer for some time, little doubt that frustration starts to cloud judgement. It may well be that Gordon was the only person to actually express any interest. All smacks of a bit of cut and run by him. Going to be interesting to watch this all unfold. 

Edited by Deevers
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Coburg Hearts
35 minutes ago, SUTOL said:

 

I presuming this wealth figure is taken from the $75m that one of his previous companies sold some of their assets for. 

There is nothing in that to suggest he himself trousered that full amount. 

There could have been other shareholders, bank loans, tax etc to consider. 

It was something I read earlier in the week but can't remember where.

What you suggest could have been the case would make it even better. :smile:

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...a bit disco
1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Somewhat off topic but still related to football governance. 

 

Also at Companies House are new documents advising that Aberdeen FC is changing its status from Public to Private.

Less transparency for the Dons fans going forward. 

 

Wasn't their theory that they could gain more access to investment by going down this road?

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Footballfirst
1 hour ago, Footballfirst said:

Only if more than 25% get their act together (HSL' s 18.8% plus others) 

I forgot when I posted the above that HSL no longer holds 18.8%. They have already been diluted by Gordon's action to something more like 15.3%. (based on a rough calculation). 

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Montgomery Brewster
6 hours ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

I actually think our rivalry is easily as hate-filled as the OF one. The unique history of the two clubs has made it extremely bitter. How many other rivalries have a failed takeover bid, an attempt by fans to actively kill off their rival, total domination by one side and two cup humiliations? I think many Hearts supporters underestimate the feelings of hatred they have towards Hearts. They might not always show it, but for the vast majority of them, it is just under the surface.

This

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Guest ToqueJambo

If he’s not giving them money for the squad this really is just a handover of control from an extremely safe owner to a possibly unsafe one, with the added downside of the fan ownership dream being killed off. They will find it hard to restart that, it’ll probably take admin or some equally dangerous situation now.

 

OK some infrastructure investment but typically Hibs form declines when they’re building things. Most Hibees I know are sick of the infrastructure chat, they want some real investment in the team.

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17 hours ago, gjcc said:

Dear Mr Gustas,

 

I write to you as a concerned and ashamed Scotsman to inform you of an attempt by fellow Scottish people to defraud the Republic of Lithuania of many millions of pounds. You are no doubt aware of the plight of Ukio Bankas, UBIG and the dreadful conduct of the major shareholder in both of these companies Vladimir Romanov. But it is another of his ventures, namely his interest in Heart of Midlothian football club in Edinburgh I would like to draw your attention to. Since 2006 Mr Romanov has ploughed many millions of pounds, estimates believed to be as much as ?85million, which has now turned out to be money he nor his banking groups could afford to invest, and these concerns raised many times over by the financial and football authorities here in Scotland. These concerns were continually ignored by officials at Hearts and also by their support who were happy to accept the success that has turned out to be the people of your countries money. Please also note that Romanov was refused permission to purchase shares at 2 other clubs. This is because he could not fund the regimes he was looking to put in place. This was ignored by Heart of Midlothian. They operated throughout his tenure with substantial losses which have now come to be at the Lithuanian tax payers expense. I would like to reiterate at this point that they have spent ?85 million pounds of your money. I would also like to bring to your attention their failure to pay charities, police costs, healthcare costs and uk taxes owed during this time. 

 

The current state of affairs at Heart of Midlothian sees them in administration and seeking a deal whereby the shares currently owned by UBIG, Ukio bankas and Ukio Bankas security on Tynecastle stadium in Edinburgh is sold to Bidco for the paltry sum of ?2.5million. It is at this point I would like to make you aware of several areas of prime development land in Edinburgh that have sold recently for many millions of pounds over the ?2.5million currently being offered to your people. It is at this point I would also say that it is my opinion that you would not be serving the people of Lithuania if you did not recover as much of their money that this organisation has taken with no intention of paying back. I would urge you to seek trustworthy advice on the value of the assets before proceeding with any deal as there is no doubt accepting an offer of ?2.5 million is depriving your people of many of millions of pounds.

 

Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for the disgusting way in which this organisation has squandered many millions of pounds of your countries money. I find it totally unacceptable and would urge you to use all of your power in recouping your peoples money. If the tables were turned, it would be the least I would expect of my government. I would also appreciate your thoughts on the issues I have raised and if you are able to, your intentions in the future regarding these. 

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Mr Kevin Moffatt

The greatest ever

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20 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

If he’s not giving them money for the squad this really is just a handover of control from an extremely safe owner to a possibly unsafe one, with the added downside of the fan ownership dream being killed off. They will find it hard to restart that, it’ll probably take admin or some equally dangerous situation now.

 

OK some infrastructure investment but typically Hibs form declines when they’re building things. Most Hibees I know are sick of the infrastructure chat, they want some real investment in the team.

 

Yeah, he's there to squeeze Hibs dry I think, this could be disastrous for them.

 

@Footballfirst who would HSL have to buy shares off to increase their holding to 25%? I imagine their fan ownership model now dust and if HSL sell the shares there'll be issues over who gets the money!

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4 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Yeah, he's there to squeeze Hibs dry I think, this could be disastrous for them.

 

@Footballfirst who would HSL have to buy shares off to increase their holding to 25%? I imagine their fan ownership model now dust and if HSL sell the shares there'll be issues over who gets the money!

 

You would imagine they would need to buy shares from all those funny wee companies that Tom and Rod set up with names inspired by Edinburgh landmarks and places. ?

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Portable Badger
1 hour ago, Gilberts Fridge said:

 

Is that what Dave King was forced to do with Rangers.

 

If it is its a win win, either a few of them sell to give him over 75% or they organise themselves to oppose selling more to him, piss him off and ruin the fledgling beautiful relationship. 

 

I've said it a number of times, if HSL and fan ownership was so important to STF, this would have all been safeguarded as part of the deal. It seems to me that he has sold out from under them and the HSL shares could be effectively worthless in the governance of Hibs going forward  

Any particular reason you've created a mirror Username as myself?

 

Mods could you kindly get this person to change their Username to save any confusion.   Thanks

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Footballfirst
7 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Yeah, he's there to squeeze Hibs dry I think, this could be disastrous for them.

 

@Footballfirst who would HSL have to buy shares off to increase their holding to 25%? I imagine their fan ownership model now dust and if HSL sell the shares there'll be issues over who gets the money!

There were 18 batches of shares held in the names of nominee companies amounting to 12% of the club (now diluted). That should be the starting point unless the beneficial owner(s) have a reason not to sell to HSL

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Gilberts Fridge
6 minutes ago, Gilbert’s Fridge said:

Any particular reason you've created a mirror Username as myself?

 

Mods could you kindly get this person to change their Username to save any confusion.   Thanks

 

Hi mate, have been a member with this user name for over ten years, I just don't post much, happy to change if you've had the user name longer

 

There's only so many green snot monster's a forum can take

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Portable Badger
1 minute ago, Gilberts Fridge said:

 

Hi mate, have been a member with this user name for over ten years, I just don't post much, happy to change if you've had the user name longer

 

There's only so many green snot monster's a forum can take

I've not been a member for as long as that.  I had never seen it being used in all the years I've been on so I thought I was being totally random in choosing that name.  I had a similar inspiration after the character.  Young members won't have a clue who the flock he is!!

im happy too change so no worries:thumb:

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Guest ToqueJambo
39 minutes ago, kila said:

 

Yeah, he's there to squeeze Hibs dry I think, this could be disastrous for them.

 

@Footballfirst who would HSL have to buy shares off to increase their holding to 25%? I imagine their fan ownership model now dust and if HSL sell the shares there'll be issues over who gets the money!

 

Taking the maroon glasses off, there's no way we can know that. And Farmer would have done his due diligence so we should probably give the new guy the benefit of the doubt. But with money involved who knows. Romanov had some sound plans when he took over, including promoting his business in a new market, and a history of owning sports teams before financial things forced him to back off. That's the worry for Hibs fans now. Whether he gets bored or has to sell, what then? Basically the dilemma faced by all non-fan owned clubs. A local owner is usually a safer bet but not always. Robinson was prepared to sell our ground from under us for money reasons, so this guy could too.

 

To me it sounds like he's jumping on the "rich Americans buying British football clubs" bandwagon either for profile or to further some yet to be revealed business interests. Building a better youth academy is worthwhile - although it's ironic Hibs used to boast they had the best one already (I guess Farmer neglected it) - but does he realise how long it takes to see any benefits?

 

Hibs are now behind us, Celtic and even Motherwell, Rangers and Killie when it comes to developing youngsters either to sell or for the first team. Lots of catching up to do for them.

Edited by ToqueJambo
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Guest ToqueJambo
6 minutes ago, kila said:

Do parallel universes exist? What happens if they collide?

 

I still spend time in my parallel universe where Burley wasn't sacked, the financial crash didn't happen, and we are current European Cup holders after dominating Scottish football for a decade.

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Gilberts Fridge
8 minutes ago, Gilbert’s Fridge said:

I've not been a member for as long as that.  I had never seen it being used in all the years I've been on so I thought I was being totally random in choosing that name.  I had a similar inspiration after the character.  Young members won't have a clue who the flock he is!!

im happy too change so no worries:thumb:

Cheers, I use it on a couple of sites but don't post that often, How far to Hitchen?.

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Bridge of Djoum
18 hours ago, gjcc said:

Dear Mr Gustas,

 

I write to you as a concerned and ashamed Scotsman to inform you of an attempt by fellow Scottish people to defraud the Republic of Lithuania of many millions of pounds. You are no doubt aware of the plight of Ukio Bankas, UBIG and the dreadful conduct of the major shareholder in both of these companies Vladimir Romanov. But it is another of his ventures, namely his interest in Heart of Midlothian football club in Edinburgh I would like to draw your attention to. Since 2006 Mr Romanov has ploughed many millions of pounds, estimates believed to be as much as ?85million, which has now turned out to be money he nor his banking groups could afford to invest, and these concerns raised many times over by the financial and football authorities here in Scotland. These concerns were continually ignored by officials at Hearts and also by their support who were happy to accept the success that has turned out to be the people of your countries money. Please also note that Romanov was refused permission to purchase shares at 2 other clubs. This is because he could not fund the regimes he was looking to put in place. This was ignored by Heart of Midlothian. They operated throughout his tenure with substantial losses which have now come to be at the Lithuanian tax payers expense. I would like to reiterate at this point that they have spent ?85 million pounds of your money. I would also like to bring to your attention their failure to pay charities, police costs, healthcare costs and uk taxes owed during this time. 

 

The current state of affairs at Heart of Midlothian sees them in administration and seeking a deal whereby the shares currently owned by UBIG, Ukio bankas and Ukio Bankas security on Tynecastle stadium in Edinburgh is sold to Bidco for the paltry sum of ?2.5million. It is at this point I would like to make you aware of several areas of prime development land in Edinburgh that have sold recently for many millions of pounds over the ?2.5million currently being offered to your people. It is at this point I would also say that it is my opinion that you would not be serving the people of Lithuania if you did not recover as much of their money that this organisation has taken with no intention of paying back. I would urge you to seek trustworthy advice on the value of the assets before proceeding with any deal as there is no doubt accepting an offer of ?2.5 million is depriving your people of many of millions of pounds.

 

Finally, I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for the disgusting way in which this organisation has squandered many millions of pounds of your countries money. I find it totally unacceptable and would urge you to use all of your power in recouping your peoples money. If the tables were turned, it would be the least I would expect of my government. I would also appreciate your thoughts on the issues I have raised and if you are able to, your intentions in the future regarding these. 

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Mr Kevin Moffatt

It’s still the best thing I’ve ever read. The pain, the bitterness, the abject feeling holding the everlasting knowledge that Hearts have rammed your ring for countless years. 

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He will want to make his money back at least. The only realistic ways of doing this on a short timeline, is through a salary, a percentage of transfer fees, or loan interest. Or a combination of the three.

 

For me, it’s glaring that the only money he has stated that he plans to put in, is in their academy. He is planning on selling players for profit and taking a percentage imo.

 

The Stephen Thompson model.

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Guest ToqueJambo
9 minutes ago, Icon of Symmetry said:

He will want to make his money back at least. The only realistic ways of doing this on a short timeline, is through a salary, a percentage of transfer fees, or loan interest. Or a combination of the three.

 

For me, it’s glaring that the only money he has stated that he plans to put in, is in their academy. He is planning on selling players for profit and taking a percentage imo.

 

The Stephen Thompson model.

 

The "conveyor belt of talent" returns!

 

dribbble.gif

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132goals1958
3 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

It’s still the best thing I’ve ever read. The pain, the bitterness, the abject feeling holding the everlasting knowledge that Hearts have rammed your ring for countless years. 

 

 

I think we should be thankful he did not communicate in English otherwise Mr Gustas may have delayed or blocked the CVA. 

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7 minutes ago, ToqueJambo said:

 

The "conveyor belt of talent" returns!

 

dribbble.gif

 

What could possibly go wrong?

 

?

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20 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

It’s still the best thing I’ve ever read. The pain, the bitterness, the abject feeling holding the everlasting knowledge that Hearts have rammed your ring for countless years. 

 

There's lots to enjoy there, but the single best bit for me is when he attempts to tell the guy how to do his job. 

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17 minutes ago, 132goals1958 said:

 

 

I think we should be thankful he did not communicate in English otherwise Mr Gustas may have delayed or blocked the CVA. 

?

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Gorillajam

Just been speaking to a member of the board. He's not at all worried and I quote "I don't understand all the excitement" by the announcement of Ron Gordon as the new Hibs owner. Our board feels the media are making far too much hype over his wealth. That the media outlets in Scotland have been reporting him as a US media tycoon which apparently is being laughed at by all of Hibs direct competitors in this league. Why? He sold his businesses for an estimated 75 million. However he also had to paid near 20 million in taxes. According to my source: he's worth no more than 50 million. Apparently the general consensus held by other SPL clubs is they don't understand the excitement/ fuss being made about Ron Gordon and that Hibs will continue to operate financially as they have done previously. They will not be spending the cash anytime soon. Especially not under their new owner. Unfortunately I cannot repeat any news regarding transfer ins AND outs. Other than we may hold out till the end of the window for a replacement for Djoum - in the hope to see if better options present themselves.

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WheatfieldWarrior
1 hour ago, kila said:

Do parallel universes exist? What happens if they collide?

 

Hibs still don't win the league.

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David McCaig
41 minutes ago, Gorillajam said:

Just been speaking to a member of the board. He's not at all worried and I quote "I don't understand all the excitement" by the announcement of Ron Gordon as the new Hibs owner. Our board feels the media are making far too much hype over his wealth. That the media outlets in Scotland have been reporting him as a US media tycoon which apparently is being laughed at by all of Hibs direct competitors in this league. Why? He sold his businesses for an estimated 75 million. However he also had to paid near 20 million in taxes. According to my source: he's worth no more than 50 million. Apparently the general consensus held by other SPL clubs is they don't understand the excitement/ fuss being made about Ron Gordon and that Hibs will continue to operate financially as they have done previously. They will not be spending the cash anytime soon. Especially not under their new owner. Unfortunately I cannot repeat any news regarding transfer ins AND outs. Other than we may hold out till the end of the window for a replacement for Djoum - in the hope to see if better options present themselves.

So in summary Hibs have been sold to someone considerably less wealthy than their previous owner and who has zero ties to either Hibs or Edinburgh.

 

In addition to this he is less wealthy than Ann Budge and by purchasing the club he has effectively rendered HSL dead in the water... Meanwhile the phenomenal FoH continue to invest £1.4m tax free per annum.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

So in summary Hibs have been sold to someone considerably less wealthy than their previous owner and who has zero ties to either Hibs or Edinburgh.

 

In addition to this he is less wealthy than Ann Budge and by purchasing the club he has effectively rendered HSL dead in the water... Meanwhile the phenomenal FoH continue to invest £1.4m tax free per annum.

 

 

 

Meanwhile on planet hibs they’re discussing filling in the corners of Easter road to expand the capacity...... the corners may well get filled in with bricks for new flats! 20 million quids worth of Edinburgh land bought for 6 million boys no daft that’s for sure!

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David McCaig
2 minutes ago, Rudy T said:

 

Meanwhile on planet hibs they’re discussing filling in the corners of Easter road to expand the capacity...... the corners may well get filled in with bricks for new flats! 20 million quids worth of Edinburgh land bought for 6 million boys no daft that’s for sure!

Filling in the corners whilst admitting that the ugly cutaways in the current stand are due to squeezing the ground into the perimeters of the land they actually own!!!

 

They also ignore petty inconveniences like roads, pavements and tenements..

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baron of ness

It's my understanding the yank wants Hibs built through there Academy. 

Move that tractor how to drive a combined harvester 

Wellies supplied so they can play hoof  ball and a shovel ,to move the shite

 

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44 minutes ago, David McCaig said:

Filling in the corners whilst admitting that the ugly cutaways in the current stand are due to squeezing the ground into the perimeters of the land they actually own!!!

 

They also ignore petty inconveniences like roads, pavements and tenements..

 

Filling in the corners with what? Student flats?

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Johnny Sandiego

What i've found hillarous reading on Hibs.net is the compelete contradiction when it comes to financial matters.

 

When our accounts came out they had a multi page thread full of roasters throwing the toys out the pram demanding transparity about who the mystery benefactor is. Rambling on about cheating and how unfair everything is.

 

Suddenly when some random decides to "clear their debt" without really explaining why, or what this means for HSL etc. they become the complete opposite, and come out with stuff like "Hibs don't have to explain anything" and "why would we tell our rivals about our financial dealings". You really can't make it up. 

 

They talked about Ann Budge "proping us up" and how we will be in the same mess when her money runs out, yet here they are lapping up a hand out with one life long fan even hailing it "the greatest day in the clubs history"

 

They have a major identity crisis. They have no idea who they are, where they want to go or what they want to acheive. They hoped this news would be met with wide spread panic from Hearts fans, but only a mere 3 days later the novelty has worn off to the point they are now bickering about it. 

 

Oh to be a hibs fan ideed ?

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This will end in tears for sure , am I looking forward to watching this unfold, as we march on to fan ownership 

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Bridge of Djoum
55 minutes ago, gjcc said:

 

Filling in the corners with what? Student flats?

Syringe exchanges, pay day loan kiosks and Methadone dispensing machines I'd imagine.

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Bridge of Djoum

''Kickback is in meltdown''...

 

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?340374-KickBack-is-in-meltdown!

 

Where aboots, likesay? All we've done is ****** laugh at them. 

 

They're like a different ****** species that lot.

 

Coaching Staffiwasthere1972's Avatar
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Wait until we announce plans to build a 400 room five star hotel on Easter Road. They're only jealous.
 
 
A halfway house for dossers and incest obsessed bottom feeders doth not make a ''400 room, 5 star hotel''

 

Edited by Bridge of Djoum
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Bridge of Djoum
1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said:

IMG_20190705_214758.jpg

The Shan Giro in all it's resplendent glory.

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Coburg Hearts

Back in the fifties Hibs fans used to sing a song about  Gordon Smith entitled - A Gordon For Me. Thought I'd have a bit fun and change it about a bit. Silly, I know, but what the hell.

 

A Gordon for them

A Gordon for them

If you're no a Gordon you're no use to them

The Petrie's are braw, the Farmer's anaw

But the cocky wee Gordon's the pride of them al.

 

But he took all the gold

And the ground has been sold

The club's on it's knees and it's ready to fold

They thought they were braw, thought they had it all

But the cocky wee hobos were left with f***-all.

 

So it's Jam Tarts for me

It's Jam Tarts for me

If you don't follow Hearts you are no use to me

Edinburgh City are braw, the Spartan's anaw

But Heart of Midlothian are the pride of them all.

 

I'm bored, I know. :smile:

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14 minutes ago, Bridge of Djoum said:

''Kickback is in meltdown''...

 

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?340374-KickBack-is-in-meltdown!

 

Where aboots, likesay? All we've done is ****** laugh at them. 

 

They're like a different ****** species that lot.

 

Coaching Staffiwasthere1972's Avatar
Join Date
Mar 2004
Location
Edinburgh South
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20,811
 
Wait until we announce plans to build a 400 room five star hotel on Easter Road. They're only jealous.
 
 
A halfway house for dossers and incest obsessed bottom feeders doth not make a ''400 room, 5 star hotel''

 

 

Thats the best thread on there at the moment. The HSL question has started to raise its head and dissenting voices previous shouted down now seem to be getting slightly more creditability. Kickback is laughing its tits off should perhaps be the title.

Edited by Rudy T
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