How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Scotland has always been a nation. Catalonia has not.

 

Stoap greetin. 

I'm not greetin. Despite that though both are requests for self determination and would open up a can of worms for the EU. 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

3 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Mate as discussed before I have a degree in this so know quite a bit. 

Yet you know nothing about being forced to join schengen and the euro? 

[Class of 75]

8 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

My rationale for this is that both have a higher standard of living with first class public services paid for by high levels of taxation. How will Sturgeon convince the Scottish electorate to pay higher taxes in return for these services when the subsidy from Westminster is removed? 

[Class of 75]

2 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Yet you know nothing about being forced to join schengen and the euro? 

That will be the terms. Free borderless movement and a united currency are the foundations of the EU. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Class of 75

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

That will be the terms. 

[Class of 75]

1 minute ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

In time. Denmark has an agreement with the EU but when requested will join the Euro. Scotland will not have that luxury and as has been discussed on here countless times, will not be able to have access to a viable currency. They could request to use Sterling but with no credit or the Bank of England refusing to support would be problematic. 

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

1 minute ago, Class of 75 said:

In time. Denmark has an agreement with the EU but when requested will join the Euro. Scotland will not have that luxury and as has been discussed on here countless times, will not be able to have access to a viable currency. They could request to use Sterling but with no credit or the Bank of England refusing to support would be problematic. 

Pish. Did you go to the same uni as gillian mckeith? 

[Class of 75]

6 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

However, although not using the Euro, Denmark is tied to the ERM. Its currency fluctuates in line with the Euro. 

[Class of 75]

Just now, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Pish. Did you go to the same uni as gillian mckeith? 

No, give me some credit 

[dobmisterdobster]

All new member states are obliged to join the exchange rate mechanism and the Euro. Scotland would use the Euro if it joined as an independent country.

Countries who retained their currencies are grandfathered in. This is not the case for new member states.

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

Just now, Class of 75 said:

However, although not using the Euro, Denmark is tied to the ERM. Its currency fluctuates in line with the Euro. 

Yes. You're wrong. 

[Class of 75]

10 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

Yes. You're wrong. 

With all due respect I don't think I am. They agreed an opt out in 1992 via the Maastrict Treaty which allowed their currency to fluctuate within 2.25% of the Euro. So they are tied to the Euro and it is in their interests to have a strong currency. 

[Who_put_the_ball_in...]

44 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Like Sweden and Denmark?

 

 

Majority of those in Scotland voted remain. Only standing up for the electorate in her remit.

The majority also voted to remain in the UK

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

57 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

 

35 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

With all due respect I don't think I am. They agreed an opt out in 1992 via the Maastrict Treaty which allowed their currency to fluctuate within 2.25% of the Euro. So they are tied to the Euro and it is in their interests to have a strong currency. 

It's like going round in ****ing circles.

[TheOak88]

1 hour ago, Class of 75 said:

Mate as discussed before I have a degree in this so know quite a bit. 

Out of interest what is your degree in?

[luckydug]

1 hour ago, dobmisterdobster said:

If there was another independence referendum which I highly doubt there will be, I would vote No.

Boris would need to give permission for Sturgeon to hold one and he would be stupid allow it.

Boris would need to win an election to have any say.

Unless you think this government can stumble on with no majority.

One more by election loss and they are fecked. 

Another 1998 style clear out of Scottish Tories is on the cards.

[TheOak88]

6 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Boris would need to win an election to have any say.

Unless you think this government can stumble on with no majority.

One more by election loss and they are fecked. 

Another 1998 style clear out of Scottish Tories is on the cards.

Doubt it. Tories are still the 2nd biggest party in Scotland. 

[jake]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Leaving the EU and becoming an independent nation state are two completely different things Jake.

 

Why would it take years? Worked ok in the former USSR, Czekoslovakia etc. Historically, India, Canada, USA, Ireland even.

The former Soviet Union is more akin to the EU than the UK.

Leaving the EU is of course different to us leaving the UK.

It will take years to leave the EU and every piece of bad news will be blamed on us leaving.

It's the exact same narrative that's being dished out against independence.

And that's after 1 poll.

And I wouldn't quite say it worked well if you put Yugoslavia in the equation.

All those other nations got their independence in other ways apart from the ballot box.

 

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Class of 75 said:

However, although not using the Euro, Denmark is tied to the ERM. Its currency fluctuates in line with the Euro. 

With opt outs

[Cade]

The "new members have to join the EURO" thing is a bit more complex than it appears.

In much the same way that the home nations get to play international football as separate nations, there is special dispensation given to nations unwilling to join the EURO.

Nobody has been forcibly moved over to the EURO against their will.

All the rule means in practice is that you pledge to join the EURO at some point in the future.

Only 19 of the 27 member states use EURO.

 

It's just another stupid myth that unionists love to bring up again and again.

 

[Boris]

8 minutes ago, jake said:

The former Soviet Union is more akin to the EU than the UK.

 

In what way?

 

8 minutes ago, jake said:

Leaving the EU is of course different to us leaving the UK.

 

Thanks. That was my point.

 

8 minutes ago, jake said:

It will take years to leave the EU and every piece of bad news will be blamed on us leaving.

It's the exact same narrative that's being dished out against independence.

And that's after 1 poll.

 

So, if I’ve read you right, Scotland will be blamed if it leaves the uk, for the uks woes with the eu?

 

8 minutes ago, jake said:

And I wouldn't quite say it worked well if you put Yugoslavia in the equation.

 

The initial set up of the nations worked. Obviously the ethnic tensions were unique.

 

8 minutes ago, jake said:

All those other nations got their independence in other ways apart from the ballot box.

 

Yet still managed to be set up and prosper.

[dobmisterdobster]

31 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Boris would need to win an election to have any say.

Unless you think this government can stumble on with no majority.

One more by election loss and they are fecked. 

Another 1998 style clear out of Scottish Tories is on the cards.

The UK Prime Minister (Boris or whoever else) has to give their permission for a referendum on independence.

If the First Minister decides to hold one anyway, it would be boycotted by the other parties like in Catalonia. No world leader would recognise the result.

[AlphonseCapone]

I'd love the euro. Or the smackarooney ad explained by Kevin Bridges. Pounds boring. 

[jack D and coke]

I’m coming round to the Krankie dollar masel. 

[jake]

45 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

In what way?

 

 

Thanks. That was my point.

 

 

So, if I’ve read you right, Scotland will be blamed if it leaves the uk, for the uks woes with the eu?

 

 

The initial set up of the nations worked. Obviously the ethnic tensions were unique.

 

Yet still managed to be set up and prosper.

 

45 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

In what way?

 

 

Thanks. That was my point.

 

 

So, if I’ve read you right, Scotland will be blamed if it leaves the uk, for the uks woes with the eu?

 

 

The initial set up of the nations worked. Obviously the ethnic tensions were unique.

 

Yet still managed to be set up and prosper.

You mentioned the USSR comparing its break up with the break up of the UK.

I think the USSR has more in common with the structure of the EU.

 

It's different only in the difficulty in leaving.

Scotland wishing to leave a union 

The UK wishing to leave a union .

 

No.  Independence or the threat of it will see the same narrative as is being used about brexit.

On steroids.

 

I'm not arguing that they did not.

As a brexit and independence voter I wouldn't.

I think all of those countries had armed response.

Ours is being done by the ballot box.

Bit easier to ignore.

Edited August 6, 2019 by jake

[Class of 75]

1 hour ago, TheOak88 said:

Out of interest what is your degree in?

Politics and Modern History 

[Boris]

19 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Politics and Modern History 

Snap!

[Class of 75]

10 minutes ago, Boris said:

Snap!

👍😉

[Whatever]

Independence is in the post.

 

 

Tick tock

[ri Alban]

34 minutes ago, Class of 75 said:

Politics and Modern History 

English?

[SwindonJambo]

Picking through the details of the poll, I’d be inclined to advise caution. It was online only, which will exclude a good number of Scotland’s large retired population, who are the most likely age group to support the union. Anything that shows net support for independence, regardless of the methodology or tightness of the margin will be seized upon by the SNP.

 

Support for independence got an even bigger bounce in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote in 2016 before falling back again.

That said, we now have a PM who is fundamentally unappealing to the majority of Scots, whatever their views. A bombastic privileged elite old Etonian is someone few of us can relate to so if he forces through a hard Brexit as he appears to be threatening to, then a big swing to independence would be no shock.

 

If there is another vote, I predict the nastiest campaign ever. The No side have no obvious figurehead to lead them. I can see it being Ruth Davidson, who isn’t everyone’s cup of tea on the No side.

 

Like it or not, England is Scotland’s biggest trading partner and an open deal between the 2 is vital, whether in Union or not. Even if the  U.K. somehow stayed in the EU after all and Scotland later went independent but still in the EU, it would probably be fine. Open deal with EU, including rUK. With Boris the twat seemingly hell bent on hard Brexit we’re screwed either way. Ireland will probably suffer quite badly in the event of No Deal, through absolutely no fault of their own.

 

Tough times ahead, all thanks to a egocentric tosser who places his own personal ambition ahead of the interests of his country. Hopefully Parliament can stop him. He has a working majority of 1 and defections from the Tories to the Lib Dems are rumoured, which would force an election, hopefully further delaying Brexit.

[Justin Z]

3 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

Of course they would say they. It affects the stability of the UK and France would like nothing else than to undermine it. However, I wonder what Spain would say with respect to Catalonia and in any event this is hypocritical of France considering how the EU treated Catalonia when they attempted to declare UDI. 

 

We already know, over here on not cloud, not cuckoo land.

Spain would not oppose future independent Scotland rejoining EU - minister

[Justin Z]

3 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

My rationale for this is that both have a higher standard of living with first class public services paid for by high levels of taxation. How will Sturgeon convince the Scottish electorate to pay higher taxes in return for these services when the subsidy from Westminster is removed? 

 

Oh dear god. You just said you had "a degree in this", then you trotted out the subsidy myth, which even some dumbass Yank from Arizona knows is a complete load of crap.

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, Class of 75 said:

My rationale for this is that both have a higher standard of living with first class public services paid for by high levels of taxation. How will Sturgeon convince the Scottish electorate to pay higher taxes in return for these services when the subsidy from Westminster is removed? 

Subsidy? 

[Roxy Hearts]

3 hours ago, dobmisterdobster said:

If there was another independence referendum which I highly doubt there will be, I would vote No.

Boris would need to give permission for Sturgeon to hold one and he would be stupid allow it.

Scottish people are sovereign. We could take our independence back with UDI but we are not bold enough yet! There's no way a referendum would ever be refused, it's just Westminster playing their usual games. 

[Don Dan]

Show a written cast iron guarantee that an independent Scotland would become a member of the EU the very minute it left the UK then I’d seriously consider voting for independence. 

That is a written cast iron guarantee that on on leaving the UK we immediately become a member of the EU and ALL that comes with it. 

 

[Don Dan]

1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Scottish people are sovereign. We could take our independence back with UDI but we are not bold enough yet! There's no way a referendum would ever be refused, it's just Westminster playing their usual games. 

 Boris has already said no.

[ri Alban]

Just now, Dannie Boy said:

 Boris has already said no.

Matters not. We decide and we will.

[Roxy Hearts]

1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

 Boris has already said no.

Doesn't matter. Can say what he wants. We are sovereign! 

[dobmisterdobster]

11 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Scottish people are sovereign. We could take our independence back with UDI but we are not bold enough yet! There's no way a referendum would ever be refused, it's just Westminster playing their usual games. 

You can't just do a UDI without a referendum. The UN would not recognise it.

A referendum might not be refused but it won't be entirely on the SNP's terms. Boris isn't simply going to capitulate to them.

The planets are going to have to align for there to be a Yes vote. Sturgeon is banking on Brexit doing just that but it might not work.

[Don Dan]

15 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

Doesn't matter. Can say what he wants. We are sovereign! 

 

Of course we are! Then why do we need Westminster’s approval for a referendum that is meaningful?

Edited August 6, 2019 by Dannie Boy

[Don Dan]

17 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Matters not. We decide and we will.

 

We cant. 

[jack D and coke]

25 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

Of course we are! Then why do we need Westminster’s approval for a referendum that is meaningful?

Do you remember David Davis saying what kind of union is it that we can’t decide if we leave or not? If a democracy cant change its mind it’s ceases to be a democracy I think was his quote. We’re not prisoners of this union are we? We’ve asked a question once in 312 years ffs or twice if you count us being cheated out the result in 79 imo it’s hardly going over the score. 

Im not for re-running it but to say there hasn’t been a massive change in circumstances is frankly utter lies. If we get a hard no deal brexit we are entitled, as a nation (it’s supposed to a union of equals btw) to ask the people what they want to do. Westminster or Boris is only making things worse by trying to tell us it ain’t happening. 

 

 

[Don Dan]

23 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Do you remember David Davis saying what kind of union is it that we can’t decide if we leave or not? If a democracy cant change its mind it’s ceases to be a democracy I think was his quote. We’re not prisoners of this union are we? We’ve asked a question once in 312 years ffs or twice if you count us being cheated out the result in 79 imo it’s hardly going over the score. 

Im not for re-running it but to say there hasn’t been a massive change in circumstances is frankly utter lies. If we get a hard no deal brexit we are entitled, as a nation (it’s supposed to a union of equals btw) to ask the people what they want to do. Westminster or Boris is only making things worse by trying to tell us it ain’t happening. 

 

 

 

My point is we need authorisation to hold a meaningful referendum. It’s up to the Westminster Government to grant it. At present they won’t.

Further has the SNP asked formally for another referendum? 

If we are that confident that Yes would win and we have all our ducks in a row to got it alone or have a cast iron guarantee that we immediately join the EU on the stroke of leaving what’s stopping us? Why are we dragging our feet now amid all this indecision and complete ballox. 

Lets formally write to the EU and ask the question, that immediately on leaving the UK will we be admitted to the EU, adopt the Euro, and conform to the rules and regulations we currently adhere too, plus those required by using the Euro. Has Sturgeon asked that formally of the EU and had a no or yes? 

Do we go for a hard exit of the UK confident we will survive on our own with guarantees of trade deals around the world.

Do we try and negotiate an exit from the UK on amicable terms where there is satisfactory agreement of who gets what and what debt or credit we leave with. 

Like Brexit I suspect going it alone without immediate access to the EU will be fraught problems.

They thought Brexit would be easy and as we all now see it isn’t.

 

oh and after separation from the UK what happens at the border especially if we are in the EU? 

 

imo democracy amongst the UK has changed in favour of Remain, it needs to be tested first. If it’s still happens to be leave the EU and Scotland still has a majority who voted to remain then an immediate request for another Scottish referendum should be lodged and granted. 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Dannie Boy
Correction.

[jack D and coke]

6 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

whut?

You aren’t aware?

[AlphonseCapone]

****ing hell, folk still using the old Spain will say no chat. Talk about absolute ignorance. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, AlphonseCapone said:

****ing hell, folk still using the old Spain will say no chat. Talk about absolute ignorance. 

Just wait for the bank bailout chat next. 

How wid we huv paid thum. 

[jack D and coke]

Just now, Zlatanable said:

 

 

No, I am not aware of how a democratic election in the UK was false, and it was cheated. 

Is it common knowledge?

Scotland voted for devolution and the Labour Party repealed it. 

Claimed not enough people voted. 

[Don Dan]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

****ing hell, folk still using the old Spain will say no chat. Talk about absolute ignorance. 

 

If we are sure the EU all agree and the EU say they all agree let’s get it in writing. That in itself is a vote winner. I’m not sure what the problem is with obtaining an official letter from the EU saying we will be admitted immediately. If Spain agree as you indicated they will sign the document stating they agree Scotland get straight in. 

[jack D and coke]

1 minute ago, Dannie Boy said:

 

If we are sure the EU all agree and the EU say they all agree let’s get it in writing. That in itself is a vote winner. I’m not sure what the problem is with obtaining an official letter from the EU saying we will be admitted immediately. If Spain agree as you indicated they will sign the document stating they agree Scotland get straight in. 

Probably because it’s like any deal. We have to iron out a lot of things first. 

Theyve changed their tune somewhat since brexit.