JamboX2 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 6 hours ago, jack D and coke said: See the post above for evidence. Cultists etc... Scotland is skint etc, it’s too wee, haggis vouchers for currency, Krankie etc etc etc. I barely look on social media these days cos I’m drained reading the same stuff. It’s why I don’t get involved on these threads hardly anymore either cos after a few pages i feel the life draining out of me too. No danger these people would put a cross in any box EVER for the SNP. They wouldn't. But 99% of the voting public may. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 9 hours ago, Class of 75 said: What assets? I might as well join the queue- what debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunks Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 10 hours ago, Class of 75 said: What assets? Nuclear waste and a couple of subs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 So if Scotland was to separate from the rUK we’d be receiving absolutely zero assets just a shitload of debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, jack D and coke said: So if Scotland was to separate from the rUK we’d be receiving absolutely zero assets just a shitload of debt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Boris said: When you add in the fact we’ll only have Haggis vouchers or gless cheques to pay them back too we certainly are Boris mate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 15 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: When you add in the fact we’ll only have Haggis vouchers or gless cheques to pay them back too we certainly are Boris mate? Ha! It's shite like that that really annoys me. I'm with you when you say you try to steer clear of these debates because they tend to go round in circles. Not to say that there isn't reasoned debate from both sides, but a lot of the patter, of which both sides are guilty, is horrendous. Which is a shame. Unfortunately when I see that stuff I tend to bite far more than I should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 This is all a bit of a wasted debate as all the Tory leadership candidates are going to run on the promise of blocking a second referendum, a couple have explicitly said as much today/yesterday. There wont be another Scottish referendum until after the 2021 Scottish election assuming the Greens and SNP can maintain a pro indy majority in Holyrood. Even then the UK government could just keep saying no given, as witnessed with Catalonia, an election that isn't legally sanctioned would be a disaster for the SNP cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 31 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: This is all a bit of a wasted debate as all the Tory leadership candidates are going to run on the promise of blocking a second referendum, a couple have explicitly said as much today/yesterday. There wont be another Scottish referendum until after the 2021 Scottish election assuming the Greens and SNP can maintain a pro indy majority in Holyrood. Even then the UK government could just keep saying no given, as witnessed with Catalonia, an election that isn't legally sanctioned would be a disaster for the SNP cause. or the SNP are winding up to the next GE and standing on an independence platform? Win the majority of seats and so declare independence, as was the tactic prior to Holyrood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 46 minutes ago, Boris said: or the SNP are winding up to the next GE and standing on an independence platform? Win the majority of seats and so declare independence, as was the tactic prior to Holyrood? Oooft We could use unionist tears as the currency after that. There would be trillions of them!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Boris said: or the SNP are winding up to the next GE and standing on an independence platform? Win the majority of seats and so declare independence, as was the tactic prior to Holyrood? I not sure they could do that legally, I don't think Sturgeon would do anything that would risk 'independence' being seen as not being legitimate. There is a lot of sympathy for Scotland in Europe is my judgement but that would disappear view quickly if they tried to use inappropriate means to declare themselves free of the UK. Too many some countries have similar local issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: I not sure they could do that legally, I don't think Sturgeon would do anything that would risk 'independence' being seen as not being legitimate. There is a lot of sympathy for Scotland in Europe is my judgement but that would disappear view quickly if they tried to use inappropriate means to declare themselves free of the UK. Too many some countries have similar local issues. Is that an inappropriate method though, given it was legitimate previously? And if Westminster refuses to countenance a referendum, despite Holyrood voting for one, why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 Just now, Boris said: Is that an inappropriate method though, given it was legitimate previously? And if Westminster refuses to countenance a referendum, despite Holyrood voting for one, why not? I think it would result in a Catalonia situation. No one will recognise it as it would be said to be against the constitutional position, which here would be said to be a mutually consented to referendum. So you'd have a legitimacy issue internationally. And if you're not recognised as sovereign you won't be treated as a sovereign state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: I think it would result in a Catalonia situation. No one will recognise it as it would be said to be against the constitutional position, which here would be said to be a mutually consented to referendum. So you'd have a legitimacy issue internationally. And if you're not recognised as sovereign you won't be treated as a sovereign state. Fair enough - which then begs the question regards how fit for purpose the current constitutional position is. If Holyrood pass an act wishing to hold a referendum, what right have Westminster to deny it? Morally, I'd say none. You could have a scenario where independence parties have a hefty majority at Holyrood. They pass a bill for a referendum on independence, but the UK government refuses to allow it. That in itself is an affront to democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, Boris said: Fair enough - which then begs the question regards how fit for purpose the current constitutional position is. If Holyrood pass an act wishing to hold a referendum, what right have Westminster to deny it? Morally, I'd say none. You could have a scenario where independence parties have a hefty majority at Holyrood. They pass a bill for a referendum on independence, but the UK government refuses to allow it. That in itself is an affront to democracy. Two mandates applying against each other like Spain. Fwiw i think it'll eventually be agreed to. But SNP MPs may be asked to back an exit deal to get it at a mutually agreed date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: Two mandates applying against each other like Spain. Fwiw i think it'll eventually be agreed to. But SNP MPs may be asked to back an exit deal to get it at a mutually agreed date. I'm not sure the SNP would agree to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 5 hours ago, jack D and coke said: Oooft We could use unionist tears as the currency after that. There would be trillions of them!! That would be tremendous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Boris said: I'm not sure the SNP would agree to that. Brexit for Indy? Might be the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, JamboX2 said: Brexit for Indy? Might be the price. Not a good compromise. I wouldn't give you lot an inch. Edited May 30, 2019 by Class of 75 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Class of 75 said: Not a good compromise. I wouldn't give you lot an inch. I wouldn’t worry, no Prime minister, from either major party is going to grant a Scotland a second referendum so no need to compromise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Class of 75 said: And I thought this was a Hearts supporters forum. What ever your politics people have risked their lives for the flag. How can you be a Hearts supporter considering our history and come out with a comment like that? aye ok then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Class of 75 said: And I thought this was a Hearts supporters forum. What ever your politics people have risked their lives for the flag. How can you be a Hearts supporter considering our history and come out with a comment like that? Because he has little respect for the union that the flag represents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Class of 75 said: Not a good compromise. I wouldn't give you lot an inch. You lot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 28 minutes ago, Smithee said: Because he has little respect for the union that the flag represents? I think it's the Empire thing rather than 2 world wars. The British Empire was one of the most brutal and there were Scots who were part of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 23 minutes ago, Smithee said: I'd piss on the union jack, but for what it represents in an unfair union. The thing is, our relationship with England is great for both of us in so many ways, I'd hate to lose the majority of it - I just don't like the way it works just now with Scotland as the bitch. So I'd merrily piss on it to display my contempt for the arrangement, it's nothing to do with wars or empires for me. Having said that, my grandad was in the German army during the second world war, it could just be in the genes. I think it's time for a new relationship. The union isn't working for Scotland. We are being diminished bit by bit and a lot of our own can't see it. We are more or less becoming a region. Sad state of affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 10 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said: I wouldn’t worry, no Prime minister, from either major party is going to grant a Scotland a second referendum so no need to compromise. Hopefully. No British PM should bow to any pressure for either a second referendum or half baked ideas of UDI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 9 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said: aye ok then. Not really a laughing matter. Comments like that are more akin to certain other teams and their supporters. Makes me laugh really as we all have a good go at them on here yet some have the same political beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 9 hours ago, JamboX2 said: You lot? Sorry, I wasn't sure what side of the fence you were on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 9 hours ago, Smithee said: Because he has little respect for the union that the flag represents? Yes. The flag is symbolic. I appreciate that everyone has different political beliefs but burning the Union Flag has certain negative connotations and is in my opinion going too far and is disrespectful to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. By the same token what happens on Remembrance weekend with those who hate the flag? Do they respect the flag then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 9 hours ago, Roxy Hearts said: I think it's the Empire thing rather than 2 world wars. The British Empire was one of the most brutal and there were Scots who were part of it. They are one and the same. The 2 world wars involved the Empire which us Scots did quite well out of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who_put_the_ball_in... Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 I can’t wait to see wee nippys face after she loses indyref 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 25 minutes ago, Class of 75 said: They are one and the same. The 2 world wars involved the Empire which us Scots did quite well out of. Yet you vote brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said: I can’t wait to see wee nippys face after she loses indyref 2 Edited May 31, 2019 by ri Alban Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ri Alban Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 28 minutes ago, Class of 75 said: Yes. The flag is symbolic. I appreciate that everyone has different political beliefs but burning the Union Flag has certain negative connotations and is in my opinion going too far and is disrespectful to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice. By the same token what happens on Remembrance weekend with those who hate the flag? Do they respect the flag then? Shite doesnae burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, jack D and coke said: So if Scotland was to separate from the rUK we’d be receiving absolutely zero assets just a shitload of debt? It's unbelievable that folk try to argue this. I see a poster completely ignored the point despite at least 3 posters asking him. That to me suggests he knows the argument is flawed and he is simply a zealot. 12 hours ago, Class of 75 said: And I thought this was a Hearts supporters forum. What ever your politics people have risked their lives for the flag. How can you be a Hearts supporter considering our history and come out with a comment like that? 1) Football clubs have zero relevance to this debate so it does not matter a jot what forum this is. Don't start using our club's very important and proud history on a politics thread because you disagree with someone's view on the Union flag or anything else. It's quite frankly disgusting. 2) People didn't risk their lives for a flag. They risked their lives for their family, friends and country. A flag represents a lot of things to a lot of people. The Union flag has nothing but negative connotations to me for a variety of reasons that I can get into if you want, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate 100% the people that fought and gave their lives defending all the countries and people of this island. If the UK faced an existential threat tomorrow, I'd defend it despite my feelings on the union flag. 53 minutes ago, Class of 75 said: Sorry, I wasn't sure what side of the fence you were on. That sums up your attitude imo. Everyone needs to be on one side or the other. And depending on that depends on how you treat them. Will you finally acknowledge what has been put to you by many posters now that you've ignored; that Scotland either gets both debts and assets from the split with the UK or neither? Edited May 31, 2019 by AlphonseCapone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Class of 75 said: Sorry, I wasn't sure what side of the fence you were on. @JamboX2 Don't tell him your name, Pike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah O Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Class of 75 said: They are one and the same. The 2 world wars involved the Empire which us Scots did quite well out of. Nobody did quite well out of the two world wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, ri Alban said: Yet you vote brexit. Yes because I believe Britain can be a success out of the EU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, ri Alban said: Shite doesnae burn. Shocking statement and disrespectful to those players who gave their lives in the First World War and many thousands since. Not a comment I would expect from a Hearts supporter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said: It's unbelievable that folk try to argue this. I see a poster completely ignored the point despite at least 3 posters asking him. That to me suggests he knows the argument is flawed and he is simply a zealot. 1) Football clubs have zero relevance to this debate so it does not matter a jot what forum this is. Don't start using our club's very important and proud history on a politics thread because you disagree with someone's view on the Union flag or anything else. It's quite frankly disgusting. 2) People didn't risk their lives for a flag. They risked their lives for their family, friends and country. A flag represents a lot of things to a lot of people. The Union flag has nothing but negative connotations to me for a variety of reasons that I can get into if you want, but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate 100% the people that fought and gave their lives defending all the countries and people of this island. If the UK faced an existential threat tomorrow, I'd defend it despite my feelings on the union flag. That sums up your attitude imo. Everyone needs to be on one side or the other. And depending on that depends on how you treat them. Will you finally acknowledge what has been put to you by many posters now that you've ignored; that Scotland either gets both debts and assets from the split with the UK or neither? Yes but your comments work both ways. If someone is disrespectful of my flag I have every right to comment. Can you imagine a proud US citizen not getting angry when their flag is burned? I appreciate that we all have different views on politics and I appreciate that we all have different views on the Union. I just didn't like the comments that were made. I haven't ignored the arguement with regards to the debt. If Scotland were to become independent they would get a share of which assets they owned but would also have to take a share of the debt which would not be insignificant. Finally, please take my comments in the manner there were presented. I have nothing against you or anyone else, it is just a debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Ri Alban. Sorry mate knee jerk reaction. I appreciate that we all see things from a different perspective and that I may be combining 2 separare arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Boris said: @JamboX2 Don't tell him your name, Pike! Only fight one front at a time ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Sarah O said: Nobody did quite well out of the two world wars. True Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Class of 75 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: Only fight one front at a time ? Surely I'm not that bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruyff Turn Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 hours ago, Class of 75 said: Not really a laughing matter. Comments like that are more akin to certain other teams and their supporters. Makes me laugh really as we all have a good go at them on here yet some have the same political beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Class of 75 said: Yes but your comments work both ways. If someone is disrespectful of my flag I have every right to comment. Can you imagine a proud US citizen not getting angry when their flag is burned? I appreciate that we all have different views on politics and I appreciate that we all have different views on the Union. I just didn't like the comments that were made. I haven't ignored the arguement with regards to the debt. If Scotland were to become independent they would get a share of which assets they owned but would also have to take a share of the debt which would not be insignificant. Finally, please take my comments in the manner there were presented. I have nothing against you or anyone else, it is just a debate. I understand why you'd be annoyed. I agree it's disrespectful to burn any countries flag, regardless of feelings towards that country because the flag is a symbol, usually, of the entire country which will include a whole range of people you agree or disagree with. But with that said, I still fundamentally disagree with you bringing Hearts into this discussion. Cool, glad you agree. The assets wouldn't be insignificant either. I'm not a Scotland should independent for a land of milk and honey type BTW so I appreciate there would need to be serious conversations about not only the debt acquired from the UK, but also the current deficit we run, which will involve changes to tax or decrease of services as simple measures, but opportunities for increasing trade etc will be possible too. My position is simply none of this is insurmountable and I believe Scotland should be the decision maker in how we manage those finances, and all other matters. I try to take arguments as they come, but I don't always succeed. I appreciate that we both are very unlikely to change our opinions on independence as both our views I think are based on political outlooks rather than economics ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey J J Jr Shabadoo Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Class of 75 said: Yes but your comments work both ways. If someone is disrespectful of my flag I have every right to comment. Can you imagine a proud US citizen not getting angry when their flag is burned? I appreciate that we all have different views on politics and I appreciate that we all have different views on the Union. I just didn't like the comments that were made. I haven't ignored the arguement with regards to the debt. If Scotland were to become independent they would get a share of which assets they owned but would also have to take a share of the debt which would not be insignificant. Finally, please take my comments in the manner there were presented. I have nothing against you or anyone else, it is just a debate. I'm not too bothered, seeing as you're asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwindonJambo Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 hours ago, Who_put_the_ball_in... said: I can’t wait to see wee nippys face after she loses indyref 2 Obviously, no-one can be sure. The vote will be likely be very close, one way or the other and the campaign very nasty with visceral hate between the extremes of each side and much unpleasantness in the aftermath. I personally think it's far too soon after the last vote. Sturgeon has to win or else she'll have to resign, leaving her party with no obvious successor as she was for her immediate predecessor. From her point of view, I believe she'd be far better to play the long game. There is no doubt that there's a clear majority in favour of independence amongst the under 35s. People tend to get much more circumspect as they get older, concerned with pension security etc so it all depends on how these people's views evolve as they get older. A comfortable win for independence and those on the remain side will probably accept the result and get on with it. A narrow win for independence and many may feel disenfranchised and move away, taking their wealth and skills with them, which won't help the new state one bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 29 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said: Obviously, no-one can be sure. The vote will be likely be very close, one way or the other and the campaign very nasty with visceral hate between the extremes of each side and much unpleasantness in the aftermath. I personally think it's far too soon after the last vote. Sturgeon has to win or else she'll have to resign, leaving her party with no obvious successor as she was for her immediate predecessor. From her point of view, I believe she'd be far better to play the long game. There is no doubt that there's a clear majority in favour of independence amongst the under 35s. People tend to get much more circumspect as they get older, concerned with pension security etc so it all depends on how these people's views evolve as they get older. A comfortable win for independence and those on the remain side will probably accept the result and get on with it. A narrow win for independence and many may feel disenfranchised and move away, taking their wealth and skills with them, which won't help the new state one bit. It's equally arguable that they might not have much wealth or skills. I agree slightly with the long game. I do believe, and it's only my opinion, that independence is inevitable as time passes, just feel all the movement since 1999 is in that direction, and as you say, people of my generation and below tend to be very pro independence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Class of 75 said: Surely I'm not that bad? Think Boris was trying to avoid me getting my fingers burnt again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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