How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

[Pans Jambo]

[Boris]

Interesting clip from the BBC news channel.  No deal Brexit would be a hit to the economy upwards of £200bn.  Or as the man on the telly said, "equivalent to the economic output of the whole of Scotland..."

 

 

 

 

£200bn???

 

How much do we get from Barnet?  £43bn?

 

Hmmm....

[frankblack]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

Interesting clip from the BBC news channel.  No deal Brexit would be a hit to the economy upwards of £200bn.  Or as the man on the telly said, "equivalent to the economic output of the whole of Scotland..."

 

 

 

 

£200bn???

 

How much do we get from Barnet?  £43bn?

 

Hmmm....

 

Aye that will be it right enough.

 

Firstly you have some remainer prophesing doom and exaggerating figures as per George Osborne and David Cameron pre Brexit ref.  Then you put 2 +2 together and get 56.

 

You do realise that central government runs non devolved services?

[Boris]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

Aye that will be it right enough.

 

Firstly you have some remainer prophesing doom and exaggerating figures as per George Osborne and David Cameron pre Brexit ref.  Then you put 2 +2 together and get 56.

 

You do realise that central government runs non devolved services?

 

Some remainer prophesying doom?  Hardly.  It's a BBC analyst looking at the Governments own predictions/estimates of the effect a no deal brexit would have on the economy.

 

So Scottish economic output isn't £200bn?

 

Doesn't matter what central government does or doesn't do, the argument is that Scotland's economy is "too poor". 

 

£200bn sounds rather healthy to me.

[frankblack]

4 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Some remainer prophesying doom?  Hardly.  It's a BBC analyst looking at the Governments own predictions/estimates of the effect a no deal brexit would have on the economy.

 

Thats precisely my point.  The BBC couldn't be more pro-remain in their content without  getting the Lib Dems to write their stories.

 

4 hours ago, Boris said:

So Scottish economic output isn't £200bn?

 

Doesn't matter what central government does or doesn't do, the argument is that Scotland's economy is "too poor". 

 

£200bn sounds rather healthy to me.

 

I don't think we can make that assumption just from this article.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Thats precisely my point.  The BBC couldn't be more pro-remain in their content without  getting the Lib Dems to write their stories.

 

Eh?  Govt planning is found and somehow it's remain propaganda?  

 

 

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

I don't think we can make that assumption just from this article.

 

M'kay.  It's all fake news.  From the BBC.

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Eh?  Govt planning is found and somehow it's remain propaganda?  

 

You said BBC Analyst.  That isn't quite pure for an organisation with a clear agenda.

 

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

M'kay.  It's all fake news.  From the BBC.

 

Politics with a clear bias.

[Justin Z]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

Thats precisely my point.  The BBC couldn't be more pro-remain in their content without  getting the Lib Dems to write their stories.

... clear agenda

... clear bias

 

Even if we take all this as true, you've expressed only an excellent reason to take information originating from them as worthy of additional scrutiny. To dismiss something out of hand as necessarily wrong based on its source is often lazy and agenda-driven.

 

Biased, agenda-possessing sources are capable of being 100% correct.

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You said BBC Analyst.  That isn't quite pure for an organisation with a clear agenda.

 

BBC analyst/reporter reporting on the governments own figures.  That's evidence of an agenda?

 

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

 

Politics with a clear bias.

 

Again, report of the Government's OWN figures and it is somehow bias of the BBC to report this?  

 

Apologies if I've missed the good news no deal brexit stories!

[ri Alban]

10 hours ago, Boris said:

Interesting clip from the BBC news channel.  No deal Brexit would be a hit to the economy upwards of £200bn.  Or as the man on the telly said, "equivalent to the economic output of the whole of Scotland..."

 

 

 

 

£200bn???

 

How much do we get from Barnet?  £43bn?

 

Hmmm....

Our tax take is about £70b excluding oil, and vat and everything that is exported from outside Scotland.

[ri Alban]

9 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Aye that will be it right enough.

 

Firstly you have some remainer prophesing doom and exaggerating figures as per George Osborne and David Cameron pre Brexit ref.  Then you put 2 +2 together and get 56.

 

You do realise that central government runs non devolved services?

Our GDP inside the UK was estimated at around £180/$250 . So it's about right. It's probably another £100 more post independence,  tho'. England is about the national debt.£1.7/$2.1 trillion. UK  $2.5trillion

Edited July 2, 2019 by ri Alban

[Roxy Hearts]

13 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Aye that will be it right enough.

 

Firstly you have some remainer prophesing doom and exaggerating figures as per George Osborne and David Cameron pre Brexit ref.  Then you put 2 +2 together and get 56.

 

You do realise that central government runs non devolved services?

You really dislike Scotland doing well and trying to be positive. 

[CJGJ]

At this point in time there should not be an Indy ref 2 

 

There is too much going on in the UK at present

 

It's not to say it should not be held in the future

 

The mistake of voting for Brexit before the deal was even agreed cannot be repeated

[SectionN]

Voted No in the original Indyref and I’d vote No again. 

 

 

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

I will vote for "Scottish Nationalism is a red herring' , again. 

I'd be good to hear some reasoning. If that's not too much.

[Pans Jambo]

7 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

 

Nationalism is never the answer.

 

 

That the SNP you are talking about or an entire countries right to self governance?

 

All “yessers” Nats now???

Edited July 4, 2019 by Pans Jambo

[Pans Jambo]

4 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Nationalism, is never, a solution to the problems. 

What nationalism?

The fully inclusive outward looking Scottish “internationalist” one where all are welcome (Scotland let anyone who made Scotland their home vote in the first Indy ref. Even English & EU born. The UK didnt let EU citizens vote on Brexit). 

Brexit (IMO) was British nationalism and English independence in one. 

 

 

[Roxy Hearts]

14 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

except the English, the *Yoons*, the quislings and collaborators, the Tories, the older people, Vue cinemas, Tunnocks, the Labour Party, the Liberal Democrats, and the rest of the people who don't agree with Scottish Nationalism.   

Is there any sort of British nationalism or just bad Scottish nationalism? 

[Roxy Hearts]

6 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Nationalism. 

Like Farage etc?

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

 

I am confident I have made my point, and I am confident I have answered your question. 

Lets leave the thread for other people to answer. Thanks for your replies. 

I don't think you have. My interpretation of your view is Scottish Nationalism is bad but let's wash over any British Nationalism. I believe in the nation of Scotland therefore I'm a Scottish Nationalist and for no other reason than that. If we become independent I will still be a Scottish Nationalist but would vote for a proper Scottish Conservative government. I've never voted Conservative in my life but if we had a small c middle to right party they would probably get my vote. 

[jambos are go!]

The SNP said they would ask for another Referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU against Scotland's wishes.

They then said the wanted another Referendum if we left the Single Market and Customs Union.

They then said they wanted to remain in a Customs Union.

They now say they want a Referendum if we leave without a deal.

 

Are they running away from a Referendum. I am a Unionist and I want one.

 

 

 

[Unknown user]

1 hour ago, Zlatanable said:

Nationalism, is never, a solution to the problems. 

 

Nationalism is when your country is better than all the others and that's not what this is about, never has been. I've always thought the SNP's name was poorly advised for exactly this reason, people who don't care to think too deeply about it for whatever reason see the word "nationalist" and go "nationalism bad"

 

It's about self determination, about a nation getting a government that it votes for instead of the one that the country next door voted for, simple as that.

 

I don't think Scotland should rule anyone else, or be raised above anyone else, or given special rights, I just want us to be treated equal among nations and given the right to choose our own government.

[Roxy Hearts]

2 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Nationalism is when your country is better than all the others and that's not what this is about, never has been. I've always thought the SNP's name was poorly advised for exactly this reason, people who don't care to think too deeply about it for whatever reason see the word "nationalist" and go "nationalism bad"

 

It's about self determination, about a nation getting a government that it votes for instead of the one that the country next door voted for, simple as that.

 

I don't think Scotland should rule anyone else, or be raised above anyone else, or given special rights, I just want us to be treated equal among nations and given the right to choose our own government.

Good post. My thoughts too. 

[Unknown user]

6 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Are you Nigel Farage? 

 

No, I can put together a coherent, sensible argument without resorting to stereotypes or playing on people's fears. 

 

[Unknown user]

48 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

 

Ok. Here is your chance. Try to convince the majority of people who live in Scotland, whom have already rejected Scottish Independence twice in my lifetime, why we are all wrong. Withouthout resorting to incoherent, insensible arguments. And no stereotypes, or pandering to peoples fears either. Go. 

 

Oh I'm not trying to convince you, there's no point in trying to convince those who firmly believe the opposing view. What a waste of time and energy all round that would be!

 

Those who aren't 100% sure either way are the target, and all I'd say say to them is that the quest for self determination, for the right to have your voice heard and not ignored echoes through the centuries, it's the right and desire of man through history to seek it.

 

And anyway, can anyone honestly believe it's even possible to do it worse than Westminster?

 

(And that's why there's no danger of a referendum being granted by Westminster in the near future, the Yes argument's too strong.)

[XB52]

2 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

 

I am confident I have made my point, and I am confident I have answered your question. 

Lets leave the thread for other people to answer. Thanks for your replies. 

In other words when you are called out for talking garbage you disappear 

[jake]

54 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

 

Ok. Here is your chance. Try to convince the majority of people who live in Scotland, whom have already rejected Scottish Independence twice in my lifetime, why we are all wrong. Withouthout resorting to incoherent, insensible arguments. And no stereotypes, or pandering to peoples fears either. Go. 

Because we can set the policies in place which reflect our national conscience.

 

Also I believe it would benefit our psyche as a nation to be responsible for our own future.

And why do we need a middle man to set our future.

 

The currency issue is a bogeyman as is a central bank.

Scotlands worth is beyond oil.

 

 

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

Tina Turner - We Don't Need Another Hero. 

 

Scoff away, I'd be worried too if I was you!

 

Scotland needs it's pride back and we Scots need our pride in Scotland back.

 

 

[AlphonseCapone]

Folk want convinced by randoms on a football forum

[Unknown user]

Just now, Zlatanable said:

 "Withouthout resorting to incoherent, insensible arguments. And no stereotypes, or pandering to peoples fears either. Go"

Yeah, I already did that, mind. Now I'm me again you lucky devil you!

 

Again though, and no offence intended,  but I don't really care what you think on the subject, that's set in stone. I'm only interested in what a few undecided lurkers might be thinking. The argument is stronger than ever.

[Unknown user]

4 minutes ago, Zlatanable said:

The Monkees- Daydream Believer

 

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

 

Nationalism is never the answer.

 

 

True, but English Nationalism is great for independence.

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

 

I am confident I have made my point, and I am confident I have answered your question. 

Lets leave the thread for other people to answer. Thanks for your replies. 

You've made no point, other than You! are in fact,  a nationalist, a British Nationalist. Let me guess, a leave voter too.

[ri Alban]

3 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

Effed up hospitals, Gaelic everywhere- even though hardly anyone speaks or can read Gaelic, the Glaswegification of 'Scottish' culture, to name a few

Yet English is everywhere and the attempted extermination of Scots is ok?

 

 

And for the hospitals etc... Maybe have a look at England.

 

 

 

Oh and one last thing. I don't vote for the SNP on Referenda papers.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by ri Alban

[ri Alban]

5 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

The SNP said they would ask for another Referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU against Scotland's wishes.

They then said the wanted another Referendum if we left the Single Market and Customs Union.

They then said they wanted to remain in a Customs Union.

They now say they want a Referendum if we leave without a deal.

 

Are they running away from a Referendum. I am a Unionist and I want one.

 

 

 

It was an attempt at compromise.  But hey. Not long now.

[ri Alban]

4 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

 

Ok. Here is your chance. Try to convince the majority of people who live in Scotland, whom have already rejected Scottish Independence twice in my lifetime, why we are all wrong. Withouthout resorting to incoherent, insensible arguments. And no stereotypes, or pandering to peoples fears either. Go. 

Twice?

[Pans Jambo]

6 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

"@NicolaSturgeon has spun her web. Its a strong web. Its sticky. This spider is hungry but patient. She knows that time is on her side. She has a belly full of independent babies to feed. She lets her prey come to her. Blind and stupid they come. Soon we will be born free and wild"

Did you drink & post???

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

8 hours ago, jambos are go! said:

The SNP said they would ask for another Referendum if the UK voted to leave the EU against Scotland's wishes.

They then said the wanted another Referendum if we left the Single Market and Customs Union.

They then said they wanted to remain in a Customs Union.

They now say they want a Referendum if we leave without a deal.

 

Are they running away from a Referendum. I am a Unionist and I want one.

 

 

 

We'll find out when the English and Welsh decide to leave. 

[jambos are go!]

9 hours ago, Smithee said:

 

Nationalism is when your country is better than all the others and that's not what this is about, never has been. I've always thought the SNP's name was poorly advised for exactly this reason, people who don't care to think too deeply about it for whatever reason see the word "nationalist" and go "nationalism bad"

 

It's about self determination, about a nation getting a government that it votes for instead of the one that the country next door voted for, simple as that.

 

I don't think Scotland should rule anyone else, or be raised above anyone else, or given special rights, I just want us to be treated equal among nations and given the right to choose our own government.

You seem to be happy with Glasgow and Dundee deciding how the rest of Scotland is ruled!!

[jambos are go!]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

It was an attempt at compromise.  But hey. Not long now.

The fact that they are desperate to compromise is the very point I was making!!

[Unknown user]

7 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

You seem to be happy with Glasgow and Dundee deciding how the rest of Scotland is ruled!!

 

I'm happy with the concept of Scotland's people deciding who forms Scotland's government.

 

What would be your argument against the right to self determination?

[franko1874]

8 hours ago, Zlatanable said:

"@NicolaSturgeon has spun her web. Its a strong web. Its sticky. This spider is hungry but patient. She knows that time is on her side. She has a belly full of independent babies to feed. She lets her prey come to her. Blind and stupid they come. Soon we will be born free and wild"

 

You know that Scotland is going to get independence, don't you zlat ???

[franko1874]

The union is on its knees and taking its final breath and I fecking love it, I love seeing the tory party squirm and make a complete arse of themselves, I love the fact that Scotland has finally woken up and the Yes movement is growing rapidly but I also love the fact that unionists/brits (whatever you want to call them) are crapping their union jack knickers at the thought of our country leaving the uk, they are raging ? They are deeply worried and I cannot wait to see see the union ripped apart, no more union jacks, just saltires everywhere, happy Scots, everywhere. 

Down with the union 

?????????????????????????????????????????? ??

 

Have a nice day my fellow Scotsmen and hope yous have a great weekend. 

[jambos are go!]

51 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

I'm happy with the concept of Scotland's people deciding who forms Scotland's government.

 

What would be your argument against the right to self determination?

The Scottish people determined in the last referendum that we remain in the UK. All of Scotland except Glasgow and Dundee voted for the Union. You don't seem to have noticed I favour another referendum.

[Unknown user]

14 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I can and I find it strange people see it as such a strange concept.

 

It’s easy to pick individual things and get all hyperbolic but by and large Westminster has been consistent and relatively effective as a form of governance. We have had very few constitutional crisis, we have steady form of government, we have a parliamentary democracy which despite claims otherwise has been very consistent. It’s even adapted in parts to changing views with things like devolution etc.

 

People might not not like the politics of Westminster but that is a very different argument. Democracy often cone across as a ***** if you don’t get what you want. 

 

I see examples of countries every day which governance, democracy and even politics are  much worse than UK. 

 

Their is no guarantee we will do any better than Westminster. The belief we cannot do any worse is very misplaced and your are underestimating the incompatancy of your fellow man/woman, imo. 

 

Why is impossible we we will be worse than westimenstee?

 

You missed the main crux of the argument and focused on the refrain, which was really intended as a "look at the shit show of self interest from the current uk government with zero interest in Scotland's best interests"

 

But ok, let's look at Westminster. An unelected house, a FPTP system that no one would choose now, a south-east of England-centric government, an absolute cluster**** of a brexit situation, of its own making by the way, alienating us from the international community. 

 

We're not allowed to know what government funded polls say when it suits them, we have no say in defence while the biggest military targets sit in our waters, when Scottish matters are discussed a handful of mps turn up, Scottish mps are jeered at and told to go home when they speak, when the poverty stricken millions living in Britain are the topic, 14 MPs turn up.

 

The reason we couldn't do worse is we actually give a **** about Scotland, and if it didn't go well for any reason we'd have the power to elect a different government. Shit, we could vote to join a union with England if we wanted!

 

As far as I can tell the only real argument against Scots running Scotland is that we need England to do it for us. Bollocks to that. 

 

Self determination. Every New Zealand, Croatia, Republic of Ireland, right down to the Samoas and Tongas of the world can do it, but we need England

[Unknown user]

2 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

The Scottish people determined in the last referendum that we remain in the UK. All of Scotland except Glasgow and Dundee voted for the Union. You don't seem to have noticed I favour another referendum.

 

All I did was answer your question. No offence but you're not really on my radar so I haven't noticed anything TBH - genuinely not a dig. 

 

Bottom line, I want Scotland's electorate to decide Scotland's government, I can't be any clearer than that.

[Unknown user]

1 minute ago, Lord BJ said:

 

Fair enough but I’ll be honest I pretty much disagree with every word of your argument. Scottish independence is nothing to with England for me and I suggest we have very different views around our neighbours.

 

So I’ll leave it there. 

 

Anyway hope your doing good?

Doing bad when I can bud, likewise

[franko1874]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I can and I find it strange people see it as such a strange concept.

 

It’s easy to pick individual things and get all hyperbolic but by and large Westminster has been consistent and relatively effective as a form of governance. We have had very few constitutional crisis, we have steady form of government, we have a parliamentary democracy which despite claims otherwise has been very consistent. It’s even adapted in parts to changing views with things like devolution etc.

 

People might not not like the politics of Westminster but that is a very different argument. Democracy often cone across as a ***** if you don’t get what you want. 

 

I see examples of countries every day which governance, democracy and even politics are  much worse than UK. 

 

Their is no guarantee we will do any better than Westminster. The belief we cannot do any worse is very misplaced and your are underestimating the incompatancy of your fellow man/woman, imo. 

 

Why is impossible we we will be worse than westimenstee?

 

The consistency of Westminster you speak of is about to take one almighty nose-dive after brexit, let's not stick around. 

[jambos are go!]

1 hour ago, Smithee said:

 

All I did was answer your question. No offence but you're not really on my radar so I haven't noticed anything TBH - genuinely not a dig. 

 

Bottom line, I want Scotland's electorate to decide Scotland's government, I can't be any clearer than that.

The Scottish electorate did in supporting a Scottish Parliament and rejecting Independence in Referendums. Your first point  is baffling. You comment on my post that says I support another Referendum but apparently you did not notice I said it.

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, jambos are go! said:

The Scottish electorate did in supporting a Scottish Parliament and rejecting Independence in Referendums. Your first point  is baffling. You comment on my post that says I support another Referendum but apparently you did not notice I said it.

 

Can you show me where I commented on your post that says you support another referendum? I genuinely don't recall that. 

 

Re your first point, Scotland can have a say when Westminster allows it, that's not what I want. I want our own government. I also want close ties with the rest of the UK, I'd even support a different type of union/close relationship as we're important to each other with our histories intertwined. That doesn't just go away. 

 

But the situation now is very different to half a decade ago, it's obvious that the Stay in the union to stay in the EU argument was shite and the colossal arse Westminster's making of Brexit makes the independence case stronger than ever. 

 

Why shouldn't Scotland be allowed to elect its own government? Why shouldn't I try to convince my fellow Scot that taking on responsibility for our own future would be an obviously good thing?