Poisoned Russian spy.

[jake]

On a side note.

I'd really like to know which media outlet government etc we can trust ?

 

Is it a case of who we trust less to tell us the least lies?

[Sraman]

15 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

In what way is it being dealt with in a strange way?

 

Its an attempted murder investigation. Fairly sure the relevant authorities have asked for information when they have needed it?

 

 

I thought I mentioned that in my previous posts. You know how existing chemical weapons are serious enough to go to war over when an oil rich country who doesn't play by our rules uses them but here we have a Newcomer being used for the very first time, which we are being led to believe is worse than using the existing ones due to previous international treaties being drawn up and signed by everyone we care about and some we don't being broken and the international body set up by the signatories of said treaties to oversee the whole thing and ensure we all play by the rules arrives on the scene almost three weeks after the incident and a whole two weeks after confirmation from the British Govt. that the agent was a "Newcomer". The very thing they should be most interested in and involved with.

 

That's the bit that I find most strange. There may be a reason for it but as I say, it being left in the hands of our good old boys in blue doesn't fill me with confidence.

[Sraman]

11 minutes ago, jake said:

On a side note.

I'd really like to know which media outlet government etc we can trust ?

 

Is it a case of who we trust less to tell us the least lies?

 

 

Sorry Jake. At this moment in time all bets are off.

[Victorian]

To answer the latest piece of ludicrous whataboutery regarding the OPCW.      In such an instance of gravely serious criminal / terrorist action by a nation state (or action resulting from criminal negligence by a nation state),    if the government has sufficient evidence and intelligence to be certain where the blame lies (as the UK government clearly has),   the first thing to do is not to fall over themselves in a rush to publicly validate what is already known within intelligence.     It is to set in train the government condemnation and reaction in terms of diplomatic measures and other sanctions.     If no sufficient information was held the a different timetable of events would very possibly have occured.     The OPCW work will take weeks in any case.

 

To try to make things easier for the scepticals,     there would not have been an immediate condemnation and reaction if the current knowledge did not warrant it.      Don't hide behind asking to see what is known because you have no right to it.      Highly sensitive intelligence is kept secret for a very obvious reason.

[Sraman]

Just now, Victorian said:

To answer the latest piece of ludicrous whataboutery regarding the OPCW.      In such an instance of gravely serious criminal / terrorist action by a nation state (or action resulting from criminal negligence by a nation state),    if the government has sufficient evidence and intelligence to be certain where the blame lies (as the UK government clearly has),   the first thing to do is not to fall over themselves in a rush to publicly validate what is already known within intelligence.     It is to set in train the government condemnation and reaction in terms of diplomatic measures and other sanctions.     If no sufficient information was held the a different timetable of events would very possibly have occured.     The OPCW work will take weeks in any case.

 

To try to make things easier for the scepticals,     there would not have been an immediate condemnation and reaction if the current knowledge did not warrant it.      Don't hide behind asking to see what is known because you have no right to it.      Highly sensitive intelligence is kept secret for a very obvious reason.

 

 

Ah! Blind faith it is then. Thanks for that.

[Ulysses]

15 minutes ago, jake said:

Whether the article is days old or not it still gave a Russian view.

 

......was just reminding you and Notts that my posts were not only questions but a different slant.

 

But I will always say that no government should never be scrutinised.

 

I will admit to looking for an argument for it's own sake.

 

See the above?

 

First - it doesn't matter.  You didn't say there was a Russian view, and I didn't ask for sources for a Russian view, because I have them already.  You said there was a view developing in mainstream media.  I asked you for a source.  You still haven't provided one.

 

Second, third and fourth - I'm not arguing with any of that, or saying that any of that is wrong.  If you want to have an opinion or a slant, or ask questions, or look for an argument for its own sake, that's nobody's business but yours.  You declared something as a fact, and as something that was appearing in mainstream news.  All I asked for were links to sources.

[Notts1874]

So now we have got to this point......

 

Give me proof....

 

I can't I'm afraid its an ongoing investigation but I'm sure the western security services have been given information that isn't in the public domain since they are all backing what the UK say.......

 

So you've got no proof then?........

 

And repeat

[Victorian]

12 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

Ah! Blind faith it is then. Thanks for that.

No it's not blind faith.    That's the point that scepticals can't comprehend.    It's eyes and mind open faith.     Faith in knowing how things work and how to understand how and why governments take the actions taken.

 

It's you who has blind faith.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Victorian

[Sraman]

I should sincerely hope so, which begs the question why are we not allowed to know what they all seem to know? It can't be that sensitive if every politician in the Western world knows it.

 

My issue is that I have no faith, blind or otherwise. If you could help restore some of my faith I would be grateful.

[jake]

10 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

See the above?

 

First - it doesn't matter.  You didn't say there was a Russian view, and I didn't ask for sources for a Russian view, because I have them already.  You said there was a view developing in mainstream media.  I asked you for a source.  You still haven't provided one.

 

Second, third and fourth - I'm not arguing with any of that, or saying that any of that is wrong.  If you want to have an opinion or a slant, or ask questions, or look for an argument for its own sake, that's nobody's business but yours.  You declared something as a fact, and as something that was appearing in mainstream news.  All I asked for were links to sources.

The links I gave.

And I was sure I had responded to you but I hadn't (btw the apostrophe thing on here is nippy).

Anyway it showed that even msm were questioning motive.

In response to their rhetorical question they gave the said views.

Now I could post RT aljazeera and other views on the why and who but when I have used other sources it's been rubbished on here.

 

It is without doubt that Russia is governed by a typically Russian president.

But let's not kid ourselves that misinformation and media lies has not led us down a path .

A path which leads to death and profit.

And it's not just Christian right wing republicans it's our so called left .

This attempted murder is no doubt wrong.

But in the context of the West manoevres around Russian borders it's peanuts.

 

 

Btw these commas and apostrophes.

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Sraman said:

I should sincerely hope so, which begs the question why are we not allowed to know what they all seem to know? It can't be that sensitive if every politician in the Western world knows it.

 

My issue is that I have no faith, blind or otherwise. If you could help restore some of my faith I would be grateful.

There's little point if you can't even fathom why sensitive information can't be made public property.     

[Gorgiewave]

The difference between Ulysses's posts and the Russian embassy's tweets is that while the Russian embassy is contemptuous and sarcastic, Ulysses is contemptuous and patronising.

[Sraman]

Just now, Victorian said:

There's little point if you can't even fathom why sensitive information can't be made public property.     

 

I understand that perfectly well which is why, in reply to Notts post, I mentioned the most trustworthy of trustworthiness Politicians of the Western world were privy to the info but we can't be trusted with it.

 

Maybe I'm taking the whole thing far too seriously and expecting far too much from mere mortals. It's that important it's disappeared off the home page of the BBC now. Maybe it will all blow over in a while.

[Ulysses]

The good thing about having your arse handed to you on a plate is that you get something you've never had before - a plate.

 

Gorgiewave, it's fair to say, has a crockery collection of impressive size. 

Edited March 19, 2018 by Ulysses

[Victorian]

1 minute ago, Sraman said:

 

I understand that perfectly well which is why, in reply to Notts post, I mentioned the most trustworthy of trustworthiness Politicians of the Western world were privy to the info but we can't be trusted with it.

 

Maybe I'm taking the whole thing far too seriously and expecting far too much from mere mortals. It's that important it's disappeared off the home page of the BBC now. Maybe it will all blow over in a while.

The whole intelligence picture will be known by a very small number of people and shared with key allies.    Others will be given assurances regarding the veracity of what is being proposed.     

 

Does anyone really think that key allies,  NATO,  the EU and Commonwealth friends would be relaxed about the remotest possibility of being sold a pup on this matter?       The UK would be more of a pariah than Russia if they were found to have deceived all our friends and them to have provided unqualified backing.

[Ulysses]

21 minutes ago, jake said:

The links I gave.

 

You didn't give any links to back up your opinion.

 

It was an opinion, no more and no less.  I don't see why you can't just say that instead of digging a deeper hole for yourself.  Having an opinion is hardly a crime.

 

Whenever you're ready with sources to support your comment, just post them on the thread.  Cheers. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

None of us has enough information to speak authoritatively on this, or if we do, posting it on JKB would be an extremely stupid thing to do.

 

The US bombed an asprin factory decades ago while claiming it was a chemical weapons plant, not to mention cooking up a a whole story about uranium in Niger to promote a fake story about Iraq trying to get nukes. So it's fair to question both the competence and the honesty of Western leaders claiming that this is a Russian attack.

 

However, unless you believe Murdoch's mouthpieces there's a widespread consensus that Russia is meddling in Western matters at unprecedented levels at the moment. This poisoning is totally within their MO, the range of recklessness of past actions, and fits with certain international objectives it seems that the Kremlin currently has. There are plentiful reasons to think this is a Kremlin-directed action even if the public case isn't airtight.

[jake]

30 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

You didn't give any links to back up your opinion.

 

It was an opinion, no more and no less.  I don't see why you can't just say that instead of digging a deeper hole for yourself.  Having an opinion is hardly a crime.

 

Whenever you're ready with sources to support your comment, just post them on the thread.  Cheers. 

I have said my piece.

Not going to repeat myself .

 

I do I admit jump the gun on stuff I read.

 

But I do not think it detracts from my general point.

 

It's Monday.

I like a drink after work on a Monday.

Be prepared ?

[jake]

11 minutes ago, Ugly American said:

None of us has enough information to speak authoritatively on this, or if we do, posting it on JKB would be an extremely stupid thing to do.

 

The US bombed an asprin factory decades ago while claiming it was a chemical weapons plant, not to mention cooking up a a whole story about uranium in Niger to promote a fake story about Iraq trying to get nukes. So it's fair to question both the competence and the honesty of Western leaders claiming that this is a Russian attack.

 

However, unless you believe Murdoch's mouthpieces there's a widespread consensus that Russia is meddling in Western matters at unprecedented levels at the moment. This poisoning is totally within their MO, the range of recklessness of past actions, and fits with certain international objectives it seems that the Kremlin currently has. There are plentiful reasons to think this is a Kremlin-directed action even if the public case isn't airtight.

There's so much to pick on here .

Especially international objectives.

 

But I'm at the mellow bit of Monday night.

 

Be seeing you later.

?

[Pans Jambo]

5 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

HA HA if you're as accurate in your conspiracies as you are in your bigoted prejudice about me then you living in la la land. I didn't have a vote in in the independence referendum because I live in London. I voted remain along with 75% of other Londoners. Just a tip, sometimes you need to change your opinions to face the facts, not just blubber away in your straight jacket until nurse comes along with the depot injection. 

Right you are. Will do. 

[Notts1874]

19 minutes ago, jake said:

I have said my piece.

Not going to repeat myself .

 

I do I admit jump the gun on stuff I read.

 

But I do not think it detracts from my general point.

 

It's Monday.

I like a drink after work on a Monday.

Be prepared ?

While you are enjoying your drink have a read of From Russia with Blood. Decent investigative journalism from one of the journalists that exposed FIFA?

[Sraman]

29 minutes ago, jake said:

I have said my piece.

Not going to repeat myself .

 

I do I admit jump the gun on stuff I read.

 

But I do not think it detracts from my general point.

 

It's Monday.

I like a drink after work on a Monday.

Be prepared ?

 

 

Do you get paid for this?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Sraman said:

I should sincerely hope so, which begs the question why are we not allowed to know what they all seem to know? It can't be that sensitive if every politician in the Western world knows it.

 

My issue is that I have no faith, blind or otherwise. If you could help restore some of my faith I would be grateful.

 

I'm afraid your just going to have to be patient on that one because you are in the same boat as 99.99% of the rest of the population inasmuch as we haven't got a clue what intelligence is known by the Security Services regarding this attack, and that is the way it should be, but you seem to have a problem with that for some reason.

 

You say that the information can't be that sensitive because......................

Look at it like this analogy,  my family has secrets which we'd prefer not to share with Joe Public (that's you by the way) now our secrets are only known by the family and even within the family there are members who know more than other family members do, an inner circle you might say, now you, being Joe Public, don't have a clue about the inner workings of my family nor it's secrets and likewise I don't have a clue about yours.

Now look at World Leaders as a family, quite a large family but a family nonetheless, now they share secrets between them all the time, everyday of the week in fact, and even within this extended family of World Leaders there will be an inner circle of trusted members who will be privy to many more things than some others will be, just exactly the same as most families operate.

Now as you and I are classed as Joe Public so do you really expect to be told of the inner workings and secrets of the family of World Leaders.

 

What do you want? Do you want to be told secret sensitive information which results in someone being put up against a wall and shot as a spy, is that what you want, is that what it takes before your happy?

 

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, Victorian said:

No it's not blind faith.    That's the point that scepticals can't comprehend.    It's eyes and mind open faith.     Faith in knowing how things work and how to understand how and why governments take the actions taken.

 

 

And if there is something about the Government's behaviour that needs to be exposed there is a good chance that it will, as has happened in the past.  It's not a guarantee, but the opportunity will be there to hold the Government to account.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......just like people in other countries get to hold their governments to account.....

 

 

 

[Sraman]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

And if there is something about the Government's behaviour that needs to be exposed there is a good chance that it will, as has happened in the past.  It's not a guarantee, but the opportunity will be there to hold the Government to account.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......just like people in other countries get to hold their governments to account.....

 

 

 

 

 

Tony Blair has that exact same laugh.

 

Don't worry your family's embarrassing nuances are safe with me folks. 

[Victorian]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

And if there is something about the Government's behaviour that needs to be exposed there is a good chance that it will, as has happened in the past.  It's not a guarantee, but the opportunity will be there to hold the Government to account.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......just like people in other countries get to hold their governments to account.....

 

 

 

And one of the checks & balances of our democracy is that the holding to account process will be taken care of by way of a review into the way this whole episode was handled.     

[Watt-Zeefuik]

1 hour ago, jake said:

There's so much to pick on here .

Especially international objectives.

 

But I'm at the mellow bit of Monday night.

 

Be seeing you later.

?

 

Hope you have a good evening.

 

If it helps at all, I am saying that the level that Russia is meddling in Western affairs is unprecedented for Russia vis a vis Western powers.

 

If you're going to point out actions of the CIA or other Western meddling in foreign affairs I'm aware of them. Yes, those were bad too. Prior bad things do not make current bad things somehow okay.

[scott herbertson]

1 hour ago, Ugly American said:

None of us has enough information to speak authoritatively on this, or if we do, posting it on JKB would be an extremely stupid thing to do.

 

The US bombed an asprin factory decades ago while claiming it was a chemical weapons plant, not to mention cooking up a a whole story about uranium in Niger to promote a fake story about Iraq trying to get nukes. So it's fair to question both the competence and the honesty of Western leaders claiming that this is a Russian attack.

 

However, unless you believe Murdoch's mouthpieces there's a widespread consensus that Russia is meddling in Western matters at unprecedented levels at the moment. This poisoning is totally within their MO, the range of recklessness of past actions, and fits with certain international objectives it seems that the Kremlin currently has. There are plentiful reasons to think this is a Kremlin-directed action even if the public case isn't airtight.

 

 

Id agree with that, and well put. The question for me is to what extent can and will we act on that basis, and what international support we would have for any such action, NATO, EU but anything wider?

[yabadabadoo1874again]

You can fool some of the people some of the time...said WC Fields 

 

Seems...that this is underplaying the capability of fooling people...different times but here we have widespread blind drooling gullibility based on zero real information...with unconscious parroting of daily Mail and Express lines...

 

stupid is as stupid does 

[Notts1874]

6 minutes ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

You can fool some of the people some of the time...said WC Fields 

 

Seems...that this is underplaying the capability of fooling people...different times but here we have widespread blind drooling gullibility based on zero real information...with unconscious parroting of daily Mail and Express lines...

 

stupid is as stupid does 

Never read the Express or Mail in my life.

 

Apart from that I haven't got a clue what you are on about and I'm fairly sure the reason for that is on your part rather than mine.

[yabadabadoo1874again]

7 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Never read the Express or Mail in my life.

 

Apart from that I haven't got a clue what you are on about and I'm fairly sure the reason for that is on your part rather than mine.

 

Sure thing.

[Geoff the Mince]

17 minutes ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

You can fool some of the people some of the time...said WC Fields 

 

Seems...that this is underplaying the capability of fooling people...different times but here we have widespread blind drooling gullibility based on zero real information...with unconscious parroting of daily Mail and Express lines...

 

stupid is as stupid does 

At the moment you are top Tinfoil heid 

 

well done .

[Notts1874]

2 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

At the moment you are top Tinfoil heid 

 

well done .

 

2 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

At the moment you are top Tinfoil heid 

 

well done .

That takes some doing.

[yabadabadoo1874again]

1 minute ago, Geoff the Mince said:

At the moment you are top Tinfoil heid 

 

well done .

 

You in particular may wish to get some Bacofoil round your napper...

 

You won't need a great deal...a few cm squared will be enough...I'd wager....

[Geoff the Mince]

1 minute ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

 

You in particular may wish to get some Bacofoil round your napper...

 

You won't need a great deal...a few cm squared will be enough...I'd wager....

No worries mate 

 

take care X 

[Notts1874]

3 minutes ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

 

Sure thing.

Nope still lost im afraid.

 

Please enlighten us all. What do you think happened. You seem positive what you are being told isn't true. You must have your own theory?

[Victorian]

[jake]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

And if there is something about the Government's behaviour that needs to be exposed there is a good chance that it will, as has happened in the past.  It's not a guarantee, but the opportunity will be there to hold the Government to account.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......just like people in other countries get to hold their governments to account.....

 

 

 

But they are far more realistic.

And isn't it funny how they with all their realpolitik show the same level of belief in their media.

 

There's a wee inkling there uly No?

[jake]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

And if there is something about the Government's behaviour that needs to be exposed there is a good chance that it will, as has happened in the past.  It's not a guarantee, but the opportunity will be there to hold the Government to account.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.......just like people in other countries get to hold their governments to account.....

 

 

 

Yeah it will be exposed.

After bombs have been dropped.

Contracts awarded.

And political objectives been realised.

 

 

Really uly ?

[jake]

15 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Nope still lost im afraid.

 

Please enlighten us all. What do you think happened. You seem positive what you are being told isn't true. You must have your own theory?

Theory or guessing what happens based on circumstantial evidence.

Such as MO.

 

 

 

[jake]

Why do the same posters tag team on issues like this all the time.

Different things bring the liberal out in them.

Dogmatic ?

 

How naive to follow narrative.

[Notts1874]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Theory or guessing what happens based on circumstantial evidence.

Such as MO.

 

 

 

Just your own opinion ffs. Its not that difficult is it?

[jake]

Just now, Notts1874 said:

Just your own opinion ffs. Its not that difficult is it?

It is for you.

You fail to see any other view than that that's fed to you.

Despite evidence to the contrary.

And when you fail to form your own argument you resort to nippiness till the back up arrives .

 

Just saying

[Notts1874]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

It is for you.

You fail to see any other view than that that's fed to you.

Despite evidence to the contrary.

And when you fail to form your own argument you resort to nippiness till the back up arrives .

 

Just saying

I will ask you again. What do you think happened? Who is behind this?

 

Please answer this time.......oh and have you read that piece of journalism I pointed you towards a few hours ago? Its a long read but worthwhile.

[jake]

Russia bad 

Massive troop movement to eastern Europe

Russia bad 

Massve troop deployment to Ukraine

 

 

Massive troop deployment by proxy to Syria

Russia bad

 

13 facebook trolls 

Russia bad

 

Etc etc etc

 

 

 

[jake]

2 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

I will ask you again. What do you think happened? Who is behind this?

 

Please answer this time.......oh and have you read that piece of journalism I pointed you towards a few hours ago? Its a long read but worthwhile.

No I didn't but I will.

 

Notts I am not a reporter.

How the fun does a man like me know.

 

Or you.

 

But what I do know is i have been lied to.

More than once.

 

Common sense Notts.

Common fekin sense.

 

Once bitten twice shy.

 

Deny that .

 

Honestly buddy love arguing wi ye but a need ma bed 

 

Xx

[Notts1874]

2 minutes ago, jake said:

No I didn't but I will.

 

Notts I am not a reporter.

How the fun does a man like me know.

 

Or you.

 

But what I do know is i have been lied to.

More than once.

 

Common sense Notts.

Common fekin sense.

 

Once bitten twice shy.

 

Deny that .

 

Honestly buddy love arguing wi ye but a need ma bed 

 

Xx

Nobody is arguing.

 

You still haven't answered my simple question. Who do you think did it?

 

You obviously don't think it was the Kremlin so you must have a wee theory.

 

The trouble is I think we have been here before and I will be left waiting for a long time.

[JamboX2]

Knew Jake would back a man who silences opposition at home, prosecutes minorities, destabilises neighbours and is accused (with a lot of evidence) of ordering the cyber attacks on Western democracies...

 

...high time we clamped down on the oligarchs and requisition their ill gotten gains being laundered in Britain. 

 

Hit them in the pocket. Hit them hard.

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Notts1874 said:

Nobody is arguing.

 

You still haven't answered my simple question. Who do you think did it?

 

You obviously don't think it was the Kremlin so you must have a wee theory.

 

The trouble is I think we have been here before and I will be left waiting for a long time.

 

 

Don't hold your breath.  You'll go blue. 

 

(when did he say it wasn't the Kremlin, by the way?)

[Watt-Zeefuik]

3 hours ago, jake said:

Russia bad 

Massive troop movement to eastern Europe

Russia bad 

Massve troop deployment to Ukraine

 

 

Massive troop deployment by proxy to Syria

Russia bad

 

13 facebook trolls 

Russia bad

 

Etc etc etc

 

 

 

 

If you haven't been following the Cambridge Analytica story, there's some juicy stuff from multiple news sources right now.

 

Russia does not come off looking the worst in all of this (that honor can be left to CA itself as well as Facebook) but their fingerprints are quite evident there.

 

And while you're at it do recall that the current US administration has been bending over backwards to say that Russia is not in fact bad and should in fact be a friendly partner.