Poisoned Russian spy.

[XB52]

17 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Sorry, that doesn’t answer the question.

 

Did Saddam have Chemical Weapons which, for the avoidance of doubt, are WMDs?

Not when we invaded, no

[Norm]

Nuke the Russian *******s. Poisoning folk is one thing but I've had enough of this shitty Siberian weather they keep sending over. 

[jumpship]

11 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Not when we invaded, no

But we knew he had them because Westminster sold it to him... 

 

The UK arm sales don't just sell tanks and guns... 

 

Truth is the UK is a horrible country that sells horrible sh@t to horrible people. 

[Victorian]

43 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

As I've said, for some folks especially nowadays, if the entire story chapter & verse isn't plastered all over facebook or twitter then there's something not right about it and it's all a conspiracy.

 

What I've not heard anybody explain is this.

If Russia isn't involved and the UK has made all of this up, then what could the UK possibly gain by blaming Russia for it?

Surely the UK would have known that a huge and potentially dangerous political and diplomatic shit-storm would erupt following it, which could have far reaching effects on the UK, from energy to trade to security, all of which could be affected, so why bring all this grief upon ourselves by blaming Russia if it weren't them who did it.

Agreed.   This is an example of the analytical thought absent in foiltown.     The place where a grave security/intelligence/diplomatic infraction and subsequent reaction is berserkly compared to the criminal trial of an individual or individuals.     

Edited March 17, 2018 by Victorian

[southcap]

17 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Agreed.   This is an example of the analytical thought absent in foiltown.     The place where a grave security/intelligence/diplomatic infraction and subsequent reaction is berserkly compared to the criminal trial of an individual or individuals.     

The thing with the tinfoil brigade is they don't come from a position of facts on the subject, they come from a position of feeling intellectually superior to everyone else and feel the need to prove it at all costs. They are driven by their egos and nothing else.

 

It's no coincidence that the same people latch onto any possible conspiracy, regardless of the topic. The tinfoil brigade either have the largest and broadest interest on so many different topics or, as is the answer, all they care about is the chance to look intellectually superior.

 

Lets flip 9/11. The official story is the government done it despite evidence to the contrary. Would the tinfoil brigade agree, because that is their version of events, or would they be all over the 'islamists hijacking a plane theory'?

 

They'd chose the latter every time.

 

There's no point arguing with them, all the facts, logic and reasoning wont change their mind as that's not the position they are coming from. They are purely driven to prove everyone wrong and to appear smarter and more 'aware' than everyone else.

 

Ego, driven by a complete lack of self esteem, is my take on them. 

[AlphonseCapone]

38 minutes ago, southcap said:

The thing with the tinfoil brigade is they don't come from a position of facts on the subject, they come from a position of feeling intellectually superior to everyone else and feel the need to prove it at all costs. They are driven by their egos and nothing else.

 

It's no coincidence that the same people latch onto any possible conspiracy, regardless of the topic. The tinfoil brigade either have the largest and broadest interest on so many different topics or, as is the answer, all they care about is the chance to look intellectually superior.

 

Lets flip 9/11. The official story is the government done it despite evidence to the contrary. Would the tinfoil brigade agree, because that is their version of events, or would they be all over the 'islamists hijacking a plane theory'?

 

They'd chose the latter every time.

 

There's no point arguing with them, all the facts, logic and reasoning wont change their mind as that's not the position they are coming from. They are purely driven to prove everyone wrong and to appear smarter and more 'aware' than everyone else.

 

Ego, driven by a complete lack of self esteem, is my take on them. 

I

[deesidejambo]

The daftie in here  who says because it isn’t proven it’s Russian involvement means it must have been Americans or Brits is an example of the daft logic.

 

Sandy Hook anyone?

[Norm]

1 hour ago, deesidejambo said:

The daftie in here  who says because it isn’t proven it’s Russian involvement means it must have been Americans or Brits is an example of the daft logic.

 

Sandy Hook anyone?

You've taken that too far. No danger did Sandy poison the guy. He's a good lad is our Sandy. 

Edited March 17, 2018 by Normthebarman

[Geoff the Mince]

3 hours ago, jumpship said:

But we knew he had them because Westminster sold it to him... 

 

The UK arm sales don't just sell tanks and guns... 

 

Truth is the UK is a horrible country that sells horrible sh@t to horrible people. 

You might as well class most of Western Europe as horrible then . 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

27 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

You might as well class most of Western Europe as horrible then . 

 

Not just Western Europe but Eastern Europe as well, and Africa & Asia & the Americas.

[AlphonseCapone]

2 hours ago, deesidejambo said:

The daftie in here  who says because it isn’t proven it’s Russian involvement means it must have been Americans or Brits is an example of the daft logic.

 

Sandy Hook anyone?

 

They are very similar to religious people. Their view and arguments don't need evidence, it's up to everyone else to disprove it no matter how ridiculous the premise is. 

 

There's sceptical and then there's downright stupid. Most conspiracy theorists are the latter.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 hours ago, southcap said:

The thing with the tinfoil brigade is they don't come from a position of facts on the subject, they come from a position of feeling intellectually superior to everyone else and feel the need to prove it at all costs. They are driven by their egos and nothing else.

 

It's no coincidence that the same people latch onto any possible conspiracy, regardless of the topic. The tinfoil brigade either have the largest and broadest interest on so many different topics or, as is the answer, all they care about is the chance to look intellectually superior.

 

Lets flip 9/11. The official story is the government done it despite evidence to the contrary. Would the tinfoil brigade agree, because that is their version of events, or would they be all over the 'islamists hijacking a plane theory'?

 

They'd chose the latter every time.

 

There's no point arguing with them, all the facts, logic and reasoning wont change their mind as that's not the position they are coming from. They are purely driven to prove everyone wrong and to appear smarter and more 'aware' than everyone else.

 

Ego, driven by a complete lack of self esteem, is my take on them. 

 

 

As is often the case, far from looking superior & smarter than everyone else, it's the exact opposite that they often end up looking.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

25 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

They are very similar to religious people. Their view and arguments don't need evidence, it's up to everyone else to disprove it no matter how ridiculous the premise is. 

 

There's sceptical and then there's downright stupid. Most conspiracy theorists are the latter.

 

Exactly, it doesn't matter how many facts you present to them, in their minds it's only their version of events that is the truth everything else is fake news.

 

[felix]

38 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Exactly, it doesn't matter how many facts you present to them, in their minds it's only their version of events that is the truth everything else is fake news.

 

The only facts in this story so far, seem to be a nerve agent was used in an attempted assassination, placing other lives at risk.

What other facts are out there ?

[superjack]

2 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Not just Western Europe but Eastern Europe as well, and Africa & Asia & the Americas.

You missed out Australia and Antarctica. Those buggers from Antarctica are the worst out the lot.

[jumpship]

3 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

You might as well class most of Western Europe as horrible then . 

That's awesome. That makes me feel better.. 

 

Pretty sure I read the UK was the 2nd biggest arms sellers in the world,  but if you can live with whataboutery...

 

life good. 

[Geoff the Mince]

4 minutes ago, jumpship said:

That's awesome. That makes me feel better.. 

 

Pretty sure I read the UK was the 2nd biggest arms sellers in the world,  but if you can live with whataboutery...

 

life good. 

I don't know why your getting yer knickers in a twist . 

 

Unless you are a rabid Nationalist . 

[jumpship]

Just now, Geoff the Mince said:

I don't know why your getting yer knickers in a twist . 

 

Unless you are a rabid Nationalist . 

What have I said wrong buddy? 

 

These are well known facts... 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, felix said:

The only facts in this story so far, seem to be a nerve agent was used in an attempted assassination, placing other lives at risk.

What other facts are out there ?

 

It was a generalisation about presenting facts to the tinfoil hat brigade, and not in particular to this case.

 

But seeing as you ask about what other facts are out there.

As well as the one you mention.

There is the fact that this nerve agent was developed in the U.S.S.R. during the 70's & 80's.

Another fact is that the 'Novichok' class of nerve agents were never declared to the OPCW.

And another being that one of the plants which made this nerve agent was in Kazakhstan and was decommissioned by the American's in around about 1992-93 which I think was when this Illegal and undeclared nerve agent was first discovered and became known to the West.

 

[Geoff the Mince]

7 minutes ago, jumpship said:

What have I said wrong buddy? 

 

These are well known facts... 

Calling the UK a horrible country 

 

apart from that I agree with you .

[felix]

6 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It was a generalisation about presenting facts to the tinfoil hat brigade, and not in particular to this case.

 

But seeing as you ask about what other facts are out there.

As well as the one you mention.

There is the fact that this nerve agent was developed in the U.S.S.R. during the 70's & 80's.

Another fact is that the 'Novichok' class of nerve agents were never declared to the OPCW.

And another being that one of the plants which made this nerve agent was in Kazakhstan and was decommissioned by the American's in around about 1992-93 which I think was when this Illegal and undeclared nerve agent was first discovered and became known to the West.

 

Fair enough. But none of the known facts in this case, warrant the response we've taken, nor prove who was responsible .

Nevertheless,  we've waded in .

Asking why, or suggesting caution -  doesn't mean a tinfoil hat . Apologies if that's not what you were suggesting - haven't read all 9 pages.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

20 minutes ago, felix said:

Fair enough. But none of the known facts in this case, warrant the response we've taken, nor prove who was responsible .

Nevertheless,  we've waded in .

Asking why, or suggesting caution -  doesn't mean a tinfoil hat . Apologies if that's not what you were suggesting - haven't read all 9 pages.

 

None of the known published facts? 

What information/fact/proof is classified and well above all of our security clearance you can only speculate about.

But Merkel, Macron, Trump, Stoltenberg (NATO), the Italians & Sturgeon seem happy enough with the information they have seen/been told and agree with the UK that it was the Russians.

Edited March 17, 2018 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Thunderstruck]

7 hours ago, jumpship said:

But we knew he had them because Westminster sold it to him... 

 

The UK arm sales don't just sell tanks and guns... 

 

Truth is the UK is a horrible country that sells horrible sh@t to horrible people. 

 

We know he had them because 30 years ago yesterday, he and his buddy Chemical Ali let them be used on a town called Halabja. Sarin, VX and Mustard Gas were all used and all supplied to him by his sponsors - the USSR. 

 

This doesn’t excuse Bush and Blair for grasping at a pretext to invade Iraq (at least when they did) but the whole fuss around that issue leaves one unanswered question - where did the residue of Saddam’s arsenal go? Syria, Libya or ????

[felix]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

None of the known published facts? 

What information/fact/proof is classified and well above all of our security clearance you can only speculate about.

But Merkel, Macron, Trump, Stoltenberg (NATO), the Italians & Sturgeon seem happy enough with the information they have seen/been told and agree with the UK that it was the Russians.

 Stoltenberg ; Trump etc are happy to wade in to Russia, not on the basis of de-classified facts (which I'll wager, currently don't exist)  about a poisoning in Salisbury , but because of other reasons, such as Ukraine.

Stoltenberg has said as much.

However if Nicola's happy it's the Ruskies - that's good enough for me

 

[yabadabadoo1874again]

2 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

I don't know why your getting yer knickers in a twist . 

 

Unless you are a rabid Nationalist . 

 

Rabid BritNats...you gotta love em... !!! ???

[Geoff the Mince]

1 hour ago, yabadabadoo1874again said:

 

Rabid BritNats...you gotta love em... !!! ???

I'm certainly no BritNat

 

This whole identidy politics is tiresome  .

[Fly the Saltire]

1 hour ago, Geoff the Mince said:

I'm certainly no BritNat

 

This whole identidy politics is tiresome  .

 

So I assume that there should be no nations and a world order controlled by whom?

[yabadabadoo1874again]

2 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

I'm certainly no BritNat

 

This whole identidy politics is tiresome  .

 

Your personal battle with truth is going well...

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

4 hours ago, felix said:

 Stoltenberg ; Trump etc are happy to wade in to Russia, not on the basis of de-classified facts (which I'll wager, currently don't exist)  about a poisoning in Salisbury , but because of other reasons, such as Ukraine.

Stoltenberg has said as much.

However if Nicola's happy it's the Ruskies - that's good enough for me

 

 

Sturgeon came out and backed Theresa May after they had had a 'Brexit' meeting at number 10 on Wednesday past.

Obviously I do not know what Sturgeon was briefed with, but I can only assume it was classified material, and after which Sturgeon publicly agreed with the PM and blamed Russia, which to be honest is saying something considering they are polar opposites politically, so I can only conclude whatever Nicola Sturgeon saw or heard convinced her of Russia's involvement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43405126

 

[felix]

23 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Sturgeon came out and backed Theresa May after they had had a 'Brexit' meeting at number 10 on Wednesday past.

Obviously I do not know what Sturgeon was briefed with, but I can only assume it was classified material, and after which Sturgeon publicly agreed with the PM and blamed Russia, which to be honest is saying something considering they are polar opposites politically, so I can only conclude whatever Nicola Sturgeon saw or heard convinced her of Russia's involvement.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-43405126

 

So still no  factual evidence on who did this then !?

 

[Space Mackerel]

7 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

It was a generalisation about presenting facts to the tinfoil hat brigade, and not in particular to this case.

 

But seeing as you ask about what other facts are out there.

As well as the one you mention.

There is the fact that this nerve agent was developed in the U.S.S.R. during the 70's & 80's.

Another fact is that the 'Novichok' class of nerve agents were never declared to the OPCW.

And another being that one of the plants which made this nerve agent was in Kazakhstan and was decommissioned by the American's in around about 1992-93 which I think was when this Illegal and undeclared nerve agent was first discovered and became known to the West.

 

 

I think the “tin foil hat” posters on here have a much greater knowledge of what’s going on geo politically in the world, and, how/why the media in either country say things to manipulate public opinion for the states involved. 

 

“Tin foil hat” posters also watch the MSM and get other information from other just as “credible” outlets. 

[Space Mackerel]

15 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

 

 

What I've not heard anybody explain is this.

If Russia isn't involved and the UK has made all of this up, then what could the UK possibly gain by blaming Russia for it?

 

 

1. Tusk gave a statement just before this, no trade talks on Brexit until the Irish Border was settled, period. Takes the heat off May in the press. More breathing space , the Tory Party are on the verge of a massive split any time now. 

2. Tory vote in latest opinion polls put them at 37%, Labour 43%. Huge anti Corbyn over this on tv and papers in full swing clearly, even though he’s not in power, funnily enough. 

3. The West are losing the war in Syria as things stands, Russia and the Syrian army have the upper hand. This puts more international pressure on them. 

4.Trump can back the UK to show that he’s not on the payroll of the Russians or whatever’s claimed these days, takes a slightly stronger anti Russian stance. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 hours ago, felix said:

So still no  factual evidence on who did this then !?

 

 

Unless you were at the meeting between May & Sturgeon then you can't say that, you have no idea what information was revealed to Sturgeon.

Just because it's not been plastered all over the internet doesn't mean there is nothing.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

7 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

1. Tusk gave a statement just before this, no trade talks on Brexit until the Irish Border was settled, period. Takes the heat off May in the press. More breathing space , the Tory Party are on the verge of a massive split any time now. 

2. Tory vote in latest opinion polls put them at 37%, Labour 43%. Huge anti Corbyn over this on tv and papers in full swing clearly, even though he’s not in power, funnily enough. 

3. The West are losing the war in Syria as things stands, Russia and the Syrian army have the upper hand. This puts more international pressure on them. 

4.Trump can back the UK to show that he’s not on the payroll of the Russians or whatever’s claimed these days, takes a slightly stronger anti Russian stance. 

 

Are you saying that it was the Tories who ordered or carried out this attack because they're behind in the polls and it would buy them 'More breathing space' over Brexit. 

 

I think some people, including you are letting their political bias and hatred for the Tories cloud their rational.

 

[Victorian]

54 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Unless you were at the meeting between May & Sturgeon then you can't say that, you have no idea what information was revealed to Sturgeon.

Just because it's not been plastered all over the internet doesn't mean there is nothing.

Why even bother?      They're idiots.      

[southcap]

Can anyone point me to any factual evidence that Luke Mitchell killed Jodie Jones? No? How did he get convicted then? Ah, circumstantial evidence. 

 

You don't need a smoking gun when the evidence says the suspect owned the gun, was in the area of the crime when it happened, had motive to commit the crime and has no alibi. 

 

Can anyone show any evidence that someone else other than the Russian's committed it? I await it. 

 

I'm getting flashbacks of John Brown shouting 'show us the deeds' here.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

17 minutes ago, Victorian said:

Why even bother?      They're idiots.      

 

I know, it does get tiresome at times and I need to try harder and not bite.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

14 minutes ago, southcap said:

Can anyone point me to any factual evidence that Luke Mitchell killed Jodie Jones? No? How did he get convicted then? Ah, circumstantial evidence. 

 

You don't need a smoking gun when the evidence says the suspect owned the gun, was in the area of the crime when it happened, had motive to commit the crime and has no alibi. 

 

Can anyone show any evidence that someone else other than the Russian's committed it? I await it. 

 

I'm getting flashbacks of John Brown shouting 'show us the deeds' here.

 

Don't you know it was the Tories who did it.

And the reason, because they're trialling Labour in the polls.    

[felix]

9 minutes ago, southcap said:

Can anyone point me to any factual evidence that Luke Mitchell killed Jodie Jones? No? How did he get convicted then? Ah, circumstantial evidence. 

 

 

So ok to go on circumstantial evidence and engage in some sabre rattling with a nuclear-weapon state   ?

[southcap]

1 minute ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Don't you know it was the Tories who did it.

And the reason, because they're trialling Labour in the polls.    

The amusing thing is, I'm a card carrying anti Brit, anti-tory, borderline-commie Scottish nationalist.

 

And here I am, defending the Tories and the British government.

 

Some things are bigger than internal politics.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Just now, felix said:

So ok to go on circumstantial evidence and engage in some sabre rattling with a nuclear-weapon state   ?

 

The UK is also a nuclear weapon state.

 

[southcap]

4 minutes ago, felix said:

So ok to go on circumstantial evidence and engage in some sabre rattling with a nuclear-weapon state   ?

The public information is circumstantial.

 

Nuclear war isn't remotely on the table yet so simmer down with that pish.

 

[southcap]

2 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The UK is also a nuclear weapon state.

 

The contradictions are amusing.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Just now, southcap said:

The amusing thing is, I'm a card carrying anti Brit, anti-tory, borderline-commie Scottish nationalist.

 

And here I am, defending the Tories and the British government.

 

Some things are bigger than internal politics.

 

I'm no lover of the Tories either, however as you say something's are bigger than politics, and there are several posts on here, where you can see a clear anti-Tory bias in their reasoning why they think Russia isn't to blame over this.

 

Boris Johnston has now claimed that the UK has evidence which shows that Russia has been making and stockpiling the Novichok nerve agent, bold claim and very very serious claim as well. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/18/russia-response-to-ex-spy-poisoning-row-futile-says-boris-johnson

 

[felix]

28 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The UK is also a nuclear weapon state.

 

Really !!?

 

26 minutes ago, southcap said:

The public information is circumstantial.

Nuclear war isn't remotely on the table yet so simmer down with that pish.

 

 Russia's already warned this event's getting "dangerously out of proportion". 

Don't suppose it will lead to nuclear war - but interesting to see how events in Syria unfold.

 

18 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Boris Johnston has now claimed that the UK has evidence which shows that Russia has been making and stockpiling the Novichok nerve agent, bold claim and very very serious claim as well. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/18/russia-response-to-ex-spy-poisoning-row-futile-says-boris-johnson

Proving nothing - even if true - and contrary to the view of the Organisation for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons who've no such records. - and are due to assess on Monday.

Interesting to hear their view. 

Be more pertinent for Boris to find out exactly who applied the nerve agent ; where;  and why; and while he's at it - explain how the PC got caught up.

Answers to these questions may already be know , but haven't been reported as far as I can see.

[southcap]

4 minutes ago, felix said:

Really !!?

 

 Russia's already warned this event's getting "dangerously out of proportion". 

Don't suppose it will lead to nuclear war - but interesting to see how events in Syria unfold.

 

Proving nothing - even if true - and contrary to the view of the Organisation for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons who've no such records. - and are due to assess on Monday.

Interesting to hear their view. 

Be more pertinent for Boris to find out exactly who applied the nerve agent ; where;  and why; and while he's at it - explain how the PC got caught up.

Answers to these questions may already be know , but haven't been reported as far as I can see.

If you wish to go down to the route of quoting Russians, shall I quote Putin's threat to the spies that were exchanged?

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Don't you know it was the Tories who did it.

And the reason, because they're trialling Labour in the polls.    

They might be bungling idiots but even they wouldn't do that 

[jake]

As the evidence of Russia and it's involvement in the US elections implodes isn't it convenient that this story surfaces.

And I dare say Russian skills at assassination could have used things commonly obtained from a chemist.

Or substances that are not detectable.

But of course no.

They chose a poison that they would be associated with .

Interesting the company the victim had been keeping lately.

Edited March 18, 2018 by jake

[AlphonseCapone]

11 hours ago, felix said:

So still no  factual evidence on who did this then !?

 

 

I don't know if you are intentionally playing dense but a random member of the public on JKB not having factual evidence isn't proof it doesn't exist.

 

It's good to be skeptical but only to the point it makes sense. Simply repeatedly asking evidence to be in the public domain after a nuclear power has been attacked using a banned nerve agent by another nuclear power is just downright stupid. Never going to happen, get over it. 

 

There's a lot of people and nations who will be privy to the evidence that have backed the UK versus foamers on the internet who think they're being all alternative by questioning the man all the time. Who to side with I wonder. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

31 minutes ago, felix said:

Really !!?

 

 Russia's already warned this event's getting "dangerously out of proportion". 

Don't suppose it will lead to nuclear war - but interesting to see how events in Syria unfold.

 

Proving nothing - even if true - and contrary to the view of the Organisation for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons who've no such records. - and are due to assess on Monday.

Interesting to hear their view. 

Be more pertinent for Boris to find out exactly who applied the nerve agent ; where;  and why; and while he's at it - explain how the PC got caught up.

Answers to these questions may already be know , but haven't been reported as far as I can see.

 

Last time I looked the UK has nuclear weapons, that makes us a nuclear power.

 

And once again, many things will be known but have not been reported and plastered all over the internet and probably never will be either, you'll just have to accept that you'll not be able to read chapter & verse about this anytime soon.