Goncalves - some Hearts fans in racist abuse claims

[Peebo]

6 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

I was referring to the article in the EEN where Goncalves alleges his wife and family could no longer attend games because of racist abuse directed at him. That he says he never heard either. And I still don't know what was said. 

I guessed you were referring to that, since it’s the subject of the thread. Isma is quoted as refering to multiple comments being made over multiple games. His source is his family.

 

I’ve heard him being racially abused once. My source is my own ears. I’ve no idea if what I heard was one of the comments that he was refering to. That why I said I didn’t know which particular “incident” you were refering to in your previous post. 

[Peebo]

2 minutes ago, GorgieRules22 said:

This will just keep dragging on.

 

Lets just draw a line in the sand here.

 

Racism is wrong but there is no doubt that the Isma allegations have been fabricated to an extent. His brother stated that we didn't celebrate a goal because he scored it and so on, complete rubbish.

 

Lets move on, big game tommorow!!

Or accept what he has said, take it at face value from his and his family’s perspective and move on. 

 

And for the record, on your point that he said “we didn’t celebrate a goal because he scored it”, here’s what he actually said (per the quotes):

 

”My brother told me that he felt one time after I’d scored, some fans were not happy because it was me that scored.”

 

[Ray Gin]

For any Hibs fans looking in and thinking they can take the moral high ground:

 

Bolt. You have problems of your own. File this along with your Kingston "Looky looky man" and Skacel "****ing refugee" chants, which thousands were singing merrily along with, not a select few token arseholes shouting offensive slurs.

 

 

[GorgieRules22]

17 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Or accept what he has said, take it at face value from his and his family’s perspective and move on. 

 

And for the record, on your point that he said “we didn’t celebrate a goal because he scored it”, here’s what he actually said (per the quotes):

 

”My brother told me that he felt one time after I’d scored, some fans were not happy because it was me that scored.”

 

Which is a complete pile of shite but you carry on believing that part ?

[William H. Bonney]

Is it just me or does anyone else think it was i8 who shouted the abuse at isma. 

[socrates82]

1 minute ago, GorgieRules22 said:

Which is a complete pile of shite but you carry on believing that part ?

 

Why? Another example of fans targeting specific players who can't do anything right in their eyes that sticks out for me was Bauben against Infonet at Tynecastle. This guy and his son (I assume) sat next to me moaned about Bauben from the moment his name was announced and they certainly didn't celebrate his penalty. I remember Webster back at Hearts some guy running to the front of the Gorgie stand to abuse him every two minutes in a game that I think we won. Wonder if he was still abusing him when he helped us win the cup.

[Peebo]

6 minutes ago, GorgieRules22 said:

Which is a complete pile of shite but you carry on believing that part ?

Believe what? That he brother felt like that? Why would I doubt that he felt it? 

 

I couldn't give a **** how Isma’s brother feels in terms of how happy he thinks some fans are. I have, however, seen plenty of reactions from arseholes in our support to suggest they’ve been ****ed off when one of our players who they’ve been abusing all game has done something decent. I only have to go back a week or two to think of a recent example involving Djoum!

 

My point here is that Isma reporting how his brother felt is not fabrication. 

[GorgieRules22]

4 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Believe what? That he brother felt like that? Why would I doubt that he felt it? 

 

I couldn't give a **** how Isma’s brother feels in terms of how happy he thinks some fans are. I have, however, seen plenty of reactions from arseholes in our support to suggest they’ve been ****ed off when one of our players who they’ve been abusing all game has done something decent. I only have to go back a week or two to think of a recent example involving Djoum!

 

My point here is that Isma reporting how his brother felt is not fabrication. 

Right so yous have battered on about it now for a few days and we all agree Racism is wrong. I think the story is fabricated that's just my point. Wethere you agree or not I couldn't give a toss.

[Peebo]

2 minutes ago, GorgieRules22 said:

Right so yous have battered on about it now for a few days and we all agree Racism is wrong. I think the story is fabricated that's just my point. Wethere you agree or not I couldn't give a toss.

Great. Good for you. 

[GorgieRules22]

Just now, Peebo said:

Great. Good for you. 

Cheers ?

[Bazzas right boot]

This thread is becoming more embarrassing than the actual incident.

 

Isma is lying.

The folk that said they have heard stuff are lying

It never happened.

 

 

 

 

[Coburg Hearts]

28 minutes ago, Jefferson Davis Hogg said:

Is it just me or does anyone else think it was i8 who shouted the abuse at isma. 

No.

edit. I don't think i8 shouted abuse at Isma. (in case of confusion)

[redm]

5 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Dave I have explicitly said throughout this thread that there should be at least a private inquiry.  Someone has made an accusation so it deserves that.  It, at no point should be taken at face value.  Is Mrs Goncalves some divine being? It should be looked at impartially and be taken seriously.  For some utterly bizarre reason people are demanding we take it as fact and start the criminal proceedings.  Seriously, in what way is this fair?  The likelihood is that it can't be proven or disproved as it is in the past and there is no real concrete way of knowing. We can tighten up our vigilance going forward. My, however many posts on this thread are just me vehemently against taking one person's word - it is utterly ridiculous and unfair to do that.  This whole why would she make it up angers me immensely.  Race cards are falsely played all the time -  that angers me just as much as the racist *****! Seriously. 

 

 

 

“Race cards are falsely played all the time”

Are they? Care to offer some sort of evidence to back up this assertion?

[Spencer]

7 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

This thread is becoming more embarrassing than the actual incident.

 

Isma is lying.

The folk that said they have heard stuff are lying

It never happened.

 

 

 

 

It's an absolutely horrific thread. Sadly that should surprise nobody 

[OTT]

58 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

I am not choosing to be skeptical, that's just the position I find myself in due to a lack of evidence. And just to clarify, I'm talking specifically about the allegations in the EEN from his family that the abuse was so bad, they could no longer attend matches. 

 

I agree with you. There is a complete lack of evidence and if this wasn't racism I think people would be a damn sight more skeptical. I am not happy he has essentially dropped a grenade and walked off by publicly doing this (FWIW I do think on balance it probably did happen, but he's used it as a last '**** you' to the club rather than anything else IMO). 

 

However, regardless of the merits of the accusation it has highlighted a need to have a way of reporting this type of abuse to the club for the players. Simply paying for a ticket does not entitle any fan to racially abuse a player. 

 

Hopefully Budge can implement a structure which players feel comfortable using to report racist incidents so that the club can deal with it appropriately.

[Peebo]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I agree with you. There is a complete lack of evidence and if this wasn't racism I think people would be a damn sight more skeptical. I am not happy he has essentially dropped a grenade and walked off by publicly doing this (FWIW I do think on balance it probably did happen, but he's used it as a last '**** you' to the club rather than anything else IMO). 

 

However, regardless of the merits of the accusation it has highlighted a need to have a way of reporting this type of abuse to the club for the players. Simply paying for a ticket does not entitle any fan to racially abuse a player. 

 

Hopefully Budge can implement a structure which players feel comfortable using to report racist incidents so that the club can deal with it appropriately.

If you believe there is a complete lack of evidence, why do you think it probably did happen? 

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, Spencer said:

It's an absolutely horrific thread. Sadly that should surprise nobody 

 

yip

 

[feedthefox]

On 14/02/2018 at 23:47, Lambo85 said:

 

An undertone which felt uncomfortable. Care to elaborate on that?

Your not suggesting that people on here who accused him of being lazy, overweight and a very frustrating player to watch are racist are you? 

 

Also so why not report the racist abuse to the club if you have head it with your own ears?

 

Sorry Lambo not wishing to duck your valid questions but I’m abroad on holiday so time on kB is limited that said. 

 

I sit in the new stand section R and the other st holders around me are all pretty decent and despite some grumblings I’ve not heard anything remotely racist. However when we played Hibs in cup my tickets were elsewhere in new stand. There was a woman behind me (about 50) who was apoplectic with Isma throughout the whole game. Every time it was “ Levein get that fat useless lazy ******* off”.  I was just waiting for her to throw in the “black” word but somehow she managed not to..Her agression towards him was very uncomfortable and just beacause she didn’t actually use any expressive racist terms it still had a very uncomfortable undertone. 

 

Actuall racist abuse I heard twice at away games. Pretty much the above but this time with “black”  in the mix. No idea who these horrible people were and have not seen them again. I take my two young kids so I’m afraid it simply isn’t realistic that I could   take direct action or provide any worthwhile evidence by way of reporting. Better I point out to my kids that this iunfortunately exists and has no place in their lives. 

 

 

[ollie2004]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

 

I was referring to the article in the EEN where Goncalves alleges his wife and family could no longer attend games because of racist abuse directed at him. That he says he never heard either. And I still don't know what was said. 

I started a thread on this issue about the EEN article which has been included in this thread.

If I recsll correctly I was asking the same but was shouted down by Ismaparty and a few others.

Ismaparty like a number of others claim to have heard the racist abuse but did nothing.

I appreciate that to call the culprits out could cause hassle but surely a quick picture on a mobile phone and seat reference could be given to the club and let them handle it.

I am sceptical about the police or stewards doing anything so perhaps fans need to step up.

I have not heard any racist comments directed towards Isma or any other Hearts player but many claim to have heard such.

The club seem to have accepted it happened!

I wonder how CL's chat with Isma went and whether there are more revelations to follow!

 

[JamboSpur]

Ian Black

[Peebo]

Just now, ollie2004 said:

I started a thread on this issue about the EEN article which has been included in this thread.

If I recsll correctly I was asking the same but was shouted down by Ismaparty and a few others.

Ismaparty like a number of others claim to have heard the racist abuse but did nothing.

I appreciate that to call the culprits out could cause hassle but surely a quick picture on a mobile phone and seat reference could be given to the club and let them handle it.

I am sceptical about the police or stewards doing anything so perhaps fans need to step up.

I have not heard any racist comments directed towards Isma or any other Hearts player but many claim to have heard such.

The club seem to have accepted it happened!

I wonder how CL's chat with Isma went and whether there are more revelations to follow!

 

It’s possible to hear comments without knowing who made them. 

 

And not reporting something to the club doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

32 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

This thread is becoming more embarrassing than the actual incident.

 

Isma is lying.

The folk that said they have heard stuff are lying

It never happened.

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody has actually posted that. Some are simply not accepting something because it's been posted on here. 

 

11 minutes ago, feedthefox said:

 

Sorry Lambo not wishing to duck your valid questions but I’m abroad on holiday so time on kB is limited that said. 

 

I sit in the new stand section R and the other st holders around me are all pretty decent and despite some grumblings I’ve not heard anything remotely racist. However when we played Hibs in cup my tickets were elsewhere in new stand. There was a woman behind me (about 50) who was apoplectic with Isma throughout the whole game. Every time it was “ Levein get that fat useless lazy ******* off”.  I was just waiting for her to throw in the “black” word but somehow she managed not to..Her agression towards him was very uncomfortable and just beacause she didn’t actually use any expressive racist terms it still had a very uncomfortable undertone. 

 

Actuall racist abuse I heard twice at away games. Pretty much the above but this time with “black”  in the mix. No idea who these horrible people were and have not seen them again. I take my two young kids so I’m afraid it simply isn’t realistic that I could   take direct action or provide any worthwhile evidence by way of reporting. Better I point out to my kids that this iunfortunately exists and has no place in their lives. 

 

 

 

So, said woman didn't once use any racist term at all but you felt it  had an uncomfortable tone? If you were waiting on her to say 'black' it perhaps says more about you that you like. 

[Dazzle]

7 minutes ago, ollie2004 said:

I started a thread on this issue about the EEN article which has been included in this thread.

If I recsll correctly I was asking the same but was shouted down by Ismaparty and a few others.

Ismaparty like a number of others claim to have heard the racist abuse but did nothing.

I appreciate that to call the culprits out could cause hassle but surely a quick picture on a mobile phone and seat reference could be given to the club and let them handle it.

I am sceptical about the police or stewards doing anything so perhaps fans need to step up.

I have not heard any racist comments directed towards Isma or any other Hearts player but many claim to have heard such.

The club seem to have accepted it happened!

I wonder how CL's chat with Isma went and whether there are more revelations to follow!

 

 

Indeed, it seems odd that racist abuse was sustained over a number of games and nothing was done about it. It's possible I suppose but I remain skeptical. 

[Notts1874]

Just back from the pub.....Folk still in denial i see.....Anyway I'm about to order a pizza......what do you all want?

[ollie2004]

13 minutes ago, Peebo said:

It’s possible to hear comments without knowing who made them. 

 

And not reporting something to the club doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 

I agree mate. My point is that many seem to have heard such comments but for whatever reason have not done anything.

The club and supporters need to try and sort out some way of communicating such concerns.

Otherwise the media will happily class all Hearts fans as racist IMO.

[Fxxx the SPFL]

20 minutes ago, Notts1874 said:

Just back from the pub.....Folk still in denial i see.....Anyway I'm about to order a pizza......what do you all want?

Kebab meat with chips and chilli sauce 

[Spencer]

47 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

yip

 

Awful

 

Slight aside and I'm terribly sorry to go off topic - just watched Steve McLaren on the Sky Sports Debate Show with Craig Bellamy 

 

Very interesting to listen to McLaren's views. Particularly on young players and the likelihood of more British young players moving to Europe in the next 5 or so years 

 

Sorry to digress - not as interesting talking about racists morons I appreciate 

[BackOfTheNet]

2 hours ago, GorgieRules22 said:

This will just keep dragging on.

 

Lets just draw a line in the sand here.

 

Racism is wrong but there is no doubt that the Isma allegations have been fabricated to an extent. His brother stated that we didn't celebrate a goal because he scored it and so on, complete rubbish.

 

Lets move on, big game tommorow!!

 

There were a group of three that saw behind me on two separate occasions (once at Murrayfield, the other at Tynecastle) that sat with arms folded when he scored screamers. Spent the whole game giving him pelters. Said the same in the Isma transfer thread, suggested there may be more to their hatred than they were letting on and got pelters for it. Whether they were racist or not I don’t know, but they certainly didn’t celebrate when he scored and actually even looked angry at the fact. So this I assure you is not rubbish as I’ve witnessed it myself.

[Ray Gin]

Just lock this thread. Going round and round in circles.

[fila]

18 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

Just lock this thread. Going round and round in circles.

 

This could still be going same time next week, with the same posts and views being spouted .

 

I am sure he was subjected to abuse , or very much doubt he would say it . Unfortunately like most clubs we have a certain element of support that continue to act as if it was still  the 80"s  , when sectarianism  and racist abuse was almost commonplace in the wider society. I have have posted on a few occasions , that there has been a huge step change from then to now at the football, apart from the OF  , however IMO we are still a few generations away from eradicating the problem fully ( if that is actually possible).

 

It is a real tragedy , that he did not raise whilst at the club, to allow us to tackle the problem when he was still playing . 

 

All that side, I am extremely pleased he is away from Hearts, as he was pretty mince !! 

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

2 minutes ago, fila said:

 

This could still be going same time next week, with the same posts and views being spouted .

 

I am sure he was subjected to abuse , or very much doubt he would say it . Unfortunately like most clubs we have a certain element of support that continue to act as if it was still  the 80"s  , when sectarianism  and racist abuse was almost commonplace in the wider society. I have have posted on a few occasions , that there has been a huge step change from then to now at the football, apart from the OF  , however IMO we are still a few generations away from eradicating the problem fully ( if that is actually possible).

 

It is a real tragedy , that he did raise whilst at the club, to allow us to tackle the problem when he was still playing . 

 

All that side, I am extremely pleased he is away from Hearts, as he was pretty mince !! 

[wavydavy]

6 hours ago, Peebo said:

What are you looking for?

Somebody who has an axe to grind and making comments about racial abuse without corroboration would not stand up in a Scottish Court because that is what our laws state.

 

Had he stated at the time that he or his family had heard these alleged comments and asked the club or the Police to do something about it then there is a case to answer.

 

He chose to say nothing to those who could have helped resolve this problem at the time but for whatever reason only he can answer he chose to contain the matter until he had left the club.

 

People can say or think what they like but from a point of law unless he has made a complaint to the Police then nothing more will come of it.

 

[wavydavy]

4 hours ago, Peebo said:

I have confirmed Isma has been the subject of racist abuse. Others have, too.

 

That evidence supports his allegation. You can find it by reading this thread.

I said a while back that I didn't fancy Craig Levein as our Coach!

[Unknown user]

This thread

[Peebo]

5 hours ago, wavydavy said:

Somebody who has an axe to grind and making comments about racial abuse without corroboration would not stand up in a Scottish Court because that is what our laws state.

 

Had he stated at the time that he or his family had heard these alleged comments and asked the club or the Police to do something about it then there is a case to answer.

 

He chose to say nothing to those who could have helped resolve this problem at the time but for whatever reason only he can answer he chose to contain the matter until he had left the club.

 

People can say or think what they like but from a point of law unless he has made a complaint to the Police then nothing more will come of it.

 

No one has taken, or suggested they will take, these allegations to the police. Not sure who is suggesting any more will come of it. There is no suggestion this will be escalated into being a legal matter. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 

 

Again, though, not sure if people banging on it this from the hypothetical legal angle understand what they are talking about. The comments about racial abuse have been corroborated. If you don’t believe what he says, or those saying they have heard him being racially abused, fair enough. But it’s simply bullshit to suggest there has been no corroboration. 

[Peebo]

5 hours ago, wavydavy said:

I said a while back that I didn't fancy Craig Levein as our Coach!

Very interesting. Absolutely **** all to do with anything here, though, and a really, really shite analogy in this context. 

[Independence]

10 hours ago, Perth to Paisley said:

There is racism.

There is sectarianism

There is homophobia

 

I believe the club should ask the media (written and tv) to help us highlight it at Tynecastle and every other ground Scotland .... and get all clubs to impose a zero tolerance approach.

Would be wonderful if we didn't have to tolerate any of it.

Hopefully the media exposure can drive change.

Correct and EVERY club in the UK is blighted by such a minority, unfortunately. However, our 2 Bigot Brothers in the west have a majority , a monopoly, in relation to sectarianism but the press hardly ever feature it.

 

[Independence]

6 hours ago, wavydavy said:

I said a while back that I didn't fancy Craig Levein as our Coach!

[Nookie Bear]

9 hours ago, redm said:

 

“Race cards are falsely played all the time”

Are they? Care to offer some sort of evidence to back up this assertion?

 

John Barnes complaining that he never got offered managerial roles because of his colour?

[jambocub]

1 minute ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

John Barnes complaining that he never got offered managerial roles because of his colour?

Im sure there was an Everton player that accused frimino of calling him a n***"r the other month as well. It happens

[Sherbet]

Guys near me gave isma plenty of abuse because of his ability or lack off, none of it was racist. I quite liked the guy, that he was ok and tried hard

[i8hibsh]

9 hours ago, redm said:

 

“Race cards are falsely played all the time”

Are they? Care to offer some sort of evidence to back up this assertion?

 

 

Oi, why not take my accusation at face value?

 

 

Am I the wrong sex, gender and colour?

 

 

 

[stotty]

11 hours ago, redm said:

 

“Race cards are falsely played all the time”

Are they? Care to offer some sort of evidence to back up this assertion?

I remember Larry Kingston falsely accusing a ref of racism not long into his Hearts career, if that counts? 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

3 minutes ago, stotty said:

I remember Larry Kingston falsely accusing a ref of racism not long into his Hearts career, if that counts? 

Yes and the referees wife was black iirc 

[Deevers]

3 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Yes and the referees wife was black iirc 

He made a real fool of himself with that.

[stotty]

3 minutes ago, Deevers said:

He made a real fool of himself with that.

Yep - was embarrassing. 

FWIW, I think Isma got a really tough time from the fans. He didn't appear to particularly like playing for Hearts. But I personally have never heard any racist abuse aimed at him. It also seems none of Craig Levein or Michael Smith's friends, families or acquaintances have heard any (going by their comments). So it was obviously fairly isolated (I presume players and staff's families sit near each other). And I don't think racism specifically  drove him out, he's moved to uzbekistan FFS! 

[Bazzas right boot]

8 hours ago, wavydavy said:

Somebody who has an axe to grind and making comments about racial abuse without corroboration would not stand up in a Scottish Court because that is what our laws state.

 

Had he stated at the time that he or his family had heard these alleged comments and asked the club or the Police to do something about it then there is a case to answer.

 

He chose to say nothing to those who could have helped resolve this problem at the time but for whatever reason only he can answer he chose to contain the matter until he had left the club.

 

People can say or think what they like but from a point of law unless he has made a complaint to the Police then nothing more will come of it.

 

 

Of course nothing will come of it if it's not reported to the police.

 

[Nookie Bear]

1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Oi, why not take my accusation at face value?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[wavydavy]

3 hours ago, Peebo said:

No one has taken, or suggested they will take, these allegations to the police. Not sure who is suggesting any more will come of it. There is no suggestion this will be escalated into being a legal matter. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. 

 

Again, though, not sure if people banging on it this from the hypothetical legal angle understand what they are talking about. The comments about racial abuse have been corroborated. If you don’t believe what he says, or those saying they have heard him being racially abused, fair enough. But it’s simply bullshit to suggest there has been no corroboration. 

 

Where did I suggest it didn't happen? Innocent until proven guilty so until someone is found guilty it is an allegation.

 

 

[wavydavy]

38 minutes ago, stotty said:

Yep - was embarrassing. 

FWIW, I think Isma got a really tough time from the fans. He didn't appear to particularly like playing for Hearts. But I personally have never heard any racist abuse aimed at him. It also seems none of Craig Levein or Michael Smith's friends, families or acquaintances have heard any (going by their comments). So it was obviously fairly isolated (I presume players and staff's families sit near each other). And I don't think racism specifically  drove him out, he's moved to uzbekistan FFS! 

 

I wonder if Djoum, Bauben etc have ever had any similar abuse thrown at them because lets face it they have been subjected to many threads on here about how bad they have been at various times during their stay with us.