Goncalves - some Hearts fans in racist abuse claims

[Dazzle]

18 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

Quickest court case every, the fact that the club has apologised although not a 100% sign of acceptance that it happened, it is   close to acknowledging that it was true.

 

If the club thought it was untrue it would be fighting as much as you are. They are not. Very telling.

 

 

 

Nonsense, what else is the club going to do but issue a statement ? The club have no idea whether it is true or not but the safe thing to do is issue a statement to placate the SJW. Not that they have been placated right enough. 

[Bazzas right boot]

Just now, Dazzle said:

Nonsense, what else is the club going to do but issue a statement ? The club have no idea whether it is true or not but the safe thing to do is issue a statement to placate the SJW. Not that they have been placated right enough. 

 

 

If the club thought it wasn't true, they would have made a point in saying so.

 

You may think different, but I think it happened ( more than enough evidence), time to fix it and make sure it doesn't happen again, not to imply he's making it up and it never happened.

 

Thankfully, The club feels the same way.

 

A rangers type defence statement would have been horrific.

[wavydavy]

11 minutes ago, Ray Gin said:

 

You haven't done much research have you?

 

Read the news linked in this thread and you'll know that he told six fellow team mates and that Levein has asked the squad and other players have also had issues.

 

Sorry if my research has not be thorough enough for you, I will endeavour to be more factually aware the next time. Although the article I read after you pointed this out and from which I quote below does not mention a number it just says he had spoken to some of the players. However the original article I read did not mention this.

 

This is a quote from an article yesterday by the EEN.

 

Hearts manager Craig Levein confessed to feeling “embarrassed” that Isma Goncalves did not feel able to speak to him about the racial abuse that played a part in his decision to leave the club in January.

 

My point about the other Black Players at the club was more linked to the journalist making no mention of finding out if similar abuse had happened to them.

[Peebo]

37 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

 

The defence would argue:

 

Do our racists really sit beside and in amongst Ann Budge and the players wives?  I see strong doubt there?

 

Strong doubt, indeed. Doubt as to why the question was asked. The players families have not typically been sitting in the same area as Budge, within the current set up in the new Main Stand.

 

At least one person sitting close to the area where the WAGS etc. do sit has racially abused Isma, for what it’s worth in your hypothetical court case. 

[Peebo]

48 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

I think the crux of the matter here is why did Isma not say anything about this to either his fellow team-mates or the Club?

 

It is clearly unacceptable that he and or his family have had to listen to any verbal abuse however it would have been nice for him to have given a reason why he never reported it before leaving the club.

The crux of the matter is the abuse he received, not his reaction to it. As Smith said, that’s “for him to deal with. People deal with things in different ways. If it has happened then he kept it under his hat and it’s up to him and his family to deal with it”.

 

As for the second bit, he did give a reason in the interview, albeit it vague, weak one. 

[Bazzas right boot]

 

6 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Strong doubt, indeed. Doubt as to why the question was asked. The players families have not typically been sitting in the same area as Budge, within the current set up in the new Main Stand.

 

At least one person sitting close to the area where the WAGS etc. do sit has racially abused Isma, for what it’s worth in your hypothetical court case. 

 

 

I can imagine the lawyers next question?

 

So where do you house all your racists then?

 

 

 

Hearts guy like

[super_vlad]

I8 Being is normal self here and still has not given one example of someone playing the race card. 

 

We get it that you & your friends don’t particularly like certain members of society, **** knows why you have to go out your way with this ridiculous carry

on. 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Ray Gin said:

 

The difference is that here there is no benefit to us lying and making it up, whereas for you it serves the purpose of backing up your arguement.

 

No Hearts fans actually WANT this to be true. There's nothing to be gained from pretending that we heard racist abuse from our own fans.

That’s if everybody on this site is actually a Hearts fan. Even ones that claim to have been watching us for years have some weird views. 

[Gizmo]

1 hour ago, i8hibsh said:

 

This thread should have been put out it's misery after about page 2.

Yet you spammed it senseless with your "show us the evidence" posts. 

 

18 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Nonsense, what else is the club going to do but issue a statement ? The club have no idea whether it is true or not but the safe thing to do is issue a statement to placate the SJW. Not that they have been placated right enough. 

Being disgusted by racism in no ways equates to the sometimes hysterical & reactionary SJWs. Not in the slightest. You're either dense or deflecting. 

[Dazzle]

18 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

If the club thought it wasn't true, they would have made a point in saying so.

 

You may think different, but I think it happened ( more than enough evidence), time to fix it and make sure it doesn't happen again, not to imply he's making it up and it never happened.

 

Thankfully, The club feels the same way.

 

A rangers type defence statement would have been horrific.

 

LOL, not in this climate of political correctness. Even the hint of such an allegation will draw condemnation from the club in the form of a statement. 

 

I have not seen a shred of evidence that it did actually happen nor have I seen it reported what Mrs Goncalves actually heard. 

[Dazzle]

4 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Yet you spammed it senseless with your "show us the evidence" posts. 

 

Being disgusted by racism in no ways equates to the sometimes hysterical & reactionary SJWs. Not in the slightest. You're either dense or deflecting. 

 

Thu far, I have seen no evidence that anything actually took place. 

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

 

Thu far, I have seen no evidence that anything actually took place. 

What are you looking for?

[Bazzas right boot]

5 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

LOL, not in this climate of political correctness. Even the hint of such an allegation will draw condemnation from the club in the form of a statement. 

 

I have not seen a shred of evidence that it did actually happen nor have I seen it reported what Mrs Goncalves actually heard. 

 

 

apart from the folk , many of which said they have heard it.........

 

If the club thought it was untrue they could still apologised but mentioned we are waiting on blah, blah, report ect to take further action

 

They never. 

 

There is more than enough evidence, unless you don't believe Isma and believe that folk on here are liars. If you simply choose not to believe folk, then there would never be enough evidence unless you heard it yourself, so this debate is pointless.

 

You never heard it, so you don't believe it to be true. well done, tbh that is a good, simple way to live life.

[Dazzle]

7 minutes ago, Peebo said:

What are you looking for?

 

Anything other than hearsay and anecdotes. I would also like to know exactly what it was Mrs Goncalves heard. 

[Dazzle]

3 minutes ago, BigDave'sHeed said:

 

 

apart from the folk , many of which said they have heard it.........

 

If the club thought it was untrue they could still apologised by mentioned we are waiting on blah, blah, report ect to take further action

 

They never.

 

There is more than enough evidence, unless you don't believe Isma and believe that folk on here are liars. If you simply choose not to believe folk, then there would never be enough evidence unless you heard it yourself, so this debate is pointless.

 

You never heard it, so you don't believe it to be true. well done, tbh that is a good, simple way to live life.

 

What folk ? The folk on JKB ? LOL. 

 

What evidence, there is no evidence, there is an allegation. Why should I believe Goncalves (or Mrs Goncalves) or anyone else without evidence ? 

 

Actually, I never read the club statement. 

[Peebo]

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

Anything other than heresy and anecdotes. I would also like to know exactly what it was Mrs Goncalves heard. 

Wouldn’t that be heresay? 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

 

What folk ? The folk on JKB ? LOL. 

 

There is no evidence, there is an allegation. Why should I believe Goncalves (or Mrs Goncalves) or anyone else without evidence ? 

 

Actually, I never read the club statement. 

 

 

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Wouldn’t that be heresay? 

 

 

 

You are correct and that is what I meant to type. However,  questioning the issue does appear to be heresy on JKB. 

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

 

You are correct and that is what I meant to type. However,  questioning the issue does appear to be heresy on JKB. 

Ha! I was avoiding pedantry.

 

I meant your last sentence. 

[i8hibsh]

42 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Yet you spammed it senseless with your "show us the evidence" posts. 

 

Being disgusted by racism in no ways equates to the sometimes hysterical & reactionary SJWs. Not in the slightest. You're either dense or deflecting. 

 

Yup, how dare someone ask for evidence in a criminal matter.

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Yup, how dare someone ask for evidence in a criminal matter.

Witness testimony is evidence. If I say I heard someone racially abusing Isma, that’s evidence which backs up his claims. Whether people believe that evidence is up to them.

 

I think people are mixing up “evidence” and “conclusive proof”. 

[The White Cockade]

Dear God

 

i'm out as well.....

[viva hate]

There are plenty of examples of fans who have witnessed racial abuse on this thread and on Hibs.net about their fans. A guy next to me was racist towards Tavernier earlier this season and was quickly shut down by myself and three or four people around me. Other people were appalled but didn't say anything until after he was gone. Some people don't report things until they the situation had ended. 

Im sure this is the case with Isma and his family and I find it hard to believe people think he may be making it up. 

[Gizmo]

19 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Yup, how dare someone ask for evidence in a criminal matter.

You really need to drop this crusade of yours, it's littered this entire thread with your inane demand for evidence that you know cannot be produced. And it's not a criminal matter, is it since no complaint has been made. 

There have been enough posters on this thread who have corroborated that they heard racist chants. Posters with decent credibility, not just randoms, trolls and enough not to just be dismissed as anecdotal. 

That's as good as your going to get. Really not sure what you hope to achieve by continuing your protestations other than that you are actually getting into the point of calling an increasingly large number of peoples liars. 

 

[Zico]

I’m certain that any minority group will be delighted to hear that all they need to do to be trusted is to report any incident within 24 hours, obtain sworn statements from at least 20 witnesses and then present both audio and video evidence, which should be analysed by language experts to avoid any ‘misunderstanding’.

 

I’m sure we can all agree that this is not too much to ask. 

[socrates82]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

 

What folk ? The folk on JKB ? LOL. 

 

What evidence, there is no evidence, there is an allegation. Why should I believe Goncalves (or Mrs Goncalves) or anyone else without evidence ? 

 

Actually, I never read the club statement. 

 

What more evidence do you need that there are arseholes in the Hearts support, including arseholes who may be racist because they are certainly going to great lengths to deny it happens, than this thread and some of the social media responses? Case closed m’lud. Arseholes gonna arsehole.

[kila]

The lengths i8 is going to dismiss Isma's claim and debate the likelihood this didn't happen is quite incredible and concerning

[Dazzle]

14 minutes ago, socrates82 said:

 

What more evidence do you need that there are arseholes in the Hearts support, including arseholes who may be racist because they are certainly going to great lengths to deny it happens, than this thread and some of the social media responses? Case closed m’lud. Arseholes gonna arsehole.

 

Are you accusing me of being a racist ? Why shouldn't I be skeptical of the claims made by a disgruntled employee ? Why should the club and the vast majority of its supporters be held to account on an unsubstantiated allegation ? 

[Peebo]

9 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

Are you accusing me of being a racist ? Why shouldn't I be skeptical of the claims made by a disgruntled employee ? Why should the club and the vast majority of its supporters be held to account on an unsubstantiated allegation ? 

What would it take to become a substantiated allegation?

 

You don’t have to believe it, but the allegation has been supported. 

[super_vlad]

7 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

Are you accusing me of being a racist ? Why shouldn't I be skeptical of the claims made by a disgruntled employee ? Why should the club and the vast majority of its supporters be held to account on an unsubstantiated allegation ? 

I’m calling you a racist, can you prove me wrong? 

[Dazzle]

4 minutes ago, Peebo said:

What would it take to become a substantiated allegation?

 

You don’t have to believe it, but the allegation has been supported. 

 

By whom and in what way ? You can't just say "the allegation has been supported". 

[Dazzle]

5 minutes ago, super_vlad said:

I’m calling you a racist, can you prove me wrong? 

 

You can call me whatever you please but can you prove I am a racist ? 

[socrates82]

16 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

Are you accusing me of being a racist ? Why shouldn't I be skeptical of the claims made by a disgruntled employee ? Why should the club and the vast majority of its supporters be held to account on an unsubstantiated allegation ? 

 

Maybe you’re just a contrarian but like some others you’re going to great lengths to play down the allegations. By the way everyone knows it’s a handful of eejits and not the club or support as a whole.

[socrates82]

4 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

You can call me whatever you please but can you prove I am a racist ? 

 

How about “racism denier”?

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, socrates82 said:

 

How about “racism denier”?

 

If you are saying that I deny that racists exist then you are flat out making that up. Not one post of mine has denied that racists exist. 

[socrates82]

Just now, Dazzle said:

 

If you are saying that I deny that racists exist then you are flat out making that up. Not one post of mine has denied that racists exist. 

 

“Racism at Tynecastle skeptic”? Just don’t see the point. We all know it’s happened in the past and whether or not we’ve heard it ourselves at games recently (I haven’t but certainly have in the past) that means it possibly, and probably, does still happen. So why not give the benefit of the doubt to Isma and his family?

[Peebo]

15 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

By whom and in what way ? You can't just say "the allegation has been supported". 

I have confirmed Isma has been the subject of racist abuse. Others have, too.

 

That evidence supports his allegation. You can find it by reading this thread.

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, socrates82 said:

 

“Racism at Tynecastle skeptic”? Just don’t see the point. We all know it’s happened in the past and whether or not we’ve heard it ourselves at games recently (I haven’t but certainly have in the past) that means it possibly, and probably, does still happen. So why not give the benefit of the doubt to Isma and his family?

 

Again, what is the point of you making up another spurious term that is demonstrably false ? 

 

Yes, racial slurs have been hurled from the support in the past. But that does not prove this incident occurred. It may well have occurred but I am not certain it did so I remain skeptical of the claims of a disgruntled employee. 

[Dazzle]

10 minutes ago, Peebo said:

I have confirmed Isma has been the subject of racist abuse. Others have, too.

 

That evidence supports his allegation. You can find it by reading this thread.

 

As I said earlier, I did not read the entire thread. You could have cleared this up several posts ago. I did not realise that you were there to witness the incident. 

[socrates82]

10 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

Again, what is the point of you making up another spurious term that is demonstrably false ? 

 

Yes, racial slurs have been hurled from the support in the past. But that does not prove this incident occurred. It may well have occurred but I am not certain it did so I remain skeptical of the claims of a disgruntled employee. 

 

“Isma the victim of racism at Tynecastle skeptic”?

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, socrates82 said:

 

“Isma the victim of racism at Tynecastle skeptic”?

 

Again, what is the point of you posting.  That has been my position from the start and I have been very up front with that. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion ? 

[Peebo]

14 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

As I said earlier, I did not read the entire thread. You could have cleared this up several posts ago. I did not realise that you were there to witness the incident. 

You’ve been involved in a conversation above where it’s been stated (more than once) that the allegation has been supported. Yet you still stated it was unsubstantiated. Your argument was based on that conclusion, despite ignoring the posts above, never mind the previous 25+ pages. 

[Perth to Paisley]

There is racism.

There is sectarianism

There is homophobia

 

I believe the club should ask the media (written and tv) to help us highlight it at Tynecastle and every other ground Scotland .... and get all clubs to impose a zero tolerance approach.

Would be wonderful if we didn't have to tolerate any of it.

Hopefully the media exposure can drive change.

[Dazzle]

10 minutes ago, Peebo said:

You’ve been involved in a conversation above where it’s been stated (more than once) that the allegation has been supported. Yet you still stated it was unsubstantiated. Your argument was based on that conclusion, despite ignoring the posts above, never mind the previous 25+ pages. 

 

You were there and did witness the incident, right ? 

[Peebo]

3 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

You were there and did witness the incident, right ? 

Not sure which particular incident you are referring to. 

 

I have heard Isma receiving racist abuse, though. 

[socrates82]

13 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 

Again, what is the point of you posting.  That has been my position from the start and I have been very up front with that. Do you have anything of substance to add to the discussion ? 

 

Yes the question still hasn't been answered why you are choosing to be so sceptical instead of giving the guy the benefit of the doubt due to the fact we all know this has happened at Tynecastle before? 

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

1 hour ago, kila said:

The lengths i8 is going to dismiss Isma's claim and debate the likelihood this didn't happen is quite incredible and concerning

 

He hasn't dismissed anything. He has as far as I can see asked for more substantial proof than people jumping in well after the fact claiming to have heard it. The same people who failed to mention it at the time on here or to the relevant authorities. 

 

Eta what concerns you about asking for more than anecdotal proof? 

[Dazzle]

2 minutes ago, Peebo said:

Not sure which particular you are referring to. 

 

I have heard Isma receiving racist abuse, though. 

 

I was referring to the article in the EEN where Goncalves alleges his wife and family could no longer attend games because of racist abuse directed at him. That he says he never heard either. And I still don't know what was said. 

[Dazzle]

7 minutes ago, socrates82 said:

 

Yes the question still hasn't been answered why you are choosing to be so sceptical instead of giving the guy the benefit of the doubt due to the fact we all know this has happened at Tynecastle before? 

 

I am not choosing to be skeptical, that's just the position I find myself in due to a lack of evidence. And just to clarify, I'm talking specifically about the allegations in the EEN from his family that the abuse was so bad, they could no longer attend matches. 

[GorgieRules22]

This will just keep dragging on.

 

Lets just draw a line in the sand here.

 

Racism is wrong but there is no doubt that the Isma allegations have been fabricated to an extent. His brother stated that we didn't celebrate a goal because he scored it and so on, complete rubbish.

 

Lets move on, big game tommorow!!