Goncalves - some Hearts fans in racist abuse claims

[wavydavy]

13 hours ago, Peebo said:

Not sure which particular incident you are referring to. 

 

I have heard Isma receiving racist abuse, though. 

 

I've heard abuse aimed at lots of different players. Is that allowed as opposed to racial abuse?

 

I wonder if and when Conor Sammon leaves us he will go to the press about being called a "Baldy *******" which I have heard at games.

 

Any sort of abuse should in an ideal situation never happen and our Club will do all they can to stamp it out where they can but people vent their frustations at games and sometimes they might say or shout something that they instantly regret.

 

If they are caught then I am sure the Club will act accordingly but equally do we want to be so closely monitored?

[Deevers]

49 minutes ago, stotty said:

Yep - was embarrassing. 

FWIW, I think Isma got a really tough time from the fans. He didn't appear to particularly like playing for Hearts. But I personally have never heard any racist abuse aimed at him. It also seems none of Craig Levein or Michael Smith's friends, families or acquaintances have heard any (going by their comments). So it was obviously fairly isolated (I presume players and staff's families sit near each other). And I don't think racism specifically  drove him out, he's moved to uzbekistan FFS! 

He'll know all about it there. These Eastern European or former Soviet states are hotbeds of racism.  

[Peebo]

15 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Where did I suggest it didn't happen? Innocent until proven guilty so until someone is found guilty it is an allegation.

 

 

I didn’t suggest you did.

[wavydavy]

1 minute ago, Peebo said:

I didn’t suggest you did.

This is a quote from your post.

 

 If you don’t believe what he says, or those saying they have heard him being racially abused, fair enough.

[Peebo]

2 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

I've heard abuse aimed at lots of different players. Is that allowed as opposed to racial abuse?

 

I wonder if and when Conor Sammon leaves us he will go to the press about being called a "Baldy *******" which I have heard at games.

 

Any sort of abuse should in an ideal situation never happen and our Club will do all they can to stamp it out where they can but people vent their frustations at games and sometimes they might say or shout something that they instantly regret.

 

If they are caught then I am sure the Club will act accordingly but equally do we want to be so closely monitored?

I’d prefer fans didn’t abuse our players, but each to their own. It’s not illegal, as such.

 

Racial abuse is unacceptable.

[Peebo]

Just now, wavydavy said:

This is a quote from your post.

 

 If you don’t believe what he says, or those saying they have heard him being racially abused, fair enough.

And?

[redm]

2 hours ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Oi, why not take my accusation at face value?

 

 

Am I the wrong sex, gender and colour?

 

 

 

 

That’s kind of the point I’m making. You’re happy to accept vague sweeping statements with no real evidence when it’s  part of a position that allows you to try and discredit the existence of racism. Why would you be more comfortable with that? Your default position is not to believe someone who says they’re a victim. That’s just peculiar.

 

From someone so fixed on irrefutable evidence.... it’s quite interesting, isn’t it? 

[redm]

1 hour ago, stotty said:

I remember Larry Kingston falsely accusing a ref of racism not long into his Hearts career, if that counts? 

 

Suspecting that someone might have mistaken non-racist behaviour for racism at some point isn’t irrefutable evidence though. Nor is the colour of the referee’s wife’s skin. 

[redm]

3 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

John Barnes complaining that he never got offered managerial roles because of his colour?

 

Okay, so what does his behaviour have to do with Isma? What’s the link between Barnes’ comments and Isma’s? Because one black man once said something about racist treatment and you didn’t believe him, you now don’t believe any black men when they speak of racist treatment?

 

Do you apply that same criteria when white men say things you don’t believe to be true? 

[stotty]

4 minutes ago, redm said:

 

Suspecting that someone might have mistaken non-racist behaviour for racism at some point isn’t irrefutable evidence though. Nor is the colour of the referee’s wife’s skin. 

Didn't mention the ref's wife's skin, just that Kingston falsely accused a referee of racism - something that was clearly untrue and not backed up by any of his team mates at the time.

 

[stotty]

3 minutes ago, redm said:

 

Okay, so what does his behaviour have to do with Isma? What’s the link between Barnes’ comments and Isma's

Maybe because you asked for examples of people playing the race card?

[redm]

5 minutes ago, stotty said:

Maybe because you asked for examples of people playing the race card?

 

I didn’t though, I asked for proof that “race cards are played falsely all the time”.... 

[stotty]

Ha, okay then. Totally different.

 

[redm]

“Black man said something I didn’t believe about racism” =====> “therefore it’s perfectly acceptable that all claims of racism from black men should be viewed with suspicion.”

 

Is that about it? Quite a leap.

What fuels leaps like that? ?

 

 

 

 

[stotty]

4 minutes ago, redm said:

 

I didn’t though, I asked for proof that “race cards are played falsely all the time”.... 

Ha, okay then. Totally different. You've been given 2 examples and dismissed both out of hand.

[Des Lynam]

1 hour ago, stotty said:

Yep - was embarrassing. 

FWIW, I think Isma got a really tough time from the fans. He didn't appear to particularly like playing for Hearts. But I personally have never heard any racist abuse aimed at him. It also seems none of Craig Levein or Michael Smith's friends, families or acquaintances have heard any (going by their comments). So it was obviously fairly isolated (I presume players and staff's families sit near each other). And I don't think racism specifically  drove him out, he's moved to uzbekistan FFS! 

 

You are aware Uzbekistan is 90% muslim. 

[wavydavy]

56 minutes ago, Peebo said:

And?

  15 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Where did I suggest it didn't happen? Innocent until proven guilty so until someone is found guilty it is an allegation.

 

 

I didn’t suggest you did.

 

This is what I replied to above.

 

If you don’t believe what he says, or those saying they have heard him being racially abused, fair enough. 

[i8hibsh]

12 minutes ago, redm said:

 

That’s kind of the point I’m making. You’re happy to accept vague sweeping statements with no real evidence when it’s  part of a position that allows you to try and discredit the existence of racism. Why would you be more comfortable with that? Your default position is not to believe someone who says they’re a victim. That’s just peculiar.

 

From someone so fixed on irrefutable evidence.... it’s quite interesting, isn’t it? 

 

 

Sory redm but where on this thread have I at any stage "discredited the existance of racism"? Racism is rife all over the world (including dare I say it, non white countries). For the (what seems)  billionth time she may be telling the truth but she may and I mean JUST may not be. You are a good person redm, you really are but you seem to think anyone that questions anything that a 'minority' does is not. To hate someone who just so happens to be black does not make you Adolf Hitler. To have utter distain for the whole diversity of everything does not make you Bernard Manning. You are allowed to say bad things and question a non white straight male without it being because they are a non white straight male. We both want a very fair society redm, our issue is we have polar views on what 'fairness' is.

[stotty]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 

You are aware Uzbekistan is 90% muslim. 

And therefore not doesn't suffer from racism? Pretty certain Uzbekistan is far more backwards than the UK.

[Des Lynam]

1 minute ago, stotty said:

And therefore not doesn't suffer from racism? Pretty certain Uzbekistan is far more backwards than the UK.

 

Do you think Russians still queue for bread? 

[Alva-Jambo]

Its Muslim all right but I dont think many of them are black.  Are Muslims and blacks synonymous?  I doubt it.

 

If he had gone to play in Hungary  Russia Poland Solvakia Ukraine  Serbia, and many other countries he would get masses of racial abuse

( though mainly from opposing fans). Many of these clubs are still at the bannana throwing and monkey chant stage.  It is awful.

 

Compared to many nations, Scotland is already a bastion of non-abuse.  But- read on!  

 

I  do agree that even one Hearts supporter shouting any racist abuse should be banned if caught doing so - but, so should 25,000 Newco fans for the songs they get away with.

 

Sectarian chanting and racial verbal abuse I assume are similar in terms of non acceptability and penalties?  Anyone? 

 

 

 

 

[stotty]

Just now, Des Lynam said:

 

Do you think Russians still queue for bread? 

Why do you keep asking me ridiculous questions? He moved to Uzkebistan for a wedge of cash, nothing more, nothing less. And I don't blame him!

[Des Lynam]

Just now, stotty said:

Why do you keep asking me ridiculous questions? He moved to Uzkebistan for a wedge of cash, nothing more, nothing less. And I don't blame him!

 

How is he getting on? Seeing as you know him so well....

[stotty]

1 minute ago, Des Lynam said:

 

How is he getting on? Seeing as you know him so well....

Haha, pathetic comment. I'll not bother continuing this any further.

[manaliveits105]

Mods could we just close this thread now please 

[redm]

3 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

 

Sory redm but where on this thread have I at any stage "discredited the existance of racism"? Racism is rife all over the world (including dare I say it, non white countries). For the (what seems)  billionth time she may be telling the truth but she may and I mean JUST may not be. You are a good person redm, you really are but you seem to think anyone that questions anything that a 'minority' does is not. To hate someone who just so happens to be black does not make you Adolf Hitler. To have utter distain for the whole diversity of everything does not make you Bernard Manning. You are allowed to say bad things and question a non white straight male without it being because they are a non white straight male. We both want a very fair society redm, our issue is we have polar views on what 'fairness' is.

 

Oh come on. Most of that is just mad conjecture, deflection, projection and assumptions that aren’t true.... it’s not about you or I anyway. 

 

Let’s stick to the subject in hand?

 

In a round about sort of way i’m wondering why you give benefit of doubt in the way you do. Given the weight of the likelihood that racist comments were made (I’ve seen 50+ Hearts fans confirming this shit happens, people who have no vested interest in lying, quite the opposite) why doesn’t Isma’s wife get benefit of the doubt? 

 

Why on earth would she lie? What evidence is there to suggest that Isma’s wife is/was likely to make false claims?

 

[stotty]

3 minutes ago, redm said:

 

Oh come on. Most of that is just mad conjecture, deflection, projection and assumptions that aren’t true.... it’s not about you or I anyway. 

 

Let’s stick to the subject in hand?

 

In a round about sort of way i’m wondering why you give benefit of doubt in the way you do. Given the weight of the likelihood that racist comments were made (I’ve seen 50+ Hearts fans confirming this shit happens, people who have no vested interest in lying, quite the opposite) why doesn’t Isma’s wife get benefit of the doubt? 

 

Why on earth would she lie? What evidence is there to suggest that Isma’s wife is/was likely to make false claims?

 

I've not read the whole thread but don't recall anyone calling her a liar? I certainly haven't.

[jack D and coke]

4 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

John Barnes complaining that he never got offered managerial roles because of his colour?

That clown El Hadj Diouf played the race card a few times too. 

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Mods could we just close this thread now please 

17 dead in a Florida school. Aid workers accused of large scale child and other abuse. A football coach guilty of child abuse on an industrial scale. Three terrible wrongs don't make a right but I think JKB as well as the media might be over-doing this a little.

 

Anyway just as well our shirt sponsorship deal wisn't with Oxfam. Although I have read that other charities including possibly Save the Children may also be implicated.

[HeartsInMyBlood]

Racist abuse is unacceptable and it's understandable if he didnt feel able to let us know before he left. However, we need to show we're doing sonething about it - but being realistic, if everytime someone  was arrested at a match for saying things that were cruel /abusive  we'd be looking at a shit load of court appearances every week. Its a societal problem and will take more than a club statement to change that. Sad state of affairs but look how things have changed in the last 30 years from seatbelts in cars, smoking ban, accessibility, equality, LGBT, etc...maybe diversity still to reach some peoples mindsets though?

[Enzo Chiefo]

25 minutes ago, redm said:

 

Oh come on. Most of that is just mad conjecture, deflection, projection and assumptions that aren’t true.... it’s not about you or I anyway. 

 

Let’s stick to the subject in hand?

 

In a round about sort of way i’m wondering why you give benefit of doubt in the way you do. Given the weight of the likelihood that racist comments were made (I’ve seen 50+ Hearts fans confirming this shit happens, people who have no vested interest in lying, quite the opposite) why doesn’t Isma’s wife get benefit of the doubt? 

 

Why on earth would she lie? What evidence is there to suggest that Isma’s wife is/was likely to make false claims?

 

Redm, let's be honest here, Goncalves has hung the club out to dry on this one, for whatever reason. If Mrs G had made the claims at the time, the next day or whenever, then they may have had more credibility.  It could well be that they are bitter about the treatment Isma received from the fans because of his performances on the park?? Or some other reason? It's not beyond the realms of possibility that she did hear the odd racist comment, whic h of course would be appalling.  However, if someone is  claiming that the abuse was at a level that stopped you wanting to go to games and indeed forced you to move country because "we don't feel welcome in Edinburgh" then it beggars belief that not only was it not reported at the time  to anyone, but that no-one in the vicinity that MUST have been aware of this did not report it either. Furthermore, no-one mentioned it on here. Those claiming to have heard racist abuse directed at Isma cannot corroborate Mrs G's accusation unless they were sitting in the area where it happened and will therefore have witnessed it first hand. 

 

Another incredible part of this claim is tgat Isma did not feel able to tell Craig Levein ,  Ann Budge or Austin MacPhee, whom he knows well from ST Mirren, even when he had decided to leave. Yet, he was happy to tell all to a random member of the press corps by throwing it out there without any firm evidence, damaging the reputation of both the club and Edinburgh in the process. Something about this doesn't add up for me.

[i8hibsh]

32 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

That clown El Hadj Diouf played the race card a few times too. 

 

Our very own Laryea Kingston too. A game v Aberdeen up in Pittodrie. Played it with a ref and later retracted.

 

Redm, sorry but I need more than "why would she lie".

[Peebo]

1 hour ago, wavydavy said:

  15 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

Where did I suggest it didn't happen? Innocent until proven guilty so until someone is found guilty it is an allegation.

 

 

I didn’t suggest you did.

 

This is what I replied to above.

 

If you don’t believe what he says, or those saying they have heard him being racially abused, fair enough. 

A general comment, in the context of the statement about lack of corroboration, and one which addressed the possibility people (including you, and anyone else) may not have believed the claim. Not the same as suggesting you didn’t. 

[wavydavy]

10 minutes ago, Peebo said:

A general comment, in the context of the statement about lack of corroboration, and one which addressed the possibility people (including you, and anyone else) may not have believed the claim. Not the same as suggesting you didn’t. 

 

If it's a general comment  and not specifically aimed at me then why attach it to my post?

[Peebo]

18 minutes ago, wavydavy said:

 

If it's a general comment  and not specifically aimed at me then why attach it to my post?

To repeat what I just said in the post you just quoted, it was in the context of responding to your statement about the claims being “without corroboration”. A statement which is bullshit.

 

To repeat, it’s up to people what they do or don’t believe, but to suggest there is nothing supporting Isma’s claims is simply nonsense. 

[wavydavy]

9 minutes ago, Peebo said:

To repeat what I just said in the post you just quoted, it was in the context of responding to your statement about the claims being “without corroboration”. A statement which is bullshit.

 

To repeat, it’s up to people what they do or don’t believe, but to suggest there is nothing supporting Isma’s claims is simply nonsense. 

This is what I wrote previously below and if you read the whole comment then it may read a bit differently to how you are portraying. I don't think you really get what I am intimating here. But I am not going to make anymore comments after this.

 

Somebody who has an axe to grind and making comments about racial abuse without corroboration would not stand up in a Scottish Court because that is what our laws state. Had he stated at the time that he or his family had heard these alleged comments and asked the club or the Police to do something about it then there is a case to answer. He chose to say nothing to those who could have helped resolve this problem at the time but for whatever reason only he can answer he chose to contain the...

[Peebo]

1 minute ago, wavydavy said:

This is what I wrote previously below and if you read the whole comment then it may read a bit differently to how you are portraying. I don't think you really get what I am intimating here. But I am not going to make anymore comments after this.

 

Somebody who has an axe to grind and making comments about racial abuse without corroboration would not stand up in a Scottish Court because that is what our laws state. Had he stated at the time that he or his family had heard these alleged comments and asked the club or the Police to do something about it then there is a case to answer. He chose to say nothing to those who could have helped resolve this problem at the time but for whatever reason only he can answer he chose to contain the...

I read every comment that I reply to. 

 

Enjoy the second half. 

[wavydavy]

13 minutes ago, Peebo said:

I read every comment that I reply to. 

 

Enjoy the second half. 

 Same to you at least we have scored in what seems a pretty poor game.

[MacDonald Jardine]

16 hours ago, feedthefox said:

 

Sorry Lambo not wishing to duck your valid questions but I’m abroad on holiday so time on kB is limited that said. 

 

I sit in the new stand section R and the other st holders around me are all pretty decent and despite some grumblings I’ve not heard anything remotely racist. However when we played Hibs in cup my tickets were elsewhere in new stand. There was a woman behind me (about 50) who was apoplectic with Isma throughout the whole game. Every time it was “ Levein get that fat useless lazy ******* off”.  I was just waiting for her to throw in the “black” word but somehow she managed not to..Her agression towards him was very uncomfortable and just beacause she didn’t actually use any expressive racist terms it still had a very uncomfortable undertone. 

 

Actuall racist abuse I heard twice at away games. Pretty much the above but this time with “black”  in the mix. No idea who these horrible people were and have not seen them again. I take my two young kids so I’m afraid it simply isn’t realistic that I could   take direct action or provide any worthwhile evidence by way of reporting. Better I point out to my kids that this iunfortunately exists and has no place in their lives. 

 

 

He was shite though. 

The woman you quote was entirely justified. Is she supposed to lay off him because he's black?

We seem to be moving from specifically racist abuse, which can't be justified, to any abuse is wrong. 

[MacDonald Jardine]

3 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Do you think Russians still queue for bread? 

You think Russians are more racially aware than we are?

[Sir Vladimir of Romanov]

3 hours ago, redm said:

“Black man said something I didn’t believe about racism” =====> “therefore it’s perfectly acceptable that all claims of racism from black men should be viewed with suspicion.”

 

Is that about it? Quite a leap.

What fuels leaps like that? ?

 

 

 

 

 

Do you feel the need to constantly imply others are racist? The above post is simply one of many by you on this thread doing just that. 

 

How dare you lecture people and try to paint them as racist, what fuels such behaviour? 

[MacDonald Jardine]

5 hours ago, stotty said:

I remember Larry Kingston falsely accusing a ref of racism not long into his Hearts career, if that counts? 

In fairness that was a horrific decision. 

It may not have been racist but it was inexplicable. 

[Nookie Bear]

4 hours ago, redm said:

 

Okay, so what does his behaviour have to do with Isma? What’s the link between Barnes’ comments and Isma’s? Because one black man once said something about racist treatment and you didn’t believe him, you now don’t believe any black men when they speak of racist treatment?

 

Do you apply that same criteria when white men say things you don’t believe to be true? 

 

Because you asked for evidence that the race card has been played. 

 

I wasnt passing comment on it, justifying it, or refuting anything, I was just giving you an example and others have added a handful. 

 

On that basis, the actions of a similar amount of white men towards Isma do not represent me so...the club or JKB can stick any public display against racism, quite frankly. 

[i8hibsh]

17 hours ago, Jefferson Davis Hogg said:

Is it just me or does anyone else think it was i8 who shouted the abuse at isma. 

 

I missed this post first time roud. Where the **** do you get off posting that?

 

[Nookie Bear]

Just now, i8hibsh said:

 

I missed this post first time roud. Where the **** do you get off posting that?

 

 

I heard you were too busy smacking female footballers over the head with your rolled up Daily Mail. 

[i8hibsh]

5 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I heard you were too busy smacking female footballers over the head with your rolled up Daily Mail. 

 

Er I read it online. You are so 90s.

[William H. Bonney]

6 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

I missed this post first time roud. Where the **** do you get off posting that?

 

 

So not true then? 

[Nookie Bear]

2 minutes ago, i8hibsh said:

 

Er I read it online. You are so 90s.

 

I’m more 1970’s. Alf Garnett, Love Thy Neighbour...bring back those classics!

[Francis Albert]

2 minutes ago, Nookie Bear said:

 

I’m more 1970’s. Alf Garnett, Love Thy Neighbour...bring back those classics!

Alf Garnett was a classic for anyone who was opposed to racism and was able to think. The whole point of warren mitchell's performance was anti-racial and anti prejudice. Love Thy Neighbour was another kettle of fish but in her autobiography Hope Powell (black gay former England manager) says when growing up  it was her family's favourite tv show because rarely for those days it featured black characters and did so sympathetically. The world is more complicated than some people think.

[Nookie Bear]

31 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Alf Garnett was a classic for anyone who was opposed to racism and was able to think. The whole point of warren mitchell's performance was anti-racial and anti prejudice. Love Thy Neighbour was another kettle of fish but in her autobiography Hope Powell (black gay former England manager) says when growing up  it was her family's favourite tv show because rarely for those days it featured black characters and did so sympathetically. The world is more complicated than some people think.

 

Certainly not black and white