Hard Brexit

[Francis Albert]

33 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Everyone has a say, yes. This means that everyone has the responsibility to educate themselves in advance (you know, like any professional does for any brief, project, you name it) and especially, take responsibility for their decision afterwards.

 

Above, you've just explained what freedom of movement is and isn't. Despite a campaign lasting goodness knows how long, next to nobody in the UK even knows what you explained. And in the age of the internet, I find that laughable. 

 

Remember that stuff about people googling "what is the EU?" and suchlike in the hours after the polling stations closed? Sums the whole thing up tbh. 

 

Democracy only survives and prospers through education, and through people bothering their backsides to inform themselves. Everyone has a stake in doing so. When they abandon that responsibility, we get Brexit, and we get Trump.

Wow. Just Wow. Maybe as a first step we should impose a literacy test on people before they are entitled to vote. You know like in the old days in the Deep South ... in fact actually for many Republicans, like in the new days in the Deep South.

 

[Darren]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Obviously agree on point 2. But on point 1: people who didn't understand the complexities (most? All?) involved in such an enormous change shouldn't have voted. With power comes responsibility - and voters saying "you can't blame us" as well as saying "how dare you call us stupid?" doesn't really wash I'm afraid. 

 

In your scenario, the government should have been more responsible and never allowed this matter to go to the electorate.

However you look at it, the government is to blame for its current plight.

[Francis Albert]

1 minute ago, Darren said:

 

In your scenario, the government should have been more responsible and never allowed this matter to go to the electorate.

However you look at it, the government is to blame for its current plight.

But it wasn't just "the Government" or the "Tories". The House of Commons voted by 6 to 1 to hold the referendum. So most Labour MPs too.

[Darren]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

But it wasn't just "the Government" or the "Tories". The House of Commons voted by 6 to 1 to hold the referendum. So most Labour MPs too.

 

True. Do you think we would have had a vote on leaving the EU if the Conservatives didn't have a majority at the time?

[JamboX2]

3 hours ago, jake said:

That's a failure of politicians jambo not the wishes if people to leave the EU.

 

Again that does nothing to answer the question - what is our relationship with the EU to be? 

 

Once that is answered we can sort the rest out. So you want out? Do you want to have a Norway style deal  (not CU but SM)? To be like Switzerland? Or Turkey? Or would you rather we went to a Canada type deal?

 

Those are the options. 

[Sraman]

All this talk of Switzerland has brought a question to mind.

 

Has anyone here ever driven into Switzerland from an EU country and, if so, do you think the peoples of both Irelands will be happy with such a situation being put in place at their border?

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

So in voting for something you thought was good for the UK, its impact on part of the UK and your fellow Britons didn't even occur to you. Thanks for confirming that.

 

Thanks also for confirming that you're not even reading Ulysses' posts, let alone attempting to understand them.

 

 

 

 

It is jake we're talking about.  So desperate to regain his little England that he's prepared to support the republican movement while doing so. 

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, jake said:

And that the best people to answer that question is the Irish.

 

That is to deny the role and identity of the British. 

 

What next from you?  Songs about Bobby ****ing Sands?

[Ulysses]

Why are people debating the vote?

 

The vote's over.  You're leaving. 

 

The problem is that your government needs to stop messing about and start proactively representing your interests, instead of doing the political equivalent of running the 100 metres for people with no sense of direction.

[JamboX2]

15 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

Why are people debating the vote?

 

The vote's over.  You're leaving. 

 

The problem is that your government needs to stop messing about and start proactively representing your interests, instead of doing the political equivalent of running the 100 metres for people with no sense of direction.

 

I think you'll find we're running the race but the other racers aren't running in the same direction us. Making it an unfair race.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, Sraman said:

All this talk of Switzerland has brought a question to mind.

 

Has anyone here ever driven into Switzerland from an EU country and, if so, do you think the peoples of both Irelands will be happy with such a situation being put in place at their border?

Yes and it is a totally painless exercise. In fact a lot less time consuming and difficult (or even indeed noticeable) than driving from the UK to France (or vice versa) is currently. And a lot less difficult I suspect than driving from Norway to Sweden, though I have not done that.. The difference in relation to Ireland is that no-one in Switzerland or its EU neighbours or in Sweden and Norway objects to minimal border surveillance  arrangements  whereas in Ireland (as the Times reported yesterday) militant republicans and even militant Unionist farmers state the they would not hesitate to destroy any cameras or other controls over the ROI/NI border. That threat, if it doesn't dictate, certainly strongly influences any solution to the border question, which in the absence of such threats would be a lot less complicated than the EU and the Irish Government  would for obvious reasons of self-interest  like us to believe.

[shaun.lawson]

3 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Wow. Just Wow. Maybe as a first step we should impose a literacy test on people before they are entitled to vote. 

 

Sounds good to me. Though I'd go further, and reintroduce the old system of 2 votes for Oxbridge alumni.

 

To be serious for a moment: I am sick to the back teeth of this attitude that we are all unsuspecting, helpless victims with no control over our lives. That's the very nonsense attitude - "Let's Take Back Control!" (from what? From an abstract idea?) - that the Leave campaign preyed on and got us into this mess in the first place. It's always someone else's fault? No. It's our fault. 

 

The referendum was indeed, as Darren said, a Cameron vanity project. But he only got to implement it, and screw it up, because the British people in their infinite wisdom gave his party a majority. This was in order to save Britain from "a coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband and the SNP", apparently.  

 

But then, why did Cameron put a referendum in the Tory manifesto? It wasn't just to try and fix the divisions in his party (in fact, that makes no sense, because his party and grassroots have been flat out Europhobic for decades). It was because a large majority of the British people had wanted a referendum for many years. Despite the same large majority of the British people clearly understanding next to **** all about the thing they were complaining about. And doing next to **** all to educate themselves about it either.

 

So we had the referendum. And the campaign and fallout amply illustrated why we'd avoided having one for so long. It is absolutely ridiculous to expect the public to vote Yes or No with a 50%+1 threshold on an issue as complex as this - but it was also absolutely ridiculous and so arrogant, it's unbelievable, for the same ill-informed public to have demanded such a referendum for so long. People playing fire with their own lives, their children's, their grandchildren's. And many people voting Leave just for the hell of it; just to "shake things up".  

 

Why is all this relevant to the here and now? Because most Leavers now either indulge in an almost religious blind faith that everything will be just fine; and/or still refuse to educate themselves on basic points regarding what the UK government - which they, in their infinite wisdom, retained (or as near as dammit) in office last summer despite said government being an absolute shower of chancers and incompetents - is now doing. Anyone who says anything else is a "Remoaner"; and it won't be long until any barely workable compromise is dismissed by hard Brexiteers as a "sell-out", a betrayal.

 

It is absolutely pathetic. All of it. And while yes, politicians and the media have whipped things up for goodness knows how long, the British public votes for those politicians. And buys those filthy, lying, disgusting papers. For as long as we do, we'll get the politicians and politics we deserve.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Sounds good to me. Though I'd go further, and reintroduce the old system of 2 votes for Oxbridge alumni.

 

To be serious for a moment: I am sick to the back teeth of this attitude that we are all unsuspecting, helpless victims with no control over our lives. That's the very nonsense attitude - "Let's Take Back Control!" (from what? From an abstract idea?) - that the Leave campaign preyed on and got us into this mess in the first place. It's always someone else's fault? No. It's our fault. 

 

The referendum was indeed, as Darren said, a Cameron vanity project. But he only got to implement it, and screw it up, because the British people in their infinite wisdom gave his party a majority. This was in order to save Britain from "a coalition of chaos under Ed Miliband and the SNP", apparently.  

 

But then, why did Cameron put a referendum in the Tory manifesto? It wasn't just to try and fix the divisions in his party (in fact, that makes no sense, because his party and grassroots have been flat out Europhobic for decades). It was because a large majority of the British people had wanted a referendum for many years. Despite the same large majority of the British people clearly understanding next to **** all about the thing they were complaining about. And doing next to **** all to educate themselves about it either.

 

So we had the referendum. And the campaign and fallout amply illustrated why we'd avoided having one for so long. It is absolutely ridiculous to expect the public to vote Yes or No with a 50%+1 threshold on an issue as complex as this - but it was also absolutely ridiculous and so arrogant, it's unbelievable, for the same ill-informed public to have demanded such a referendum for so long. People playing fire with their own lives, their children's, their grandchildren's. And many people voting Leave just for the hell of it; just to "shake things up".  

 

Why is all this relevant to the here and now? Because most Leavers now either indulge in an almost religious blind faith that everything will be just fine; and/or still refuse to educate themselves on basic points regarding what the UK government - which they, in their infinite wisdom, retained (or as near as dammit) in office last summer despite said government being an absolute shower of chancers and incompetents - is now doing. Anyone who says anything else is a "Remoaner"; and it won't be long until any barely workable compromise is dismissed by hard Brexiteers as a "sell-out", a betrayal.

 

It is absolutely pathetic. All of it. And while yes, politicians and the media have whipped things up for goodness knows how long, the British public votes for those politicians. And buys those filthy, lying, disgusting papers. For as long as we do, we'll get the politicians and politics we deserve.

 

You have a pretty low opinion of Britain and the British don't you? Fair enough. And I am sure you are much happier in Uruguay.  You think those who live here are not entitled to vote how they choose to when invited to do so. You are for me the equivalent of Sean Connery on Scottish independence. You are entitled of course to express your opinions but for me they carry less weight than those of people who live here and pay their taxes.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

You have a pretty low opinion of Britain and the British don't you? Fair enough. And I am sure you are much happier in Uruguay.  You think those who live here are not entitled to vote how they choose to when invited to do so. You are for me the equivalent of Sean Connery on Scottish independence. You are entitled of course to express your opinions but for me they carry less weight than those of people who live here and pay their taxes.

 

I certainly have a very low opinion of half of Britain, yes. That's the same half (or close to it) of Britain which has constantly voted for disgusting policies which have seen homelessness skyrocket, 120000 people die because of austerity, a whole generation of young people written off so the old can get even richer than they already were. I have a very low opinion of that.

 

I daresay, our friends and neighbours have an increasingly low opinion of us too. Given that we spent the duration of our EU membership whining about everything non-stop; have spent the duration since the referendum continuing to whine about everything non-stop; and representing us, because we elected them, is the most incompetent, pathologically lying, unserious government in our entire modern history. Maybe our entire history, period. Which tries continually to blame our friends and neighbours - because that's the only way they can maintain their lies.

 

But given you have such a high opinion of the British people, riddle me this. Name me one time Rupert Murdoch didn't get the result he wanted at an election or referendum. Just one time. You can't... because it's never happened. It almost happened last summer, because enough people are slowly catching on - but not quite. And that is laughable. What a pathetic bunch of sheep.

 

As for your final point: typically individualistic. The amount of people who think something only matters if it will affect them personally is quite extraordinary. Brexit will seriously affect my friends and my family; and I'm a British citizen who makes annual contributions to the British state. You know what I think being British used to stand for? Questioning things, scepticism about big ideas, laughing at ourselves. Never, ever being afraid to look at ourselves in the mirror.  

 

Now, it's become some contest over who can doff their cap and tug their forlocks the most - and if anyone doesn't, they're an "Enemy of the People".

[Sraman]

25 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Yes and it is a totally painless exercise. In fact a lot less time consuming and difficult (or even indeed noticeable) than driving from the UK to France (or vice versa) is currently. And a lot less difficult I suspect than driving from Norway to Sweden, though I have not done that.. The difference in relation to Ireland is that no-one in Switzerland or its EU neighbours or in Sweden and Norway objects to minimal border surveillance  arrangements  whereas in Ireland (as the Times reported yesterday) militant republicans and even militant Unionist farmers state the they would not hesitate to destroy any cameras or other controls over the ROI/NI border. That threat, if it doesn't dictate, certainly strongly influences any solution to the border question, which in the absence of such threats would be a lot less complicated than the EU and the Irish Government  would for obvious reasons of self-interest  like us to believe.

 

More power to the farmers I say, "militant" or not. Indeed, militant farmers. I've heard it all now. We have our government going after health professionals as if they were akin to the miners of the eighties and now the landowners are considered militant??

 

My point, that you so readily missed, was more to do with the vignette. It would be incredibly naive to think that our government wouldn't implement something similar, which would mean farmers crossing the border regularly (haulage companies, taxi drivers, etc.) would effectively be paying two road taxes. I do believe it's hard enough for farmers, and all business, at the moment and Brexit hasn't even kicked in yet. The EU, as we all know, produces far too much food as it is so farmers in the North will struggle to sell their goods across the border anyway without the threat of further tariffs.

[Francis Albert]

45 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I certainly have a very low opinion of half of Britain, yes. That's the same half (or close to it) of Britain which has constantly voted for disgusting policies which have seen homelessness skyrocket, 120000 people die because of austerity, a whole generation of young people written off so the old can get even richer than they already were. I have a very low opinion of that.

 

I daresay, our friends and neighbours have an increasingly low opinion of us too. Given that we spent the duration of our EU membership whining about everything non-stop; have spent the duration since the referendum continuing to whine about everything non-stop; and representing us, because we elected them, is the most incompetent, pathologically lying, unserious government in our entire modern history. Maybe our entire history, period. Which tries continually to blame our friends and neighbours - because that's the only way they can maintain their lies.

 

But given you have such a high opinion of the British people, riddle me this. Name me one time Rupert Murdoch didn't get the result he wanted at an election or referendum. Just one time. You can't... because it's never happened. It almost happened last summer, because enough people are slowly catching on - but not quite. And that is laughable. What a pathetic bunch of sheep.

 

As for your final point: typically individualistic. The amount of people who think something only matters if it will affect them personally is quite extraordinary. Brexit will seriously affect my friends and my family; and I'm a British citizen who makes annual contributions to the British state. You know what I think being British used to stand for? Questioning things, scepticism about big ideas, laughing at ourselves. Never, ever being afraid to look at ourselves in the mirror.  

 

Now, it's become some contest over who can doff their cap and tug their forlocks the most - and if anyone doesn't, they're an "Enemy of the People".

Truly bizarre post. Just on the last line, whether the Leave voters were right or wrong (and as I have said I think they were wrong) they certainly didn't doff their cap or tug their forelocks. Rather the opposite.

[JamboX2]

7 hours ago, jake said:

No Brexit was not a tactical vote by me .

 

Terrifying that the constitution of a country can be treated like a choice between voting Liberal or SNP to get a Tory unseated. All the wrong reasons in one for me right there.

 

That is the reason why referendums are fruitless. They are not tactical votes. A  nation's constitution cannot and should not be subject to tactical voting. It is far too important to be played with by people like that.

 

7 hours ago, jake said:

But if I believe that an independent Scotland is good and that the EU is not a good thing why should I worry. 

 

You'll diminish us to see the UK broken up to see Scotland rejoin the EU. Fanciful stuff as Brexit makes independence less likely.

 

What you should be concerned about as a Leave voter is Scotland rejoining the EU. And the years of stagnation as we focus on tearing up the UK and EU rather than everything else.

 

7 hours ago, jake said:

 

I agree we do need some new thinking.

Less big government would be a start.

 

 

 

Again terrifying. What aspects of government do you oppose at the moment? Government serves people and is there to protect them from abuses by big business and increasingly is important as bulwark against the super nationals like Amazon and Facebook.

 

What you advocate is more Thatcherism. Less protection for ordinary people and a more American style future. That is where that argument leads. 

 

[JamboX2]

31 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Truly bizarre post. Just on the last line, whether the Leave voters were right or wrong (and as I have said I think they were wrong) they certainly didn't doff their cap or tug their forelocks. Rather the opposite.

 

But they are now expecting that of us all to their world view. I think that's Shaun's point.

 

2 things on that:

 

1. Leave won. But I've 0 time for the laissez-faire ideals of the current UK government on trade. Rules allowing big companies like GKN to be bought up by hostile takeovers and asset stripped. I've little time for Bojos idea of Empire 2.0. I don't think we should be that way post Brexit so I'll continue to oppose their ideas.

 

2. Farage said he'd keep up the good fight of Leave if Remain lost. As did other Brexiters. So don't now demand the same of Remainers to tow the Brexit line. 

[Francis Albert]

12 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But they are now expecting that of us all to their world view. I think that's Shaun's point.

 

2 things on that:

 

1. Leave won. But I've 0 time for the laissez-faire ideals of the current UK government on trade. Rules allowing big companies like GKN to be bought up by hostile takeovers and asset stripped. I've little time for Bojos idea of Empire 2.0. I don't think we should be that way post Brexit so I'll continue to oppose their ideas.

 

2. Farage said he'd keep up the good fight of Leave if Remain lost. As did other Brexiters. So don't now demand the same of Remainers to tow the Brexit line. 

1. How does membership of the eu help on the gkn question?

2. Farage as a role model?

Edited April 8, 2018 by Francis Albert

[jake]

3 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

That is to deny the role and identity of the British. 

 

What next from you?  Songs about Bobby ****ing Sands?

I had to check twice that you posted that.

 

[jake]

30 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Terrifying that the constitution of a country can be treated like a choice between voting Liberal or SNP to get a Tory unseated. All the wrong reasons in one for me right there.

 

That is the reason why referendums are fruitless. They are not tactical votes. A  nation's constitution cannot and should not be subject to tactical voting. It is far too important to be played with by people like that.

 

 

You'll diminish us to see the UK broken up to see Scotland rejoin the EU. Fanciful stuff as Brexit makes independence less likely.

 

What you should be concerned about as a Leave voter is Scotland rejoining the EU. And the years of stagnation as we focus on tearing up the UK and EU rather than everything else.

 

 

 

Again terrifying. What aspects of government do you oppose at the moment? Government serves people and is there to protect them from abuses by big business and increasingly is important as bulwark against the super nationals like Amazon and Facebook.

 

What you advocate is more Thatcherism. Less protection for ordinary people and a more American style future. That is where that argument leads. 

 

? 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by jake

[shaun.lawson]

16 minutes ago, jake said:

I had to check twice that you posted that.

 

 

Why?

[shaun.lawson]

33 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

But they are now expecting that of us all to their world view. I think that's Shaun's point.

 

2 things on that:

 

1. Leave won. But I've 0 time for the laissez-faire ideals of the current UK government on trade. Rules allowing big companies like GKN to be bought up by hostile takeovers and asset stripped. I've little time for Bojos idea of Empire 2.0. I don't think we should be that way post Brexit so I'll continue to oppose their ideas.

 

2. Farage said he'd keep up the good fight of Leave if Remain lost. As did other Brexiters. So don't now demand the same of Remainers to tow the Brexit line. 

 

Correct re: my point, and on all the rest of it. I'm afraid I must've missed the general election in my lifetime when, after the results came in, the Leader of the Opposition said: "It's a fair cop. Now let's abandon our views and support the government for the next 5 years".

[jake]

Wow

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It is your fault. It's anyone who voted Brexit's fault. Suck it up. You won; get over it.

 

With regard to the new Brexit department, incidentally: a good friend of mine worked there for a week only a few weeks ago. He's been working as a project manager for a decade. He has never seen an environment to compare with it. Nobody had a clue what they were doing; staff were being laid off all over the place; there was no communication, nothing. He walked after a week because it was impossible. That's what Brexit campaigners and Brexit voters have done to British government.

 

More broadly: it seems to me what you wish for is localism, "people back in charge of their own lives" and all that. Which is a worthy aspiration, certainly. But it ignores entirely how interdependent the whole world is, in a way that can never be reversed; and it also ignores that the only people who benefit from Brexit will be the very vested interests you're opposed to. 

 

The great tragedy of Brexit is simple. The people who voted for a fairer Britain will get the very opposite. And cause all manner of chaos into the bargain. 

I like that the British people especially like it was the British working  class who cause this chaos.

 

Love it.

[Ulysses]

10 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why?

 

Ah here, don't be asking the lad hard questions like that. 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, jake said:

Wow

I like that the British people especially like it was the British working  class who cause this chaos.

 

Love it.

 

Democracy involves the people getting what they want. Good and hard. 

[jake]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Democracy involves the people getting what they want. Good and hard. 

Something I think you have never experienced.

[jake]

10 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Ah here, don't be asking the lad hard questions like that. 

Aye am toiling right enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jake]

The question of Ireland's future lies in the hands of the voters of Ireland.

Regardless of their identity.

Northern Ireland if it chooses to stay British can for as long as it can.

That demography won't last long.

So what will be 8nteresting is when the time comes to choose is whether the EU is really faked up or the UK.

 

Interesting times.

I'm glad to see them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jake]

?

[Francis Albert]

50 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Correct re: my point, and on all the rest of it. I'm afraid I must've missed the general election in my lifetime when, after the results came in, the Leader of the Opposition said: "It's a fair cop. Now let's abandon our views and support the government for the next 5 years".

No you haven't missed that. No leader of the opposition has ever said anything like that.

I must have missed the general election when the leader of the opposition said "it's no fair, let's re-run the election so we can get the result we want".

[Ulysses]

21 minutes ago, jake said:

Aye am toiling right enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You still haven't answered him.  Waving your little Tricolour doesn't count. 

[Francis Albert]

6 hours ago, Darren said:

 

True. Do you think we would have had a vote on leaving the EU if the Conservatives didn't have a majority at the time?

Probably not but we did and the vast majority of Tory and non-Tory MPs voted for it.

[shaun.lawson]

13 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

No you haven't missed that. No leader of the opposition has ever said anything like that.

I must have missed the general election when the leader of the opposition said "it's no fair, let's re-run the election so we can get the result we want".

 

I haven't suggested the referendum be re-run. Referenda are bad, period. The reason they're bad is they encourage - in fact, they demand - emotion, populism and wild over-simplification over reason, critical thinking and nuance.

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, jake said:

I had to check twice that you posted that.

 

 

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why?

 

 

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

More power to the farmers I say, "militant" or not. Indeed, militant farmers. I've heard it all now. We have our government going after health professionals as if they were akin to the miners of the eighties and now the landowners are considered militant??

 

My point, that you so readily missed, was more to do with the vignette. It would be incredibly naive to think that our government wouldn't implement something similar, which would mean farmers crossing the border regularly (haulage companies, taxi drivers, etc.) would effectively be paying two road taxes. I do believe it's hard enough for farmers, and all business, at the moment and Brexit hasn't even kicked in yet. The EU, as we all know, produces far too much food as it is so farmers in the North will struggle to sell their goods across the border anyway without the threat of further tariffs.

Farmers have always been pretty militant in defence of their interests. Good on them.  I am not aware of any UK proposal to charge "road tax" on vehilcles from the Irish Republic or to impose tariffs on imports from the ROI. I am not aware of any requirement for the ROI to do so on imports from ROI post-Brexit.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

Farmers have always been pretty militant in defence of their interests. Good on them.  I am not aware of any UK proposal to charge "road tax" on vehilcles from the Irish Republic or to impose tariffs on imports from the ROI. I am not aware of any requirement for the ROI to do so on imports from ROI post-Brexit.

 

Ireland's in the single market. The UK is leaving the single market. Wakey wakey. 

[niblick1874]

23 hours ago, Sir Vladimir of Romanov said:

 

Your second  and third paragraphs are totally superfluous with regards my post. As usual you use 1000 words when 20 will do 

 

My post was in regards your attitude to someone you perceive to be less intelligent. 

 

You are far from the nice chap you wish others to see you as. Trying to ridicule another poster is simply nasty and uncalled for. 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

That is to deny the role and identity of the British. 

 

What next from you?  Songs about Bobby ****ing Sands?

 

1 hour ago, jake said:

I had to check twice that you posted that.

 

 

59 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why?

 

Jake, Sir Vlad is spot on with his use of the word nasty. I also know that he is spot on when he says that lawson is far from the nice chap he would want others (on here) to see him as. What Ulysses said in his post aimed at you is beyond nasty as well as cowardly. I will say it again, Nasty and cowardly.

  

[shaun.lawson]

6 minutes ago, niblick1874 said:

 

 

 

 

Jake, Sir Vlad is spot on with his use of the word nasty. I also know that he is spot on when he says that lawson is far from the nice chap he would want others (on here) to see him as. What Ulysses said in his post aimed at you is beyond nasty as well as cowardly. I will say it again, Nasty and cowardly.

  

 

Nick, with your record, if you were to say "after hubris comes nemesis", I'd be off to the bookies to put the house on nemesis coming first. So I shall treat your critique as a badge of honour.  

[jake]

19 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Ireland's in the single market. The UK is leaving the single market. Wakey wakey. 

Wakey wakey .

Your argument is exactly why we should leave the EU.

Deary fekin me .

These two islands have more of a union than the union you feel angry about losing your citizenship for.

 

It's a union which is now wishing to break .

Both unions are.

On the behest of those not served by it.

 

In this reality capitalism rules.

And by those rules and measures Europe is failing.

 

Tell me this would you advocate joining the EU given the export /import ratio.

 

The difference between goods man7factured and service import /export.

 

Or in a wider context if I don't believe in the good of Britons you do not believe 8n the greater good of Europeans .

 

How can you submit to the ineffectual democratic process in Greece.

Or the c9nstant and c9nsistant youth unemployment in southern Europe.

 

If the UK dies not benefit from the EU who does.

The figures are there.

[jake]

?

[Sraman]

21 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Farmers have always been pretty militant in defence of their interests. Good on them.  I am not aware of any UK proposal to charge "road tax" on vehilcles from the Irish Republic or to impose tariffs on imports from the ROI. I am not aware of any requirement for the ROI to do so on imports from ROI post-Brexit.

 

We're never aware of what the government plans to do to us next. They do, however, like to take the piss on a regular basis.

 

As for the Queen, Prince Charles, the Duke of Marlborough and any other landowners of this shithole we call the UK, militant is not a word I would use to describe them.

 

You know, I posted that thing about Switzerland to try and back you against the likes of Shaun  but you came away with that pish as a reply and then continue with the pish above. You need to stop, look and listen before crossing the road.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, jake said:

Wakey wakey .

Your argument is exactly why we should leave the EU.

Deary fekin me .

These two islands have more of a union than the union you feel angry about losing your citizenship for.

 

It's a union which is now wishing to break .

Both unions are.

On the behest of those not served by it.

 

In this reality capitalism rules.

And by those rules and measures Europe is failing.

 

Tell me this would you advocate joining the EU given the export /import ratio.

 

The difference between goods man7factured and service import /export.

 

Or in a wider context if I don't believe in the good of Britons you do not believe 8n the greater good of Europeans .

 

How can you submit to the ineffectual democratic process in Greece.

Or the c9nstant and c9nsistant youth unemployment in southern Europe.

 

If the UK dies not benefit from the EU who does.

The figures are there.

 

1. No they don't. And incidentally: which country's idea was the single market? Oh yes, the UK. Said single market went on to serve us extremely well - and now we're leaving, it'll continue to serve the EU extremely well. But leaving means tariffs. 

 

2. Europe's actually growing. The EU is growing much faster than the UK; currently, and for about a year now, it's been the fastest growing area in the developed world, while the UK lags well behind. 

 

3. Yes, I would advocate joining it: on exactly the terms we enjoyed before voting to leave (but with ID cards and freedom of movement implemented properly). We'll never enjoy those terms again. 

 

4. Sigh. Youth unemployment in southern Europe is because of the euro - which we're not part of. And would never have been part of either.

 

We had the best of both worlds. We're giving it up, and will face closer to the worst of both worlds instead.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, Sraman said:

this shithole we call the UK

 

 

 

Careful. There's people on here who'd lock you up in the Tower for less. 

[Francis Albert]

9 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

We're never aware of what the government plans to do to us next. They do, however, like to take the piss on a regular basis.

 

As for the Queen, Prince Charles, the Duke of Marlborough and any other landowners of this shithole we call the UK, militant is not a word I would use to describe them.

 

You know, I posted that thing about Switzerland to try and back you against the likes of Shaun  but you came away with that pish as a reply and then continue with the pish above. You need to stop, look and listen before crossing the road.

 

 

Thanks for that reasoned response!,

I wouldn't describe the Queen or the Duke of Marlborough as militants. I wouldn't be so complimentary 

Nor would I describe the UK as a shithole.

Each to his own.

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

 

Careful. There's people on here who'd lock you up in the Tower for less. 

No. They would just disagree.

[Sraman]

18 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

 

Careful. There's people on here who'd lock you up in the Tower for less. 

 

The thing that makes it shit is hingin' off the arse end of my country. No towers here.

 

It's the 21st century yet the UK government is stuck in the 19th/18th/17th due to pomp and "tradition". It's absolutely sickening. The money laundering capital of the world, a union that has produced more offshore tax havens than any other country so that those in power pay for nothing leaving the rest of us to toil for nothing. Do not blame the older generation for the youngsters having nothing, it's not their fault. It's entirely the fault of the inept UK government and the ruling classes. This is their design, no-one else's.

 

As the Grenfell tragedy testifies the UK is a shithole that has had the cracks papered over yet we still have those who are more than happy to doff their caps and repeat the mantra "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" while they are being thoroughly reamed.

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

The thing that makes it shit is hingin' off the arse end of my country. No towers here.

 

It's the 21st century yet the UK government is stuck in the 19th/18th/17th due to pomp and "tradition". It's absolutely sickening. The money laundering capital of the world, a union that has produced more offshore tax havens than any other country so that those in power pay for nothing leaving the rest of us to toil for nothing. Do not blame the older generation for the youngsters having nothing, it's not their fault. It's entirely the fault of the inept UK government and the ruling classes. This is their design, no-one else's.

 

As the Grenfell tragedy testifies the UK is a shithole that has had the cracks papered over yet we still have those who are more than happy to doff their caps and repeat the mantra "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" while they are being thoroughly reamed.

 

 

 

If you despise this country so much perhaps it's time to look at emigration as an option. 

[JamboX2]

9 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

1. How does membership of the eu help on the gkn question?

 

Good question. It doesn't we need to change our own laws on GKN type issues. However these take overs are being caused by the City and USA based groups. Leaving the EU - who regulate the City and finance a bit tighter than the UK government would like - opens us up to greater abuses like hostile takeovers.

 

Sonetimes you need to have balance to certain  things.  Imo the EU provided balance to the domestic governance by having a universal level no member could drop below. That limit on free marketeering is where the Tory dilemma on Europe comes from.

 

9 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

2. Farage as a role model?

 

Far from it. But if one group was always going to reject the outcome of the vote one way then why should the other lot accept the outcome. 

 

See Scotland since 2014 for that. 

[shaun.lawson]

3 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

If you despise this country so much perhaps it's time to look at emigration as an option. 

 

Coming from someone who watched Hillsborough being covered up for 23 years and the fans blamed instead, mostly as a result of the same vested interests which Sraman sets out, this is a quite extraordinary comment. 

 

You really don't do critical thinking, do you Seymour?