Hard Brexit

[maroonlegions]

1 minute ago, Boab1874 said:

The £39bn is money due to EU. W T O rules means a hard border in Ireland.Which is against U K law. We are not leaving T E C H R .The Belfast agreement states that the E C J controls the agreement.We want or 37% allowed to vote wants to leave the E C J which kills the Belfast agreement.The U K then is open to sanctions from the U N.We have to support the E U as our 4 freedoms are at risk.The E U must stand firm and destroy the scum that run this country..The U K has 22 independent trade deals and 68 with the E U. We cannot trade after March due to Spain veto on using E U deals for 5 -10 Years.W T O will be refused by U S A  Chile and New Zealand..

Yip.

Other things they can rip up,  apart from human rights is  workers rights, working conditions ect all protected by being IN the EU.

[John Findlay]

3 hours ago, Cade said:

 

We voted to leave without any plans as to how to deal with the NI border.

That's 100% our problem.

The EU is not going to change their rules on external borders just to appease a handful of religious lunatics in the DUP.

Get real.

When it comes to borders. They are the last thing the EU have.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

4 hours ago, Cruyff Turn said:

Theresa May, may as well just resign now. 

 

These are are just parts  of the Good Friday Agreement which must be retained under all circumstances.

 

Remember that the UK Government want to do away with The European Convention of Human Rights and Freedom of Movement.

 

Yet in the Good Friday Agreement it states: 

 

“The British government committed to incorporate the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) into the law of Northern Ireland-and to the establishment of a Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission.”

 

and,

 

“Irrespective of Northern Ireland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, or part of a united Ireland, the right of "the people of Northern Ireland" to "identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both" (as well as their right to hold either or both Britishand/or Irish citizenship) was recognised. By the words "people of Northern Ireland" the Agreement meant "all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence."

 

N.Irish citizens have the right to be EU Citizens as long as Ireland is in the EU and restrictions cannot be placed on their freedom of movement.

 

So they can’t implement either on Northern Ireland or it’s Citizens without breaking all Devolution Settlements across the UK or possibly breaking a 20 year old ceasefire. 

 

Northern Ireland hasn’t had a functioning assembly for nigh on two years. So quite honestly, they can **** off with their whinging

[Space Mackerel]

One way to solve the NI border is for them to have a referendum on Irish unity. I think they would vote to leave the UK too as we are about to soon.

 

[Norm]

We voted to leave the EU. I don't see how we can get humpty because they don't like our offer of a new arrangement regarding the Irish border. We had a perfectly fine arrangement in place already but we decided we didn't want it. Surely it's up to us to offer them a suitable alternative? Why should the onus be on them?

Edited September 21, 2018 by Normthebarman

[Cade]

The conservative and UNIONIST party would never willingly let NI leave.

 

DailyMail loons are demanding that Ireland also leave the EU to solve the border problem

 

Dreams of Empire 2.0 abound.

 

 

[Space Mackerel]

6 minutes ago, Cade said:

The conservative and UNIONIST party would never willingly let NI leave.

 

DailyMail loons are demanding that Ireland also leave the EU to solve the border problem

 

Dreams of Empire 2.0 abound.

 

 

 

Going to be some "Empire" left when NI and Scotland ****s off.

[Victorian]

Alastair Campbell on C4 News just wrote the bible on the Tory / May Brexit fiasco.      Rightly qualified with criticism of Labour.      Utterly nailed it in all departments.

[Space Mackerel]

Maybot and the rest of them, including Ruth D summed up. Kirstine Hair was particularly funny saying the SNP had to come up with a post plan after Brexit today. These people have resorted to lying to stay in power.

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Going to be some "Empire" left when NI and Scotland ****s off.

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, maroonlegions said:

Are you May"s spin doctor by any chance,

 

 

May has fecked up big time and no amount of clever spin on the NI bordered is going to save her .

 

 

Stick to something you are better qualified to speak on instead of copying and pasting from some dodgy socialist website:

 

 

 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Going to be some "Empire" left when NI and Scotland ****s off.

 

You seriously think NI is going to leave the UK?  Where have you been living the past half century?

[Space Mackerel]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You seriously think NI is going to leave the UK?  Where have you been living the past half century?

 

Sort of from this poll. 52% for Indy here, more in NI

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-union-scotland-northern-ireland-nationalists-a8519526.html

[Space Mackerel]

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3068544/brexit-opinion-poll-north-united-ireland-scotland-independence/

 

Some more here ^^^ 

 

 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Sort of from this poll. 52% for Indy here, more in NI

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-union-scotland-northern-ireland-nationalists-a8519526.html

 

52% of what sample?  A ferry going to Parkhead?

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

https://www.thesun.ie/news/3068544/brexit-opinion-poll-north-united-ireland-scotland-independence/

 

Some more here ^^^ 

 

 

 

You are seriously quoting The Sun for facts?

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

52% of what sample?  A ferry going to Parkhead?

1032 people I believe, much like any normal poll. 

[frankblack]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

1032 people I believe, much like any normal poll. 

 

That is a tiny sample and could be biased.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

That is a tiny sample and could be biased.

Wouldn’t be much point in polls then. 

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You are seriously quoting The Sun for facts?

 

Is it the same as the uk sun? I can't open the link but noticed the .ie in the address.

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Boris said:

 

Is it the same as the uk sun? I can't open the link but noticed the .ie in the address.

 

I dunno, I’m surprised you can’t open an Irish addy though. 

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

Is it the same as the uk sun? I can't open the link but noticed the .ie in the address.

 

I assumed so, and didn't want to contaminate my PC by opening the link.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

I dunno, I’m surprised you can’t open an Irish addy though. 

 

Lim on a clapped out old iPad and the browser just won't open it.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, frankblack said:

 

I assumed so, and didn't want to contaminate my PC by opening the link.

 

Assumed? Bit risky given your post about facts! 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Boris said:

 

Lim on a clapped out old iPad and the browser just won't open it.

 

Bad workmen etc....?

[frankblack]

2 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Assumed? Bit risky given your post about facts! 

 

The Sun and facts are words that just don't go together. 

 

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I assumed so, and didn't want to contaminate my PC by opening the link.

 

There is your modern day racism there readers. It's discreetly hidden by "humour"

[frankblack]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

There is your modern day racism there readers. It's discreetly hidden by "humour"

 

I think you missed the point spectacularly.

[Space Mackerel]

10 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Is it the same as the uk sun? I can't open the link but noticed the .ie in the address.

 

Bombshell poll

Opinion poll says 52 per cent of Northern voters would prefer united Ireland if Brexit goes ahead as planned

Meanwhile a separate poll has revealed leaving Europe will give Scotland’s Indy movement a four-point boost

 

TWO new opinion surveys suggest Brexit next March may result in calls for a united Ireland and independence in Scotland.

Results of an online poll published today showed 52 per cent of Northern Ireland voters would prefer to join the Republic if Brexit happens as currently planned — with just 39 per cent remaining committed to the Union.

 

And support for a united Ireland hardened to 56 per cent in the event of the DUP-backed Conservative Government creating a hard border by failing to agree a new relationship with the EU.

By contrast, the Deltapoll survey — conducted for anti-Brexit groups Our Future Our Choice and Best for Britain — showed a 52-to-32 percent majority for staying part of the UK if a second referendum delivered a Remain vote.

Meanwhile a separate poll has revealed leaving Europe will give Scotland’s Indy movement a four-point boost — swinging sentiment to 47 per cent in favour of a split from Britain, with 43 per cent against and ten per cent undecided.

Campaigners pushing for a new “People’s Vote” on Brexit claimed the polls highlighted the “clear and present danger” that leaving Europe poses to the survival of the UK.

 

Best for Britain chief Eloise Todd said: “This is compelling evidence as to why we need to stop and think again.

“The public deserve a say on the final deal, with the knowledge that if Brexit happens we could shatter the Union altogether.”

Scottish Labour MEP Catherine Stihler added: “The Tories’ ­reckless gamble with the EU ­referendum and Theresa May’s disastrous handling of negotiations are stretching the historic bonds that unite us.”

 

“Leaving the EU will be calamitous for Scotland’s economy, and there is no such thing as a good Brexit.”

Voters in both the North and Scotland voted to remain part of the EU in the 2016 referendum, despite the UK as a whole voting to leave.

But UK Prime Minister Theresa May has vowed she will not “give in” to calls for a second vote, insisting it would be a “gross betrayal of our democracy and trust”.

 

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I think you missed the point spectacularly.

 

I've missed every single one of your points then on here ?

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Bombshell poll

Opinion poll says 52 per cent of Northern voters would prefer united Ireland if Brexit goes ahead as planned

Meanwhile a separate poll has revealed leaving Europe will give Scotland’s Indy movement a four-point boost

 

TWO new opinion surveys suggest Brexit next March may result in calls for a united Ireland and independence in Scotland.

Results of an online poll published today showed 52 per cent of Northern Ireland voters would prefer to join the Republic if Brexit happens as currently planned — with just 39 per cent remaining committed to the Union.

 

And support for a united Ireland hardened to 56 per cent in the event of the DUP-backed Conservative Government creating a hard border by failing to agree a new relationship with the EU.

By contrast, the Deltapoll survey — conducted for anti-Brexit groups Our Future Our Choice and Best for Britain — showed a 52-to-32 percent majority for staying part of the UK if a second referendum delivered a Remain vote.

Meanwhile a separate poll has revealed leaving Europe will give Scotland’s Indy movement a four-point boost — swinging sentiment to 47 per cent in favour of a split from Britain, with 43 per cent against and ten per cent undecided.

Campaigners pushing for a new “People’s Vote” on Brexit claimed the polls highlighted the “clear and present danger” that leaving Europe poses to the survival of the UK.

 

Best for Britain chief Eloise Todd said: “This is compelling evidence as to why we need to stop and think again.

“The public deserve a say on the final deal, with the knowledge that if Brexit happens we could shatter the Union altogether.”

Scottish Labour MEP Catherine Stihler added: “The Tories’ ­reckless gamble with the EU ­referendum and Theresa May’s disastrous handling of negotiations are stretching the historic bonds that unite us.”

 

“Leaving the EU will be calamitous for Scotland’s economy, and there is no such thing as a good Brexit.”

Voters in both the North and Scotland voted to remain part of the EU in the 2016 referendum, despite the UK as a whole voting to leave.

But UK Prime Minister Theresa May has vowed she will not “give in” to calls for a second vote, insisting it would be a “gross betrayal of our democracy and trust”.

 

 

If you think the SNP will win an Indy referendum after we have left the EU, you are in for a hell of a shock.

 

People will vote to remain in the UK rather than leave it and pair up with Brussels.  Project Fear will ultimately win.

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

If you think the SNP will win an Indy referendum after we have left the EU, you are in for a hell of a shock.

 

People will vote to remain in the UK rather than leave it and pair up with Brussels.  Project Fear will ultimately win.

 

We are on 52% and climbing up the way (you're going doon the way).

 

A wee bit like Craig Levein's side this season, ken. ? 

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

We are on 52% and climbing up the way (you're going doon the way).

 

A wee bit like Craig Levein's side this season, ken. ? 

 

Polls are not the way to judge a party's form - look at elections, and you took a beating at the last one.

[The Mighty Thor]

14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

If you think the SNP will win an Indy referendum after we have left the EU, you are in for a hell of a shock.

 

People will vote to remain in the UK rather than leave it and pair up with Brussels.  Project Fear will ultimately win.

Is that project fear better together version or the Brexit better apart version. 

I get confused between the strands of bullshit spun by the unionists.

Are we alright with the taffs, paddys and jocks but not the dark faces or has that changed too?

It's so hard trying to understand it all.

[Ulysses]

30 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

There is your modern day racism there readers. It's discreetly hidden by "humour"

 

You can do better than that, SM.

 

His point wasn't racist.  His "fear of contamination" was aimed at The Sun.

 

Fair's fair, and all that. 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

 

You can do better than that, SM.

 

His point wasn't racist.  His "fear of contamination" was aimed at The Sun.

 

Fair's fair, and all that. 

I’m not so sure. I mean he hates Scotland after all, why stop there? 

[Lee_Mellon]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

I’m not so sure. I mean he hates Scotland after all, why stop there? 

 

Explain why you think Frank Black hates Scotland.

[Space Mackerel]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Polls are not the way to judge a party's form - look at elections, and you took a beating at the last one.

 

Yup, we took a such a beating right enough. 

Same logic h1b5 won the cup in 2012 then? ?

 

 

[Ulysses]

27 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

If you think the SNP will win an Indy referendum after we have left the EU, you are in for a hell of a shock.

 

People will vote to remain in the UK rather than leave it and pair up with Brussels.  Project Fear will ultimately win.

 

I can't comment with much authority about the poll relating to Scotland, except to note that it is clear that Scottish voters do not want Brexit, and really do not want an uncontrolled exit.  If a Westminster government, especially a Conservative government, ignores that then they will strengthen perceptions in Scotland that Westminster rule and the Union itself lack legitimacy. 

 

That's dangerous territory for the government. 

 

As to NI, I find the numbers a bit far-fetched.  But Sinn Féin have been banking on something like this happening since the General Election, and in particular since last December.  The Conservatives picked sides in NI, and favoured one community over the other, something not seen since the days of Thatcher, and it has really rankled.  Sinn Féin genuinely believe that this has the potential to shift public opinion in NI - not in favour of Dublin, but against London.  I don't think they're right, but they've confounded my expectations and those of others many times over the last 25 years.

[Ulysses]

9 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

I’m not so sure. I mean he hates Scotland after all, why stop there? 

 

You're wrong.  Play the ball, eh?

[Ulysses]

P.S. If you all want a Scottish nats v yoons rammy, could you please **** off and have it on another thread?

 

Thanks.

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I can't comment with much authority about the poll relating to Scotland, except to note that it is clear that Scottish voters do not want Brexit, and really do not want an uncontrolled exit.  If a Westminster government, especially a Conservative government, ignores that then they will strengthen perceptions in Scotland that Westminster rule and the Union itself lack legitimacy. 

 

That's dangerous territory for the government. 

 

As to NI, I find the numbers a bit far-fetched.  But Sinn Féin have been banking on something like this happening since the General Election, and in particular since last December.  The Conservatives picked sides in NI, and favoured one community over the other, something not seen since the days of Thatcher, and it has really rankled.  Sinn Féin genuinely believe that this has the potential to shift public opinion in NI - not in favour of Dublin, but against London.  I don't think they're right, but they've confounded my expectations and those of others many times over the last 25 years.

 

You ommited the Catholic population is due to over take the Protestant majority soon too. 

[Space Mackerel]

1 minute ago, Ulysses said:

P.S. If you all want a Scottish nats v yoons rammy, could you please **** off and have it on another thread?

 

Thanks.

 

I was just about to say

[Space Mackerel]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

You're wrong.  Play the ball, eh?

 

I doubt you’ll get infected from a S*n website. It’s a bit over dramatic. 

[Ulysses]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

I doubt you’ll get infected from a S*n website. It’s a bit over dramatic. 

 

Oh for Jaysus' sake, stop running around looking for something to get offended at.

 

He didn't say "infected", he said "contaminated".  He wouldn't be the first to say that about reading that particular media outlet - and not just that outlet.

 

This particular Paddy is satisfied that no Paddies, clever or thick, were harmed during the making of frankblack's post.

 

?

[Ulysses]

10 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

You ommited the Catholic population is due to over take the Protestant majority soon too. 

 

Very difficult to safely overtake the DUP and the Tories though, given how far to the right they're driving. 

[Space Mackerel]

 

Me? Offended? I’m in double digit thread bans now I think ? 

 

[Boab1874]

46 million votes.17 million voted to leave..The voice of the people?Under employment law you could not go on strike with that result.

[Lee_Mellon]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

P.S. If you all want a Scottish nats v yoons rammy, could you please **** off and have it on another thread?

 

Thanks.

 

OK, since now is not the time (or thread) for nats v yoons, here are my views on the Brexit, hard or otherwise, rammy. It's fairly long, and I'm not the biggest EU fan, so it may not be particularly gripping for Remainers (especially but not exclusively) but here goes:-

 

It was clear, even before the 2014 "Do you want to remove Scotland from the UK?" referendum, that the Tories in general, and Cameron in particular, wanted an EU referendum. They had been divided on the issue since Grocer Heath took us in and the divisions grew as the EU moved towards ever greater political union. The growth of UKIP from a standing start was also a factor that made it imperative for Cameron to grasp the EU nettle.

 

It seems absurd now, but after he wrung the most minor of concessions from the EU on his "For God's sake Angela, give me something or the natives could vote to leave"  European tour of 2014 / 2015  he thought that winning an EU referendum would be a skoosh, so he put it in the 2015 Tory manifesto. Maybe winning the Scottish separation referendum gave him a false sense of security...

 

Anyway, I don't think he ever believed that the UK would vote to leave but, just in case, he authorised a £9.5 million spend on a mass mailing of a booklet detailing all that was bad about leaving the EU club. In case anyone does not remember the contents of said booklet, it had nothing good to say about Leave. In short, it was a puff for Remain and why the spend was not charged to the Remain camp I will never know.

 

Up until the actual EU vote, the polls were around 52% in favour of Remain, and the liberal left establishment were probably fairly complacent about the outcome. In the end, the UK people's vote confounded them, and ever since they have been trying every means at their disposal to have the people's vote overturned.

 

I can't say what drove other Leavers to vote Leave. For my part, I've never been happy with the idea of the European superstate, which is where I believe the EU is headed. I also can't get away from the idea that the EU is run by and for Germany and France. I am a UK citizen and I believe that what is good for the UK overrides what is good for Germany and France. I also have a nagging feeling that the UK is the only country that actually pays any attention to EU law. Of course, if that is indeed true, it's nobody's fault but our own - do as they do, not as they say...

 

It is my belief that the UK has been hamstrung by having a (however soft) Remainer as Prime Minister in ultimate charge of the negotations - there will always be the suspicion that she is driving the debate towards Remain. However, the Leave candidates for PM at the time were fairly unpalatable - who in their right minds thinks that Johnson, Gove or Leadsom would have conducted the negotiations any better?

 

As for the Irish border issue, it was always clear to me that the EU were not going to compromise on their "four freedoms", and the UK could never allow a border in the Irish Sea, so the outcome was always going to be a hard border. I don't know why neither side was willing to recognise this from the outset. Politicial expediency, I suppose.

 

And where are we now? Where we could have been a year or more ago. I suppose there may be a fudged deal at the eleventh hour, but I suspect that if there is it will be worse (both for the UK and for the EU) than if we'd declared Article 50 on the day after the referendum and told them that all bets were off and we were going to WTO rules immediately after the two years were up.

 

If it does come down to "Please vote again UK people, because the last time you voted dark forces / liars / your own stupidity conspired to sway your vote the wrong way" one thing encourages me: the polls currently show around 52% in favour of Remain. And we all know what happened last time they showed that, don't we?

[frankblack]

Good post @Lee_Mellon