Hard Brexit

[Justin Z]

For what it's worth, I'm now taking European Labour Law as one of my taught courses for my LLM and I had forgotten since last I studied EU Law eight years ago that the courts try to avoid jurisdiction like it is their only job.

 

Like, the US Supreme Court definitely goes to extremes to avoid hearing cases too, leaving it to the lower courts if at all possible. The EU courts? They take it to a whole other level. Supreme Court doesn't hold a candle to it. One case I read this morning, about a woman challenging her firing and the type of contract she was on under Spanish law. Spanish Courts petitioned EU court to answer questions about various treaties--the European Convention on Human Rights, among others. Response? Sorry, that type of employment contract doesn't fall under our jurisdiction.

 

The EU not only has a tiny amount of power, it goes to ridiculous lengths to avoid exercising it on domestic matters.

 

Mini-rant about people who think we're "takin our sovrinty back from ra EU" over, regular programming resumed.

 

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Not at all, but it reveals the massive holes in the referrendum

 

Had there been an open and upfront choice then so be it

but there was not

 

had the question included such things as "in post brexit Britain all low skilled work will be made available pan-globally, and not limited to EU nations, so immigration from other parts of the world may increase"

- pretty sure that would have been unpalatable to the Farage followers- more so than the current status quo

 

though there is no way anyone would have been brave enough to say immigration would remain high even post brexit

 

Eh? Referendums such as Brexit and Independence are a binary In/Out choice.

 

This all boils down to sour grapes and the losers trying to change the rules after the result.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

9 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Not at all, but it reveals the massive holes in the referrendum

 

Had there been an open and upfront choice then so be it

but there was not

 

had the question included such things as "in post brexit Britain all low skilled work will be made available pan-globally, and not limited to EU nations, so immigration from other parts of the world may increase"

- pretty sure that would have been unpalatable to the Farage followers- more so than the current status quo

 

though there is no way anyone would have been brave enough to say immigration would remain high even post brexit

 

The problem there is by the time you'd satisfied everybody with including this that or the next text, you'd have ended up with a 200 page ballot paper.

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

17 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

My parents are staunch leave voters primarily because they feel they voted for the EEC but got a monster in the EU that they would never have voted for.

 

I think they won't be alone with that thinking, as I can't recall ever voting for the EU and everything which goes with it, outwith the economic part of course.

 

 

 

[doctor jambo]

3 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The problem there is by the time you'd satisfied everybody with including this that or the next text, you'd have ended up with a 200 page ballot paper.

 

Then so be it- something of that magnitude should have been an INFORMED choice

in  a GE there should have been the equivalent of a manifesto

currency, borders, immigration,  fishing,

it was a blind vote

at least the SNP came up with a white paper

the brexit campaign produced nothing of the sort- not even speculative

[Dawnrazor]

23 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

My parents are staunch leave voters primarily because they feel they voted for the EEC but got a monster in the EU that they would never have voted for.

I agree with them, it's grown out of all proportion. 

A less dictatorial and a more flexible EU and we'd not be in this mess, but I cannot see reform happening, too many snouts in the trough. 

[Boris]

8 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Realistically, what chance do you think the UK would have in turning the EU back to a more EEC type organisation? 

I'm all for what the EEC was by the way. 

 

I don't know, but realise that there is enough euro-scepticism around the EU nations, therefore to take the lead and ally with the likes of Sweden and Denmark, perhaps Poland. Czech Republic.

 

Essentially create a counter to the Eurozone.  But instead we moaned from the sidelines, happy to use jingoism for domestic political capital.

[Boris]

14 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Eh? Referendums such as Brexit and Independence are a binary In/Out choice.

 

This all boils down to sour grapes and the losers trying to change the rules after the result.

 

But we could be out of the EU, but remain in the single market, which is how I see the current debate in relation to "no deal"/"hard brexit".

 

So yes, it was a binary choice, but out or leave could mean many different things.  IMO, of course.

[Justin Z]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

But instead we moaned from the sidelines, happy to use jingoism for domestic political capital.

 

And those taking advantage of this brazenly broke election law, but let's not talk about that or how it ought to per se invalidate the result . . .

[Geoff the Mince]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

Oh dear, I think the divisions within the Labour party are about to get somewhat fraught.

 

Sky News have just reported that the section in Keir Starmers speech to the Labour party conference today, the part where he said that the remain in the EU option must be on the ballot paper in the event of a second vote, wasn't sanctioned with the Labour leadership, seems that he added this whole section into his speech after it had been checked and passed by whoever checks these things.

Sky said that sources very close to Jeremy Corbyn have said that the Labour leadership are less than pleased about Starmers stunt.

The Labour Party conference  is full on self loathing nation hating mode . 

 

Add in in the weird obsession with Palestine  

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

 

 

 

 

Yes there would have.  You would have seen the UKIP takeover of the Tory Party (not quite happened yet!) and a general election run along a leave EU manifesto.  No referendum, but government policy.  

 

 

 

That is one possible outcome but I think unlikely. Leavers are and always have been minority of the Parliamentary Tory Party - big enough to have been a nuisance for decades but no-where near a majority. And the Tory Party has not, as the Labour party is doing, delegated all power to its members so "leave" entryism would not work in the way Momentum entryism is in the Labour Party.

There is too much division (as the referendum shows) in the electorate for there be any chance of a single issue General Election (if there could even be such a thing) giving a majority to a Tory (or Labour) party that campaigned on Leave.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Francis Albert

[doctor jambo]

32 minutes ago, Geoff the Mince said:

The Labour Party conference  is full on self loathing nation hating mode . 

 

Add in in the weird obsession with Palestine  

Labour have a golden opportunity to hammer the Tories for a decade ,

BUT having stuck themselves with Corbyn are utterly unelectable

I could vote for Ummuna or Starmer, and there are many like me

The failure of Labour to win the last GE was appalling - yet they saw it as a victory.......

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

But we could be out of the EU, but remain in the single market, which is how I see the current debate in relation to "no deal"/"hard brexit".

 

So yes, it was a binary choice, but out or leave could mean many different things.  IMO, of course.

 

I think the single market is tied to the freedom of movement rights so is a non starter.

[Boris]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

I think the single market is tied to the freedom of movement rights so is a non starter.

 

Was that on the ballot? 

[Victorian]

It's now Labour Party policy that a 'stay in' option is not ruled out in any future ballot.    Agreed at conference.    Corbyn is always very comfortable to adopt officially sanctioned policy.     Some of his MPs still have severe trouble with the concept of democracy in their own party.

 

Other than that,    if the fools can shut their gobs and enact official policy then Labour may have timed it's Brexit gambit quite well.     Labour government soon.

[frankblack]

8 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Was that on the ballot? 

 

No, just to repeat myself you know the ballot was a binary In/Out vote.

 

We decided to leave, and to do that the single market isn't open for negotiation so we have to agree another trade deal if the EU show some flexibility for once.

 

I trust that clarifies matters.

[frankblack]

3 minutes ago, Victorian said:

It's now Labour Party policy that a 'stay in' option is not ruled out in any future ballot.    Agreed at conference.    Corbyn is always very comfortable to adopt officially sanctioned policy.     Some of his MPs still have severe trouble with the concept of democracy in their own party.

 

Other than that,    if the fools can shut their gobs and enact official policy then Labour may have timed it's Brexit gambit quite well.     Labour government soon.

 

The Labour conference looked a complete shambles on TV, and they have made themselves utterly unelectable.

 

It was clear that half the audience felt distinctly uncomfortable with Keir Stammer's speech, and I'd doubt that Labour would get them voting against Brexit.

Edited September 25, 2018 by frankblack

[Victorian]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

The Labour conference looked an utter shambles on TV, and they have made themselves utterly unelectable.

 

Labour is not unelectable.     That's a common but lazy cliche.      Labour is eminently electable if it can work together to sell it's message on salvaging a Brexit deal / halting the process,    plus it's radical social and economic policies.      It is electable but still liable to self destruction.

[The Mighty Thor]

5 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Eh? Referendums such as Brexit and Independence are a binary In/Out choice.

 

This all boils down to sour grapes and the losers trying to change the rules after the result.

How's that all going in the 27 months since 'you' won?

Yes there's a lot of disenfranchised people but that's life. What I'm concerned about is the fact that with 6 months to go we still don't know what your winners trophy looks like. That's not changing rules or altering results,  what's going to happen? Where's the plan? Where's the policy? Where's the contingency?

There's none. That's not the EU's fault, that's the conservative and unionist party's fault. 

Get ****ing on with it and stop blaming everyone and their dug for the lack of progress.

 

[The Mighty Thor]

1 hour ago, Victorian said:

 

Labour is not unelectable.     That's a common but lazy cliche. 

Labour being unelectable is as cold and hard a fact as tomorrow being Wednesday.

Edited September 25, 2018 by The Mighty Thor

[jake]

6 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The problem there is by the time you'd satisfied everybody with including this that or the next text, you'd have ended up with a 200 page ballot paper.

 

?

[Boris]

2 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

No, just to repeat myself you know the ballot was a binary In/Out vote.

 

We decided to leave, and to do that the single market isn't open for negotiation so we have to agree another trade deal if the EU show some flexibility for once.

 

I trust that clarifies matters.

 

No, it doesn't as the single market is irrelevant to a binary in/out. 

 

Is Norway in the EU? Is Switzerland? The answer is of course no. But they still have access to the single market. 

 

So we could leave the EU, like your binary yes/no, and retain access to the single market, indeed many leave campaigners said as much at the time. 

 

Unfortunately what leaving the eu means is open to interpretation and that is neither binary, nor clarified, and certainly wasn't on the ballot. 

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Every day i’m more and more staggered by Corbyn’s lack of leadership ability. There are literally three or four people in the Labour hierarchy more cut out for it than him.

[frankblack]

24 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

No, it doesn't as the single market is irrelevant to a binary in/out. 

 

Is Norway in the EU? Is Switzerland? The answer is of course no. But they still have access to the single market. 

 

So we could leave the EU, like your binary yes/no, and retain access to the single market, indeed many leave campaigners said as much at the time. 

 

Unfortunately what leaving the eu means is open to interpretation and that is neither binary, nor clarified, and certainly wasn't on the ballot. 

 

As I understand it Norway have no say on laws the EU members decide for them.  I assume the Swiss are the same.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

10 minutes ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Every day i’m more and more staggered by Corbyn’s lack of leadership ability. There are literally three or four people in the Labour hierarchy more cut out for it than him.

 

Sometimes I wonder just who is in charge of Labour, and I'm not so sure it's Jeremy Corbyn, just take the last couple of days, where the leadership say one thing and then hours later they are backtracking and saying something else, and tbh it's been like that for many many months.

Also there seems to be a huge gulf in what the Labour membership wants to that of the ordinary voters, just take for example the stance over brexit, the membership were overjoyed and gave Keir Starmer a standing ovation when he dropped his unscripted bombshell about the inclusion of an option to stay in the EU on any future ballot paper, yet compare that to the attitude and opinion of the rank and file voters on the streets of Liverpool & Birkenhead who all seem to accept that leave means leave and that the Labour leadership are not listening to ordinary voters.  

[Boris]

8 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

As I understand it Norway have no say on laws the EU members decide for them.  I assume the Swiss are the same.

Are they members of the Eu?

 

yes or no, binary question.

 

 

[frankblack]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

Are they members of the Eu?

 

yes or no, binary question.

 

 

 

That isn't a question relevant to our situation as our goal was never to get a deal where were had access to the markets but no say in the decision making of them.

 

A Norway style solution was categorically ruled out before the vote as unworkable.  The UK is a bigger fish in Europe than either of those countries.

[Boris]

2 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

That isn't a question relevant to our situation as our goal was never to get a deal where were had access to the markets but no say in the decision making of them.

 

A Norway style solution was categorically ruled out before the vote as unworkable.  The UK is a bigger fish in Europe than either of those countries.

 

Not so sure it was...and this was never on the ballot.

 

 

Farage @ 0:45 for example. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Boris

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Not so sure it was...and this was never on the ballot.

 

 

Farage @ 0:45 for example. 

 

Farage was never in the government, so whatever he says is an irrelevance.

 

I can't recall the timeline, but remaining in the single market was ruled out when it was clear that the immigration and European Court aspects couldn't be negotiated out.

 

We voted leave, so therefore we have to leave the Single Market and do a different deal to satisfy the "leave" vote - anything else would be akin to remaining, which the government did not have a mandate for.

Edited September 26, 2018 by frankblack

[Boris]

10 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Farage was never in the government, so whatever he says is an irrelevance.

 

I can't recall the timeline, but remaining in the single market was ruled out when it was clear that the immigration and European Court aspects couldn't be negotiated out.

 

We voted leave, so therefore we have to leave the Single Market and do a different deal to satisfy the "leave" vote - anything else would be akin to remaining, which the government did not have a mandate for.

I'd say the government decided that, rather than were given a mandate for it. 

 

Farage an irrelevant? Right then... 

[Francis Albert]

20 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Farage was never in the government, so whatever he says is an irrelevance.

 

I can't recall the timeline, but remaining in the single market was ruled out when it was clear that the immigration and European Court aspects couldn't be negotiated out.

 

We voted leave, so therefore we have to leave the Single Market and do a different deal to satisfy the "leave" vote - anything else would be akin to remaining, which the government did not have a mandate for.

It'll be OK as longs as they say they  "respect the vote"  to leave, the mantra of all those who have been working tirelessly since the day after the vote to overturn that vote.

 

Since the vote we've even had a General Election where both major parties pledged to respect the vote. Now Labour want another General Election, in their manifesto for which rerunning the vote will be an option, unless Jeremy's negotiating skills get the EU to agree to things they have already rejected outright.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Francis Albert

[frankblack]

14 minutes ago, Boris said:

I'd say the government decided that, rather than were given a mandate for it. 

 

Farage an irrelevant? Right then... 

 

When did he last win a seat at Westminster, let alone join the government?  He is stuck as a Euro MP because he can't get elected in Westminster.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

36 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

It'll be OK as longs as they say they  "respect the vote"  to leave, the mantra of all those who have been working tirelessly since the day after the vote to overturn that vote.

 

Since the vote we've even had a General Election where both major parties pledged to respect the vote. Now Labour want another General Election, in their manifesto for which rerunning the vote will be an option, unless Jeremy's negotiating skills get the EU to agree to things they have already rejected outright.

 

In a poll released yesterday some 71% of the people polled thought that Jeremy Corbyn would be 'incompetent' as a brexit negotiator, whilst only 22% thought he'd be any good.

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-would-be-incompetent-brexit-negotiator-poll-11508078

 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Boris]

35 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

When did he last win a seat at Westminster, let alone join the government?  He is stuck as a Euro MP because he can't get elected in Westminster.

 

WIthout Farage we wouldn't be where we are today.

[Boris]

12 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

In a poll released yesterday some 71% of the people polled thought that Jeremy Corbyn would be 'incompetent' as a brexit negotiator, whilst only 22% thought he'd be any good.

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-would-be-incompetent-brexit-negotiator-poll-11508078

 

 

 

I couldn't see it on the page, but did they also ask the same question about May?

[Seymour M Hersh]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

I couldn't see it on the page, but did they also ask the same question about May?

 

They don't need to ask we all know she's terrible! 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

 

I couldn't see it on the page, but did they also ask the same question about May?

 

Seems they did ask the same or similar question back in July and the results were.

64% didn't trust May to get a good brexit deal, whilst 22% thought she would.

30% thought that May was the best person within the Tories to lead the negotiations, whilst 44% thought it should be someone different but still within the Tory party, with 26% don't know.

https://news.sky.com/story/britain-turns-against-theresa-may-on-brexit-sky-data-poll-finds-11431288

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Boris]

38 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Seems they did ask the same or similar question back in July and the results were.

64% didn't trust May to get a good brexit deal, whilst 22% thought she would.

30% thought that May was the best person within the Tories to lead the negotiations, whilst 44% thought it should be someone different but still within the Tory party, with 26% don't know.

https://news.sky.com/story/britain-turns-against-theresa-may-on-brexit-sky-data-poll-finds-11431288

 

 

 

 

So more or less the same as Corbyn.

 

In other words we don't trust our politicians OR realisation that any negotiations are an omnishambles, therefore stay in or pull out completely. (matron!)

[frankblack]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

So more or less the same as Corbyn.

 

In other words we don't trust our politicians OR realisation that any negotiations are an omnishambles, therefore stay in or pull out completely. (matron!)

 

You could say exactly the same about the SNP, with independence who would not only have to negotiate to get entry into the EU from a post-Brexit UK but negotiate with the rest of the UK to trade with them and beg to use their currency etc.

Edited September 26, 2018 by frankblack

[Unknown user]

11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You could say exactly the same about the SNP, with independence who would not only have to negotiate to get entry into the EU from a post-Brexit UK but negotiate with the rest of the UK to trade with them and beg to use their currency etc.

The snp don't own independence and have no mandate to negotiate on Scotland's behalf. Negotiations would have to be cross party. 

 

No begging is required to use a currency by the way

[Francis Albert]

I see Merkel is facing a revolt from her party and that this may spell the end of her role as "leader of the free world" as Remainers have tagged her.

[frankblack]

10 minutes ago, Smithee said:

The snp don't own independence and have no mandate to negotiate on Scotland's behalf. Negotiations would have to be cross party. 

 

No begging is required to use a currency by the way

 

The currency issue is a major issue - do people need Euros or pounds to travel between England and Scotland?  Would the Bank of England control interest rates, and would their governance be appropriate for a separate Scottish economy?

[Unknown user]

8 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The currency issue is a major issue - do people need Euros or pounds to travel between England and Scotland?  Would the Bank of England control interest rates, and would their governance be appropriate for a separate Scottish economy?

Short term we'd be best using the pound IMO until the relevant cross party body comes up with a good plan for an alternative, be it a Scottish currency backed by our economy, the euro due to joining the EU or something else.

 

It's a good question but it's a hurdle to be worked out, not a body blow to the issue of being able to vote your own government in rather than being landed with Westminster. 

 

[Francis Albert]

I see that some hints are being reported as coming from inside the EU and from other European leaders that some "mini-deals" relating to the transition if there is a no deal outcome may be possible.

 

Project Fear's "cliff edge" may fall short of Beachy Head in scale.

[Boris]

28 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I see that some hints are being reported as coming from inside the EU and from other European leaders that some "mini-deals" relating to the transition if there is a no deal outcome may be possible.

 

Project Fear's "cliff edge" may fall short of Beachy Head in scale.

 

Or perhaps pragmatism rules the day?

 

Note the "no deal outcome" as part of all this.  Whoopee...

[Boris]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

You could say exactly the same about the SNP, with independence who would not only have to negotiate to get entry into the EU from a post-Brexit UK but negotiate with the rest of the UK to trade with them and beg to use their currency etc.

 

Em, I don't know.  I'd need to se the results of a poll of what people thought about who would do a good job negotiating Scottish Independence.

 

Anytime soon, then the UK would be easy to deal with trade wise.  WTO rules!

 

Beg to use their currency?  I doubt it.  Why so much bitterness?

[JamboX2]

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Em, I don't know.  I'd need to se the results of a poll of what people thought about who would do a good job negotiating Scottish Independence.

 

Anytime soon, then the UK would be easy to deal with trade wise.  WTO rules!

 

Can't wait to pay a 20% tariff on most goods coming up and I await our supply industries to England having a trade barrier of 20% going down.

 

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Beg to use their currency?  I doubt it.  Why so much bitterness?

 

The UK position is no formal currency union. Can't see that changing soon.

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Can't wait to pay a 20% tariff on most goods coming up and I await our supply industries to England having a trade barrier of 20% going down.

 

Pesky UK with its Brexit WTO fallback!  Despite the Uk saying it would be open for business etc etc etc.  We, and only we would get stung though?

 

6 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

 

The UK position is no formal currency union. Can't see that changing soon.

 

As has been mentioned, we don't need permission to us the pound.  Admittedly not ideal, but...

[Ulysses]

8 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Or perhaps pragmatism rules the day?

 

Note the "no deal outcome" as part of all this.  Whoopee...

 

Unless it's sourced, don't take it seriously, Boris.  You know the score.

 

There were stories in the UK papers a few weeks ago that Barnier was under pressure from some EU 27 national governments.  Not one media source in the EU 27 carried any story like that; they didn't even bother carrying or reporting on the UK rags' coverage.

 

We were led to believe that the Visegrád countries were putting pressure on Brussels to make concessions to the UK on Chequers, particularly the Hungarians and the Poles.  When May screwed up in Salzburg last week there wasn't as much as a squeak to be heard from any of those countries.

[Beast Boy]

Hard Brexit... Soft Brexit...

 

Can the non-affluent simpletons living in the UK please wake up at some point, and stop voting for people who would put them all in a blender and feed the resulting slop to their kids? ?

 

FFS! Brexit is not about ‘the people’, it’s about Reese Mogg and cronies avoiding the EU offshore tax avoidance schemes getting shut down...

 

idiots! ????