Hard Brexit

[frankblack]

17 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Seen an excerpt on TV this morning of a speech David Lammy MP gave at a rally yesterday, in which he said that whatever the options on the ballot paper were, there had to be an option to stay in the EU, and he's not the only one saying this, as I've heard many MP's and campaigners say the same or similar things, yet this so called 'people's vote' nonsense started life supposing to be about voting for or rejecting the deal, not about staying in the EU, but there is little surprise that's it's morphed into more about staying in the EU, which was the intention of these campaigners all along.

 

Rachel Johnson (Boris' sister) who is as staunch pro-EU as you'll get, launched a 'Woman's People's Vote' campaign a month or so ago, and she was interviewed on Sky News by Adam Boulton about it and he asked her what would be the questions she'd want to see on the ballot paper, she replied thus.

 

1. To accept the deal on the table.

2. To reject the deal and go back and re-negotiate it.

3. Stay in the EU.

 

Boulton asked her about question 2, and what if you go back to the EU and they say, 'that's the deal on offer take it or leave it' he said what do you do then, she replied along the lines of 'well we'd just stay in the EU then if we couldn't renegotiate the deal', Boulton pointed out that that's not what is on the ballot paper and it's not what people would have voted for because people would have voted to go back and renegotiate, not stay in the EU, her reply to that, total silence, he then went on asked her about question 1 and if she'd accept the result if the British public voted to accept the deal and thus leave the EU anyway, her reply to that was to say something like 'It would depend upon the percentage that they won by', this time it was Boultion who just stared at her but the look on his face said it all.

 

As you say the remoaners want an option to stay in the EU on the ballot paper, well imo if there ever was a new vote about this it should be a straight yes or no to accept the deal (if there is a deal that is) and have nothing to do about staying in the EU, as the British public have been asked that question already, but if there was an option to stay in the EU there then has to also be an option to still leave the EU regardless, but then as I've said before this whole second referendum thing opens up one almightly can of worms.

 

Good post.

 

The willful disregard for democracy is what I find frustrating about this whole process.  I do have a bit of sympathy with the view that the final deal should be voted on in case it is a bad deal for the UK, but I think telling the EU that we would have such a vote would determine the EU negotiating strategy to ensure we get a bad deal.  The no deal exit has to be one of our options on the table or the EU would walk over us.

[Francis Albert]

36 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Good post.

 

The willful disregard for democracy is what I find frustrating about this whole process.  I do have a bit of sympathy with the view that the final deal should be voted on in case it is a bad deal for the UK, but I think telling the EU that we would have such a vote would determine the EU negotiating strategy to ensure we get a bad deal.  The no deal exit has to be one of our options on the table or the EU would walk over us.

Correct. I was hopelessly naïve in complaining that no-one including the campaigners and demonstrators were  defining the question to be posed in this second "Peoples Vote". The strategy is clear. First get acceptance of the principle of having a second vote then argue that of course the option that received 48% of the vote last time must be included.

Prediction:; a vote between (1) leaving with no deal or as the case may be a bad deal (equivalent to Brexit in name only) and (2) remaining as we were. Outcome - what the Remainers have been pushing for and planning for since the 2016 vote - Remain. While of course continuing to  talk of "respecting" the outcome of the 2016 referendum.

Further prediction: growth of hard right wing proto-fascist parties in the UK on the Continental lines (if you think theTories are hard right wing proto-fascists you ain't seen nothing yet), so we face a choice between a Tory Party in coalition with or influenced by them or the hard left proto-communist Corbynista Labour.

Law of Unintended (by some at least) Consequences writ large.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Francis Albert

[frankblack]

7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Correct. I was hopelessly naïve in complaining that no-one including the campaigners and demonstrators were  defining the question to be posed in this second "Peoples Vote". The strategy is clear. First get acceptance of the principle of having a second vote then argue that of course the option that received 48% of the vote last time must be included.

Prediction:; a vote between (1) leaving with no deal or as the case may be a bad deal (equivalent to Brexit in name only) and (2) remaining as we were. Outcome - what the Remainers have been pushing for and planning for since the 2016 vote - Remain. While of course continuing to  talk of "respecting" the outcome of the 2016 referendum.

Further prediction: growth of hard right wing proto-fascist parties in the UK on the Continental lines (if you think theTories are hard right wing proto-fascists you ain't seen nothing yet), so we face a choice between a Tory Party in coalition with or influenced by them or the hard left proto-communist Corbynista Labour.

Law of Unintended (by some at least) Consequences writ large.

 

 

 

Jeremy Corbyn has let himself down badly from the Labour viewpoint.  Instead of being strong and standing up for democracy he is willing to delegate the decision making to the party members and wash his hands of it.

 

The net result of that will be that Pro-Leave Labour voters will desert their vote in significant numbers and the tories get back in again at the next general election.

[Boris]

10 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

the hard left proto-communist Corbynista Labour.

 

 

 

 

[Boris]

Just now, frankblack said:

 

Jeremy Corbyn has let himself down badly from the Labour viewpoint.  Instead of being strong and standing up for democracy he is willing to delegate the decision making to the party members and wash his hands of it.

 

The net result of that will be that Pro-Leave Labour voters will desert their vote in significant numbers and the tories get back in again at the next general election.

 

So Corbyn not quite your standard communist dictator then?  Turning democratic centralism on its head!

 

Imagine basing policy on what the membership wants.  Bizarre...

[Jambo-Jimbo]

35 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Good post.

 

The willful disregard for democracy is what I find frustrating about this whole process.  I do have a bit of sympathy with the view that the final deal should be voted on in case it is a bad deal for the UK, but I think telling the EU that we would have such a vote would determine the EU negotiating strategy to ensure we get a bad deal.  The no deal exit has to be one of our options on the table or the EU would walk over us.

 

Absolutely and it wouldn't have mattered which political party was doing the negotiating because practically from day one the UK's negotiators have had one hand tied behind their backs, and this came about with such things as court cases, the deep political divisions between and within the Tories & Labour over pro-remain & pro-leave MP's, well the EU saw all of this, saw that even within the negotiators there were divisions and also you have to remember the EU are past masters at re-running referenda until they get the result that they want, so all the EU would have had to do is, well exactly what they have done over the last 2 years and reject every plan the UK came up with and sit back and watch as the divisions in Britain grow wider and wider, and then at some point somebody would suggest having a 'people's vote' which must have been like manna from heaven as far as the EU were concerned.

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

29 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Correct. I was hopelessly naïve in complaining that no-one including the campaigners and demonstrators were  defining the question to be posed in this second "Peoples Vote". The strategy is clear. First get acceptance of the principle of having a second vote then argue that of course the option that received 48% of the vote last time must be included.

Prediction:; a vote between (1) leaving with no deal or as the case may be a bad deal (equivalent to Brexit in name only) and (2) remaining as we were. Outcome - what the Remainers have been pushing for and planning for since the 2016 vote - Remain. While of course continuing to  talk of "respecting" the outcome of the 2016 referendum.

Further prediction: growth of hard right wing proto-fascist parties in the UK on the Continental lines (if you think theTories are hard right wing proto-fascists you ain't seen nothing yet), so we face a choice between a Tory Party in coalition with or influenced by them or the hard left proto-communist Corbynista Labour.

Law of Unintended (by some at least) Consequences writ large.

 

 

 

Unfortunately that is one of the 'worms' which will crawl out of that can, which I've been on about.

 

Edit: The rise of far-right parties is the worm I'm on about.

Edited September 24, 2018 by Jambo-Jimbo

[Francis Albert]

16 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

 

Have you read the agreed wording of the conference motion on the issue of a second EU vote?

By comparison the well loved old Clause 4 was almost centre-right and had the benefit also of being written clearly in a few words to the point and  in good English.

Rather than being put together by a huge committee the views of every member of which had to be accommodated somehow, however relevant to the point of the resolution.

[Francis Albert]

15 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So Corbyn not quite your standard communist dictator then?  Turning democratic centralism on its head!

 

Imagine basing policy on what the membership wants.  Bizarre...

The usual path to power in a democracy is to base policy on what the wider electorate might want.

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Absolutely and it wouldn't have mattered which political party was doing the negotiating because practically from day one the UK's negotiators have had one hand tied behind their backs, and this came about with such things as court cases, the deep political divisions between and within the Tories & Labour over pro-remain & pro-leave MP's, well the EU saw all of this, saw that even within the negotiators there were divisions and also you have to remember the EU are past masters at re-running referenda until they get the result that they want, so all the EU would have had to do is, well exactly what they have done over the last 2 years and reject every plan the UK came up with and sit back and watch as the divisions in Britain grow wider and wider, and then at some point somebody would suggest having a 'people's vote' which must have been like manna from heaven as far as the EU were concerned.

 

 

Agree and disagree with you.

 

Negotiation could have been very swift indeed - we are leaving the EU, hello EFTA/EEA.

 

There, referendum vote upheld, HMG has done what the referendum asked i.e. the UK leaves the EU.

 

Except this government, and it's previous cabinet members, have decided to interpret what the referendum result means.  If they had the balls they would simply walk away and go to WTO, again, like the EEA option, simple and no mucking about.

 

What we now have is a fudge with the UK trying to be billy big baws, when it is in fact a eunoch. 

 

Also, I'm not really sure what the UK are expecting the EU to bend on, or why they should?  The four freedoms are integral to the single market and that's not going to change.  The UK going back on it's previous agreement re the Irish border is a bit off as well.  The UK govt has vacillated over this for 2 years now.  Shoddy, to say the least.

 

 

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Francis Albert said:

The usual path to power in a democracy is to base policy on what the wider electorate might want.

 

Uh huh...and this differs how, exactly?

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

Have you read the agreed wording of the conference motion on the issue of a second EU vote?

By comparison the well loved old Clause 4 was almost centre-right and had the benefit also of being written clearly in a few words to the point and  in good English.

Rather than being put together by a huge committee the views of every member of which had to be accommodated somehow, however relevant to the point of the resolution.

 

No, I was laughing at your description of "hard left proto-communist Corbynista Labour."

[Francis Albert]

17 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So Corbyn not quite your standard communist dictator then?  Turning democratic centralism on its head!

 

Imagine basing policy on what the membership wants.  Bizarre...

The typical Communist Dictator ran the Party with strict control and an unwillingness to tolerate dissension and ensuring that it was filled with his supporters and that any potential opponents or dissenting voices were kicked out or sidelined by a form of deselection which went further admittedly than the Corbynistas have yet attempted. 

 

[Francis Albert]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Uh huh...and this differs how, exactly?

I think you will find out.

[frankblack]

28 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So Corbyn not quite your standard communist dictator then?  Turning democratic centralism on its head!

 

Imagine basing policy on what the membership wants.  Bizarre...

 

Or being a weak-willed leader, not unlike Theresa May, who caves in to media pressure rather than their own voters.

 

There were probably more pro-Leave Labour voters than Tory Leave voters.  Talk about shooting yourself in both feet...

Edited September 24, 2018 by frankblack

[Boris]

7 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The typical Communist Dictator ran the Party with strict control and an unwillingness to tolerate dissension and ensuring that it was filled with his supporters and that any potential opponents or dissenting voices were kicked out or sidelined by a form of deselection which went further admittedly than the Corbynistas have yet attempted. 

 

 

Right, so that's why the move for a second referendum has come about?  Not something the leadership seem over enamoured with, but party activists are.

 

Iron grip there, Jezza!

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

I think you will find out.

 

So grassroots of the party want to influence policy, but shouldn't really as it's not their place?

 

That's pretty much what you are saying.

[Boris]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Or being a weak-willed leader, not unlike Theresa May, who caves in to media pressure rather than their own voters.

 

There were probably more pro-Leave Labour voters than Tory Leave voters.  Talk about shooting yourself in both feet...

 

?????

 

Media pressure?  I must have missed the "let's have a second referendum" media campaign.

[Boris]

4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

There were probably more pro-Leave Labour voters than Tory Leave voters.  Talk about shooting yourself in both feet...

 

All the more reason for the Labour Party to do something about this shambles then?  Like a vote on the deal?

 

Or should those pro-leave Labour voters trust the Tories?

[frankblack]

19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

?????

 

Media pressure?  I must have missed the "let's have a second referendum" media campaign.

 

I take it you don't watch the news or read the papers? The empty vessels that are rattling on outside the conference trying to force a remain vote through the back-door are getting all the media attention, aided by Corbyn who is looking really weak as a leader, willing to abdicate leadership responsibility to get votes at the party conference.

 

17 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

All the more reason for the Labour Party to do something about this shambles then?  Like a vote on the deal?

 

Or should those pro-leave Labour voters trust the Tories?

 

The problem the Labour leave voters have is that their voice is being ignored, so some may well see the tories as representing their views.  Len McLusky (sp?) said as much on news bulletins on the BBC yesterday.

Edited September 24, 2018 by frankblack

[Jambo-Jimbo]

27 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Agree and disagree with you.

 

Negotiation could have been very swift indeed - we are leaving the EU, hello EFTA/EEA.

 

There, referendum vote upheld, HMG has done what the referendum asked i.e. the UK leaves the EU.

 

Except this government, and it's previous cabinet members, have decided to interpret what the referendum result means.  If they had the balls they would simply walk away and go to WTO, again, like the EEA option, simple and no mucking about.

 

What we now have is a fudge with the UK trying to be billy big baws, when it is in fact a eunoch. 

 

Also, I'm not really sure what the UK are expecting the EU to bend on, or why they should?  The four freedoms are integral to the single market and that's not going to change.  The UK going back on it's previous agreement re the Irish border is a bit off as well.  The UK govt has vacillated over this for 2 years now.  Shoddy, to say the least.

 

 

 

There's not much of what you say that I don't agree with, we should have been out of the EU long before now, as it was clear that the EU were never going to compromise their 4 freedoms, perhaps if we had had a pro-leave Prime Minister there wouldn't have been all this fluffing around trying to find ways to stay in.

[argyjambo]

I'm of the view that, if there is another referendum on the remain/ leave question, why then should the electorate ever again respect the result of any election either general or local, ever again. I accept that the deal which is negotiated should be subject to parliamentary scrutiny & vote, however should the Brexit decision be reversed or watered down to the extent it's  rendered meaningless, I would not be surprised to see serious violence/anarchy on our streets and cities.

The French have a reputation for this, and their politicians recognise this. Ours should have similar concerns.

Edited September 24, 2018 by argyjambo

[Francis Albert]

43 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

So grassroots of the party want to influence policy, but shouldn't really as it's not their place?

 

That's pretty much what you are saying.

Not at all. And to be fair to Corbyn and his closest allies they have been perfectly clear all along that their objective is  to give power to and represent the views of the party members. Corbyn is I think by his very nature not a leader, not in the sense that is normally applied to political and other leaders. As for example his handling of the anti-Semitic issue has shown. They have obviously sought actively to recruit members who share their views and have sought to as far as possible eliminate the voice of others including sitting MPs who do not share the resulting majority views.

How far this succeeds with the more important constituency - the electorate as whole, we shall see.

[Francis Albert]

I see the Labour NEC has agreed to reduce the required vote to deselect a sitting MP from 50% of constituency members and affiliated unions to 33%. The purge will take care of Ian Murray (once the only Labour MP in Scotland) and his like  

[Boris]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

I take it you don't watch the news or read the papers? The empty vessels that are rattling on outside the conference trying to force a remain vote through the back-door are getting all the media attention, aided by Corbyn who is looking really weak as a leader, willing to abdicate leadership responsibility to get votes at the party conference.

 

Big difference to reporting on a conference and actually advocating one via editorials etc.   That would be media pressure.  IMO.

 

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

The problem the Labour leave voters have is that their voice is being ignored, so some may well see the tories as representing their views.  Len McLusky (sp?) said as much on news bulletins on the BBC yesterday.

 

Is it?  Why then are the Labour Party membership so keen to differ?  Don't get me wrong, I can see where Mcluskey is coming from.  But if you are a Labour Leave voter and feel strongly, why not join the party?

[Francis Albert]

23 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Big difference to reporting on a conference and actually advocating one via editorials etc.   That would be media pressure.  IMO.

 

 

Is it?  Why then are the Labour Party membership so keen to differ?  Don't get me wrong, I can see where Mcluskey is coming from.  But if you are a Labour Leave voter and feel strongly, why not join the party?

The Observer (appealing particularly to MPs) for one has devoted a large chunk of its op-ed pages and the whole of its editorial to a demand for a second vote - and specifically one where the choice is between either the deal or no deal as the case may be and Remain. I have not see an Independent editorial but it is clear from its reporting that that is what is angling for. And no journalist in any of the media seems to interested in flushing out what the  "Peoples Vote" campaigners are after by asking the obvious question of what the question will be.

 

The entryist policy of Momentum, like that of Militant before it, rests on the safe assumption that most ordinary voters have no interest in becoming "activists" in any party. And who, from the briefest sight and sound of any of the Party Conference scenes could  possibly blame them?

Edited September 24, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

7 hours ago, Boris said:

 

So Corbyn not quite your standard communist dictator then?  Turning democratic centralism on its head!

 

Imagine basing policy on what the membership wants.  Bizarre...

 

Imagine basing policy on what the membership wants, instead of being strong and standing up for democracy.

 

[John Findlay]

8 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Imagine basing policy on what the membership wants, instead of being strong and standing up for democracy.

 

Bit like FOH goverance.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

What is Labour's position on 'brexit'? 

Does anybody know, do Labour even know, as It seems to change daily depending on what direction the wind is blowing on that particular day or even hour.

 

Yesterday John McDonnell is telling everybody that in the event of a second referendum, it would be a vote based upon the deal or no deal and would not include an option to stay in the EU.

Today Keir Starmer is saying everything is on the table including an option to stay in, but we'd have to see what the circumstances were at the time (classic fudged answer).

 

Seen Starmer give an interview on both the BBC & Sky News and in both interviews I was left with the distinct impression that what Starmer was really saying was something like this.

'Don't ask me mate, we are as divided as the Tories are and just like the Tories we haven't got a clue either, we're just making this up as we go along and as long as we keep critising the Tories the public might not notice that we're just blagging it all as well'

 

British politics and politicians are a fecking joke nowadays.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

4 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

What is Labour's position on 'brexit'? 

Does anybody know, do Labour even know, as It seems to change daily depending on what direction the wind is blowing on that particular day or even hour.

 

Yesterday John McDonnell is telling everybody that in the event of a second referendum, it would be a vote based upon the deal or no deal and would not include an option to stay in the EU.

Today Keir Starmer is saying everything is on the table including an option to stay in, but we'd have to see what the circumstances were at the time (classic fudged answer).

 

Seen Starmer give an interview on both the BBC & Sky News and in both interviews I was left with the distinct impression that what Starmer was really saying was something like this.

'Don't ask me mate, we are as divided as the Tories are and just like the Tories we haven't got a clue either, we're just making this up as we go along and as long as we keep critising the Tories the public might not notice that we're just blagging it all as well'

 

British politics and politicians are a fecking joke nowadays.

 

I’ve always voted at elections.

Some people never bother voting which is pretty sad.

The way things are going in this country I can see more people not voting.

The politicians couldn’t run a bath.

As you say a fecking joke.

[Francis Albert]

Laura Kuenssberg on the sequence of answers to her question (at last) of what the vote would be on.

McDonnell - the referendum result has to be respected and the vote should be on the terms of the deal

Watson - there is "an inevitable logic" in the vote including the remain option or in/out

McDonnell - all options remain on the table.

And Starmer is sure that Labour MPs will be "ordered to vote against" any Tory deal, which would kill off any chance of a deal, leaving not much option about what the question in a second referendum would be.

 

That clears things up.

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Jambo-Jimbo]

A Sky News data poll this morning shows that.

Only 25% of those asked thought that Labour would be able to negotiate a deal with the EU, whilst a whooping 68% thought Labour wouldn't be able to negotiate a deal.

 

What is interesting in this poll, is that Labour have been pushing the notion that it's time for the Tories to move over and let Labour do it instead as Labour would do a better job.

If this poll is a true representation of the British public, then it would seem that the public don't share Labour's optimism.

 

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I think their strategy is to force an election.

 

They will vote against the government on any brexit deal.  Therefore, to get to that position they will need enough Tory rebels to vote with them and basically be voting for a no deal!

 

What they going to do to do align themselves with bojo and likes of Reece Mogg to bring the govt down?!?! That might interesting see bojo and jezza on same platform lol.  

 

I also just can’t  see a general election being forced when we’re 6months away from exit. Whilst, it’s a hell of assumption the EU will give more time as opposed to a no deal. 

 

Essentially they hope they can get into power and negotiate a better deal. Though I actually think jezza and his lot would be even worse than current lot negotiating!!!

 

I don’t think the labour leadership give a **** about brexit. I think they see opportunity to get into power whilst getting out of a club they ain’t fond off.

I think that's a pretty fair summary.

 

Their test on any proposed deal is whether it satisfies 6 conditions most of which have been rejected outright by the EU.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I’ve always voted at elections.

Some people never bother voting which is pretty sad.

The way things are going in this country I can see more people not voting.

The politicians couldn’t run a bath.

As you say a fecking joke.

 

I've always voted as well, however if the largest democratic vote in this country's history was to be overturned and 'brexit' was stopped, then I'd have to reconsider whether there was any point in voting in the future, and I wonder how many of the other 17m who voted for 'brexit' would feel the same.

 

We hear about driving the economy off the cliff, well imo it's democracy that's being driven off the cliff and unlike the economy which would recover in time, once a country turns it's back on democracy then it would be very difficult to re-install the public's trust in the democratic process.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

15 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I think their strategy is to force an election.

 

They will vote against the government on any brexit deal.  Therefore, to get to that position they will need enough Tory rebels to vote with them and basically be voting for a no deal!

 

What they going to do to do align themselves with bojo and likes of Reece Mogg to bring the govt down?!?! That might interesting see bojo and jezza on same platform lol.  

 

I also just can’t  see a general election being forced when we’re 6months away from exit. Whilst, it’s a hell of assumption the EU will give more time as opposed to a no deal. 

 

Essentially they hope they can get into power and negotiate a better deal. Though I actually think jezza and his lot would be even worse than current lot negotiating!!!

 

I don’t think the labour leadership give a **** about brexit. I think they see opportunity to get into power whilst getting out of a club they ain’t fond off.

 

Spot on and if they can fudge answering the questions for as long as they can they are hoping to fool enough of the public for long enough for them to get into power.

[Boris]

1 hour ago, Lord BJ said:

 

I don’t think the labour leadership give a **** about brexit. I think they see opportunity to get into power whilst getting out of a club they ain’t fond off.

 

Yip, I also think you are close to the mark there.

 

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I've always voted as well, however if the largest democratic vote in this country's history was to be overturned and 'brexit' was stopped, then I'd have to reconsider whether there was any point in voting in the future, and I wonder how many of the other 17m who voted for 'brexit' would feel the same.

 

We hear about driving the economy off the cliff, well imo it's democracy that's being driven off the cliff and unlike the economy which would recover in time, once a country turns it's back on democracy then it would be very difficult to re-install the public's trust in the democratic process.

 

If Brexit were to be overturned by another referendum, doesn't that mean that is the "will of the people"?  And if Brexit truly is the will of the people, then they will win again.

 

If we are to drive off a cliff, better that we have the peoples confirmation on it, rather than due to the vanity of a bunch of spivs.

[Seymour M Hersh]

10 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yip, I also think you are close to the mark there.

 

 

If Brexit were to be overturned by another referendum, doesn't that mean that is the "will of the people"?  And if Brexit truly is the will of the people, then they will win again.

 

If we are to drive off a cliff, better that we have the peoples confirmation on it, rather than due to the vanity of a bunch of spivs.

 

Nobody will be driving off a cliff Boris. I love the anti-democratic desire you have for a 2nd referendum. How very EU of you. Keep holding them until the decision we (the EU) happens. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

10 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Yip, I also think you are close to the mark there.

 

 

If Brexit were to be overturned by another referendum, doesn't that mean that is the "will of the people"?  And if Brexit truly is the will of the people, then they will win again.

 

If we are to drive off a cliff, better that we have the peoples confirmation on it, rather than due to the vanity of a bunch of spivs.

 

The 'will of the people' changes from day to day, month to month, year to year, the EU referendum result was the 'will of the people' on that day, however to ignore it and re-run it again is complete folly as we'd end up having General Elections every 6 months or every year because people will have changed their minds or be unhappy with the current government and demand a another vote because the 'will of the people' had changed from the year before, it would be a complete shambles and no result of any election/vote/referendum on a local or national level would be safe from having to be re-run because the 'will of the people' had changed.

[Francis Albert]

If the vote had gone the other way there would have been no squeals of "what about the 48%?"  And however the will of the people might subsequently have changed there would have been no rerun of the vote in my lifetime.

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

 

Yip, I also think you are close to the mark there.

 

 

If Brexit were to be overturned by another referendum, doesn't that mean that is the "will of the people"?  And if Brexit truly is the will of the people, then they will win again.

 

If we are to drive off a cliff, better that we have the peoples confirmation on it, rather than due to the vanity of a bunch of spivs.

The vote should never have been held in the first place.

 

HOWEVER - wonder how the brexiteers feel now that instead of having loads of white Europeans picking fruit, gutting fish and working in hospitality, you will now have a million or so Africans and Asians coming in to fill the gap?

Spewing would be my guess

[frankblack]

18 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

The vote should never have been held in the first place.

 

HOWEVER - wonder how the brexiteers feel now that instead of having loads of white Europeans picking fruit, gutting fish and working in hospitality, you will now have a million or so Africans and Asians coming in to fill the gap?

Spewing would be my guess

 

I said above that I'd be all for a points based immigration system, so we get people in the sectors that need it.  It doesn't matter to me what colour or race people are - it is all down to whether they are good enough for the job.

 

I bet you thought all "Brexiteers" are racists, though, so sorry to break your stereotype.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I said above that I'd be all for a points based immigration system, so we get people in the sectors that need it.  It doesn't matter to me what colour or race people are - it is all down to whether they are good enough for the job.

 

I bet you thought all "Brexiteers" are racists, though, so sorry to break your stereotype.

 

Same here, immigration didn't come into any of the reasons why I voted to leave, and that was because the UK needs immigration to fulfill it's needs.

Of course it's easy to just pigeon hole people into categories which suits some folks perceptions, interpretations & beliefs.

[Ron Burgundy]

15 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

I said above that I'd be all for a points based immigration system, so we get people in the sectors that need it.  It doesn't matter to me what colour or race people are - it is all down to whether they are good enough for the job.

 

I bet you thought all "Brexiteers" are racists, though, so sorry to break your stereotype.

Remoaners automatically switch to default setting when they hear someone voted to leave.

[Boris]

2 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Nobody will be driving off a cliff Boris. I love the anti-democratic desire you have for a 2nd referendum. How very EU of you. Keep holding them until the decision we (the EU) happens. 

 

Did I say we should have a second referendum?  Merely riffing on the "will of the people" logic used by Brexiteers.

 

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The 'will of the people' changes from day to day, month to month, year to year, the EU referendum result was the 'will of the people' on that day, however to ignore it and re-run it again is complete folly as we'd end up having General Elections every 6 months or every year because people will have changed their minds or be unhappy with the current government and demand a another vote because the 'will of the people' had changed from the year before, it would be a complete shambles and no result of any election/vote/referendum on a local or national level would be safe from having to be re-run because the 'will of the people' had changed.

 

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

If the vote had gone the other way there would have been no squeals of "what about the 48%?"  And however the will of the people might subsequently have changed there would have been no rerun of the vote in my lifetime.

 

Yes there would have.  You would have seen the UKIP takeover of the Tory Party (not quite happened yet!) and a general election run along a leave EU manifesto.  No referendum, but government policy.  

 

34 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Same here, immigration didn't come into any of the reasons why I voted to leave, and that was because the UK needs immigration to fulfill it's needs.

Of course it's easy to just pigeon hole people into categories which suits some folks perceptions, interpretations & beliefs.

 

So EEA/EFTA would suit you?  Would suit me.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Oh dear, I think the divisions within the Labour party are about to get somewhat fraught.

 

Sky News have just reported that the section in Keir Starmers speech to the Labour party conference today, the part where he said that the remain in the EU option must be on the ballot paper in the event of a second vote, wasn't sanctioned with the Labour leadership, seems that he added this whole section into his speech after it had been checked and passed by whoever checks these things.

Sky said that sources very close to Jeremy Corbyn have said that the Labour leadership are less than pleased about Starmers stunt.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

6 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Did I say we should have a second referendum?  Merely riffing on the "will of the people" logic used by Brexiteers.

 

 

 

Yes there would have.  You would have seen the UKIP takeover of the Tory Party (not quite happened yet!) and a general election run along a leave EU manifesto.  No referendum, but government policy.  

 

 

So EEA/EFTA would suit you?  Would suit me.

 

There was nothing wrong with the old EEC and we wouldn't be leaving now if it had stayed just an economic community.

 

[Boris]

16 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

There was nothing wrong with the old EEC and we wouldn't be leaving now if it had stayed just an economic community.

 

 

Don't disagree with you at all.  The SIngle Market was Mrs T's idea! (I'm sure I read that recently...)

 

I just wish we had stayed in for now, fought our corner and tried to mould opinion within the EU to something more akin to that.

[Dawnrazor]

5 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

 

 

I just wish we had stayed in for now, fought our corner and tried to mould opinion within the EU to something more akin to that.

Realistically, what chance do you think the UK would have in turning the EU back to a more EEC type organisation? 

I'm all for what the EEC was by the way. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Dawnrazor

[frankblack]

1 minute ago, Dawnrazor said:

Realistically, what chance do you think the UK would have in turning the EU back to a more EEC type organisation? 

I'm all for what the EEC was by the way. 

 

My parents are staunch leave voters primarily because they feel they voted for the EEC but got a monster in the EU that they would never have voted for.

[doctor jambo]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Same here, immigration didn't come into any of the reasons why I voted to leave, and that was because the UK needs immigration to fulfill it's needs.

Of course it's easy to just pigeon hole people into categories which suits some folks perceptions, interpretations & beliefs.

Not at all, but it reveals the massive holes in the referrendum

 

Had there been an open and upfront choice then so be it

but there was not

 

had the question included such things as "in post brexit Britain all low skilled work will be made available pan-globally, and not limited to EU nations, so immigration from other parts of the world may increase"

- pretty sure that would have been unpalatable to the Farage followers- more so than the current status quo

 

though there is no way anyone would have been brave enough to say immigration would remain high even post brexit