Hard Brexit

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

So government authorities are acting illegally and out with the law? I'm sorry but that's a very big statement. 

 

 

No point in stating the obvious to the Trumpistas.  They'll just say something else and pretend that's what they meant all along.  Like, for example, blaming the private sector and conflating the behaviour of private commercial entities with the legal position.

 

Oops.

 

 

[jake]

34 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Elections are every 5 years. Not whenever you want to change it. What if by then it's too late?

 

No more social chapter protections...

What if jambo.

What if we vote a progressive party who reject austerity .

If we vote for a party which outlaws zero hours.

What if it's not too late but the beginning of something better.

 

Unlikely mate  i know and I won't go round in circles .

We both have our views.

Just don't accept the view that the EU protects working people.

It doesn't.

It protects the status quo.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

So border forces are acting illegally and ultra vires then? And this isn't breaking news?

 

The first I heard about this was when Ulysses said that you don't legally need a passport to travel between Ireland & the UK, so how would I know if the border forces are acting illegally, why don't you tell them and see how far you get on your next flight.

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, Francis Albert said:

While your sweet innocence at the thought that government authorities are incapable of breaking the law is touching, I have not (nor I think has anyone else) in this instance accused any government or anyone else of breaking the law.

What people have pointed out is that though there is no legal requirement as far as the government and its treaties are concerned,  in practice air travellers between the UK and Ireland, and indeed in my experience flying internally within the UK, are required  to show a passport or other photo id in the airport or at the departure gate or both. You can stand your ground and argue and good luck with that. However I am not sure that there is any law that says private organisations such as airlines and airports may not, as part of their own security arrangements and to confirm that the passenger is who they say they are, can't make this a condition.

 

 

Whilst your condescending tone is endearing, by saying that not all government agencies adhere to or bend the rules that is indeed what you are saying. Even if it is a private provider operating a state service it is vicariously the state... 

 

 

...on the second part... that's proof of id. Not presentation of a passport for crossing a border. There is no stamping of a passport to allow you entry. That is what may change.

Edited September 17, 2018 by JamboX2

[JamboX2]

30 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

The first I heard about this was when Ulysses said that you don't legally need a passport to travel between Ireland & the UK, so how would I know if the border forces are acting illegally, why don't you tell them and see how far you get on your next flight.

 

You don't. If you drive across the border. Get a train. Or a ferry.

 

If you fly you need photo id... like any domestic flight. You don't need a passport to cross an EU border.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

39 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

You don't. If you drive across the border. Get a train. Or a ferry.

 

If you fly you need photo id... like any domestic flight. You don't need a passport to cross an EU border.

 

I haven't driven, used the train or ferried between the UK & Ireland so I have no idea what the procedure is or isn't, I only mentioned flying from Edinburgh to Dublin that is the only mode of transport I've used and mentioned.

 

The only borders I've driven over were between France & Belgium & vice versa and there wasn't even a sign saying welcome to Belgium/France that I seen far less a border, so I know that there is no border checks, indeed the only checks were upon leaving and entering the UK at the channel tunnel, however flying into an EU country, now that's a different kettle of fish altogether, and it was flying I was on about and on about only.

 

 

[Ulysses]

It'd be good if people would stop going on about a "people's vote" or whatever euphemism for a second referendum they're using.

 

I think it makes sense to let people vote to approve or reject an exit deal (if there is one), but the notion of trying to overturn the original referendum decision for its own sake doesn't strike me as a good idea. 

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Whilst your condescending tone is endearing, by saying that not all government agencies adhere to or bend the rules that is indeed what you are saying. Even if it is a private provider operating a state service it is vicariously the state... 

 

 

...on the second part... that's proof of id. Not presentation of a passport for crossing a border. There is no stamping of a passport to allow you entry. That is what may change.

Touche and well deserved.

Not sure I understand the second part of that sentence. I have never said either the Irish or British governments are breaking the law in this instance.

I think people have started off talking at cross purposes. It was said you don't need a passport to travel  between UK  and Ireland, meaning there is no passport control by law. Correct.

Others have said you do need a passport because a private carrier (not unreasonably IMO) requires it , or maybe something equivalent (Easyjet's when booking instructions refer specifically and only to a passport).

I have to repeat I still don't see a huge problem or difference between showing a passport to border control (or more commonly now just scanning it at a gate) and showing it to an employee of Easyjet.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Ulysses]

2 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

...on the second part... that's proof of id. Not presentation of a passport for crossing a border. There is no stamping of a passport to allow you entry. That is what may change.

 

Part of the problem is that a significant section of the political process in NI was built on the fact that the EU Single Market came into being in 1993.

 

Another part of the problem is that the significant section in question relates to North-South relations (NI and the Republic of Ireland) and to East-West relations (both parts of this island and GB). Those elements of the political process were vociferously opposed by extremist Republican and Loyalist elements - and by the DUP.

 

The third part of the problem - the part that could be the trigger for a return to the past in NI - is that huge numbers of people don't understand the importance of the European Single Market dimension to the political process in NI.  That includes Rees-Mogg, Johnson, other Brexiteer elements of both major political parties in Westminster, and their fellow travellers here.  They have an essentially narrow - and, it has to be said, Anglo-centric view of politics - which does not allow for a full understanding of how exactly the NI political process has been assembled and why it can be destabilised unless considerable care is taken.  

 

By favouring one side in NI over the other, May is risking NI's political stability, and the risks of a backslide into chaos and violence are real.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Ulysses

[The Mighty Thor]

The IMF wading in today to point out the bleeding obvious. 

 

More project fear blah blah

 

Still nothing from the Tory party (little Englander division)

 

You'd think they'd just come out with their economic modelling so that it can be scrutinised. They must be saving it for a big reveal.

 

[Victorian]

The attitude once was that "no deal is better than a bad deal".     A two-fold device to:   1. Provide the impression that someone,  somewhere recognised that negotiating a bad deal was a bad idea.   2. Send a brinkmanship negotiating message to the EU side that the UK was prepared to go all the way to a no-deal position.

 

Now that it is finally dawning on the UK government that the EU side did not fall into such a crude and obvious trap and that no other UK side agreed position can be agreed,   it has become "it can only be my deal or a no deal".     No deal being the previously implied threat towards the EU side and now being the implied threat from the EU side towards the UK in general.

 

Some ****ing negotiating.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Victorian

[JamboX2]

2 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Touche and well deserved.

Not sure I understand the second part of that sentence. I have never said either the Irish or British governments are breaking the law in this instance.

I think people have started off talking at cross purposes. It was said you don't need a passport to travel  between UK  and Ireland, meaning there is no passport control by law. Correct.

Others have said you do need a passport because a private carrier (not unreasonably IMO) requires it , or maybe something equivalent (Easyjet's when booking instructions refer specifically and only to a passport).

I have to repeat I still don't see a huge problem or difference between showing a passport to border control (or more commonly now just scanning it at a gate) and showing it to an employee of Easyjet.

 

If we had national ID cards you'd not need a passport. 

 

The difference is in future - when reciprocal free movement ends - you will likely need a passport to be stamped with a visa. That is backwards and will kill or severely limit your freedom and ease of travelling beyond the UK. 

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

If we had national ID cards you'd not need a passport. 

 

The difference is in future - when reciprocal free movement ends - you will likely need a passport to be stamped with a visa. That is backwards and will kill or severely limit your freedom and ease of travelling beyond the UK. 

Maybe in the future. But most places I travel to currently outside the EU do not require a visa. It is classic Project Fear to say it is likely we will need one in future for travel to members of the EU and even more so to suggest that even if it comes to pass it will "severely limit freedom and ease of travelling beyond the UK". Even when a visa is currently required (as for example for Turkey) it is often just a matter of getting your passport stamped at zero or minimal cost at the port of entry.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

If we had national ID cards you'd not need a passport. 

 

The difference is in future - when reciprocal free movement ends - you will likely need a passport to be stamped with a visa. That is backwards and will kill or severely limit your freedom and ease of travelling beyond the UK. 

 

An extra few seconds for someone to stamp your passport is hardly killing or severely limiting your freedom to travel beyond the UK.

 

Genuine question.

Have British travellers ever needed a visa to visit France, Spain, Germany, Belgium etc, if the answer is no, then why do you think one will be needed after brexit?

[Boris]

Just now, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

An extra few seconds for someone to stamp your passport is hardly killing or severely limiting your freedom to travel beyond the UK.

 

Genuine question.

Have British travellers ever needed a visa to visit France, Spain, Germany, Belgium etc, if the answer is no, then why do you think one will be needed after brexit?

Because now these countries are in the EU, and so previous experience is irrelevant? 

 

Not saying it would be the case, merely offering an explanation. 

 

Do non EU citizens, outwith efta/eea require a visa to enter an eu country just now? I don't know. If they do, why would UK citizens be treated differently? 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

The IMF wading in today to point out the bleeding obvious. 

 

More project fear blah blah

 

Still nothing from the Tory party (little Englander division)

 

You'd think they'd just come out with their economic modelling so that it can be scrutinised. They must be saving it for a big reveal.

 

 

Made by Christine Legarde who has been against brexit from day one and has made many statements about what she sees as the armageddon of brexit, it must be said that none of her warnings/predictions have come true, thus far, maybe she'll get lucky one day and actually get something right.

[jake]

52 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Made by Christine Legarde who has been against brexit from day one and has made many statements about what she sees as the armageddon of brexit, it must be said that none of her warnings/predictions have come true, thus far, maybe she'll get lucky one day and actually get something right.

It's actually hilarious to observe .

I'm really enjoying brexit.

 

[Ulysses]

49 minutes ago, Boris said:

Because now these countries are in the EU, and so previous experience is irrelevant? 

 

Not saying it would be the case, merely offering an explanation. 

 

Do non EU citizens, outwith efta/eea require a visa to enter an eu country just now? I don't know. If they do, why would UK citizens be treated differently? 

 

Your explanation is correct.  Then, each country could do its own thing regarding entry, because it had no effect on its neighbours.  Nowadays, because there is freedom of movement within the Union, visa and passport control requirements are - for the most part - common, and regulated by the EU and not by individual member states. 

 

But that's not universally true.  Why? Because the UK and Ireland got opt outs. In both cases it was because of the need to preserve pre-existing Common Travel Area rules.  In the UK's case it was also to facilitate the fact that the UK's rules were more lax than the rest of us (Commonwealth entry rights).

 

There are about 110 countries where you have to have a visa to enter the EU at all.  In most of the Americas, Australia, New Zealand, Japan and a small number of other countries, you only need a visa to spend more than three months in the EU.

 

I'd be surprised if the UK found itself bundled with the 110 rather than the "inside track", to be honest. Likewise, I'd be surprised if the EU found itself with highly restricted access to the UK. 

 

That said, the EU is offering the UK completely visa-free access to the Union for leisure, business and all residential purposes, in return for the same access to the UK for EU citizens.

[The Mighty Thor]

8 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Made by Christine Legarde who has been against brexit from day one and has made many statements about what she sees as the armageddon of brexit, it must be said that none of her warnings/predictions have come true, thus far, maybe she'll get lucky one day and actually get something right.

Yup another voice from a major economic player saying it will not be good for the UK.  They're all wrong of course and the economic modelling thsyve been running is total nonsense.

 

Do you not find it a bit bizarre the no one is getting positive outcomes from the economic modelling, merely various degrees of negativity?

 

Like I say, perhaps Boris, Dave Dave, IBS & JRM are going for the big reveal?

 

I'm a bit like Jake. There's a part of me wants to sit back and watch the carnage unfold, particularly in the south of Englandshire when it starts to go shit shaped and the penny drops with those who voted this all through to keep a few dark faces out of England. It'd be Popcorn-tastic if it wasnt going to destroy the economy. 

 

[jake]

1 hour ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yup another voice from a major economic player saying it will not be good for the UK.  They're all wrong of course and the economic modelling thsyve been running is total nonsense.

 

Do you not find it a bit bizarre the no one is getting positive outcomes from the economic modelling, merely various degrees of negativity?

 

Like I say, perhaps Boris, Dave Dave, IBS & JRM are going for the big reveal?

 

I'm a bit like Jake. There's a part of me wants to sit back and watch the carnage unfold, particularly in the south of Englandshire when it starts to go shit shaped and the penny drops with those who voted this all through to keep a few dark faces out of England. It'd be Popcorn-tastic if it wasnt going to destroy the economy. 

 

The IMF have not a good track record on forecasts.

[JamboX2]

10 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

An extra few seconds for someone to stamp your passport is hardly killing or severely limiting your freedom to travel beyond the UK.

 

Genuine question.

Have British travellers ever needed a visa to visit France, Spain, Germany, Belgium etc, if the answer is no, then why do you think one will be needed after brexit?

 

Yes. 

 

And it's not an extra few seconds. A year ago I lost a passport in Ljubljana, Slovenia. I got an emergency passport at the UK embassy. As the passport was  an emergency one I couldn't return via the UK-EU citizen entry but through the non-EU arrivals as the passport had no chip or biometrics. That queue was over 30mins to get through with. You may say that's nothing, but given my mates had All strolled through with 0 worries and were waiting at the gate for our flight from London to Edinburgh in the time I was still queued at passport control it shows you the level of inconvenience and added delays that will come.

 

If you leave the EU and it's integrated systems for monitoring borders and have to then replicate that then you are ending free movement and making it harder to travel.

[JamboX2]

10 hours ago, Boris said:

Because now these countries are in the EU, and so previous experience is irrelevant? 

 

Not saying it would be the case, merely offering an explanation. 

 

Do non EU citizens, outwith efta/eea require a visa to enter an eu country just now? I don't know. If they do, why would UK citizens be treated differently? 

 

Yes. 

[JamboX2]

10 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

Maybe in the future. But most places I travel to currently outside the EU do not require a visa. It is classic Project Fear to say it is likely we will need one in future for travel to members of the EU and even more so to suggest that even if it comes to pass it will "severely limit freedom and ease of travelling beyond the UK". Even when a visa is currently required (as for example for Turkey) it is often just a matter of getting your passport stamped at zero or minimal cost at the port of entry.

 

And where are you going where no visa is needed? Certainly most commonwealth nations and the states require one.

 

You're extrapolating personal experience to make it sound as though it's fact. Much like those who say 'we aren't the ones wanting a hard border with Ireland' - you may not want it. But the logical consequence of your desired outcome is just that.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yup another voice from a major economic player saying it will not be good for the UK.  They're all wrong of course and the economic modelling thsyve been running is total nonsense.

 

Do you not find it a bit bizarre the no one is getting positive outcomes from the economic modelling, merely various degrees of negativity?

 

Like I say, perhaps Boris, Dave Dave, IBS & JRM are going for the big reveal?

 

I'm a bit like Jake. There's a part of me wants to sit back and watch the carnage unfold, particularly in the south of Englandshire when it starts to go shit shaped and the penny drops with those who voted this all through to keep a few dark faces out of England. It'd be Popcorn-tastic if it wasnt going to destroy the economy. 

 

 

There are a number of other things going on in the world right now which have the potential to tank the economy more than brexit could.

The on-going trade war between the US & China/rest of the world is looking like it's only going to get worse (see today's news), as is the persistant signs of a global slow-down and there are many who are warning that another financial crash could very well be on the cards, of course brexit will have an impact as well upon the British economy, I've never once denied that it wouldn't.

 

Global events could very well overshadow any negitive effect brexit could have, but again nobody knows for sure what is going to happen.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

41 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Yes. 

 

And it's not an extra few seconds. A year ago I lost a passport in Ljubljana, Slovenia. I got an emergency passport at the UK embassy. As the passport was  an emergency one I couldn't return via the UK-EU citizen entry but through the non-EU arrivals as the passport had no chip or biometrics. That queue was over 30mins to get through with. You may say that's nothing, but given my mates had All strolled through with 0 worries and were waiting at the gate for our flight from London to Edinburgh in the time I was still queued at passport control it shows you the level of inconvenience and added delays that will come.

 

If you leave the EU and it's integrated systems for monitoring borders and have to then replicate that then you are ending free movement and making it harder to travel.

 

I'll concede that the queues in the EU passport line generally move much much faster than the non-EU line, worst one I seen was leaving Venice, but that was more to do with a lack of staff as there were only two kiosks manned at Marco Polo airport, on the non-EU line, whereas the EU line you just scanned your passport and the barrier opened.

After brexit it will depend on whether the EU wants to treat UK passport holders the same as the rest of the world or allow us to join the EU passport holders line, maybes aye maybes no. 

As for entry back into the UK, I don't think that will change at all, because instead of the EU passport holder line it'll become the British passport holder line, then again maybe nothing will change at all, depends on whether a deal on this issue can be struck.

[Francis Albert]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

And where are you going where no visa is needed? Certainly most commonwealth nations and the states require one.

 

You're extrapolating personal experience to make it sound as though it's fact. Much like those who say 'we aren't the ones wanting a hard border with Ireland' - you may not want it. But the logical consequence of your desired outcome is just that.

USA, United Arab Emirates, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand ... etc

Moving beyond my travels just taking the start of the alphabet, non-EU countries which do not require a visa for UK citizens before travel - Argentina, Aruba, Belize, Botswana, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa RIca, (I have excluded small Commonwealth countries). Many others from outside this very long list (which carries on through the alphabet to Venezuala) merely require a passport to be stamped with a visa at the point of arrival.

 

Project Fear benefits from the fact that most people have no experience of travelling or indeed life before we joined the EU so can run scare stories freely.

 

I don't understand your last sentence which I can't relate to anything I have posted.

 But as to "hard borders" and its impact on the freedom and ease for individual travellers ...in nearly 50 years apart from the traumatic experience of showing a passport I have been stopped by customs/border control precisely once.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Francis Albert

[Norm]

17 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

USA, United Arab Emirates, Singapore, Indonesia, Thailand ... etc

Moving beyond my travels just taking the start of the alphabet, non-EU countries which do not require a visa for UK citizens before travel - Argentina, Aruba, Belize, Botswana, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa RIca, (I have excluded small Commonwealth countries). Many others from outside this very long list (which carries on through the alphabet to Venezuala) merely require a passport to be stamped with a visa at the point of arrival.

 

Project Fear benefits from the fact that most people have no experience of travelling or indeed life before we joined the EU so can run scare stories freely.

 

I don't understand your last sentence which I can't relate to anything I have posted.

 But as to "hard borders" and its impact on the freedom and ease for individual travellers ...in nearly 50 years apart from the traumatic experience of showing a passport I have been stopped by customs/border control precisely once.

I'm most probably wrong but is there not a possibility that you don't have to get a visa in these countries due to the fact that you have a passport from the EU? As in, the visa process is waived for EU citizens but not for others? So, after Brexit, as we're no longer EU citizens, a visa may be required. Could be bollocks, I dunno, but sounds plausible. 

[Francis Albert]

3 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yup another voice from a major economic player saying it will not be good for the UK.  They're all wrong of course and the economic modelling thsyve been running is total nonsense.

 

Do you not find it a bit bizarre the no one is getting positive outcomes from the economic modelling, merely various degrees of negativity?

 

Like I say, perhaps Boris, Dave Dave, IBS & JRM are going for the big reveal?

 

I'm a bit like Jake. There's a part of me wants to sit back and watch the carnage unfold, particularly in the south of Englandshire when it starts to go shit shaped and the penny drops with those who voted this all through to keep a few dark faces out of England. It'd be Popcorn-tastic if it wasnt going to destroy the economy. 

 

There have been a few positive forecasts most (but not all - there are a minority of academics who are pro-Leave)- from fairly rabid Brexiteers and therefore reasonably ignored.

 

But I don't believe the Treasury, IMF and other forecasts can be taken as gospel or even accepted at face value  as realistic forecasts. Their track record does not inspire excessive confidence. One of the complaints of economists outside the Remain camp has been that the Treasury for example has not presented enough detail about is methodology and assumptions (which are critical - rubbish in rubbish out in the old phrase about computer modelling)  and probabilities of forecasts for them to make a proper assessment or critique of them.

[Francis Albert]

22 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

I'm most probably wrong but is there not a possibility that you don't have to get a visa in these countries due to the fact that you have a passport from the EU? As in, the visa process is waived for EU citizens but not for others? So, after Brexit, as we're no longer EU citizens, a visa may be required. Could be bollocks, I dunno, but sounds plausible. 

EU does have some reciprocal arrangement with other countries but not all of the UK's visa-free travel arrangements (many from pre-EU days) derive from them. For example some EU countries from the old Warsaw Pact still require a US visa. In any event even Project Fear has not threatened that UK's external visa arrangements with non-EU countries will be impacted (although I may have missed it in the storm of doom). As far as the EU is concerned all I have seen is that we may have to comply with a planned EU visa waiver scheme (like the US ESTA) which would mean paying 7 euros for the visa waiver. ("Major Blow to Brits travelling to Europe" and the like were the headlines accompanying that news a while back).

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

I'll concede that the queues in the EU passport line generally move much much faster than the non-EU line, worst one I seen was leaving Venice, but that was more to do with a lack of staff as there were only two kiosks manned at Marco Polo airport, on the non-EU line, whereas the EU line you just scanned your passport and the barrier opened.

After brexit it will depend on whether the EU wants to treat UK passport holders the same as the rest of the world or allow us to join the EU passport holders line, maybes aye maybes no. 

As for entry back into the UK, I don't think that will change at all, because instead of the EU passport holder line it'll become the British passport holder line, then again maybe nothing will change at all, depends on whether a deal on this issue can be struck.

 

Entry back into the UK won't change for you.  But it will change for me.  That's why my negotiators are telling your negotiators we don't want it.

 

Meanwhile, entry to the other 27 countries won't change for me, but it will change for you. That's something you might expect your government to be concerned about, but evidently they aren't. 

 

Given this morning's news, I'd expect EU governments will be putting UK passport holders in the "rest of the world" queue.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/brexit-eu-citizens-special-access-migration-advisory-committee

[Jambo-Jimbo]

7 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Entry back into the UK won't change for you.  But it will change for me.  That's why my negotiators are telling your negotiators we don't want it.

 

Meanwhile, entry to the other 27 countries won't change for me, but it will change for you. That's something you might expect your government to be concerned about, but evidently they aren't. 

 

Given this morning's news, I'd expect EU governments will be putting UK passport holders in the "rest of the world" queue.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/brexit-eu-citizens-special-access-migration-advisory-committee

 

Tbh neither am I concerned about it, so what if I have to wait in a queue for bit longer to either enter or leave an EU country once or twice a year, no big hardship as far as I'm concerned, as it'll be what it is.

Folks who are travelling daily/weekly between the UK & EU and back again, yeh it'll affect them, but for your normal tourist, it'll only affect them once or twice a year.

[Ulysses]

29 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Tbh neither am I concerned about it, so what if I have to wait in a queue for bit longer to either enter or leave an EU country once or twice a year, no big hardship as far as I'm concerned, as it'll be what it is.

Folks who are travelling daily/weekly between the UK & EU and back again, yeh it'll affect them, but for your normal tourist, it'll only affect them once or twice a year.

 

That's good for you, but a lot of people - I mean British people - don't have that luxury. I don't expect you to consider the effects on them, but the British government has a responsibility to do so, and it isn't living up to that responsibility. 

 

You also keep losing sight of the reality that passport and customs queues at the land frontier are completely incompatible with the NI political process. Your government is unilaterally abrogating a treaty with Ireland, and the British people didn't vote for that.

[Cade]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/rightwing-thinktanks-unveil-radical-plan-for-us-uk-brexit-trade-deal-nhs

 

 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's good for you, but a lot of people - I mean British people - don't have that luxury. I don't expect you to consider the effects on them, but the British government has a responsibility to do so, and it isn't living up to that responsibility. 

 

You also keep losing sight of the reality that passport and customs queues at the land frontier are completely incompatible with the NI political process. Your government is unilaterally abrogating a treaty with Ireland, and the British people didn't vote for that.

 

As we are dealing with politicians here, I would not be surprised in the least that some sort of fudged deal is rolled out, enabling them to continue talking and that the can be kicked down the road just a wee bit further, meanwhile little to nothing in reality will happen, which will only add to even more uncertainty and confusion.

[Francis Albert]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's good for you, but a lot of people - I mean British people - don't have that luxury. I don't expect you to consider the effects on them, but the British government has a responsibility to do so, and it isn't living up to that responsibility. 

 

You also keep losing sight of the reality that passport and customs queues at the land frontier are completely incompatible with the NI political process. Your government is unilaterally abrogating a treaty with Ireland, and the British people didn't vote for that.

I thought the discussion was ranging beyond the UK/Irish border and was more generally about travel rights between UK and the rest of the EU, and therefore mainly about travel rights between the UK and the other 26. IMO the UK government in trying (however incompetently) to deliver what it invited the UK to vote for rightly judges that (whatever exactly they voted for) how many minutes spent in a passports/customs queue was not a decisive issue.

Compliance with UK/Ireland treaties (how has the UK government to date abrogated its treaty obligations?) and the impact on the UK/Irish border are rightly being dealt with separately and exceptionally.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Francis Albert

[AlphonseCapone]

5 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

And where are you going where no visa is needed? Certainly most commonwealth nations and the states require one.

 

You're extrapolating personal experience to make it sound as though it's fact. Much like those who say 'we aren't the ones wanting a hard border with Ireland' - you may not want it. But the logical consequence of your desired outcome is just that.

 

3 hours ago, Normthebarman said:

I'm most probably wrong but is there not a possibility that you don't have to get a visa in these countries due to the fact that you have a passport from the EU? As in, the visa process is waived for EU citizens but not for others? So, after Brexit, as we're no longer EU citizens, a visa may be required. Could be bollocks, I dunno, but sounds plausible. 

 

The UK has the 4th most "powerful" passport in the world. This is based on the number of countries you can enter without a visa. https://qz.com/1111515/the-worlds-most-powerful-passports-singapore-ranks-number-one-germany-number-two/

 

I expect this to be impacted once we leave the EU if there is not a reciprocal free movement agreement with the EU but the different positions of various EU countries shows that there is more to current arrangements than just being in the EU. 

 

To be honest, as a "remainer" (cringe at these pishy pigeon hole terms), I'm bored senseless with it all now. Deal, no deal, whatever, life never changes much for us proles anyway. Sure, my partner will be sitting having a coffee at one end of the airport while I wait in my non-EU queue to have my visa checked but **** it. I've needed visas for plenty countries even as a millennial, never known I was born 30 year old. 

 

Completely against a second referendum because I don't want that precedent set when it comes to a Scottish Independence Referendum. Vince Cable is already pushing that angle.

 

The Irish border is the biggest concern and the one that folk seem to be completely downplaying. We'll just use technology. Wtf does that even mean. The problem is we have a bunch of English people who don't understand Ireland and its history or the current fragility of peace making decisions. The current Westminster politician in charge of sorting out the current mess at Stromont recently admitted before being appointed she didn't realise Nationalists never vote for the DUP and Unionists for Sinn Féin. I mean, ****ing hell!! Basic advice for any job interview is research the company you want to work for. I think folk over here naively think all the stuff in Ireland is now history and forgotten about. Not even close to it. 

[SE16 3LN]

7 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yup another voice from a major economic player saying it will not be good for the UK.  They're all wrong of course and the economic modelling thsyve been running is total nonsense.

 

Do you not find it a bit bizarre the no one is getting positive outcomes from the economic modelling, merely various degrees of negativity?

 

Like I say, perhaps Boris, Dave Dave, IBS & JRM are going for the big reveal?

 

I'm a bit like Jake. There's a part of me wants to sit back and watch the carnage unfold, particularly in the south of Englandshire when it starts to go shit shaped and the penny drops with those who voted this all through to keep a few dark faces out of England. It'd be Popcorn-tastic if it wasnt going to destroy the economy. 

 

Its amazing how little people understand about the South of England.

[Francis Albert]

8 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Its amazing how little people understand about the South of England.

 Or Jake!

[Boris]

11 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

 Or Jake!

 

Jake, as is his right, wants to leave the EU.  Which is fine.

 

But is Jake wantingto leave on the terms put forth by the Rees-Mogg's and Boris Johnson's of this world?

 

Over to you Jake.

 

My point is that as no one really knows what is wanted from Brexit, but the bargaining position of the governement is heading down one ideological route, not one that was necessarily voted for.

[Cade]

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/immigration-myths-brexit-leave-government-report-eu-citizens-migrants-tax-income-a8543121.html

[The Mighty Thor]

7 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

There are a number of other things going on in the world right now which have the potential to tank the economy more than brexit could.

The on-going trade war between the US & China/rest of the world is looking like it's only going to get worse (see today's news), as is the persistant signs of a global slow-down and there are many who are warning that another financial crash could very well be on the cards, of course brexit will have an impact as well upon the British economy, I've never once denied that it wouldn't.

 

Global events could very well overshadow any negitive effect brexit could have, but again nobody knows for sure what is going to happen.

 

You're right, global economic conditions are changing, helluva time to be striking out on your own with no trade deals behind you.

 

One can only imagine how that will all pan out for one of the weakest economies in Europe.

[The Mighty Thor]

6 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

There have been a few positive forecasts most (but not all - there are a minority of academics who are pro-Leave)- from fairly rabid Brexiteers and therefore reasonably ignored.

 

But I don't believe the Treasury, IMF and other forecasts can be taken as gospel or even accepted at face value  as realistic forecasts. Their track record does not inspire excessive confidence. One of the complaints of economists outside the Remain camp has been that the Treasury for example has not presented enough detail about is methodology and assumptions (which are critical - rubbish in rubbish out in the old phrase about computer modelling)  and probabilities of forecasts for them to make a proper assessment or critique of them.

 

It's not so much as taking these forecasts as gospel, it's more taking them as a 'weather forecast' if you like. They're all saying it's going to rain, the quantity is yet unkown.

 

I'd like to know from Boris et al if i'm going to need my brolly or to start building an ark?

[Jambo-Jimbo]

2 hours ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

The UK has the 4th most "powerful" passport in the world. This is based on the number of countries you can enter without a visa. https://qz.com/1111515/the-worlds-most-powerful-passports-singapore-ranks-number-one-germany-number-two/

 

I expect this to be impacted once we leave the EU if there is not a reciprocal free movement agreement with the EU but the different positions of various EU countries shows that there is more to current arrangements than just being in the EU. 

 

To be honest, as a "remainer" (cringe at these pishy pigeon hole terms), I'm bored senseless with it all now. Deal, no deal, whatever, life never changes much for us proles anyway. Sure, my partner will be sitting having a coffee at one end of the airport while I wait in my non-EU queue to have my visa checked but **** it. I've needed visas for plenty countries even as a millennial, never known I was born 30 year old. 

 

Completely against a second referendum because I don't want that precedent set when it comes to a Scottish Independence Referendum. Vince Cable is already pushing that angle.

 

The Irish border is the biggest concern and the one that folk seem to be completely downplaying. We'll just use technology. Wtf does that even mean. The problem is we have a bunch of English people who don't understand Ireland and its history or the current fragility of peace making decisions. The current Westminster politician in charge of sorting out the current mess at Stromont recently admitted before being appointed she didn't realise Nationalists never vote for the DUP and Unionists for Sinn Féin. I mean, ****ing hell!! Basic advice for any job interview is research the company you want to work for. I think folk over here naively think all the stuff in Ireland is now history and forgotten about. Not even close to it. 

 

Exactly it would set a dangerous precedent, inasmuch as potentially every future vote/election/referendum on a local & national level would be open to being re-run if the losers moan and shout loud enough.

And let's not kid ourselves, a second referendum is not a so called 'peoples vote' or a vote on accepting or rejecting any deal, it's all about letting the folks who are against brexit get a second bite at the cherry and hope that this time they win and they can stop brexit and stay in the EU, they can dress it up anyway they like and call it whatever they want, but every proposed option which they have put forward for the questions on a second ballot paper include one option which is to stay in the EU, but they dress it up as voting to acecpt or reject any deal.

 

Did you see Alastair Campbell on Sky News today, getting a wee bit excited he was, if you didn't see the interview, he was basically saying that brexit has to be stopped at any cost.

The likes of him & Vince Cable and his 'we only believe in democracy when we win party' are a danger to us all, because once you start to ignore the result of a democratic vote just because you don't like the result then..............well that is one can of worms which should be left firmly closed.

[Jambo-Jimbo]

28 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

You're right, global economic conditions are changing, helluva time to be striking out on your own with no trade deals behind you.

 

One can only imagine how that will all pan out for one of the weakest economies in Europe.

 

Really, and here's me thinking that the UK was the second or third largest European economy.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-largest-economies-eu/

 

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Jambo-Jimbo

[The Mighty Thor]

33 minutes ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Really, and here's me thinking that the UK was the second or third largest European economy.

https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-largest-economies-eu/

 

 

 

It is indeed the second or third largest economy but one of the weakest performing in the EU.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263008/gdp-growth-in-eu-countries-compared-to-same-quarter-previous-year/

 

This is before the good times arrive.

[Seymour M Hersh]

11 hours ago, The Mighty Thor said:

Yup another voice from a major economic player saying it will not be good for the UK.  They're all wrong of course and the economic modelling thsyve been running is total nonsense.

 

Do you not find it a bit bizarre the no one is getting positive outcomes from the economic modelling, merely various degrees of negativity?

 

Like I say, perhaps Boris, Dave Dave, IBS & JRM are going for the big reveal?

 

I'm a bit like Jake. There's a part of me wants to sit back and watch the carnage unfold, particularly in the south of Englandshire when it starts to go shit shaped and the penny drops with those who voted this all through to keep a few dark faces out of England. It'd be Popcorn-tastic if it wasnt going to destroy the economy. 

 

 

Is that the Christine Legarde who was convicted of giving preferential treatment (when a French Minister) to Bernard Tapie who made around 400m Euros out of it? That Christine Legarde? An organisation who's parent organisation is the corrupt and utterly inept UN. 

[The Mighty Thor]

55 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Is that the Christine Legarde who was convicted of giving preferential treatment (when a French Minister) to Bernard Tapie who made around 400m Euros out of it? That Christine Legarde? An organisation who's parent organisation is the corrupt and utterly inept UN. 

They're all wrong.

Lerande is bent, Carney is inept, blah blah. 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

13 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

They're all wrong.

Lerande is bent, Carney is inept, blah blah. 

 

 

They certainly have an agenda. 

[The Mighty Thor]

11 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

They certainly have an agenda. 

I'd certainly love to see the agenda of JRM and the boys. 

Nada so far.

[Cade]

"People have had enough of experts"