Levein is not the answer ( merged )

[cuddledoon]

 

Posters might find it helpful if that thread can be summarised, and some balance found.

The following is written on the assumption that the vast majority of posters are true Jambos, care about our Club deeply, and want the very best for HMFC, despite having very contrasting views about Craig Levein, ranging from one extreme – he is a top manager – to the other extreme – he needs punted immediately.

It seems, having read through the entire thread, that there is little chance of a consensus.

It is not unreasonable to hold strong views, indeed it can produce healthy debate, but what is surely unnecessary is the poisonous nature of some of the posts, involving personal insults, name calling and the like. If we do want the best for our Club, we need to pull together, debate yes, be passionate and committed to a view, but respect the views of fellow Jambos.

Those supporting CL feel that the very best outcome will be CL turning us in to a top three side, with good cup runs, given another summer transfer window and another full season, with improved and experienced players introduced, and a more attacking mind-set.

Those who feel that CL’s time is up point to recent results (particularly at Motherwell and Hibs), to the low number of wins and goals, to the unadventurous style of play under CL, to the errors in long-term contract signings, and indeed to his record of having won nothing in his career.

Some posters are accused of being in CL’s pocket – indeed that he has people make positive and complimentary posts on his behalf. They argue that AB believes in him, that he has had to sort out the mess he inherited, that money had to go to the new stand rather than to CL to improve the squad, that only with time will the necessary improvements been seen on the park, and subsequent results improve – and indeed that there is no-one better as Coach, no-one more committed to the Club, than CL.

Other posters are accused of having personal agendas against CL and have a dislike for him, and therefore are unable to give him the chance to correct mistakes made. They allege that :  he is arrogant, stubborn, never willing to admit mistakes, is a bully both in and out of the Club, has a propensity for gambling regularly, even alleging past issues re his relationships.

It is clear that there are many posters who take a more middle-line.  Whilst there appears to be an increasing number who have begun to lose faith in CL as a result of the results and performances of the cup tie and the derby, there are many who do not want to judge him until next season.

Despite all the views expressed in the thread “Levein is not the answer,” it would seem very unlikely, even if we failed to make the top six (equally unlikely) that, given her support of and feelings for CL, AB will be persuaded to make significant changes this season. 

[been here before]

You should have posted that on the 'Levein Is Not The Answer' thread.

[All Out Attack]

3 minutes ago, redm said:

 

Agreed. Any new manager would be faced with exactly the same post-Cathro challenges that we have to deal with now too. It sometimes reads as if people think bringing in someone (anyone!) new will automatically be a magical superquick fix. 

 

 

This argument doesn't make sense... 

 

Essentially you are saying that Hearts should have the same manager for life and nothing should ever change, no matter how low we sink. 

 

Levein has been here in charge of all matters football for 4 years and we are now going backwards with the worst squad seen under his reign. 

 

Bottom line, things need to change or supporters lose patience and stop going. 

[Enzo Chiefo]

5 hours ago, frankblack said:

 

Its clear that you believe all the bad players signed are CL's fault but he gets none of the credit for the good ones.

 

Are you really trying to say that Berra was signed by Cathro's contacts or Levein's - the manager who brought him through at Hearts and managed him at International Level?

 

Under Cathro we were bottom of the form table for his duration in charge.  He inherited a good team and dismantled it and the remaining players didn't have any confidence in him.  I think McCulloch provided the ground work for Clarke's success, whereas we had months to untangle the mess before we had a recovery at the end of the year.

 

Injuries to Djoum and Mitchell - two of our best players - have killed our season as its clear we lack the depth to cover those injuries.

 

Some so called Hearts supporter you are, who won't back the team because you have a clear personal grudge against the manager.  Don't come bitching here if we don't have the funds to recruit the players to take us forward.   This forum is for supporters who go to the games they can afford to/geographically get to.

The hold that Levein has over some quite frankly, deluded , posters is incredible. I am pointing out to people like you that Cathro can't be blamed for signing all the duds and Levein the good ones . Did you not read my post???

 

Craig Levein is yesterday's man , the modern game having passed him by. Yes, he knows Berra from before...we all know that but if you are giving him credit for good signings you have to blame him for the expensive flops. The imbalance in the squad is Levein's fault, the poor tactics are Levein's fault and the lack of creativity and pace is Levein's fault.

 

Ian Cathro did not set the team up against Mwell last week and it will not be Ian Cathro's teams that have failed to score in a league game against Hibs in an entire season for the first time in 45 years!!!  Ian Cathro's team did not get pumped out of Europe by a team of Maltese Waiters either.  

 

I would imagine that, having worked in the Premiership, La Liga and the Portuguese top flight,  Cathro will have a more useful list of contacts than Levein. Deferring to bigimobilestrikers.com and his old mucker John Colquhoun will not get us the players that will drive us forward.  You bash on though and throw your money at the present regime - it's a free country- but expect to be served up the attritional tripe that we've endured in the last 4 away games. 

 

The club needs a new direction and I would imagine that AB is running out of patience, as I am in with some of the deluded nonsense on here, and I would expect a Budgemont Day 2 shortly.

[Gazbo]

Why did you start a whole new thread for these comments when there is already a near on fifty page thread already?? 

 

Sorry been here before beat me to it

Edited March 12, 2018 by Gazbo

[William H. Bonney]

wave at me when I wave at you. 

[redm]

7 minutes ago, All Out Attack said:

This argument doesn't make sense... 

 

Essentially you are saying that Hearts should have the same manager for life and nothing should ever change, no matter how low we sink. 

 

Levein has been here in charge of all matters football for 4 years and we are now going backwards with the worst squad seen under his reign. 

 

Bottom line, things need to change or supporters lose patience and stop going. 

 

No, that's not what I'm getting at. It's a follow up to the idea that we're mid-plan and the person managing us through that plan should be given time rather than stopping now and asking someone else to draw up something completely new, designed to address exactly the same challenges but with only a fraction of the knowledge of our players or predicament. I think it's daft when we can see progress has been made and coupled with Levein's track record, there's every reason to think progress will continue too.

 

Levein was DoF sure but it wasn't his signings. Now it is his signings. He has a great track record as a manager, and that's now how he's being judged primarily.

[redm]

15 minutes ago, MadJock said:

 

Since taking time probably cost Rangers Mcinnes I guess you refering to the Dof role - yes it works well down south and abroad, lots of things work well elsewhere but unfortunaly do not seem to work here, Hibs do not have a DoF (if i am wrong then please correct me) and other clubs can probably sweeten the offer with better saleries than us.

 

All of those clubs I mentioned have DOFs or their equivalents. 

 

Plus, the McInnes delay thing was way more likely to be purely about money imo but that's getting a wee bit off topic....   

[been here before]

Maybe looking to start 45 threads on Levein Is Not The Answer.

[Escobar PHM]

34 minutes ago, davemclaren said:

I’m sure those were some of the factors. 

Craig Levein was already an employee when Cathro was sacked. His qualifications for the job were known at that time but we didn't appoint him. We elected to open the job up for applicants and went through a process to recruit externally. At some stage for whatever reasons (and we can speculate all day on what those were) we changed our mind and appointed an employee previously overlooked or discounted ( again we can speculate all day long as to why he was initially discounted or overlooked). If nothing else this wasted 3 weeks at a vital part of the pre-season.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[feedthefox]

Forgive me if I have simply missed it (due to a bit of a self imposed media blackout) but has CL come out and given any interviews or comment on Friday's game?

 

Edit- oops sorry just seen something on website, I'm guessing that's it and there's not an actual interview.

Edited March 12, 2018 by feedthefox

[MadJock]

3 minutes ago, redm said:

 

No, that's not what I'm getting at. It's a follow up to the idea that we're mid-plan and the person managing us through that plan should be given time rather than stopping now and asking someone else to draw up something completely new, designed to address exactly the same challenges. I think it's daft when we can see progress has been made and coupled with Levein's track record, there's every reason to think progress will continue too.

 

Levein was DoF sure but it wasn't his signings. Now it is his signings. He has a great track record as a manager, and that's now how he's being judged primarily.

 

I know some people are juding and defending him on his past, for me its about since he took over, so i have a question for the folks who are Pro CL .

 

Do you like the type of football we are currently playing and do you get any enjoyment watching it ??

 

 

[JamboAl]

48 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

What does it matter ?

 

I don't know and I'm not opening myself up to being ridiculed for speculating. I believe we weren't told the true story about how Levein came to be appointed because some of it would be potentially embarrassing if it got out.

 

If folk want to think that we had a 'Eureka' moment and suddenly realised Levein could do the job, after nearly 3 weeks of  disseminating applications and interviewing external candidates (some of whom were 'excellent' lets not forget) that's up to them

If you're not flying a kite, pray tell us more.

[151]

3 minutes ago, Barack said:

Don’t like the OP’s font.

OP oot

[Escobar PHM]

3 minutes ago, JamboAl said:

If you're not flying a kite, pray tell us more.

Ive quite clearly said I didn't know the truth, just that I didn't believe what was put out for public consumption. It didn't and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

'We suddenly realised the right man for the job was here the whole time' What a crock of shit.

Edited March 12, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Italian Lambretta]

Continue to be a stubborn arse and ignore everyone else

[kila]

3 minutes ago, feedthefox said:

Forgive me if I have simply missed it (due to a bit of a self imposed media blackout) but has CL come out and given any interviews or comment on Friday's game?

 

 

 

[ford donald]

11 minutes ago, redm said:

 

No, that's not what I'm getting at. It's a follow up to the idea that we're mid-plan and the person managing us through that plan should be given time rather than stopping now and asking someone else to draw up something completely new, designed to address exactly the same challenges but with only a fraction of the knowledge of our players or predicament. I think it's daft when we can see progress has been made and coupled with Levein's track record, there's every reason to think progress will continue too.

 

Levein was DoF sure but it wasn't his signings. Now it is his signings. He has a great track record as a manager, and that's now how he's being judged primarily.

 Where does the great great track record as manager come from?

[Maroon Sailor]

What was the question ?

[soonbe110]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

Ive quite clearly said I didn't know the truth, just that I didn't believe what was put out for public consumption. It didn't and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It’s a perfectly plausible storyline. Been there, done it. Look at the external market, no-one jumps out at you, persuade current employee to change roles for the good of the company and potentially their career. 

On the basis that, as you admit, you have no data to support your comments, I’d suggest it’s just muck-raking nonsense. 

[ford donald]

23 minutes ago, cuddledoon said:

 

Posters might find it helpful if that thread can be summarised, and some balance found.

The following is written on the assumption that the vast majority of posters are true Jambos, care about our Club deeply, and want the very best for HMFC, despite having very contrasting views about Craig Levein, ranging from one extreme – he is a top manager – to the other extreme – he needs punted immediately.

It seems, having read through the entire thread, that there is little chance of a consensus.

It is not unreasonable to hold strong views, indeed it can produce healthy debate, but what is surely unnecessary is the poisonous nature of some of the posts, involving personal insults, name calling and the like. If we do want the best for our Club, we need to pull together, debate yes, be passionate and committed to a view, but respect the views of fellow Jambos.

Those supporting CL feel that the very best outcome will be CL turning us in to a top three side, with good cup runs, given another summer transfer window and another full season, with improved and experienced players introduced, and a more attacking mind-set.

Those who feel that CL’s time is up point to recent results (particularly at Motherwell and Hibs), to the low number of wins and goals, to the unadventurous style of play under CL, to the errors in long-term contract signings, and indeed to his record of having won nothing in his career.

Some posters are accused of being in CL’s pocket – indeed that he has people make positive and complimentary posts on his behalf. They argue that AB believes in him, that he has had to sort out the mess he inherited, that money had to go to the new stand rather than to CL to improve the squad, that only with time will the necessary improvements been seen on the park, and subsequent results improve – and indeed that there is no-one better as Coach, no-one more committed to the Club, than CL.

Other posters are accused of having personal agendas against CL and have a dislike for him, and therefore are unable to give him the chance to correct mistakes made. They allege that :  he is arrogant, stubborn, never willing to admit mistakes, is a bully both in and out of the Club, has a propensity for gambling regularly, even alleging past issues re his relationships.

It is clear that there are many posters who take a more middle-line.  Whilst there appears to be an increasing number who have begun to lose faith in CL as a result of the results and performances of the cup tie and the derby, there are many who do not want to judge him until next season.

Despite all the views expressed in the thread “Levein is not the answer,” it would seem very unlikely, even if we failed to make the top six (equally unlikely) that, given her support of and feelings for CL, AB will be persuaded to make significant changes this season. 

Supporters have their opinions same as you,think the majority wants him out.

[redm]

5 minutes ago, MadJock said:

 

I know some people are juding and defending him on his past, for me its about since he took over, so i have a question for the folks who are Pro CL .

 

Do you like the type of football we are currently playing and do you get any enjoyment watching it ??

 

 

 

Sometimes I’ve really enjoyed it, other times I thought it was just ok, and on more occasions than I’d really like I thought it was grim. But I put most of that down to personnel issues - and I’m hopeful that some decent recruitment this summer will help. 

 

In my Hearts supporting career I’ve seen a lot of grim football though so it’s not really enough to make me hit the panic button. Plus while I struggle with detail I don’t really remember having a huge issue with his chosen style of play when he was our manager last time, and I don’t remember it being an issue at DUFC either. If I’m wrong on that I’m happy to be corrected though. 

[All Out Attack]

6 minutes ago, redm said:

 

No, that's not what I'm getting at. It's a follow up to the idea that we're mid-plan and the person managing us through that plan should be given time rather than stopping now and asking someone else to draw up something completely new, designed to address exactly the same challenges but with only a fraction of the knowledge of our players or predicament. I think it's daft when we can see progress has been made and coupled with Levein's track record, there's every reason to think progress will continue too.

 

Levein was DoF sure but it wasn't his signings. Now it is his signings. He has a great track record as a manager, and that's now how he's being judged primarily.

I know what you are getting at. 

 

What I would say,  is that his previous track record as manger saw a 10% - 15% drop in attendances,  right across his previous 4 year stint and this was from a much lower starting point than we have now.  

 

Looking at Craig Levein's responsibilities from the 'meet the board'  section of the Hearts Web site, it is about achieving success on the field. To this end and any way you now look upon it  he has failed. 

 

RESPONSIBILITIES: Executive role, principally responsible for setting the strategy to achieve success on the field and for the day-to-day running of the football side of the business, supported by his management team based at Riccarton.

[been here before]

5 minutes ago, Maroon Sailor said:

What was the question ?

 

Craig Levein v Judith Ralston.

 

Who'd win?

[soonbe110]

2 minutes ago, ford donald said:

Supporters have their opinions same as you,think the majority wants him out.

Disagree. Minority want him out. 

If we agree that some want him out and some want him to stay does that mean we have reached consensus?

[Geoff the Mince]

IN CUDDLES WE TRUST ! 

[feedthefox]

6 minutes ago, kila said:

 

 

 

 

Thanks Kila, for a second or two he looked a bit uncomfortable with the "natural order" question which he knew was coming right from the off.

[Bull's-eye]

It'll reach 500 pages.

[scott herbertson]

15 minutes ago, MadJock said:

 

I know some people are juding and defending him on his past, for me its about since he took over, so i have a question for the folks who are Pro CL .

 

Do you like the type of football we are currently playing and do you get any enjoyment watching it ??

 

 

 

I wouldn’t say im pro Levein , more anti sacking him. I like the approach he takes to building a team (good central defensive partnership, good goalie, big man up front, gives youth its chance).

 

on the down side he is cautious at times (everyone back for corners) , and I doubt if he will change his approach easily.

 

i don’t think we have much option but to give him time. Until Christmas would be my thinking. Summer signings will have already been set up in many cases so I don’t think it would be easy for a completely new managerial team.

 

[All Out Attack]

Leave... 

[sadj]

21 hours ago, soonbe110 said:

We signed him for 20 weeks. Who knows the fee but I have heard £150k from more than one source. 

Goncalves and Walkers wages probably £6k per week minimum combined. We don’t have them on the books for roughly 25 weeks. That’s a saving of roughly £150k. Transfer fees unlikely to have even been touched so still in the bank. 

Another fictitious post from you. You really don’t like Hearts do you? 

This is something that proper pisses me off. Convenient ways of misrepresenting our outgoings over Naismith. The money saved by horsing the players wages who were , Walkers (was time to go) and Isma (was always going to go) in January will mean as you say having in all likliehood not touching the transfer fees. 

 

The other thing that pisses me off is the fitness thing anyone who thinks you can get upto ? fitness as you would with a full preseason has ignored football players for years when its mentioned they havent had a proper preseason and doesnt understand fitness from a footballers view. You can not in all honesty get fully preseason fit whilst trying to play throughout the season. ICs insistence on ball play in preseason has in a league that is brutally physical and fast paced caused major damage. 

 

Opinions are fine but when they are uneducated or basically ficticious doesnt solve anything and just looks like a way to have a go at the club. Some posters on here get it others just seem to have their own agenda and it gets very frustrating to read.

 

 

[JKBMod 10]

@cuddledoon check your PMs please.

[frankblack]

27 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

The hold that Levein has over some quite frankly, deluded , posters is incredible. I am pointing out to people like you that Cathro can't be blamed for signing all the duds and Levein the good ones . Did you not read my post???

 

Craig Levein is yesterday's man , the modern game having passed him by. Yes, he knows Berra from before...we all know that but if you are giving him credit for good signings you have to blame him for the expensive flops. The imbalance in the squad is Levein's fault, the poor tactics are Levein's fault and the lack of creativity and pace is Levein's fault.

 

Ian Cathro did not set the team up against Mwell last week and it will not be Ian Cathro's teams that have failed to score in a league game against Hibs in an entire season for the first time in 45 years!!!  Ian Cathro's team did not get pumped out of Europe by a team of Maltese Waiters either.  

 

I would imagine that, having worked in the Premiership, La Liga and the Portuguese top flight,  Cathro will have a more useful list of contacts than Levein. Deferring to bigimobilestrikers.com and his old mucker John Colquhoun will not get us the players that will drive us forward.  You bash on though and throw your money at the present regime - it's a free country- but expect to be served up the attritional tripe that we've endured in the last 4 away games. 

 

The club needs a new direction and I would imagine that AB is running out of patience, as I am in with some of the deluded nonsense on here, and I would expect a Budgemont Day 2 shortly.

 

Trying to reason with you is like playing chess with a pigeon.

 

I frankly can't be arsed repeating for the 45th time what I've told you throughout this thread, because all you do is cycle back to a previous argument I have already covered.  Read the posts and learn something.

 

Who (from the available players) would you have played in the derby last Friday that would have made any difference?   Injuries have buckled us in the past few weeks but keep on bashing away about tactics and a mythical saviour manager who will come in and win the league next year.

 

Wake up and smell the coffee - you need a serious reality check as real life football management isn't learned on Championship Manager.  Romanov has gone, and so have the days of spending beyond our means.  We will get benefits with the new stand, but are having to pay for it now.

[ford donald]

12 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Disagree. Minority want him out. 

If we agree that some want him out and some want him to stay does that mean we have reached consensus?

 

There is a growing consensus that the current regime has failed.

[151]

2 minutes ago, JKBMod 10 said:

@cuddledoon check your PMs please.

 

 

 

[davemclaren]

27 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

Craig Levein was already an employee when Cathro was sacked. His qualifications for the job were known at that time but we didn't appoint him. We elected to open the job up for applicants and went through a process to recruit externally. At some stage for whatever reasons (and we can speculate all day on what those were) we changed our mind and appointed an employee previously overlooked or discounted ( again we can speculate all day long as to why he was initially discounted or overlooked). If nothing else this wasted 3 weeks at a vital part of the pre-season.

I agree that valuable time was lost. 

[sadj]

4 minutes ago, scott herbertson said:

 

I wouldn’t say im pro Levein , more anti sacking him. I like the approach he takes to building a team (good central defensive partnership, good goalie, big man up front, gives youth its chance).

 

on the down side he is cautious at times (everyone back for corners) , and I doubt if he will change his approach easily.

 

i don’t think we have much option but to give him time. Until Christmas would be my thinking. Summer signings will have already been set up in many cases so I don’t think it would be easy for a completely new managerial team.

 

Well said , I love Levein but im also not going to say hes the answer for ever. He builds from the back which is a good thing. Problem is Adao , Demi and Djoum were vital pieces to balance and creativity. Adao gives a platform to play from. Confidence is still not good in the team when it is going a goal down wont be the end of the game. Fitness is poor. Were making the best of a bad situation. Everyone back at corners and defending is the way a few good teams play (Zenit did it against Celtic at home for instance) but we are not breaking forward we lump it clear and its back on top of us. Confidence is low so we sit deep and try and be too cautious. (Thats a managerial and player thing) Football is hard to watch at the moment but its the knolwedge it wont always be like that that gets me through

[sadj]

42 minutes ago, redm said:

 

No, that's not what I'm getting at. It's a follow up to the idea that we're mid-plan and the person managing us through that plan should be given time rather than stopping now and asking someone else to draw up something completely new, designed to address exactly the same challenges but with only a fraction of the knowledge of our players or predicament. I think it's daft when we can see progress has been made and coupled with Levein's track record, there's every reason to think progress will continue too.

 

Levein was DoF sure but it wasn't his signings. Now it is his signings. He has a great track record as a manager, and that's now how he's being judged primarily.

Again well said , but falls on deaf ears on here unforunately. 

[All Out Attack]

15 minutes ago, soonbe110 said:

Disagree. Minority want him out. 

If we agree that some want him out and some want him to stay does that mean we have reached consensus?

Even back at the Ross County game up at Dingwall about a month ago, there were serious rumblings about Levein after it and we never even lost it.

 

It does tend to be the travelling support who lose patience first as and although I didn't go to Ibrox, our support had cleared out of Easter Road with 10 minutes still to go.

 

JKB isn't always reflective of the wider Hearts support or on social media as was evident under Cathro. 

[redm]

13 minutes ago, All Out Attack said:

I know what you are getting at. 

 

What I would say,  is that his previous track record as manger saw a 10% - 15% drop in attendances,  right across his previous 4 year stint and this was from a much lower starting point than we have now.  

 

Looking at Craig Levein's responsibilities from the 'meet the board'  section of the Hearts Web site, it is about achieving success on the field. To this end and any way you now look upon it  he has failed. 

 

RESPONSIBILITIES: Executive role, principally responsible for setting the strategy to achieve success on the field and for the day-to-day running of the football side of the business, supported by his management team based at Riccarton.

 

 

Woah, you can't go drawing narrow assumptions from attendances stats when a million different things can affect it. Not just the manager. If you look at the wider set of stats you potentially see lots of interesting patterns, and in particular patterns of peaks and then gradual drops around the time and following cup wins. You also see one around the time we're winning heaps of games in the Championship and then the subsequent impact that season (and the post-admin/saved our club feel good factor)  had on attendances at Tynie.

 

Most importantly, Craig Levein was also manager during a pretty turbulent time at the club with Vlad only appearing in around August 2004.

 

There will be loads of other things you need to take into consideration too.

 

1993-94 25 10917

1994-95 22 10186

1995-96 22 13142

1996-97 24 12628

1997-98 22 16642 *

1998-99 22 13966

1999-00 19 14115

2000-01 24 12346

2001-02 21 11974

2002-03 20 11758

2003-04 24 12219

2004-05 26 13030

2005-06 23 18155 *

2006-07 22 18604

2007-08 21 15566

2008-09 21 14093

2009-10 22 13766

2010-11 21 13416

2011-12 23 12912 *

2012-13 21 12971

2013-14 5 14024

2014-15  15985

2015-16 16582

2016-17 16338

 

 

[All Out Attack]

8 minutes ago, sadj said:

Well said , I love Levein but im also not going to say hes the answer for ever. He builds from the back which is a good thing. Problem is Adao , Demi and Djoum were vital pieces to balance and creativity. Adao gives a platform to play from. Confidence is still not good in the team when it is going a goal down wont be the end of the game. Fitness is poor. Were making the best of a bad situation. Everyone back at corners and defending is the way a few good teams play (Zenit did it against Celtic at home for instance) but we are not breaking forward we lump it clear and its back on top of us. Confidence is low so we sit deep and try and be too cautious. (Thats a managerial and player thing) Football is hard to watch at the moment but its the knolwedge it wont always be like that that gets me through

Fitness is poor... 

 

I don't believe this for a second and if it was true Levein should be sacked in the spot for allowing it. 

[Mars plastic]

This All Out Attack chap certainly knows his stuff. Carry on, chap.

[MadJock]

11 minutes ago, All Out Attack said:

Fitness is poor... 

 

I don't believe this for a second and if it was true Levein should be sacked in the spot for allowing it. 

 

Totally agree,  these players are meant to be professionals, if they can't keep themself to a resonable level of fitness maybe they should be doing something diffrent.

 

if its true it also bring up the question of what do they actually do in training these days  ??

 

Another excuse to try and justify the poor product on the pitch, sorry fitness should never be an issue for a sportsperson unless its after an injury

[All Out Attack]

18 minutes ago, redm said:

 

 

Woah, you can't go drawing narrow assumptions from attendances stats when a million different things can affect it. Not just the manager. If you look at the wider set of stats you potentially see lots of interesting patterns, and in particular patterns of peaks and then gradual drops around the time and following cup wins. You also see one around the time we're winning heaps of games in the Championship and then the subsequent impact that season (and the post-admin/saved our club feel good factor)  had on attendances at Tynie.

 

Most importantly, Craig Levein was also manager during a pretty turbulent time at the club with Vlad only appearing in around August 2004.

 

There will be loads of other things you need to take into consideration too.

 

1993-94 25 10917

1994-95 22 10186

1995-96 22 13142

1996-97 24 12628

1997-98 22 16642 *

1998-99 22 13966

1999-00 19 14115

2000-01 24 12346

2001-02 21 11974

2002-03 20 11758

2003-04 24 12219

2004-05 26 13030

2005-06 23 18155 *

2006-07 22 18604

2007-08 21 15566

2008-09 21 14093

2009-10 22 13766

2010-11 21 13416

2011-12 23 12912 *

2012-13 21 12971

2013-14 5 14024

2014-15  15985

2015-16 16582

2016-17 16338

 

 

I fully acknowledge some of the financial issues, however you can still make assumptions. 

 

Many people on this thread have stated how successful Levein was last time and we are constantly reminded everyone how good his record was. I do remember this era vividly myself so I'm under no illusions here.  

 

The bottom line is, if we were so successful and playing a style of football we all wanted to see,  would we have seen any attendance drop. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by All Out Attack

[Enzo Chiefo]

37 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Trying to reason with you is like playing chess with a pigeon.

 

I frankly can't be arsed repeating for the 45th time what I've told you throughout this thread, because all you do is cycle back to a previous argument I have already covered.  Read the posts and learn something.

 

Who (from the available players) would you have played in the derby last Friday that would have made any difference?   Injuries have buckled us in the past few weeks but keep on bashing away about tactics and a mythical saviour manager who will come in and win the league next year.

 

Wake up and smell the coffee - you need a serious reality check as real life football management isn't learned on Championship Manager.  Romanov has gone, and so have the days of spending beyond our means.  We will get benefits with the new stand, but are having to pay for it now.

You've not covered any previous arguments but you are off at another tangent. Never played Championship Manager so don't relate to that at all , old son. Are we really the only club in the  country who rules out changing our manager because "whae else is thurrr????. Frightening how little aspiration there is in the pro Levein camp. The squad is so poorly balanced because Levein has presided over the signing policy for nearly 4 years...and you want to give him another window.  We don't need a Pep or a Jose just a manager that knows what he's doing and can set the team up in a formation that can score goals and win games. Making the best of the resources we have. I hope you finally understand the argument. 

[frankblack]

4 minutes ago, Enzo Chiefo said:

You've not covered any previous arguments but you are off at another tangent. Never played Championship Manager so don't relate to that at all , old son. Are we really the only club in the  country who rules out changing our manager because "whae else is thurrr????. Frightening how little aspiration there is in the pro Levein camp. The squad is so poorly balanced because Levein has presided over the signing policy for nearly 4 years...and you want to give him another window.  We don't need a Pep or a Jose just a manager that knows what he's doing and can set the team up in a formation that can score goals and win games. Making the best of the resources we have. I hope you finally understand the argument. 

 

You really don't get it; do you?

 

- No manager can set an unbalanced team up with no midfield, width, or pace and do much more than we have.

- Change of manager isn't affordable right now.

- Focus needs to be on building a far better team by end of the summer.

 

I am not pro Levein, just don't think this is the right time for a change.  Recruitment for next season should be underway now.  

 

Do we sack the manager and wait until say May to recruit a replacement before planning for next season? That would be a disaster and waste most of the window getting started.

[sadj]

1 hour ago, All Out Attack said:

Fitness is poor... 

 

I don't believe this for a second and if it was true Levein should be sacked in the spot for allowing it. 

Then i explained what my thought is on your position. In comparison to teams who had a proper preseason our fitness is lacking. Were off the pace in most games. You cannot sort that during the season. 

It is also not Leveins fault so that just shows what your agenda is. IC took preseason and that was because that was what his job was. If he felt that was the way to go he needed backed up. 

 

What @redm said earlier was spot on  aswell as @soonbe110 and @Ryder etc. 

 

Theres a whole lot more to it than simply Levein is crap. Hes in the firing line and deserves some criticism but not to the level hes getting nor for some of thenagenda driven drivel that is spouted. If you have ever been in football at a good level or have a pragmatic outlook on things you would understand that. 

 

Now if you dont agree thats fine but make your argument against the points sensible or just dont quote me. You know I rarely agree with your positions and theres a reason for it as Iv stated many times. Primary one being personal experience.

[Hendricks]

2 hours ago, cuddledoon said:

 

Posters might find it helpful if that thread can be summarised, and some balance found.

The following is written on the assumption that the vast majority of posters are true Jambos, care about our Club deeply, and want the very best for HMFC, despite having very contrasting views about Craig Levein, ranging from one extreme – he is a top manager – to the other extreme – he needs punted immediately.

It seems, having read through the entire thread, that there is little chance of a consensus.

It is not unreasonable to hold strong views, indeed it can produce healthy debate, but what is surely unnecessary is the poisonous nature of some of the posts, involving personal insults, name calling and the like. If we do want the best for our Club, we need to pull together, debate yes, be passionate and committed to a view, but respect the views of fellow Jambos.

Those supporting CL feel that the very best outcome will be CL turning us in to a top three side, with good cup runs, given another summer transfer window and another full season, with improved and experienced players introduced, and a more attacking mind-set.

Those who feel that CL’s time is up point to recent results (particularly at Motherwell and Hibs), to the low number of wins and goals, to the unadventurous style of play under CL, to the errors in long-term contract signings, and indeed to his record of having won nothing in his career.

Some posters are accused of being in CL’s pocket – indeed that he has people make positive and complimentary posts on his behalf. They argue that AB believes in him, that he has had to sort out the mess he inherited, that money had to go to the new stand rather than to CL to improve the squad, that only with time will the necessary improvements been seen on the park, and subsequent results improve – and indeed that there is no-one better as Coach, no-one more committed to the Club, than CL.

Other posters are accused of having personal agendas against CL and have a dislike for him, and therefore are unable to give him the chance to correct mistakes made. They allege that :  he is arrogant, stubborn, never willing to admit mistakes, is a bully both in and out of the Club, has a propensity for gambling regularly, even alleging past issues re his relationships.

It is clear that there are many posters who take a more middle-line.  Whilst there appears to be an increasing number who have begun to lose faith in CL as a result of the results and performances of the cup tie and the derby, there are many who do not want to judge him until next season.

Despite all the views expressed in the thread “Levein is not the answer,” it would seem very unlikely, even if we failed to make the top six (equally unlikely) that, given her support of and feelings for CL, AB will be persuaded to make significant changes this season. 

 

 

What is abundantly clear is that after a period of sustained togetherness and the support collectively backing the club in virtually all regards we are now completely divided. That division is worsening week on week culminating diring Friday’s latest pathetic derby effort with Hearts fans both verbally and physically fighting with each other. That unhealthy and poisonous atmosphere is so disappointing given the historic way the fans have saved the club. We have gone from a feel good factor and great hope for the future to significant disillusionment, apathy and anger and there are only 2 people to blame for where we now find ourselves.

 

Budge has allowed herself to be hoodwinked and played by a very smart and manipulative operator in Levein. To have passed all the power to him

was naive beyond belief, the fact he’s remained on the board quite bewildering and a total conflict of interests. The farce that was his appointment a massive dark cloud over their ability to get things right moving forward. And that’s before one delves into the abysmal season we are enduring with stats like 9 wins in 30 league games (14 in the last 50 SPL games - Hibs have 14 this season!), less than a goal a game, no semi finals or finals yet again, the haphazard and short term approach to squad building etc etc. The reality is that Levein has lost too much of the fan base and there will be no recovery for him. He’s a dead duck and it’s only a matter of time now. As it was for Cathro before him. All momentum has been lost and he doesn’t have the personality, drive, ambition and certainly not the positive approach to turn things around. You only need look at the dismal but entirely predictable shitshow at Motherwell to see that he’s learned not a jot despite his previous cup losses with at Hearts to Dundee, Ross County, ICT, Falkirk and Kilmarnock. 

 

What will happen in the short term? Nothing. Budge will continue to back him regardless of ST sales or how many people actually turn up. I’d hazard a guess thousands of ST holders won’t attend the Partick game on Saturday yet again. It’s a shite state of affairs but we are on the long road to nowhere unless we see a total overhaul of our first team coaching department. 

Edited March 12, 2018 by Hendricks

[1874robbo]

1 hour ago, Mars plastic said:

This All Out Attack chap certainly knows his stuff. Carry on, chap.

You not still banned!!!!! Ffs that’s all we need.

[sadj]

7 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

You really don't get it; do you?

 

- No manager can set an unbalanced team up with no midfield, width, or pace and do much more than we have.

- Change of manager isn't affordable right now.

- Focus needs to be on building a far better team by end of the summer.

 

I am not pro Levein, just don't think this is the right time for a change.  Recruitment for next season should be underway now.  

 

Do we sack the manager and wait until say May to recruit a replacement before planning for next season? That would be a disaster and waste most of the window getting started.

Dont mention unbalanced that doesnt get through peoples heads. Adao is crap remember and brings nothing to the team. Djoum is crap and brings nothing to the team etc etc etc. 

 

We need to rebalance our squad and from there if Levein doesnt work out a new person coming in has a blueprint to work from. The lunacy being spouted on here is insane.