Catalonia referendum

[Gorgiewave]

http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/abci-caida-suelo-bolsa-urna-y-papeletas-votacion-crea-debate-redes-201710011243_noticia.html

 

Video here.

[Psychedelicropcircle]

90% vote to leave, GW hurting.

[glynnlondon]

Stay or go accepted into eu or not either way the krauts will be calling the shots.

[Sten Guns]

I don?t particularly care about Spanish politics. I don?t particularly care if Catalonia became independant or not. I look at this without blinkers. Without a preset agenda. Unlike most of you.

 

The reason I get involved in this sort of thread is the amount of people who lie to themselves about what?s going is embarrassing. Who cherry pick their pictures. Who deny this was illegal. Folk like this need called out on their virtue signalling pish.

[Mr Sifter]

I don?t particularly care about Spanish politics. I don?t particularly care if Catalonia became independant or not. I look at this without blinkers. Without a preset agenda. Unlike most of you.

 

The reason I get involved in this sort of thread is the amount of people who lie to themselves about what?s going is embarrassing. Who cherry pick their pictures. Who deny this was illegal. Folk like this need called out on their virtue signalling pish.

I posted pictures. And someone suggested you'd be along to defend against those pics. I purposely chose not to respond cos I didn't think it was fair to accuse you of doin somethin you'd not yet done.

 

...yet here you are, and it kind of feels like you're doin just that?!!

 

As I've said, I know very little of the situation. I'm neither here nor there. But the images are shocking. Unarmed women gettin battered up and down. No one in their right mind can stand up and defend the police here, surely?

[Sooperstar]

http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/abci-caida-suelo-bolsa-urna-y-papeletas-votacion-crea-debate-redes-201710011243_noticia.html

 

Video here.

Surely just a case of the bags containing both the ballot box and the voting cards. You know, the things needed to have a vote. There is no evidence that those were completed voting cards or that they were already in the box.

[AlphonseCapone]

I don?t particularly care about Spanish politics. I don?t particularly care if Catalonia became independant or not. I look at this without blinkers. Without a preset agenda. Unlike most of you.

 

The reason I get involved in this sort of thread is the amount of people who lie to themselves about what?s going is embarrassing. Who cherry pick their pictures. Who deny this was illegal. Folk like this need called out on their virtue signalling pish.

you're one of the most biased posters going.

 

The referendum was illegal, does that justify police brutality? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

176,566 no voters turned out to exercise their democratic right. Good on them.

Sounds like a solid basis for UDI, right enough.

[King prawn]

you're one of the most biased posters going.

 

The referendum was illegal, does that justify police brutality? A simple yes or no will suffice.

This is the point some people are missing.

 

Two possible reactions to a referendum taking place after it was deemed to be unconstitutional:

 

A) Bash some old woman's face in with a stick and hit a guy in a wheelchair (and cause injury to 400 more)

 

B ) Allow the referendum to take place but analyse the outcome as it had already been deemed to be illegal.

[Sten Guns]

?Biased poster?

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

90% vote to leave, GW hurting.

Looks like it.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I?m no legal expert but I think that the Spanish Government May be acting illegally by not allowing any referendums on Independence from the Spanish State. Article 1 of the UN?

 

 

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There would be more of a case if the Catalans hadn't already lost in court but decided to ignore that in any case.

 

I personally think both the Catalan bloke and Rajoy should resign for causing this fiasco.

[Don Dan]

Yes, but if you're stopped for speeding then you're unlikely to be hammered over the head with a truncheon, aren't you? Reaction should be proportionate.

 

A misuse of the word "evil"? Have you seen some of the photos coming out of Catalonia?

 

That motto of yours is obviously there for comedic purposes or to make you look interesting because, given what you've said, it appears you don't actually know the difference between good and evil. It's a very murky ground most of the time, admittedly, but battering peaceful protestors is in no way on the "good" side of the spectrum.

 

I would expect to be hammered if I protested and tried to prevent the police doing their duty.

 

The motto is not there for comedic purposes.

 

The initial response from protesters (not all) was not peaceful. The policeman entering the illegal polling station was felled by a well aimed chair. Other police making their way to a station had street barriers thrown at them. These protesters were not on the "good" side of the spectrum as you put it.

 

 

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[AlphonseCapone]

?Biased poster?

 

Can't answer the question. What a shocker.

[redm]

Thanks for the response GW (& Dannie) but I'm still not clear on which law the individual voters are breaking by putting a cross in a box on a piece of paper.

 

The referendum itself is not considered to be legal and according to the Spanish courts and govt it will not be legally recognised but what law was put in place making it a crime to vote in it?

[Gorgiewave]

Looks like it.

A team, A, that's been below another, B, in the league all season plays at home to B. A win for A will win them their first league title. A draw and B retain the league. Game played behind closed doors, no press present, the referee, assistant referee and fourth official are chairman of A's personal friends and lifelong A season ticket holders. Rules changed one minute before kick-off to allow players who're not even signed for either team to play. Unlimited substitutions allowed.

 

Result: A 9-1 B.

 

Now, is this the most glorious way to clinch a league ever, better than Arsenal in 1989 or Man City in 2014? Or is it dodgy as feck and will be assumed to have taken place in a corrupt country?

[pablo]

What an utter shambles. Very unsavoury scenes and cool heads are required all round now.

[Pans Jambo]

 

I'm not getting the bit about the EU. Did she mean if Catalonia got their independence they would leave the EU? I deem this very important when trying to figure out what's going on.

 

 

Yes, she meant if they won independence they would no longer be part of the EU gang and would need to re-apply.

 

Same thing we heard during the Scottish Indy Referendum.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

   

 

Yes, she meant if they won independence they would no longer be part of the EU gang and would need to re-apply.

 

Same thing we heard during the Scottish Indy Referendum.

 

And also 100% accurate.

[Pans Jambo]

 

And also 100% accurate.

 

 

Yeah it is but its not like they are Albania or even Turkey. They already work in line with all EU policies and laws etc. I would not imaging that it would be a very large hurdle to get back in IF thats what they wanted.

[Gorgiewave]

Thanks for the response GW (& Dannie) but I'm still not clear on which law the individual voters are breaking by putting a cross in a box on a piece of paper.

 

The referendum itself is not considered to be legal and according to the Spanish courts and govt it will not be legally recognised but what law was put in place making it a crime to vote in it?

According to what I've read in the press, it's not illegal to vote, but it is illegal to hold the vote. Hence closing schools, seizing ballot papers, removing people who wanted to vote. Organisers allowing that was illegal. Preventing the vote taking place would prevent the law actually being broken (by the organisers, not those voting).

[Don Dan]

Thanks for the response GW (& Dannie) but I'm still not clear on which law the individual voters are breaking by putting a cross in a box on a piece of paper.

 

The referendum itself is not considered to be legal and according to the Spanish courts and govt it will not be legally recognised but what law was put in place making it a crime to vote in it?

 

This might help explain the situation in Catalonia. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/01/eu-crisis-catalonian-referendum-descends-violence/

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

  

 

Yeah it is but its not like they are Albania or even Turkey. They already work in line with all EU policies and laws etc. I would not imaging that it would be a very large hurdle to get back in IF thats what they wanted.

Really?

 

If the Catalans declared UDI do you think Spain would support EU membership? Seriously?

[Taffin]

I don?t particularly care about Spanish politics. I don?t particularly care if Catalonia became independant or not. I look at this without blinkers. Without a preset agenda. Unlike most of you.

 

The reason I get involved in this sort of thread is the amount of people who lie to themselves about what?s going is embarrassing. Who cherry pick their pictures. Who deny this was illegal. Folk like this need called out on their virtue signalling pish.

You absolutely have blinkers.

 

State says, you do. Your blinkered by your own slavish following to authority.

 

Everyone has accepted that the referendum itself is illegal but questioned whatis illegal about the actions of those being beaten today was. A question you've never answered.

[redm]

According to what I've read in the press, it's not illegal to vote, but it is illegal to hold the vote. Hence closing schools, seizing ballot papers, removing people who wanted to vote. Organisers allowing that was illegal. Preventing the vote taking place would prevent the law actually being broken (by the organisers, not those voting).

Which would mean the people taking part were breaking no laws at all, right?

 

Edit: is it even definitely illegal to organise the vote itself? Was something put in place to criminalise the event or the act of holding a vote after the SC confirmed the referendum wouldn't be lawful? I haven't read much on this part yet.

[Boris]

Really?

 

If the Catalans declared UDI do you think Spain would support EU membership? Seriously?

 

And therein lies the paradox of the EU.

 

One concern of those who are Eurosceptic, let us say, is that the EU wants to dominate, that it rejects nations own sovereignty.

 

Yet, and a lot of the times it is the same voices, when a part of an EU country wishes to go it alone they are told you can't join the EU, the EU doesn't like that as it weakens the nation state.

 

But what does the nation state matter if everyone is in the EU, that overseer and dominant force that neuters the nation state?

 

If Spain is in the EU, it would make sense for an independent Catalonia to be in the EU too, should it wish to.

[redm]

This might help explain the situation in Catalonia.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/01/eu-crisis-catalonian-referendum-descends-violence/

Thank you. I get all of that but none of this explains why you think a voter has committed an illegal act or broken a law. The referendum itself was not considered legally sound but that doesn't automatically mean voters participating in an illegal referendum are then breaking laws.

[Justin Z]

I note that you were exceptionally dismissive of accusations of impropriety such as ballot box tampering in the Scottish independence referendum, is there a reason you're so accepting on this occasion?

 

Nailed that one on.

[Unknown user]

The ballot box is being taken into the polling station before voting. In a black bin liner. Unfortunately, the woman carrying it slips on the wet ground and ballot papers fall out...before the voting. A Limmy sketch right there.

 

In 2014, the allegations were based on photos taken from a distance of incorrectly identified piles of paper. The relevant officials explained the misunderstanding. And MI5 were allegedly involved. But MI5 are so bad at their job that it only takes an eagle-eyed Yes voting sleuth to see through their antics.

 

It's like the Skibbereen Eagle. They could see, from their vantage point in a small town in Ireland, exactly what the Tsar's game was and they solemnly warned him not to try any more funny business.

I'll look into it when I have time. I'm sure most will forgive my scepticism, after all the second most predictable thing after the police getting out of hand was you coming along to say it's all a big fraud.

 

In the meantime, I had a quick search to see what neutral observers were saying - no mention of what you were talking about but mentions of being shocked by police violence and reports of confiscated ballot boxes among other things.

 

Of course, all of these doubts could have been avoided if the Spanish state had done the responsible thing and allowed the people of catalonia their democratic voice using official means.

[Justin Z]

Thanks for the response GW (& Dannie) but I'm still not clear on which law the individual voters are breaking by putting a cross in a box on a piece of paper.

 

The referendum itself is not considered to be legal and according to the Spanish courts and govt it will not be legally recognised but what law was put in place making it a crime to vote in it?

 

Your questions are valid, of course.  And thoughtful.  I liken the use of "illegal vote" to justify police brutality against individuals to the way people misuse "illegal immigrant" in the States (it is not actually a criminal violation to overstay a visa, but a civil one).  But when someone is such a dyed-in-the-wool statist that they can't take two seconds from their authority fellating to look around at what's actually happening--just stop and think for two seconds--questions like yours are going to fly right over their heads.

 

So don't expect any kind of sensible answer, or even comprehension of what you're asking.

[redjambo]

I would expect to be hammered if I protested and tried to prevent the police doing their duty.

 

The motto is not there for comedic purposes.

 

The initial response from protesters (not all) was not peaceful. The policeman entering the illegal polling station was felled by a well aimed chair. Other police making their way to a station had street barriers thrown at them. These protesters were not on the "good" side of the spectrum as you put it.

 

 

No, you are correct about those particular instances if they happened - those were certainly not good actions by those particular protestors. But you can't take individual occurrences and extrapolate those to the whole situation. The overall picture coming out of Catalonia is one where protestors attempted, by and large, to practice large-scale peaceful civic disobedience and in many cases they were very forcibly dealt with, having violence used against them that was incommensurate with the situation. We're talking about a reaction to the protestors that wouldn't be out of place in Erdogan's Turkey or in a third-world country. There is no way that we could or should condone such violence by the police against its people, whatever the legality of the referendum.

[Gorgiewave]

Your questions are valid, of course. And thoughtful. I liken the use of "illegal vote" to justify police brutality against individuals to the way people misuse "illegal immigrant" in the States (it is not actually a criminal violation to overstay a visa, but a civil one). But when someone is such a dyed-in-the-wool statist that they can't take two seconds from their authority fellating to look around at what's actually happening--just stop and think for two seconds--questions like yours are going to fly right over their heads.

 

So don't expect any kind of sensible answer, or even comprehension of what you're asking.

Quite right. It's just a shame that the Confederate States of America weren't allowed to just leave. I mean, they really, really wanted to, didn't they? That why Lincoln's such a barsteward: anti-democratic. Use of force included.

[Don Dan]

Thank you. I get all of that but none of this explains why you think a voter has committed an illegal act or broken a law. The referendum itself was not considered legally sound but that doesn't automatically mean voters participating in an illegal referendum are then breaking laws.

 The voter is breaking the law by taking part in the illegal vote. Is my understanding of it. The situation escalated when the police were prevented from confiscating the polling papers and equipment. We all see very emotive photos and videos which don't always depict what is actually happening. Also who do you believe in this  "The Spanish deputy prime minister, Soraya S?enz de Santamar?a, blasted the Catalan government?s ?irresponsibility? in insisting on holding an ?illegal referendum with no democratic guarantees?, demanding that they end what she described as a ?farce?. or the Catalan regional government who claim the opposite. 

[jack D and coke]

I hope they catch the duplicate voters although I don't see much evidence of that being widespread, the links you supply seem long on chat and short on evidence. I didn't see anything on the box with votes falling out has that been verified?

 

I note that you were exceptionally dismissive of accusations of impropriety such as ballot box tampering in the Scottish independence referendum, is there a reason you're so accepting on this occasion?

[emoji1]

Absolutely

[Justin Z]

Quite right. It's just a shame that the Confederate States of America weren't allowed to just leave. I mean, they really, really wanted to, didn't they? That why Lincoln's such a barsteward: anti-democratic. Use of force included.

 

Please do point out where in history federal authorities came to polling places in the South where individual people were voting on the secession issue and clubbed them.  I'm sure you're full of examples.  And when you point them out, I'll happily agree: Bad call by the government in power in that particular instance.  Go on then.

 

People going out and voting, people exercising their human right to peaceful protest--these are the topics at hand.  Not civil wars between state bodies that happened a century and a half ago.

[Gorgiewave]

Please do point out where in history federal authorities came to polling places in the South where individual people were voting on the secession issue and clubbed them. I'm sure you're full of examples. And when you point them out, I'll happily agree: Bad call by the government in power in that particular instance. Go on then.

 

People going out and voting, people exercising their human right to peaceful protest--these are the topics at hand. Not civil wars between state bodies that happened a century and a half ago.

The common denominator is that governments don't, and shouldn't, just allow parts of their territory to secede either violently (USA) or fraudulently (Spain). It's like a branch of a company deciding that it's a new company. They feel distant from head office, so bye bye. Naw, dinnae hinksae, pal.

[redjambo]

 The voter is breaking the law by taking part in the illegal vote. Is my understanding of it. The situation escalated when the police were prevented from confiscating the polling papers and equipment. We all see very emotive photos and videos which don't always depict what is actually happening. Also who do you believe in this  "The Spanish deputy prime minister, Soraya S?enz de Santamar?a, blasted the Catalan government?s ?irresponsibility? in insisting on holding an ?illegal referendum with no democratic guarantees?, demanding that they end what she described as a ?farce?. or the Catalan regional government who claim the opposite. 

 

Don't forget the eyewitness statements made by biased observers who didn't understand what was happening at the time.

 

I just love people who argue their opinions while dismissing any evidence which opposes, or even simply doesn't back up, those opinions. "Blinkered" in the extreme. Sadly there are a lot of them around.

 

Seriously, clear your mind DB, watch the videos, look at the photos, read the newspaper reports and eyewitness statements, give yourself a wee knock on the head, and try considering the situation as a neutral. You may find the results illuminating.

[Justin Z]

The common denominator is that governments don't, and shouldn't, just allow parts of their territory to secede either violently (USA) or fraudulently (Spain). It's like a branch of a company deciding that it's a new company. They feel distant from head office, so bye bye. Naw, dinnae hinksae, pal.

 

That may be a common denominator in the context of the red herring you've introduced, but it still has absolutely nothing to do with the problem people have about how this has been handled by the government.

 

I concede it is easier to deflect and hand-wave than just own up and say "right, I still feel strongly this was an illegitimate action, but this wasn't the way to deal with it".  But it's not good argumentation, it's not good for your critical thinking faculties, and it makes you look unreasonable.

[Don Dan]

Don't forget the eyewitness statements made by biased observers who didn't understand what was happening at the time.

 

I just love people who argue their opinions while dismissing any evidence which opposes, or even simply doesn't back up, those opinions. "Blinkered" in the extreme. Sadly there are a lot of them around.

 

Seriously, clear your mind DW, watch the videos, look at the photos, read the newspaper reports and eyewitness statements, give yourself a wee knock on the head, and try considering the situation as a neutral. You may find the results illuminating.

 

I feel your love. I'm always doing what you suggest in your last sentence. That's why I see and read about the prevention of police doing their duty and being attacked in the process. The media focus in this instance is on the police reaction and not what caused it. 

[Gorgiewave]

Here's a detailed account of the background and law:

 

http://verfassungsblog.de/the-catalunya-conundrum-part-1-how-could-things-come-to-such-a-pass/

[redjambo]

I feel your love. I'm always doing what you suggest in your last sentence. That's why I see and read about the prevention of police doing their duty and being attacked in the process. The media focus in this instance is on the police reaction and not what caused it. 

 

You can't be, I'm afraid to say, because if you were then you could not be coming out with the conclusions that you are. Unless you have an agenda of some sort, or are looking at life with a very specific filter that rejects what you don't want to see. And that is worrying.

[Gorgiewave]

Here's the Spanish Constitution:

 

http://www.congreso.es/portal/page/portal/Congreso/Congreso/Hist_Normas/Norm/const_espa_texto_ingles_0.pdf

[Don Dan]

Do I have to come to the same conclusion as you?! You're right and I'm wrong based on your interpretation of what happening.

I think not.

 

 

 

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[redjambo]

Do I have to come to the same conclusion as you?! You're right and I'm wrong based on your interpretation of what happening.

I think not.

 

Ha ha. Do you think that this is about you and me?

 

This is about a body of evidence, still growing, which clearly indicates the use of inordinate force and violence by police against largely peaceful protestors, used moreover in a situation where that police action had no real effect, and couldn't be expected to have an effect on the outcome anyway given the scale of the protest.

 

And you condone that? Really?

[Don Dan]

Ha ha. Do you think that this is about you and me?

 

This is about a body of evidence, still growing, which clearly indicates the use of inordinate force and violence by police against largely peaceful protestors, used moreover in a situation where that police action had no real effect, and couldn't be expected to have an effect on the outcome anyway given the scale of the protest.

 

And you condone that? Really?

These protesters broke the law are you condoning that?

 

 

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[Justin Z]

These protesters broke the law are you condoning that?

 

 

 

Breaking a law that you feel--and with at least some justification--is manifestly unjust . . .  many would argue that is a perfectly moral thing to do.  Proportionality in the enforcement of law and order is universally accepted as imperative in all the treatises on government I've ever read.  Even going back as far as the Code of Hammurabi, where we see an extremely rough-around-the-edges form of that ideal for the first time with the institution of "an eye for an eye".

 

I still haven't gotten stuck in to Gorgiewave's links but had a quick skim.  Even if we accept Spanish law as supreme and legitimate, which we're not required to, scapegoating and summarily punishing individuals with extreme physical force for (presumed for the sake of argument) an illegal action by a sub-government body is extremely problematic from a human rights perspective.

[doctor jambo]

The trouble is that the Spanish govt are in a no win situation- allow the vote and if it favours independence then what?

Ignore the "democratic will of the people" ?

That would likely inflame things more as they demanded the vote respected.

 

OR

 

Stop the vote,

 

And you can call it police heavy handedness , but its fairly typical of continental policing

French and Spanish police at, say, football games are fairly happy to wade in

 

Its no different to that, we're just not used to it

 

England footie fan lobs a chair from a bar, 100 riot police wade in with batons and club shit out of everyone .

[Gorgiewave]

That may be a common denominator in the context of the red herring you've introduced, but it still has absolutely nothing to do with the problem people have about how this has been handled by the government.

 

I concede it is easier to deflect and hand-wave than just own up and say "right, I still feel strongly this was an illegitimate action, but this wasn't the way to deal with it".  But it's not good argumentation, it's not good for your critical thinking faculties, and it makes you look unreasonable.

 

I don't think it was a good way to deal with it, no. I'd have allowed it to go ahead, highlighted the ways in which the result was unreliable and, indeed, laughable (no agreed electoral register, multiple voting, votes taking place in people's houses, etc.) and then allowed that to be the international verdict: the Catalan separatists are chancers. I'd then have planned for if and when they declared independence, to take more serious measures, including arrests if necessary.

 

The police were acting on court orders, but I don't think it was an intelligent use of the police.

[redjambo]

These protesters broke the law are you condoning that?

 

I think you still don't get it. Whether or not the protesters broke the law is a side issue in this case - it is a mantra which is allowing you to take your eyes off the bigger and more important issue. What is at issue is the disproportionate and violent actions of the police against peacefully protesting folk. There was simply no need for such brutality.

 

I would certainly not condone any violence committed by the protestors in the cases where this may have occurred. From all accounts however, such protestor violence was sporadic and exceptional, in no way matched by the violence exhibited by many of the police.

[Justin Z]

I don't think it was a good way to deal with it, no. I'd have allowed it to go ahead, highlighted the ways in which the result was unreliable and, indeed, laughable (no agreed electoral register, multiple voting, votes taking place in people's houses, etc.) and then allowed that to be the international verdict: the Catalan separatists are chancers. I'd then have planned for if and when they declared independence, to take more serious measures, including arrests if necessary.

 

The police were acting on court orders, but I don't think it was an intelligent use of the police.

 

Yeah.  Using the political process to point out irregularities, using the judiciary to point out illegalities--all good.  Also of course there's the paradox of such a strong-armed reaction ending up lending legitimacy to this vote.

 

Your "international verdict" bit definitely captures the overarching reality: That while this may be a conflict internal to Spain, directly affecting no one else, the ultimate outcome will be massively affected by how the rest of Europe perceive it.  Thus why this is such a massive own goal.