Catalonia referendum

[redjambo]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.scotsman.com/news/politics/hundreds-show-support-for-catalonia-at-edinburgh-protest-1-4575092/amp

 

Oh yes indeed . Must be 100 other things we could be focusing on in this city. Naaah let's have a protest about a vote in Spain.

 

Yes let's get all inward-looking and navel-gazing, forgetting we live in a world with other people. Internationalism is for fools!

 

That's definitely the Scotland I want to live in.

[AlphonseCapone]

No doubt there will be some Scots there but there are around 30,000 Spaniards living in and around Edinburgh, I daresay the majority at this were Catalans or sympathisers from other Spanish regions.

Even if they were all Scots, I respect people who'll actually get off their arses for a cause rather than the do nothing types slagging them on the internet.

 

Has the British Government spoke out against the violence or are they remaining silent for their imperialist brethren?

[luckydug]

But they aren't just "discussing the situation". They are participating in a "referendum" with the promise of a unilateral declaration of independence if they get a vote in favour, however many Catalans participate in that vote.

 

I agree Spain has handled it badly - they should have permitted an official referendum, where the nationalists would almost certainly have lost.

 

The Spanish government clearly disagrees with that view.

Otherwise they would have been happy to have the referendum.

The seperatist will probably be the majority view now.

As has been said handled very badly and using state sponsored violence on ordinary people is unforgivable.

[Bowmans_Boot]

Even if they were all Scots, I respect people who'll actually get off their arses for a cause rather than the do nothing types slagging them on the internet.

 

Has the British Government spoke out against the violence or are they remaining silent for their imperialist brethren?

Totally this. I await Mays statement about the violence being awful.

 

The number of Spanish people in Edinburgh has clearly been (very conveniently) ignored as some attempt to trivialise a very serious situation.

[DETTY29]

Apparently plastic bullets are banned in Catalonia so could any police firing them if identified be charged?

 

Or the Police chiefs that gave the orders?

[John Findlay]

Spanish Police are well known for hitting first and asking second.

[niblick1874]

So do you care about these people who are being subjected to this brutality?

 

100% with bells on.

[Boris]

100% with bells on.

Good to hear.

[Mr Sifter]

Genuinely shocked at the footage floating about on twitter. I've got no real views either way about this referendum (tbh I don't know enough to form an opinion) but watching civilians, with their hands held up, being hacked into with batons is utterly disgusted. ****ing scumbag *******s. Right hard ***** wading into defenceless wimmen with your riot gear on eh boys? Filthy ****ing dogs.

[Mr Sifter]

This dude in the wheelchair must be a right threat to the polisman with the riot shield and baton eh?

 

 

Check these ones of FIREMEN protecting the public ffs...

 

 

 

Wonder if these firemen will be so quick to run into a polismans burning hoose next time eh? Honestly, the Spanish polis are cowardly scumbag ****s.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[luckyBatistuta]

Not sure why anyone is surprised that illegal activity is being stopped by the Spanish Government.

All this chat about just letting them get on with it, then ignoring the result, it?s absurd beyond belief. Romantic, fanciful nonsense.

So you have never done anything in your life that is deemed illegal, no matter how trivial. If you have, then you'd have no problem being battered by cops with their batons and have rubber bullets fired into you. I bet if we were playing through in Glasgow and the police deemed a song we were singing was illegal and waded in to us all with batons, you'd have something to say about it.

 

It's utterly disgusting what they're doing whether it is or isn't. No excuse for their behaviour whatsoever.

[luckyBatistuta]

This dude in the wheelchair must be a right threat to the polisman with the riot shield and baton eh?

Check these ones of FIREMEN protecting the public ffs...

Wonder if these firemen will be so quick to run into a polismans burning hoose next time eh? Honestly, the Spanish polis are cowardly scumbag ****s.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

####### Cowards

[Pans Jambo]

Shocking scenes. Deafening silence from our ?leaders?.

 

There was a Spanish girl in our company last night. She was from Southern Sapain so not Catalonian. I asked her what her opinion was about the referendum. She said things that echoed what I heard during the Scottish Referendum. If they win they will be out of the EU, they have no currency, no bank of last resort, its illeagal etc. Broken record tbh.

I asked if people wanted to vote then surely they should be allowed. She just said it was illeagal. She obviously didnt care much for Catalonia as she said she would never visit Barcalona on principle.

Was interesting getting another point of view but this was before the Police waded in wearing riot gear.

[Bowmans_Boot]

So you have never done anything in your life that is deemed illegal, no matter how trivial. If you have, then you'd have no problem being battered by cops with their batons and have rubber bullets fired into you. I bet if we were playing through in Glasgow and the police deemed a song we were singing was illegal and waded in to us all with batons, you'd have something to say about it.

 

It's utterly disgusting what they're doing whether it is or isn't. No excuse for their behaviour whatsoever.

Totally, absolutely, 100% this. Great, great post.

[davemclaren]

Looks like a total overreaction by the Spanish Police.

[niblick1874]

Shocking scenes. Deafening silence from our ?leaders?.

 

There was a Spanish girl in our company last night. She was from Southern Sapain so not Catalonian. I asked her what her opinion was about the referendum. She said things that echoed what I heard during the Scottish Referendum. If they win they will be out of the EU, they have no currency, no bank of last resort, its illeagal etc. Broken record tbh.

I asked if people wanted to vote then surely they should be allowed. She just said it was illeagal. She obviously didnt care much for Catalonia as she said she would never visit Barcalona on principle.

Was interesting getting another point of view but this was before the Police waded in wearing riot gear.

 

I'm not getting the bit about the EU. Did she mean if Catalonia got their independence they would leave the EU? I deem this very important when trying to figure out what's going on.

[Francis Albert]

I'm not getting the bit about the EU. Did she mean if Catalonia got their independence they would leave the EU? I deem this very important when trying to figure out what's going on.

The EU's reaction to the possibility of Catalonian independence  has been exactly the same as their reaction to the possibility of Scottish independence. The new state would have to apply for membership. And would have to secure the agreement of all 28 or (maybe minus UK) 27 member states. Since many member states are most concerned about maintaining their states then Catalonia like Scotland would not have an easy route into EU membership. The French and Spanish will do nothing to encourage Basque separatism. Or in the case of France, Breton separatism. Italy will not encourage Lombardy separatism. And so on. The EU is all about creating a greater European state, not about breaking up existing European states.

[AlphonseCapone]

This dude in the wheelchair must be a right threat to the polisman with the riot shield and baton eh?

 

 

Check these ones of FIREMEN protecting the public ffs...

 

 

 

Wonder if these firemen will be so quick to run into a polismans burning hoose next time eh? Honestly, the Spanish polis are cowardly scumbag ****s.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aye but Sten will be along to tell us how snowflake disabled people are a threat to the Spanish state.

[CF11JamTart]

I'm not getting the bit about the EU. Did she mean if Catalonia got their independence they would leave the EU? I deem this very important when trying to figure out what's going on.

Catalunya, as far as I'm aware, isn't a state. Wouldn't be part of the EU ane presumably would have to meet criteria in order to try to join.

 

Who knows what EU's view would be, bit presumably they would be feeling uncomfortable about break-up of their member states.

[redm]

Good to see people protesting against Rajoy in Madrid. Doesn't matter if you agree with the cause, if it's peaceful and non-confrontational there's just no justification for violence from your police force. Ever. If they get away with it once, they'll do it again. You can laugh when a dog bites someone you don't like but don't be surprised when that dog turns round and bites you too.

 

If you make excuses for behaviour like this, you're complicit in setting a dangerous precedent. It can't ever be acceptable.

[Gorgiewave]

The other side of the coin:

 

 

[Ibrahim Tall]

The other side of the coin:

 

 

Odd how the police suddenly became a lot less brave when a small group threw some stones/bottles but were quite happy to belt shit out of pensioners and people with their hands up.

[JamboX2]

The Spanish state, as we know it, won't outlive me. I'll toast to the day it falls.

Really? Whilst the scenes are abhorrent they've been ordered by a political element which is a minority party in government. It'll hopefully fall after this.

 

A few Catalan bloggers are talking about how at one end Rajoy has used this to cover up corruption in his party and Puigdemont is making a lot of this to cover up cuts and alleged corruption in his right wing party.

 

Frankly - the violence today is reprehensible and should be criticised. But the more I read into the two sides the more I'm seeing how complex all this is. Hard to argue the motivations of any of this.

[JamboX2]

Good to see people protesting against Rajoy in Madrid. Doesn't matter if you agree with the cause, if it's peaceful and non-confrontational there's just no justification for violence from your police force. Ever. If they get away with it once, they'll do it again. You can laugh when a dog bites someone you don't like but don't be surprised when that dog turns round and bites you too.

 

If you make excuses for behaviour like this, you're complicit in setting a dangerous precedent. It can't ever be acceptable.

Rajoy has no majority in Parliament. This may be the catalyst to bring PSOE and Podemos together to form a coalition.

[redm]

https://twitter.com/alfredbosch/status/914539643605012482

[redm]

https://twitter.com/_leghorn_/status/914531837350957056

[redm]

https://twitter.com/vicentmontagud/status/914403438443859969

[redm]

https://twitter.com/estelada/status/914484418110205952

[redm]

https://twitter.com/williamsonkev/status/914398905982472198

 

 

 

https://twitter.com/pyannitsos/status/914533994422607873

 

https://twitter.com/postureiglleida/status/914583383111536640

 

https://twitter.com/gissisim/status/914588975255494656

 

https://twitter.com/manuelprs3/status/914437684638224385

[redm]

Preliminary results sitting at around 90% for Yes apparently.

[Gorgiewave]

Preliminary results sitting at around 90% for Yes apparently.

 

Sounds legit.

[redm]

Sounds legit.

Maybe all the no votes were in the boxes stolen by the Spanish police.

[Don Dan]

Maybe all the no votes were in the boxes stolen by the Spanish police.

 

or maybe all the No voters obeyed the law.

[redm]

or maybe all the No voters obeyed the law.

176,566 no voters turned out to exercise their democratic right. Good on them.

[Don Dan]

176,566 no voters turned out to exercise their democratic right. Good on them.

 

They broke the law as well then.

[redm]

They broke the law as well then.

What law did they break?

[redjambo]

Good luck to the Catalans. From today's scenes you're going to need it.

 

And frankly, putting the politics aside, the silence of the rest of the world's governments and institutions to the violence that took place against peaceful protesters today is deafening. They should be ashamed. Basic human rights is more than something you should just pay lip service to.

[Don Dan]

What law did they break?

The law that said this referendum vote was illegal.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gorgiewave]

What law did they break?

 

The "law" providing for this referendum was passed without debate in the Catalan Parliament and since it was passed, the Catalan Parliament has been closed on the initiative of the separatist government so that there can be no debate.

 

Its own electoral law requires transparent ballot boxes: they weren't transparent. Their law requires a certain electoral register: they used another, breaching the privacy of people's personal data. There are numerous instances of people voting several times and photographing themselves each time. One separatist opened a polling station in her house. One unfortunate separatist dropped a ballot box before voting had begun and numerous ballot papers spilled out. One man travelled from Madrid with his Madrid council registration form and then voted. They were taking anybody, and numerous times. This isn't serious or credible. Yet it will be used by the separatists as leverage to declare independence and try to blackmail the rest of Spain.

 

So it's a farce. Would you buy a used car from people who were so obviously untrustworthy? Would you accept that they would break the law and behave so irresponsibly before declaring independence, but would be model respecters of the law thereafter?

 

If it had been a Yes vote and the UK government had just decided to disregard the Edinburgh Agreement, I imagine you would have been unhappy. What these shysters are attempting is shady on that level.

[redjambo]

The law that said this referendum vote was illegal.

 

 

Ah so, according to your profile heading "Evil is the absence of good".

 

Have a think about that, DB. What actual harm were the protestors causing today? No, not considering whether they were breaking a law, but considering what harm they were actually causing to other people. The answer to that, of course, is virtually "none". They were allowing people to put marks on bits of paper. And yet the peaceful protests were broken up by strong-armed violence from the police, against the infirm and elderly amongst others.

 

Think about it. Which was good, which was evil? Are you sure you're batting for the right side?

 

The Spanish government are going to refute the results of the referendum. That's understandable and expected on their side. But they could have let the referendum go ahead and done that anyway, without all the violence. They chose not to. They chose violence against their own people. Now that's the "absence of good" in a nutshell.

[Don Dan]

Ah so, according to your profile heading "Evil is the absence of good".

 

Have a think about that, DB. What actual harm were the protestors causing today? No, not considering whether they were breaking a law, but considering what harm they were actually causing to other people. The answer to that, of course, is virtually "none". They were allowing people to put marks on bits of paper. And yet the peaceful protests were broken up by strong-armed violence from the police, against the infirm and elderly amongst others.

 

Think about it. Which was good, which was evil? Are you sure you're batting for the right side?

 

The Spanish government are going to refute the results of the referendum. That's understandable and expected on their side. But they could have let the referendum go ahead and done that anyway, without all the violence. They chose not to. They chose violence against their own people. Now that's the "absence of good" in a nutshell.

 

So it's ok to break the law as long as it doesn't hurt anyone? I'll remember that if I ever get stopped for speeding or something. Not that I would intentionally break any law as it's wrong to do so. Sorry officer I'm not hurting anyone so it's ok leave me alone!

 

What happened today was the police were sent into to close the polling stations and seize the polling equipment etc. They were prevented by locked gates, doors and people setting themselves up as barriers. I agree some of the force was over the top but to call it evil is a misuse of the word.

It's also a well known fact Spanish police don't muck around so if you protest and prevent then expect to be treated roughly.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Unknown user]

The "law" providing for this referendum was passed without debate in the Catalan Parliament and since it was passed, the Catalan Parliament has been closed on the initiative of the separatist government so that there can be no debate.

 

Its own electoral law requires transparent ballot boxes: they weren't transparent. Their law requires a certain electoral register: they used another, breaching the privacy of people's personal data. There are numerous instances of people voting several times and photographing themselves each time. One separatist opened a polling station in her house. One unfortunate separatist dropped a ballot box before voting had begun and numerous ballot papers spilled out. One man travelled from Madrid with his Madrid council registration form and then voted. They were taking anybody, and numerous times. This isn't serious or credible. Yet it will be used by the separatists as leverage to declare independence and try to blackmail the rest of Spain.

 

So it's a farce. Would you buy a used car from people who were so obviously untrustworthy? Would you accept that they would break the law and behave so irresponsibly before declaring independence, but would be model respecters of the law thereafter?

 

If it had been a Yes vote and the UK government had just decided to disregard the Edinburgh Agreement, I imagine you would have been unhappy. What these shysters are attempting is shady on that level.

Sources please

[Jamboross]

The "law" providing for this referendum was passed without debate in the Catalan Parliament and since it was passed, the Catalan Parliament has been closed on the initiative of the separatist government so that there can be no debate.

 

Its own electoral law requires transparent ballot boxes: they weren't transparent. Their law requires a certain electoral register: they used another, breaching the privacy of people's personal data. There are numerous instances of people voting several times and photographing themselves each time. One separatist opened a polling station in her house. One unfortunate separatist dropped a ballot box before voting had begun and numerous ballot papers spilled out. One man travelled from Madrid with his Madrid council registration form and then voted. They were taking anybody, and numerous times. This isn't serious or credible. Yet it will be used by the separatists as leverage to declare independence and try to blackmail the rest of Spain.

 

So it's a farce. Would you buy a used car from people who were so obviously untrustworthy? Would you accept that they would break the law and behave so irresponsibly before declaring independence, but would be model respecters of the law thereafter?

 

If it had been a Yes vote and the UK government had just decided to disregard the Edinburgh Agreement, I imagine you would have been unhappy. What these shysters are attempting is shady on that level.

For all I know the rest of your post could be correct but there are numerous photos from today showing transparent ballot boxes so that part at least is incorrect.

 

https://twitter.com/pvilarmau/status/914498077557444608

[redjambo]

So it's ok to break the law as long as it doesn't hurt anyone? I'll remember that if I ever get stopped for speeding or something. Not that I would intentionally break any law as it's wrong to do so. Sorry officer I'm not hurting anyone so it's ok leave me alone!

 

What happened today was the police were sent into to close the polling stations and seize the polling equipment etc. They were prevented by locked gates, doors and people setting themselves up as barriers. I agree some of the force was over the top but to call it evil is a misuse of the word.

It's also a well known fact Spanish police don't muck around so if you protest and prevent then expect to be treated roughly.

 

Yes, but if you're stopped for speeding then you're unlikely to be hammered over the head with a truncheon, aren't you? Reaction should be proportionate.

 

A misuse of the word "evil"? Have you seen some of the photos coming out of Catalonia?

 

That motto of yours is obviously there for comedic purposes or to make you look interesting because, given what you've said, it appears you don't actually know the difference between good and evil. It's a very murky ground most of the time, admittedly, but battering peaceful protestors is in no way on the "good" side of the spectrum.

[Gorgiewave]

Sources please

Voting more than once: http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/01/59d0ae46e2704eed3a8b45be.html (in Spanish)

 

Voting irregularities:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/inenglish/1506858911_482600.html

 

Press freedom restricted:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/29/inenglish/1506697968_724967.html?rel=cx_articulo#cxrecs_s

 

How the "law" was passed: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/06/inenglish/1504711550_720781.amp.html

 

How it's illegal: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/06/inenglish/1504696098_919491.amp.html

 

Sorry, I can't find an English language source on the fact that the Parliament's been closed, but it has.

[Gorgiewave]

For all I know the rest of your post could be correct but there are numerous photos from today showing transparent ballot boxes so that part at least is incorrect.

 

https://twitter.com/pvilarmau/status/914498077557444608

They were "semi-opaque." This is what they normally look like:

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=ms-android-samsung&dcr=0&biw=320&bih=256&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=ZIXRWbfFK4OUgAaq5Y4g&q=urnas+electorales+espa%C3%B1olaa&oq=urnas+electorales+espa%C3%B1olaa&gs_l=mobile-gws-img.3..30i10k1.5225.8637.0.8884.12.12.0.0.0.0.271.1980.2j8j2.12.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1.1.64.mobile-gws-img..4.8.1513....0.lvMn0QNCbTY#imgrc=ICQRCDWLc4d2IM:

[Unknown user]

Voting more than once: http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/01/59d0ae46e2704eed3a8b45be.html (in Spanish)

 

Voting irregularities:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/inenglish/1506858911_482600.html

 

Press freedom restricted:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/29/inenglish/1506697968_724967.html?rel=cx_articulo#cxrecs_s

 

How the "law" was passed: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/06/inenglish/1504711550_720781.amp.html

 

How it's illegal: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/06/inenglish/1504696098_919491.amp.html

 

Sorry, I can't find an English language source on the fact that the Parliament's been closed, but it has.

I hope they catch the duplicate voters although I don't see much evidence of that being widespread, the links you supply seem long on chat and short on evidence. I didn't see anything on the box with votes falling out has that been verified?

 

I note that you were exceptionally dismissive of accusations of impropriety such as ballot box tampering in the Scottish independence referendum, is there a reason you're so accepting on this occasion?

[Gorgiewave]

Polling stations in houses (in Spanish):

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/elpais.com/ccaa/2017/09/29/catalunya/1506698510_239652.amp.html

 

I don't know about you guys and gals, but I'm not sure I'd trust a vote taking place in the house of a known Labour or Conservative or Yes or No supporter.

[Unknown user]

Polling stations in houses (in Spanish):

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/elpais.com/ccaa/2017/09/29/catalunya/1506698510_239652.amp.html

 

I don't know about you guys and gals, but I'm not sure I'd trust a vote taking place in the house of a known Labour or Conservative or Yes or No supporter.

Throw mud, throw mud!

[Gorgiewave]

I hope they catch the duplicate voters although I don't see much evidence of that being widespread, the links you supply seem long on chat and short on evidence. I didn't see anything on the box with votes falling out has that been verified?

 

I note that you were exceptionally dismissive of accusations of impropriety such as ballot box tampering in the Scottish independence referendum, is there a reason you're so accepting on this occasion?

 

The ballot box is being taken into the polling station before voting. In a black bin liner. Unfortunately, the woman carrying it slips on the wet ground and ballot papers fall out...before the voting. A Limmy sketch right there.

 

In 2014, the allegations were based on photos taken from a distance of incorrectly identified piles of paper. The relevant officials explained the misunderstanding. And MI5 were allegedly involved. But MI5 are so bad at their job that it only takes an eagle-eyed Yes voting sleuth to see through their antics.

 

It's like the Skibbereen Eagle. They could see, from their vantage point in a small town in Ireland, exactly what the Tsar's game was and they solemnly warned him not to try any more funny business.