Catalonia referendum

[shaun.lawson]

3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

So, on exactly the same logic, you'd have favoured the secession of the South?

 

You know what a successful democracy must always hold paramount? The consent of the losers. If the losers do not feel that they have an equal stake in that democracy, what results is division, polarisation, and more and more grief. As we're all seeing in the UK right now.

 

And yes, I would've favoured secession of the South. If only the South had seceded, today's US would be an infinitely more tolerant, sensible, open place with far, far less problems. 

[JamboX2]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'm with the Irish Constitution on this point.

 

In Ireland, foreign citizens can vote in all sorts of elections, depending on where they are from, with British citizens having the widest range of voting rights of any foreigners.

 

But only Irish citizens can vote in a constitutional referendum.

 

UK electoral law position mirrors that.

 

In Scotland the Scottish Government set it's franchise. Based on data on the electoral roll it could have simply adopted the natural born Scots only rule. It opted not to.

 

Imo - given the major impact these have I'd definitely have allowed EU and rUK citizens votes in both Brexit and Indy votes.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

You know what a successful democracy must always hold paramount? The consent of the losers. If the losers do not feel that they have an equal stake in that democracy, what results is division, polarisation, and more and more grief. As we're all seeing in the UK right now.

 

And yes, I would've favoured secession of the South. If only the South had seceded, today's US would be an infinitely more tolerant, sensible, open place with far, far less problems. 

 

And the Confederate States of America would be...? Alongside Mali and Mauritania in still having slaves?

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

And the Confederate States of America would be...? Alongside Mali and Mauritania in still having slaves?

 

They could do whatever they wanted. I wouldn't care (apart from for the people inside such a hellhole, of course).

 

Bottom line? If a people want to leave a country, using force to keep them inside it and allowing them no viable course with which to achieve their aims is not something I will ever support. The UK handled Scottish independence rather differently; good on the UK. 

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

They could do whatever they wanted. I wouldn't care (apart from for the people inside such a hellhole, of course).

 

Bottom line? If a people want to leave a country, using force to keep them inside it and allowing them no viable course with which to achieve their aims is not something I will ever support. The UK handled Scottish independence rather differently; good on the UK. 

 

Shaun Lawson: doesn't care about a slave state, thinks Labour will solve Pakistani / Muslim grooming gangs through "investment" (will their anti-semitism and soft-pedalling on Islamism help or hinder? Will politically correct cowardice help or hinder?).

 

What a lad. Hopeless, blind and clueless.

[shaun.lawson]

13 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Shaun Lawson: doesn't care about a slave state, thinks Labour will solve Pakistani / Muslim grooming gangs through "investment" (will their anti-semitism and soft-pedalling on Islamism help or hinder? Will politically correct cowardice help or hinder?).

 

What a lad. Hopeless, blind and clueless.

 

Given you're apparently anti-Labour as well now, who are you pro? Anyone?

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Given you're apparently anti-Labour as well now, who are you pro? Anyone?

 

Conservative and Unionist. I voted for them last year and will do so in the future.

[shaun.lawson]

5 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Conservative and Unionist. I voted for them last year and will do so in the future.

 

And this was after spending years on here preaching that you were a true Labour man, desperate for Scotland's true Labour people to rise up and protect the UK against the nationalists?

 

A true man of principle.  

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

And this was after spending years on here preaching that you were a true Labour man, desperate for Scotland's true Labour people to rise up and protect the UK against the nationalists?

 

A true man of principle.  

I believe in individual freedom. Labour don't. End of.

 

This is the kind of thing I have in mind:

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

I believe in individual freedom. Labour don't. End of.

 

This is the kind of thing I have in mind:

 

 

 

Actually, what was I thinking? Your hatred of Scotland means of course you delight in what that woman did to it. 

[Gorgiewave]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Actually, what was I thinking? Your hatred of Scotland means of course you delight in what that woman did to it. 

You'll know the Oxford mindset. Elitist.

[Boris]

11 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Don't think it'll matter given he is classed as a criminal evading the law by the Spanish state.

 

Right or wrong he's broken the law of Spain. Accordingly he's - rightly - being brought to justice. This arrest will give him a chance to clear his name in court rather than running from capital to capital.

 

We may disagree on the underlying law being used, however it is right what EU members are doing here. Including the UK and Scottish authorities.

 

The idea pushed on social media and yes leaning commentators that an independent Scotland would prevent extradition and undermine the EAW process is madness that wouldn't be rationalised if we were independent. To do so on political issues would amount to interfering in the affairs of independent EU states. Something which if we started to do would be a slippery slope.

 

What I think should be happening is diplomatic lobbying with Rajoy's government to take a more lenient approach to all this. But then again Mario Rajoy seems to be facing some domestic headaches beyond Catalonia which may hasten his fall from grace.

 

 

 

I heard on the radio last night that Germany will only extradite if  the charges in Spain and his actions to have them brought, would be the same in Germany.  I guess that means if he had done what he had done in Germany, would it have broken German law.

 

Interesting.

[Boris]

11 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

I believe in individual freedom. Labour don't. End of.

 

This is the kind of thing I have in mind:

 

 

[Ulysses]

12 hours ago, Boris said:

 

I heard on the radio last night that Germany will only extradite if  the charges in Spain and his actions to have them brought, would be the same in Germany.  I guess that means if he had done what he had done in Germany, would it have broken German law.

 

Interesting.

 

 

That's a regular enough feature of extradition jurisprudence.

 

It's unlikely that Germany has a law permitting you to beat the shite out of your wife because blah blah blah blah whatever. 

[Gorgiewave]

19 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

That's a regular enough feature of extradition jurisprudence.

 

It's unlikely that Germany has a law permitting you to beat the shite out of your wife because blah blah blah blah whatever. 

However, it does have a law prohibiting one from attempting to destroy the German Federation. The very same law that has Puigdemont behind bars.

[Ulysses]

^^^^^

 

Stop avoiding the subject, spousal abuse horseshite guy. 

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

7 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

^^^^^

 

Stop avoiding the subject, spousal abuse horseshite guy. 

 

 

I said, one shouldn't expect one's spouse to be neutral about a desire to break the marriage, illiterate chap.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

I said, one shouldn't expect one's spouse to be neutral about a desire to break the marriage, illiterate chap.

 

 

Christ, that was easy.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Christ, that was easy.

Right, so you have no substantive objection to what I've said. It's a good thing Sinn Féin aren't in power or Ireland would be the place to go for Catalan arseholes to get official sympathy.

[Ulysses]

3 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Ah bollix, I was so embarrassed after posting that stupid crap about marriage the first time that I snuck away from the thread for months, and now I'm after letting Ulysses trick me into posting it again.  I suppose I'll just have to post some random word salad and hope for the best.

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

 

Do you want a plate with that arse? 

[AlphonseCapone]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

 

Do you want a plate with that arse? 

 

[Gorgiewave]

14 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Fixed that for you.

 

 

Do you want a plate with that arse? 

 

No,. the Spanish government is protecting the Spanish state. That's its job.

[Ulysses]

6 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

I'll comment on something else in the hope that people will forget I've posted that analogy not once, but twice.

 

 

Ah here, just give me back the plate and we'll say no more. 

 

 

[Ulysses]

23 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

Jaysus, Alphonse, that smiley got small.  What happened? 

[Boris]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

Jaysus, Alphonse, that smiley got small.  What happened? 

chilly weather?

[Ulysses]

Just now, Boris said:

chilly weather?

 

 

[AlphonseCapone]

9 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Jaysus, Alphonse, that smiley got small.  What happened? 

 

7 minutes ago, Boris said:

chilly weather?

 

 

[Ulysses]

2 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

 

 

 

My bad. Didn't mean to comment on the size of your smiley in chilly weather.

 

Soz.

[Ulysses]

 

 

Ooooooh, that's a biggie. 

[shaun.lawson]

30 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

No,. the Spanish government is protecting the Spanish state. That's its job.

 

It's doing anything but. And that's the whole point.

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It's doing anything but. And that's the whole point.

The job of the state is the same as that of the monarchy: to survive. To be there tomorrow. Not to be happy, not to thrive, permanecer.

[Ulysses]

10 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

It's doing anything but. And that's the whole point.

 

 

Shaun, read the thread in context.  The post you responded to meant nothing.  It was just a desperate attempt by someone to try to pretend he hadn't made a complete eejit of himself by posting the same daft analogy.  Twice.  On the same thread. 

 

It's all very well you taking things literally at face value.  You're not the one waiting for his plate to be given back. 

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Shaun, read the thread in context.  The post you responded to meant nothing.  It was just a desperate attempt by someone to try to pretend he hadn't made a complete eejit of himself by posting the same daft analogy.  Twice.  On the same thread. 

 

It's all very well you taking things literally at face value.  You're not the one waiting for his plate to be given back. 

You're obsessed with plates, Ulysses.

[Ulysses]

17 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

You're obsessed with plates, Ulysses.

 

I handed you back your arse, and you don't even have the decency to thank me.

 

If your spouse did that you'd farble gibble wooobly boobly. 

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I handed you back your arse, and you don't even have the decency to thank me.

 

If your spouse did that you'd farble gibble wooobly boobly. 

What a strange chap you are.

[shaun.lawson]

40 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

The job of the state is the same as that of the monarchy: to survive. To be there tomorrow. Not to be happy, not to thrive, permanecer.

 

That's a rather depressing comment from someone who says he believes in democracy and the rule of law. Why do you believe in them?

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

37 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

Shaun, read the thread in context.  The post you responded to meant nothing.  It was just a desperate attempt by someone to try to pretend he hadn't made a complete eejit of himself by posting the same daft analogy.  Twice.  On the same thread. 

 

It's all very well you taking things literally at face value.  You're not the one waiting for his plate to be given back. 

 

Whisper it, but I didn't think his original analogy was that bad. Or even bad at all. It made sense to me, at least. It's just that yours here was an awful lot better. 

 

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That's a rather depressing comment from someone who says he believes in democracy and the rule of law. Why do you believe in them?

 

 

Shaun, people, states, companies and football clubs try to survive. It's what they do.

[Ulysses]

19 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

What a strange chap you are.

 

Nah.  You ****ed up, and you're not making yourself look any better.

 

The person who made an eejit of themselves by saying something utterly silly, sloped off for months, and then came back hoping that nobody would notice wasn't me - it was you.

 

Now be a good lad, put down the shovel and step away from the hole.  An oul' eejit is harmless, but an oul' eejit swinging a shovel could hurt himself, and that would be bad.

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Shaun, people, states, companies and football clubs try to survive. It's what they do.

 

Why do you openly celebrate the shameless tactics the Spanish state employs in its bid for survival?

[Ulysses]

8 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Whisper it, but I didn't think his original analogy was that bad. Or even bad at all. It made sense to me, at least. It's just that yours here was an awful lot better. 

 

 

 

 

Pining for the fjords, SL.  Just pining for the fjords. 

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why do you openly celebrate the shameless tactics the Spanish state employs in its bid for survival?

 

 

The notion that the Spanish state is trying to survive is bizarre.  The Spanish state is in no danger of not surviving, regardless of what carry on Catalonia gets up to - even in the unlikely event of separation.

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

Nah.  You ****ed up, and you're not making yourself look any better.

 

The person who made an eejit of themselves by saying something utterly silly, sloped off for months, and then came back hoping that nobody would notice wasn't me - it was you.

 

Now be a good lad, put down the shovel and step away from the hole.  An oul' eejit is harmless, but an oul' eejit swinging a shovel could hurt himself, and that would be bad.

 

I'm happy to stand by every word of that analogy. Every word.

 

I didn't slope off. There was less news about the referendum and its aftermath (see the thread title) and so the thread fell into abeyance. Then I revived it to share the glad news of arrests. Did you revive it? No, I did.

[Ulysses]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

 

I'm happy to stand by every word of that analogy. Every word.

 

 

 

 

I know. 

[Gorgiewave]

5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why do you openly celebrate the shameless tactics the Spanish state employs in its bid for survival?

If you mean to insinuate violence, I've never celebrated that. If you mean arresting those bent on destroying the state and breaking the law, see my Steven Pinker post above.

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

If you mean to insinuate violence, I've never celebrated that. If you mean arresting those bent on destroying the state and breaking the law, see my Steven Pinker post above.

 

I saw that post. Don't send me a link to a book; answer the question! In order not merely to survive, but prosper - in order to exist not just for the benefit of some of their people, but most or even all of their people - it is up to states to treat real political grievances with seriousness. 

 

That's what the UK did in Northern Ireland. That's what the UK did, for the most part, in Scotland. And that is absolutely what Spain has not done with Catalunya. I think very little of the Catalan separatist leadership; a lot less of the disgusting Rajoy. Who doesn't govern for his people, or even half of them. He governs for a faction of the Spanish people... and that's it.

 

You may have noted the absolute shambles Spanish politics have been in in recent years. True leaders try to do something positive about that. Rajoy's only interested in himself and his party, and makes political prisoners out of those seeking, and denied by a stitch-up, their right to self-determination. In the end, that approach will only undermine and erode the state. Without the consent of their people, states ultimately implode.

[AlphonseCapone]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

My bad. Didn't mean to comment on the size of your smiley in chilly weather.

 

Soz.

 

Can only post with the smiley you have mate! 

[AlphonseCapone]

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why do you openly celebrate the shameless tactics the Spanish state employs in its bid for survival?

He's a right wing nut who enjoys flirting with fascism from what I can tell.

[Gorgiewave]

8 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I saw that post. Don't send me a link to a book; answer the question! In order not merely to survive, but prosper - in order to exist not just for the benefit of some of their people, but most or even all of their people - it is up to states to treat real political grievances with seriousness. 

 

That's what the UK did in Northern Ireland. That's what the UK did, for the most part, in Scotland. And that is absolutely what Spain has not done with Catalunya. I think very little of the Catalan separatist leadership; a lot less of the disgusting Rajoy. Who doesn't govern for his people, or even half of them. He governs for a faction of the Spanish people... and that's it.

 

You may have noted the absolute shambles Spanish politics have been in in recent years. True leaders try to do something positive about that. Rajoy's only interested in himself and his party, and makes political prisoners out of those seeking, and denied by a stitch-up, their right to self-determination. In the end, that approach will only undermine and erode the state. Without the consent of their people, states ultimately implode.

 

People aren't good. You think they are, but they're not. They just survive. Thus with states. Except for complete suckers, of course.

 

My policy from now on will be to ignore posts written in English (or Spanish) using "Catalunya" to refer to Catalonia (Cataluña if in Spanish).

[Bridge of Djoum]

 

This is my favorite plate.