Catalonia referendum

[Gorgiewave]

45 minutes ago, New York Fleapit said:

 

This is my favorite plate.

 

That's not a bad plate.

[Boris]

31 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

That's not a bad plate.

But not a survivor.

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

But not a survivor.

Far-called our navies melt away--On dune and headland sinks the fire--Lo, all our pomp of yesterday, Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!

[Boris]

6 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Far-called our navies melt away--On dune and headland sinks the fire--Lo, all our pomp of yesterday, Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!

Quite.

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, Boris said:

Quite.

 

You just love a rumpus and a bit of a revolution but the USSR and socialism are dead and gone.

 

 

[Boris]

5 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

You just love a rumpus and a bit of a revolution but the USSR and socialism are dead and gone.

 

 

Nation states come and go, but socialism will never die, camarada.

[Gorgiewave]

18 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Nation states come and go, but socialism will never die, camarada.

I refer you to Brexit for the respective fortunes of nation states and socialism.

[Boris]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

I refer you to Brexit for the respective fortunes of nation states and socialism.

 

[AlphonseCapone]

3 hours ago, New York Fleapit said:

 

This is my favorite plate.

 

Who's the transsexual? 

[Unknown user]

3 hours ago, New York Fleapit said:

 

This is my favorite plate.

Pffff

 

[Ron Burgundy]

57 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Who's the transsexual? 

A young Leanne Dempster.

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Who's the transsexual? 

I await your post railing against transphobia and transphobes.

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, Ron Burgundy said:

A young Leanne Dempster.

 

Good shout actually.

[shaun.lawson]

5 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Nation states come and go, but socialism will never die, camarada.

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

 

 

USSR v USA

PR China v Hong Kong

Malaysia v Singapore

North Korea v South Korea

Venezuela v Colombia

Eastern Europe v Western Europe

South America v North America

These are the comparisons you need to make.

 

Next up:

 

European Union v United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

[shaun.lawson]

9 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

European Union v United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

And you think Britain's on the side of the angels  

[shaun.lawson]

Gorgiewave, how did you vote in the EU referendum?

[Victorian]

A slight delicious irony being the name of the cafe on the corner of the Sheriff's court Chambers Street entrance in the television news footage.    Revolution.  

 

They do a lovely arse on a plate.    Served with a flat bread and guacamole.   £11.95

[JamboX2]

15 hours ago, Victorian said:

A slight delicious irony being the name of the cafe on the corner of the Sheriff's court Chambers Street entrance in the television news footage.    Revolution.  

 

They do a lovely arse on a plate.    Served with a flat bread and guacamole.   £11.95

 

What gets me about this is the belief that the Scottish and Catalan independence movements are born of the same thing. Are brothers and sisters in arms.

 

The SNP need to - as does the wider Yes movement - tread carefully here. Very much so.

 

The government of Catalonia - it's cabinet - of which Carla was a member of voted to enact a Unilateral Declaration of Independence after a court ruled that the their referendum was illegal under the statutes of Catalan self government and of the Spanish constitution. No one - not even North Korea - recognised this. 

 

The Catalan nation's own institutions - including the police - did not recognise this and act accordingly.

 

Pudigemont and some ministers fled court proceedings.

 

Now - whether you believe in Catalan independence or not Sturgeon should not put her movement's desires of an independent Scotland on the bonfire of Catalonia. It's madness. The EU backs Spain. The Spanish have acted over the top in my view but have their constitution as their justification. 

 

For me, there is no equivalency. No commonality. Scotland rightly held a consensual and legally binding vote. All parties accepted this. To throw lifelines to what was an absolute farce and a car crash performance in acting ultra vires with no consensus and little support is to me a dangerous move for the SNP and Yes supporters to back.

 

To me, yesterday set the wrong impression for the Yes Movement across the EU.

[Boris]

13 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

What gets me about this is the belief that the Scottish and Catalan independence movements are born of the same thing. Are brothers and sisters in arms.

 

The SNP need to - as does the wider Yes movement - tread carefully here. Very much so.

 

The government of Catalonia - it's cabinet - of which Carla was a member of voted to enact a Unilateral Declaration of Independence after a court ruled that the their referendum was illegal under the statutes of Catalan self government and of the Spanish constitution. No one - not even North Korea - recognised this. 

 

The Catalan nation's own institutions - including the police - did not recognise this and act accordingly.

 

Pudigemont and some ministers fled court proceedings.

 

Now - whether you believe in Catalan independence or not Sturgeon should not put her movement's desires of an independent Scotland on the bonfire of Catalonia. It's madness. The EU backs Spain. The Spanish have acted over the top in my view but have their constitution as their justification. 

 

For me, there is no equivalency. No commonality. Scotland rightly held a consensual and legally binding vote. All parties accepted this. To throw lifelines to what was an absolute farce and a car crash performance in acting ultra vires with no consensus and little support is to me a dangerous move for the SNP and Yes supporters to back.

 

To me, yesterday set the wrong impression for the Yes Movement across the EU.

 

But it does highlight the farce that is Spain's constitution.

 

Jailing people because they want independence, but will always be unable to get independence due to the catch 22 nature of the Spanish constitution, thereby making a particular political belief illegal.

 

If, as per the UN charter, we support the self determination of peoples then one can't help but be sympathetic to these Catalans who face lengthy prison terms, ultimately because of their political beliefs.

 

The YES movement probably isn't too worried about how it is viewed across the rest of the EU at this point in time, but regards the FM, she is head of a party whose main aim is independence, therefore it is no surprise she has a degree of sympathy with the Catalans, especially one resident in Scotland who will face jail due to her political beliefs.

 

IMO - I don't really know the ins and outs of this whole thing, I think the Spanish government have reacted terribly, I think that the Catalans have been a bit slap dash as well.

[Gorgiewave]

49 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

What gets me about this is the belief that the Scottish and Catalan independence movements are born of the same thing. Are brothers and sisters in arms.

 

The SNP need to - as does the wider Yes movement - tread carefully here. Very much so.

 

The government of Catalonia - it's cabinet - of which Carla was a member of voted to enact a Unilateral Declaration of Independence after a court ruled that the their referendum was illegal under the statutes of Catalan self government and of the Spanish constitution. No one - not even North Korea - recognised this. 

 

The Catalan nation's own institutions - including the police - did not recognise this and act accordingly.

 

Pudigemont and some ministers fled court proceedings.

 

Now - whether you believe in Catalan independence or not Sturgeon should not put her movement's desires of an independent Scotland on the bonfire of Catalonia. It's madness. The EU backs Spain. The Spanish have acted over the top in my view but have their constitution as their justification. 

 

For me, there is no equivalency. No commonality. Scotland rightly held a consensual and legally binding vote. All parties accepted this. To throw lifelines to what was an absolute farce and a car crash performance in acting ultra vires with no consensus and little support is to me a dangerous move for the SNP and Yes supporters to back.

 

To me, yesterday set the wrong impression for the Yes Movement across the EU.

 

Good! The sooner the world sees that the SNP are shysters and chancers, the better.

[Gorgiewave]

29 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

But it does highlight the farce that is Spain's constitution.

 

Jailing people because they want independence, but will always be unable to get independence due to the catch 22 nature of the Spanish constitution, thereby making a particular political belief illegal.

 

If, as per the UN charter, we support the self determination of peoples then one can't help but be sympathetic to these Catalans who face lengthy prison terms, ultimately because of their political beliefs.

 

The YES movement probably isn't too worried about how it is viewed across the rest of the EU at this point in time, but regards the FM, she is head of a party whose main aim is independence, therefore it is no surprise she has a degree of sympathy with the Catalans, especially one resident in Scotland who will face jail due to her political beliefs.

 

IMO - I don't really know the ins and outs of this whole thing, I think the Spanish government have reacted terribly, I think that the Catalans have been a bit slap dash as well.

 

Wishing for Catalan independence is not illegal. There are several political parties that have promoted the cause for decades, winning local, regional and national seats. Not one of them is illegal nor have any attempts been made to outlaw them or prevent them promoting that cause.

 

However, all of Spain, including 95% of Catalan voters, voted for a Constitution that prevents the break-up of Spain. The Constitution is the most popular thing in the history of Spanish democracy. Now the Catalan separatists want unilaterally to break that. The answer's No. Since they've insisted and tried to break up the Spanish state in breach of the Constitution, quite a few are in jail. Good.

 

They are also unable to "get independence" because they are a minority trying to bully the majority, and they have been for 40 years.

 

Boris said, "I don't really know the ins and outs of this whole thing" and he was damned right.

[Boris]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

 

Wishing for Catalan independence is not illegal. There are several political parties that have promoted the cause for decades, winning local, regional and national seats. Not one of them is illegal nor have any attempts been made to outlaw them or prevent them promoting that cause.

 

However, all of Spain, including 95% of Catalan voters, voted for a Constitution that prevents the break-up of Spain. The Constitution is the most popular thing in the history of Spanish democracy. Now the Catalan separatists want unilaterally to break that. The answer's No. Since they've insisted and tried to break up the Spanish state in breach of the Constitution, quite a few are in jail. Good.

 

They are also unable to "get independence" because they are a minority trying to bully the majority, and they have been for 40 years.

 

Boris said, "I don't really know the ins and outs of this whole thing" and he was damned right.

 

And there's the catch 22 of the thing!  If asked now, would 95% of Catalans vote for that particular part of the constitution?

 

Jailing people isn't the way forward, IMO.

[shaun.lawson]

I'll try again.

 

Gorgiewave, how did you vote in the EU referendum?

[AlphonseCapone]

1 hour ago, JamboX2 said:

 

What gets me about this is the belief that the Scottish and Catalan independence movements are born of the same thing. Are brothers and sisters in arms.

 

The SNP need to - as does the wider Yes movement - tread carefully here. Very much so.

 

The government of Catalonia - it's cabinet - of which Carla was a member of voted to enact a Unilateral Declaration of Independence after a court ruled that the their referendum was illegal under the statutes of Catalan self government and of the Spanish constitution. No one - not even North Korea - recognised this. 

 

The Catalan nation's own institutions - including the police - did not recognise this and act accordingly.

 

Pudigemont and some ministers fled court proceedings.

 

Now - whether you believe in Catalan independence or not Sturgeon should not put her movement's desires of an independent Scotland on the bonfire of Catalonia. It's madness. The EU backs Spain. The Spanish have acted over the top in my view but have their constitution as their justification. 

 

For me, there is no equivalency. No commonality. Scotland rightly held a consensual and legally binding vote. All parties accepted this. To throw lifelines to what was an absolute farce and a car crash performance in acting ultra vires with no consensus and little support is to me a dangerous move for the SNP and Yes supporters to back.

 

To me, yesterday set the wrong impression for the Yes Movement across the EU.

 

Except Nicola Sturgeon has been walking a very thin line. She's never outright supported Catalonian independence, only their right to choose. She's condemned the over the top reaction of the Spanish state while pointing out Scotland can't do anything about the legal process or these warrants.

 

All of that is perfectly reasonable and rational. Sure, rank and file members of the Yes movement will be more vocal but so what, that's their right. 

 

Spain is a deplorable nation, from their colonial history to their recent fascist past. Not to mention an economic joke. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Except Nicola Sturgeon has been walking a very thin line. She's never outright supported Catalonian independence, only their right to choose. She's condemned the over the top reaction of the Spanish state while pointing out Scotland can't do anything about the legal process or these warrants.

 

All of that is perfectly reasonable and rational. Sure, rank and file members of the Yes movement will be more vocal but so what, that's their right. 

 

Spain is a deplorable nation, from their colonial history to their recent fascist past. Not to mention an economic joke. 

Good post. 

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Good post. 

 

Except the last couple of lines, which go rather too far. Is Germany a "deplorable nation" because it has a fascist past too? And blaming Spain for the euro seems, well, pretty damn ridiculous.

 

I'd also like to remind Alphonse that Britain has a colonial past. In which Scotland has played a full part. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

Except the last couple of lines, which go rather too far. Is Germany a "deplorable nation" because it has a fascist past too? And blaming Spain for the euro seems, well, pretty damn ridiculous.

I love Germany but I'm biased.

[AlphonseCapone]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Except the last couple of lines, which go rather too far. Is Germany a "deplorable nation" because it has a fascist past too? And blaming Spain for the euro seems, well, pretty damn ridiculous.

 

Blaming Spain for the Euro? You're adding a lot into my post that wasn't there. Germany has the Euro and an excellent economy. Germany has done more than enough to atone for its past. 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Blaming Spain for the Euro? You're adding a lot into my post that wasn't there. Germany has the Euro and an excellent economy. Germany has done more than enough to atone for its past. 

 

Spain, like most of southern Europe, is an "economic joke" because of the euro. Germany has an "excellent economy"... also because of the euro.

[AlphonseCapone]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Spain, like most of southern Europe, is an "economic joke" because of the euro. Germany has an "excellent economy"... also because of the euro.

 

It's a little more complex than simply blaming the euro though, you'd agree? 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

It's a little more complex than simply blaming the euro though, you'd agree? 

 

On the basis that members of the euro can't devalue (instead, they can only put taxes up and cut, cut, cut), their economies are flooded with cheap German goods, yet they're all still responsible for their own debt while Germany builds up the largest trade surplus in the world as a direct consequence, not really, no. 

[Boris]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

On the basis that members of the euro can't devalue (instead, they can only put taxes up and cut, cut, cut), their economies are flooded with cheap German goods, yet they're all still responsible for their own debt while Germany builds up the largest trade surplus in the world as a direct consequence, not really, no. 

 

So who is to blame for Spain adopting the Euro? 

 

And why aren't other Euro using countries economies as grim as Spain's?  Netherlands, France, Belgum etc

 

The economic hardship is not the fault of the Euro, Euro membership may hamper sorting out the economy, but the economy itself is the issue, surely?

[AlphonseCapone]

5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

On the basis that members of the euro can't devalue (instead, they can only put taxes up and cut, cut, cut), their economies are flooded with cheap German goods, yet they're all still responsible for their own debt while Germany builds up the largest trade surplus in the world as a direct consequence, not really, no. 

 

Ah if they hadn't been forced into the Euro by the big bad Germans then theie economy would have been absolutely fine after the crash. 

 

There were no unique Spanish issues like their fiscally autonomous regions. Spain also didn't observe house prices rise three times as much as in the UK. They weren't spending far too much before the crash.

 

It was all simply the Euros fault.

 

Glad you were able to simplify such as a complex issue. Cheers. 

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

So who is to blame for Spain adopting the Euro? 

 

And why aren't other Euro using countries economies as grim as Spain's?  Netherlands, France, Belgum etc

 

The economic hardship is not the fault of the Euro, Euro membership may hamper sorting out the economy, but the economy itself is the issue, surely?

 

Of course it's the fault of the euro!

 

Every single country has gone through periods of economic crisis at one point or another. In the case of countries which control their own money supply, they can devalue... as we did when coming out of the ERM, for example. With the pound allowed to float free and find its natural level, cue 15 years of economic growth. 

 

But euro members don't have that opportunity. They're trapped. So much so that the EU steps in to control their budget and tax affairs, where necessary - meaning some of these countries have, at times, lost any semblance of democracy too.

 

I see your point in terms of how different the EU member states' economies are. But it's completely impossible for southern European service economies dependent on tourism to somehow copy Germany's industrial model. Germany will always be a naturally strong economy - but the effect of the euro is that German strength chronically exacerbates Spanish, Italian or Greek weakness. The absurd, disgusting demands placed on these countries during so-called "bailouts" - which have been about as reasonable as the Treaty of Versailles - have only made matters even worse, especially in Greece:

 

 

The result of that? Mass privatisations and obscene cuts in pensions, at the behest of Brussels and German banks. The IMF does not expect Greece to return to 'normality' until, get this, 2060 at the earliest. As long as the euro continues in its present vein - no common tax or budgetary arrangements, every country responsible for its own debt - it's impossible to ever sustainably 'fix' the economies of southern Europe. 

[shaun.lawson]

10 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

Ah if they hadn't been forced into the Euro by the big bad Germans then theie economy would have been absolutely fine after the crash. 

 

There were no unique Spanish issues like their fiscally autonomous regions. Spain also didn't observe house prices rise three times as much as in the UK. They weren't spending far too much before the crash.

 

It was all simply the Euros fault.

 

Glad you were able to simplify such as a complex issue. Cheers. 

 

When countries which control their own monetary supply hit trouble, or even crisis, they can devalue and recover. 

 

When countries are trapped by a currency they don't control, they can't.

[The Real Maroonblood]

5 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

When countries which control their own monetary supply hit trouble, or even crisis, they can devalue and recover. 

 

When countries are trapped by a currency they don't control, they can't.

That is why the euro is flawed. 

[Boris]

7 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Of course it's the fault of the euro!

 

Every single country has gone through periods of economic crisis at one point or another. In the case of countries which control their own money supply, they can devalue... as we did when coming out of the ERM, for example. With the pound allowed to float free and find its natural level, cue 15 years of economic growth. 

 

But euro members don't have that opportunity. They're trapped. So much so that the EU steps in to control their budget and tax affairs, where necessary - meaning some of these countries have, at times, lost any semblance of democracy too.

 

I see your point in terms of how different the EU member states' economies are. But it's completely impossible for southern European service economies dependent on tourism to somehow copy Germany's industrial model. Germany will always be a naturally strong economy - but the effect of the euro is that German strength chronically exacerbates Spanish, Italian or Greek weakness. The absurd, disgusting demands placed on these countries during so-called "bailouts" - which have been about as reasonable as the Treaty of Versailles - have only made matters even worse, especially in Greece:

 

 

The result of that? Mass privatisations and obscene cuts in pensions, at the behest of Brussels and German banks. The IMF does not expect Greece to return to 'normality' until, get this, 2060 at the earliest. As long as the euro continues in its present vein - no common tax or budgetary arrangements, every country responsible for its own debt - it's impossible to ever sustainably 'fix' the economies of southern Europe. 

 

So I'll go back to my first point and say who is to blame for Spain adopting the Euro?

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Boris said:

 

So I'll go back to my first point and say who is to blame for Spain adopting the Euro?

 

One Spanish government at one point in history. The euro is the only case I've ever come across in international relations in which countries which commit a blunder under a particular government (something every country on the planet has done at some point or another) are then expected to pay for that blunder forevermore. 

[AlphonseCapone]

14 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

When countries which control their own monetary supply hit trouble, or even crisis, they can devalue and recover. 

 

When countries are trapped by a currency they don't control, they can't.

 

They can but devaluing has its own problems and especially to the extent Spain would have had to. 

 

It's fanciful to suggest if they simply had their own currency then it would have been a lot better. 

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

I'll try again.

 

Gorgiewave, how did you vote in the EU referendum?

Off-topic post.

[Gorgiewave]

Spain has been an economic joke since approximately 1700. Its unemployment rate just before the recession began in 2008 was 8.9%. Among the reasons: late industrialisation, low literacy rates until the 1950s, extremely high taxes, historic hostility to individualism (Catholicism part of that), an extractive attitude to its colonies (didn't develop them, just took raw materials).

 

Current reasons: comparatively low competence in the English language, tripartite (unions, trade associations and government) preventing entrepreneurship. High taxation on the self-employed.

 

[Gorgiewave]

For economic growth, see:

 

Spoiler

 

 

For a contrast with that, see Spanish autarky:

 

"Franco’s policy of economic self-sufficiency or autarky contributed to the repression and humiliation of the defeated and to capital accumulation although its rigidity also delayed eventual growth. Considering himself to be an economist of genius, Franco embraced autarky oblivious to the fact that Spain lacked the technological and industrial base which had made such a policy feasible for the Third Reich. Autarky in Spain brought economic and social disaster – the shortages consequent upon closing Spain to the world provoked the emergence of a black market, the estraperlo, which exacerbated the differences between rich and poor.
Inevitably, it was those close to the regime who benefited and the defeated who suffered. State interventionism in every aspect of the planting, harvesting, processing, sale and distribution of wheat was so corrupt that it made fortunes for officials while creating shortages that saw food prices rocket. Access to work and ration cards meant getting identity  cards  and  safe  conducts  which  involved certificates of ‘good behaviour’ from local Falangist officials and parish priests. Inevitably, the defeated suffered materially  and were further humiliated while the sense of well being of the victors was enhanced."

 

 

http://iberianature.com/spain_culture/culture-and-history-of-spain-a/autarky/

[shaun.lawson]

19 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

Off-topic post.

 

I'm working on the assumption that you'll have voted Remain. The reason I ask is because if you did not, you - hater of Catalan nationalism, hater of Scottish nationalism, whose condemnation of the Catalan separatists' extra-constitutional methods is entirely contradicted by your equal condemnation of Scottish nationalists' constitutional methods - would be revealed as, oh the irony, a raving British nationalist.  

 

But as I say, I imagine you voted Remain anyway.

[shaun.lawson]

You linking to Hannan above only increases my suspicions.

[shaun.lawson]

20 minutes ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

They can but devaluing has its own problems and especially to the extent Spain would have had to. 

 

It's fanciful to suggest if they simply had their own currency then it would have been a lot better. 

 

I'm certainly not arguing that Spain's economy doesn't have its own endemic weaknesses. Almost all economies do, such as the North-South divide in the UK or Italy. I am arguing that where it's possible for economies to recover pretty quickly by devaluing, it's not at all possible for euro members. The equivalent, as I see it, would have involved us not having been allowed to leave the ERM, with the pound trapped at DM2.95 forever. 

 

Incidentally, I should probably clarify: despite my disgust at the euro, I voted Remain. Because the UK isn't part of the single currency, and effectively had the best of both worlds. 

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

You linking to Hannan above only increases my suspicions.

Linking to Hannan makes you suspect Remain?

 

What a lad Shaun is.

[Gorgiewave]

Have you watched the video, Shaun? Go on, you might learn something.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

Linking to Hannan makes you suspect Remain?

 

What a lad Shaun is.

 

Wow - so you are a raving British nationalist? Not only that, but having moved to and made a life for yourself in Spain, you voted to deny millions of Britons that same chance?

 

What a lad you truly are if so. 

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

Have you watched the video, Shaun? Go on, you might learn something.

 

I've watched plenty of Hannan over the years, thankyou. He makes up in bluster and bullshit what he always lacks in facts and rigour.