Catalonia referendum

[Gorgiewave]

On 22/12/2017 at 13:13, Psychedelicropcircle said:

Can imagine gorgiewave planning his gorilla warfare strategy until these natz are aw deed?

[redjambo]

I hope you're not gloating, Gorgiewave.

 

To be honest, I was reasonably supportive of their aims, especially after the heavy-handed manner in which the Spanish government dealt with the situation, but as soon as Puigdemont et al. scarpered to Belgium, I knew that their cause was lost. You do not run away when the going gets tough.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

I hope you're not gloating, Gorgiewave.

 

To be honest, I was reasonably supportive of their aims, especially after the heavy-handed manner in which the Spanish government dealt with the situation, but as soon as Puigdemont et al. scarpered to Belgium, I knew that their cause was lost. You do not run away when the going gets tough.

How about a change of pace?

 

 

[redjambo]

4 hours ago, Gorgiewave said:

How about a change of pace?

 

 

Sorry, GW, I don't get the reference or meaning about that video.

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, redjambo said:

 

Sorry, GW, I don't get the reference or meaning about that video.

It contains the memorable line,

"When the going is rough, well you must be tough,

With McAlpine's Fusiliers."

 

El Sr. Puigdemont is obviously not a McAlpine's Fusilier.

[redjambo]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

It contains the memorable line, "When the going is rough, well you must be tough,

                                                         With McAlpine's Fusiliers."

 

El Sr. Puigdemont is obviously not a McAlpine's Fusilier.

 

Ah ok, got you now.

[Gorgiewave]

Now the former president of Catalonia has been arrested in Germany. One looks forward to him spending a good few years in prison reflecting.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43532217

Clara Ponsatí, an ex-minister currently on the run in Scotland, will hand herself into police.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43529496

 

 

 

[luckydug]

Is Spain actually a democratic country now ?

I thought Fascism ended when Franco snuffed it.

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

17 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Is Spain actually a democratic country now ?

I thought Fascism ended when Franco snuffed it.

 

 

 

Quite. I'm not convinced Spain ever truly cleansed itself of fascism. Not if we to judge by the disgusting Partido Popular or, far too often, the Guarda Civil.

 

After the illegal referendum, I thought the behaviour of both the Spanish government and Catalan separatists was as bad as each other. Both behaving like children; no-one interested in long term solutions or, perish the thought, the common good. The Spanish authorities have since behaved, if anything, even more lamentably... and I'm somewhat less than convinced that the leaders of the pro-independence movement care much about their people. They come across like cultists and narcissists to me.

 

Fortunately, the good Spanish public has had increasingly enough of Rajoy, his corrupt lackeys and his jackboots, so centrist/centre-right Ciudadanos (the liberals, basically) are well ahead in the polls. But no long term solution has even been attempted. If it ever is, it simply must involve a new Constitution which reflects the realities not of 1978, but 2018.

[Don Dan]

Hola!! A blast from the past has returned.

[Gorgiewave]

48 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Quite. I'm not convinced Spain ever truly cleansed itself of fascism. Not if we to judge by the disgusting Partido Popular or, far too often, the Guarda Civil.

 

After the illegal referendum, I thought the behaviour of both the Spanish government and Catalan separatists was as bad as each other. Both behaving like children; no-one interested in long term solutions or, perish the thought, the common good. The Spanish authorities have since behaved, if anything, even more lamentably... and I'm somewhat less than convinced that the leaders of the pro-independence movement care much about their people. They come across like cultists and narcissists to me.

 

Fortunately, the good Spanish public has had increasingly enough of Rajoy, his corrupt lackeys and his jackboots, so centrist/centre-right Ciudadanos (the liberals, basically) are well ahead in the polls. But no long term solution has even been attempted. If it ever is, it simply must involve a new Constitution which reflects the realities not of 1978, but 2018.

 

Shaun! ¡Has vuelto!

 

Still verbose and a little more paranoid than usual, but still good you're with us.

[redjambo]

2 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Quite. I'm not convinced Spain ever truly cleansed itself of fascism. Not if we to judge by the disgusting Partido Popular or, far too often, the Guarda Civil.

 

After the illegal referendum, I thought the behaviour of both the Spanish government and Catalan separatists was as bad as each other. Both behaving like children; no-one interested in long term solutions or, perish the thought, the common good. The Spanish authorities have since behaved, if anything, even more lamentably... and I'm somewhat less than convinced that the leaders of the pro-independence movement care much about their people. They come across like cultists and narcissists to me.

 

Fortunately, the good Spanish public has had increasingly enough of Rajoy, his corrupt lackeys and his jackboots, so centrist/centre-right Ciudadanos (the liberals, basically) are well ahead in the polls. But no long term solution has even been attempted. If it ever is, it simply must involve a new Constitution which reflects the realities not of 1978, but 2018.

 

By the time they get round to it, perhaps the realities of 2028.

[NANOJAMBO]

5 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Quite. I'm not convinced Spain ever truly cleansed itself of fascism. Not if we to judge by the disgusting Partido Popular or, far too often, the Guarda Civil.

 

After the illegal referendum, I thought the behaviour of both the Spanish government and Catalan separatists was as bad as each other. Both behaving like children; no-one interested in long term solutions or, perish the thought, the common good. The Spanish authorities have since behaved, if anything, even more lamentably... and I'm somewhat less than convinced that the leaders of the pro-independence movement care much about their people. They come across like cultists and narcissists to me.

 

Fortunately, the good Spanish public has had increasingly enough of Rajoy, his corrupt lackeys and his jackboots, so centrist/centre-right Ciudadanos (the liberals, basically) are well ahead in the polls. But no long term solution has even been attempted. If it ever is, it simply must involve a new Constitution which reflects the realities not of 1978, but 2018.

Cheers. So the Catalans did ignore the rule of law. 

[Ulysses]

3 minutes ago, NANOJAMBO said:

Cheers. So the Catalans did ignore the rule of law. 

 

He's a JKB member, not the Supreme Court. 

[NANOJAMBO]

Just now, Ulysses said:

 

He's a JKB member, not the Supreme Court. 

 

You're a very naughty boy. 

 

Shaun, welcome back mate. I did think  yer posts were a bit too much for JKB but Christ, we need to raise the bar a little (well, a lot, actually).

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Classy. Wouldn’t expect anything less from the resident anti-democratic ex-pat basket-case.

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, Hunky Dory said:

 

Classy. Wouldn’t expect anything less from the resident anti-democratic ex-pat basket-case.

You again?

 

[Gorgiewave]

I ran away:

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

One good thing about all these cowards being on the lam is that Anna Gabriel has changed her hairdo to make her possibly employable in Switzerland rather than looking like an angry, clueless teenager:

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

Gorgiewave, thanks for the welcome back 

 

Given what you've written on here before, I realise you must feel like you owe an awful lot to Spain. And we're all well aware of your contempt for nationalists of any hue. But isn't your stance rather over the top? What sort of future do you envisage for Spain if others take your attitude and refuse point blank to engage with those who, in many cases for good reasons, wish to leave - and whose reasons only become more powerful as the Spanish state responds with jackboots on their necks?

 

Something else too. The Spanish 'socialists' are at a horrendously low ebb in public opinion because they're little more than a joke, who abandoned any pretence to socialism long ago. What kind of socialist, GW, rejoices in the execution of (some might suggest, the abuse of) state power in the way you're doing right now? Your way is no way at all. 

 

Finally, and rather ironically given your politics: the manner in which the European Arrest Warrant is being abused by Madrid is a very strong argument in support of the UK leaving the EU. It was meant to be used in cases of terrorism. Not peaceful domestic politics, for nakedly expedient reasons.

[John Findlay]

10 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

Gorgiewave, thanks for the welcome back 

 

Given what you've written on here before, I realise you must feel like you owe an awful lot to Spain. And we're all well aware of your contempt for nationalists of any hue. But isn't your stance rather over the top? What sort of future do you envisage for Spain if others take your attitude and refuse point blank to engage with those who, in many cases for good reasons, wish to leave - and whose reasons only become more powerful as the Spanish state responds with jackboots on their necks?

 

Something else too. The Spanish 'socialists' are at a horrendously low ebb in public opinion because they're little more than a joke, who abandoned any pretence to socialism long ago. What kind of socialist, GW, rejoices in the execution of (some might suggest, the abuse of) state power in the way you're doing right now? Your way is no way at all. 

 

Finally, and rather ironically given your politics: the manner in which the European Arrest Warrant is being abused by Madrid is a very strong argument in support of the UK leaving the EU. It was meant to be used in cases of terrorism. Not peaceful domestic politics, for nakedly expedient reasons.

Perharps that paragon of democracy, Germany should not have executed the European Warrant?

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

Perharps that paragon of democracy, Germany should not have executed the European Warrant?

 

Agree 100%.

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

Gorgiewave, thanks for the welcome back 

 

Given what you've written on here before, I realise you must feel like you owe an awful lot to Spain. And we're all well aware of your contempt for nationalists of any hue. But isn't your stance rather over the top? What sort of future do you envisage for Spain if others take your attitude and refuse point blank to engage with those who, in many cases for good reasons, wish to leave - and whose reasons only become more powerful as the Spanish state responds with jackboots on their necks?

 

Something else too. The Spanish 'socialists' are at a horrendously low ebb in public opinion because they're little more than a joke, who abandoned any pretence to socialism long ago. What kind of socialist, GW, rejoices in the execution of (some might suggest, the abuse of) state power in the way you're doing right now? Your way is no way at all. 

 

Finally, and rather ironically given your politics: the manner in which the European Arrest Warrant is being abused by Madrid is a very strong argument in support of the UK leaving the EU. It was meant to be used in cases of terrorism. Not peaceful domestic politics, for nakedly expedient reasons.

 

It's illegal (unconstitutional) to break up the Spanish state. If you want to change the Constitution, it provides mechanisms to do that. The Spanish state responds to illegal attempts to break it up by enforcing the law. Its European allies cooperate with that (those with similar laws against rebellion or sedition, such as Germany; not those without such laws, such as Belgium). The alleged good reasons are therefore moot. It's illegal. Would you have been pro- and anti. the rebellion by the Confederacy? The illegal independence breaking the Constitution that provided for no such thing, the allegation that sovereignty was more local than the federal level, the "reasons," which didn't seem half as bad then as they do now.

 

Such an illegal declaration of independence is more of a danger to the integrity of a state than sporadic terrorist bombings or shootings. Such violence is only a threat when it's widespread and sustained: Mexican drug cartels, the IRA 1969-1997, al-Qaeda in Iraq 2003-2014, ISIS, 2014-2017, etc. Attacking the last three isn't something for which one could be sure of obtaining approval, even on kickback.

 

The rule of law and states are worth fighting for. Cf. the world when they don't apply, i.e. Mexican drug cartels, al-Qaeda in Iraq 2003-2014, ISIS, 2014-2017, the Sicilian Mafia, the world before about 1500, etc.

 

On socialism:

 

 

On states and the rule of law:

 

[Gorgiewave]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Agree 100%.

See "rule of law" in my post above. States are legal people too.

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Gorgiewave said:

See "rule of law" in my post above. States are legal people too.

 

What mechanisms does the Constitution provide to change it?

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

What mechanisms does the Constitution provide to change it?

 

Have you read the Spanish Constitution?

 

Título X. De la reforma constitucional

Artículo 166

La iniciativa de reforma constitucional se ejercerá en los términos previstos en los apartados 1 y 2 del artículo 87.

Artículo 167

1. 1. Los proyectos de reforma constitucional deberán ser aprobados por una mayoría de tres quintos de cada una de las Cámaras. Si no hubiera acuerdo entre ambas, se intentará obtenerlo mediante la creación de una Comisión de composición paritaria de Diputados y Senadores, que presentará un texto que será votado por el Congreso y el Senado.

   2. De no lograrse la aprobación mediante el procedimiento del apartado anterior, y siempre que el texto hubiere obtenido el voto favorable de la mayoría absoluta del Senado, el Congreso, por mayoría de dos tercios, podrá aprobar la reforma.

   3. Aprobada la reforma por las Cortes Generales, será sometida a referéndum para su ratificación cuando así lo soliciten, dentro de los quince días siguientes a su aprobación, una décima parte de los miembros de cualquiera de las Cámaras.

Artículo 168

1. 1. Cuando se propusiere la revisión total de la Constitución o una parcial que afecte al Titulo preliminar, al Capítulo segundo, Sección primera del Título I, o al Título II, se procederá a la aprobación del principio por mayoría de dos tercios de cada Cámara, y a la disolución inmediata de las Cortes.

   2. Las Cámaras elegidas deberán ratificar la decisión y proceder al estudio del nuevo texto constitucional, que deberá ser aprobado por mayoría de dos tercios de ambas Cámaras.

   3. Aprobada la reforma por las Cortes Generales, será sometida a referéndum para su ratificación.

Artículo 169

No podrá iniciarse la reforma constitucional en tiempo de guerra o de vigencia de alguno de los estados previstos en el artículo 116.

 

Artículo 87

1. 1. La iniciativa legislativa corresponde al Gobierno, al Congreso y al Senado, de acuerdo con la Constitución y los Reglamentos de las Cámaras.

   2. Las Asambleas de las Comunidades Autónomas podrán solicitar del Gobierno la adopción de un proyecto de ley o remitir a la Mesa del Congreso una proposición de ley, delegando ante dicha Cámara un máximo de tres miembros de la Asamblea encargados de su defensa.

   3. Una ley orgánica regulará las formas de ejercicio y requisitos de la iniciativa popular para la presentación de proposiciones de ley. En todo caso se exigirán no menos de 500.000 firmas acreditadas. No procederá dicha iniciativa en materias propias de ley orgánica, tributarias o de carácter internacional, ni en lo relativo a la prerrogativa de gracia.

http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/index.htm

 

The English translation is already on this thread for those who want to read it.

[AlphonseCapone]

On 11/4/2017 at 21:19, Gorgiewave said:

 

I'm glad Mr Varadkar seems to think like this.

 

On 11/4/2017 at 23:39, Gorgiewave said:

 

If a person is married, do you think that it is necessary to propose having an affair, or to request permission to do so, before concluding that one's spouse's answer is No?

 

Appearing on the thread and acting smug after those car crashes above. Brass neck. 

[shaun.lawson]

So even mere constitutional reform projects - not Catalan independence, not constitutional reform, but mere projects - must be approved by large majorities of both Chambers? Could you run past me how such a majority could ever exist when Catalunya is a minority of Spain? 

 

Those 'provisions', in other words, are a stitch-up. And in the history of the world, countries held together by stitch-ups haven't tended to fare too well. 

[Gorgiewave]

21 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

So even mere constitutional reform projects - not Catalan independence, not constitutional reform, but mere projects - must be approved by large majorities of both Chambers? Could you run past me how such a majority could ever exist when Catalunya is a minority of Spain? 

 

Those 'provisions', in other words, are a stitch-up. And in the history of the world, countries held together by stitch-ups haven't tended to fare too well. 

Poyecto de ley = Bill.

 

Bills come before reforms.

[Gorgiewave]

23 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

So even mere constitutional reform projects - not Catalan independence, not constitutional reform, but mere projects - must be approved by large majorities of both Chambers? Could you run past me how such a majority could ever exist when Catalunya is a minority of Spain? 

 

Those 'provisions', in other words, are a stitch-up. And in the history of the world, countries held together by stitch-ups haven't tended to fare too well. 

This Autonomous Community or Region of Spain is called Catalonia in English, not Calalunya.

 

The point could be raised that questions of independence movements should be settled (one might hope in favour of the unity of Spain) by referenda. One might put that in a manifesto and stand on it. One might win a majority. Then it might become a Bill.

[shaun.lawson]

30 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

This Autonomous Community or Region of Spain is called Catalonia in English, not Calalunya.

 

The point could be raised that questions of independence movements should be settled (one might hope in favour of the unity of Spain) by referenda. One might put that in a manifesto and stand on it. One might win a majority. Then it might become a Bill.

 

Why would one win a majority across the whole of Spain?

 

This is like saying the SNP would need a majority across the whole of the UK for a referendum to be held, for it to be held.

[Gorgiewave]

PS, Shaun: if in the UK there was a political party that put an IN/OUT EU Referendum in its manifesto, it then won the election, it then held the referendum and the verdict was OUT, and the government of the same country then availed itself of the Article of the Treaty binding it to the EU to leave said EU, would you be glad such an exercise were not held back by mere "projects" and the need for majorities in both houses? Would independence seem like a Bad Thing? An unjust thing? A retograde move?

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Why would one win a majority across the whole of Spain?

 

This is like saying the SNP would need a majority across the whole of the UK for a referendum to be held, for it to be held.

One might not.

 

Ojalá on the second point.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Gorgiewave said:

One might not.

 

Ojalá on the second point.

 

That's laughable, and you know it. Not only laughable, but dangerous.

 

[shaun.lawson]

[Gorgiewave]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

That's laughable, and you know it. Not only laughable, but dangerous.

 

 

91.8% approval of the Constitution. That's why.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_constitutional_referendum,_1978

 

A king who was strongly in favour of the Constitution.

 

 

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

There has never been a majority in Catalonia in favour of independence. So let's not talk about "Catalonia."

[luckydug]

9 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

There has never been a majority in Catalonia in favour of independence. So let's not talk about "Catalonia."

I thought the majority of Catalans  voted for Independence in the referendum.

I suppose it's a bit like Scotland where incomers from other areas skew the vote.

The rules for the Scottish referendum should have been the same as the European referendum. Where incomers were not allowed to vote.

The Scottish referendum should have been for Scottish people only.

So the Catalonian referendum should be for Catalan people only.

Otherwise self determination is not possible.

 

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, luckydug said:

I thought the majority of Catalans  voted for Independence in the referendum.

I suppose it's a bit like Scotland where incomers from other areas skew the vote.

The rules for the Scottish referendum should have been the same as the European referendum. Where incomers were not allowed to vote.

The Scottish referendum should have been for Scottish people only.

So the Catalonian referendum should be for Catalan people only.

Otherwise self determination is not possible.

 

No, a majority of those who voted did. The rest boycotted.

[Gorgiewave]

6 minutes ago, luckydug said:

I thought the majority of Catalans  voted for Independence in the referendum.

I suppose it's a bit like Scotland where incomers from other areas skew the vote.

The rules for the Scottish referendum should have been the same as the European referendum. Where incomers were not allowed to vote.

The Scottish referendum should have been for Scottish people only.

So the Catalonian referendum should be for Catalan people only.

Otherwise self determination is not possible.

 

 

Why Scottish people only, if people from all over live in Scotland, some long-term? Why not Scots who don't live in Scotland?

 

I thought Scottish nationalism was civic nationalism, or was that just bullshit to get people to vote Yes?

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, luckydug said:

I thought the majority of Catalans  voted for Independence in the referendum.

I suppose it's a bit like Scotland where incomers from other areas skew the vote.

The rules for the Scottish referendum should have been the same as the European referendum. Where incomers were not allowed to vote.

The Scottish referendum should have been for Scottish people only.

So the Catalonian referendum should be for Catalan people only.

Otherwise self determination is not possible.

 

The result of the referendum affected every single person who lives in Catalonia, why should some of them be excluded from having the right to self determination?

[Mikey1874]

Spanish Police used a tracking device on Puidgemont's car its been reported. 

[Ulysses]

1 hour ago, AlphonseCapone said:

 

 

Appearing on the thread and acting smug after those car crashes above. Brass neck. 

 

If a person is married and is uncertain about the relationship's future, and the spouse kicks the shite out of them and locks them in a cellar, do they, er, garble warble farble fibble wibble?

[luckydug]

30 minutes ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

Why Scottish people only, if people from all over live in Scotland, some long-term? Why not Scots who don't live in Scotland?

 

I thought Scottish nationalism was civic nationalism, or was that just bullshit to get people to vote Yes?

Then surely non British nationals who are resident in GB  should have been allowed to vote in the Brexit referendum.

After all they are affected as they live here too.

[shaun.lawson]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

If a person is married and is uncertain about the relationship's future, and the spouse kicks the shite out of them and locks them in a cellar, do they, er, garble warble farble fibble wibble?

 

    

 

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Gorgiewave said:

 

There has never been a majority in Catalonia in favour of independence. So let's not talk about "Catalonia."

 

And if there was? What you've highlighted above shows that if there was, they'd then have to persuade the rest of Spain to support them. That's a stitch-up, under a Constitution which is not fit for purpose and doing considerable more harm than good.

[Gorgiewave]

2 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Then surely non British nationals who are resident in GB  should have been allowed to vote in the Brexit referendum.

After all they are affected as they live here too.

No. One already knew who UK citizens were and were not. That was up in the air in the putative new Scotland or new Catalonia.

[Gorgiewave]

4 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

And if there was? What you've highlighted above shows that if there was, they'd then have to persuade the rest of Spain to support them. That's a stitch-up, under a Constitution which is not fit for purpose and doing considerable more harm than good.

So, on exactly the same logic, you'd have favoured the secession of the South?

[Ulysses]

7 minutes ago, luckydug said:

Then surely non British nationals who are resident in GB  should have been allowed to vote in the Brexit referendum.

After all they are affected as they live here too.

 

I'm with the Irish Constitution on this point.

 

In Ireland, foreign citizens can vote in all sorts of elections, depending on where they are from, with British citizens having the widest range of voting rights of any foreigners.

 

But only Irish citizens can vote in a constitutional referendum.

[JamboX2]

13 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Spanish Police used a tracking device on Puidgemont's car its been reported. 

 

Don't think it'll matter given he is classed as a criminal evading the law by the Spanish state.

 

Right or wrong he's broken the law of Spain. Accordingly he's - rightly - being brought to justice. This arrest will give him a chance to clear his name in court rather than running from capital to capital.

 

We may disagree on the underlying law being used, however it is right what EU members are doing here. Including the UK and Scottish authorities.

 

The idea pushed on social media and yes leaning commentators that an independent Scotland would prevent extradition and undermine the EAW process is madness that wouldn't be rationalised if we were independent. To do so on political issues would amount to interfering in the affairs of independent EU states. Something which if we started to do would be a slippery slope.

 

What I think should be happening is diplomatic lobbying with Rajoy's government to take a more lenient approach to all this. But then again Mario Rajoy seems to be facing some domestic headaches beyond Catalonia which may hasten his fall from grace.