Brexit Deal agreed ( updated )

[Lovecraft]

34 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Do the DUP actually know they share a land border with the EU? Thickest morons going. 

Say what you like about Arlene Foster, but he knows how to play his political games.

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

47 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

Do the DUP actually know they share a land border with the EU? Thickest morons going. 

 

This from the Telegraph is where they seem to have the issue.

 

ARTICLE 5 – how the Irish Sea border will work

Johnson deal: This article explains the operation of the new customs arrangements across the Irish Sea that will come into place in order to avoid a return to a hard border in Northern Ireland.

It says that goods going into Northern Ireland from Great Britain will not be subject to tariffs “unless that good is at risk of subsequently being moved into the [European] Union” and that household goods (for example if you were moving from Manchester to Belfast) will be exempt.

The decision about whether a good is ‘at risk’ is handed to the Joint Committee that governs the protocol, which effectively gives the EU the right to determine which goods must pay tariffs. All inputs subject to commercial processing in NI must pay duties.

The Joint Committee decision will make the ‘at risk’ decision based on the nature of the input or good, its value and the risk it poses to the EU for smuggling and duty-avoidance.

HMRC and the UK Government officials concede there will be lots of work on how it implements the “two channels” system of ‘red and green’ lanes.

Crucially, the UK will administer the system, which is a big concession from the EU side (Article 12.1) although the EU will have ultimate control of what is designated ‘at risk’.

 

The DUP deemed this unacceptable, noting that while only those goods ultimately destined for the Republic of Ireland would be subject to tariffs, “the reality remains that the EU would have a veto on which goods would be exempt and which would not under the Joint Committee arrangements”.

[Cade]

Flat Earth Ignoramus Party states it will be voting AGAINST the deal, not just abstaining.

 

[shaun.lawson]

3 minutes ago, Cade said:

Flat Earth Ignoramus Party states it will be voting AGAINST the deal, not just abstaining.

 

 

Of course - because they can't have a border down the Irish Sea.

 

This has always been the case. It shouldn't be any kind of surprise to anyone. The DUP voting NO means potential swing voters will also vote NO and the deal will be defeated.

 

Then Johnson will either request an extension or be forced by the courts to request an extension. Which will be granted, unless Orban decides to play silly buggers.

 

And if granted, it's general election time - but the deal gives Johnson the political cover to blame Parliament and in all likelihood, win.

Edited October 17, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Toxteth O'Grady]

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/dup-hoping-to-expand-into-*****-up-other-countries-2019101718984

[dobmisterdobster]

3 hours ago, Boris said:

 

All eyes on how the ERG vote on Saturday.  

 

At the next GE expect Farage to label Boris a coward/traitor/betrayer etc  Could see a split in the Tory vote?

 

Or it may leave them irrelevant.

 

More interesting will be what happens to the Lib Dem vote.  If Brexit secured, their main weapon is spiked.  Labour surge in polls as domestic things (austerity, poverty etc) come back to the fore.  Those leave voting labour supporters may return to the fold?

If we leave on time (big if).

The Brexit Party will be cast into the sea of obsolescence.

The Lib Dems will become the new party of the "woke" middle classes who have strong beliefs but don't want to pay more tax.

Labour might perform a lot better talking about social issues instead of Brexit.

[Cruyff Turn]

DUP won’t vote for it.

Lib Dems won’t vote for it.

SNP won’t vote for it.

 

But I think enough Labour MP’s could push it through. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[shaun.lawson]

2 hours ago, Lord BJ said:

I don’t see the EU being the party to force a no deal. Albeit I may be completely wrong.

 

They won't be. You're quite right. Juncker said this to try and help Johnson. He's already been contradicted by Tusk, other European officials and European capitals.

 

It's quite amazing that after over 3 years, many people STILL don't realise that people like Juncker have no actual power. The power in the EU resides with the member states. Always has, always will. But then, if enough people had realised this to begin with, and not been bombarded with constant lies about it, Brexit would never have been voted for in the first place.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

3 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Of course - because they can't have a border down the Irish Sea.

 

This has always been the case. It shouldn't be any kind of surprise to anyone. The DUP voting NO means potential swing voters will also vote NO and the deal will be defeated.

 

Then Johnson will either request an extension or be forced by the courts to request an extension. Which will be granted, unless Orban decides to play silly buggers.

 

And if granted, it's general election time - but the deal gives Johnson the political cover to blame Parliament and in all likelihood, win.

Pretty much how I think it will play out especially your last paragraph. Labour seem intent on shouting themselves in the foot time and time again. They will never win an election anytime soon 

[Victorian]

Stand by my earlier description of the DUP.    Filth.    

 

Elsewhere,    the changes to the political declaration on standards and rights have clearly come from the UK side.    It's a carrot for the hard Brexit donkeys to chase in exchange for them facilitating Johnson's deal passing the commons.     The preservation of the hope of a distant future relationship.    Something that will represent the new theatre of war for the ERG and Farage to exist on.

 

Johnson is buying personal,  short term glory with the long term prospects of a sensible and secure free trade deal.

[shaun.lawson]

On 16/10/2019 at 15:28, JackLadd said:

Will be odd to see the Ulster says No party support a deal 

 

1 hour ago, JackLadd said:

Thickest moron going. 

 

[Mikey1874]

16 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

DUP won’t vote for it.

Lib Dems won’t vote for it.

SNP won’t vote for it.

 

But I think enough Labour MP’s could push it through. 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

Majority perhaps more likely for Deal with Referendum 

[shaun.lawson]

7 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

Backstop removed and more importantly it ensures no deal which corbyn keeps telling us is his priority.  

 

Heres a question for you.  And be honest.  Do you believe there could be any deal that a conservative government could get that Corbyn would vote for? 

 

Good grief.

 

I realise you're someone who doesn't pay attention to politics while convincing yourself that you're informed. That's a pattern in all your posts. If you were informed, you'd have been incredibly angry about the DUP two years ago, instead of thinking nothing of bribing a party of bigots, misogynists and terrorist sympathisers - instead of only now, when suddenly they might personally inconvenience you, which we just cannot have. But still...

 

A few months ago, Parliament held a series of indicative votes, which you should hopefully recall. The vote which came closest to succeeding was Ken Clarke's customs union. Labour voted for it. The Greens, the SNP, the Lib Dems and Change UK voted it down.

 

Clarke, a passionate Remainer of course, displayed real leadership that day. Labour showed they were happy to vote for a Brexit which protected jobs and protected the Irish border and peace process. Remain ultras thought otherwise, thereby dragging the UK ever closer towards the precipice.

[Brighton Jambo]

31 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Good grief.

 

I realise you're someone who doesn't pay attention to politics while convincing yourself that you're informed. That's a pattern in all your posts. If you were informed, you'd have been incredibly angry about the DUP two years ago, instead of thinking nothing of bribing a party of bigots, misogynists and terrorist sympathisers - instead of only now, when suddenly they might personally inconvenience you, which we just cannot have. But still...

 

A few months ago, Parliament held a series of indicative votes, which you should hopefully recall. The vote which came closest to succeeding was Ken Clarke's customs union. Labour voted for it. The Greens, the SNP, the Lib Dems and Change UK voted it down.

 

Clarke, a passionate Remainer of course, displayed real leadership that day. Labour showed they were happy to vote for a Brexit which protected jobs and protected the Irish border and peace process. Remain ultras thought otherwise, thereby dragging the UK ever closer towards the precipice.

 You really are a patronising twat.  

 

P.s.  I notice you ignored my other post to you as it made you look like the ignorant, blinkered idiot you are.  

 

Nice of you to note what a real leader looks like in Ken Clarke, unlike Jeremy Corbyn who couldn’t agree for the good the the UK to let the likes of Ken Clarke lead a unity government.  

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Brighton Jambo

[shaun.lawson]

1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said:

 You really are a patronising twat.  

 

P.s.  I notice you ignored my other post to you as it made you look like the ignorant, blinkered idiot you are.  

 

Nice of you to note what a real leader looks like in Ken Clarke, unlike Jeremy Corbyn who couldn’t agree for the good the the UK to let the likes of Ken Clarke lead a unity government.  

 

Oh and by the way I assume you are informed enough to know the DUP threatened to publish letters from Jeremy Corbyn after the last election offering a coalition with them? 

 

I ignored your other post because it's irrelevant and full of bullshit. You, meanwhile, are quite happy to ignore 13 million voters... who voted Labour, which is why Corbyn is the only alternative PM.

 

So why haven't they published the letters then? Are you seriously this naive? 

 

In sum though: WHY CAN'T LABOUR VOTE FOR A DEAL WHICH DESTROYS WORKERS' RIGHTS AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTIONS HOW DARE THEY OBSTRUCT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE

 

Which really means:

 

"I might be personally inconvenienced in some way".

 

Because that's what this is really all about. 

[Brighton Jambo]

Just now, shaun.lawson said:

 

I ignored your other post because it's irrelevant and full of bullshit. You, meanwhile, are quite happy to ignore 13 million voters... who voted Labour, which is why Corbyn is the only alternative PM.

 

So why haven't they published the letters then? Are you seriously this naive? 

 

In sum though: WHY CAN'T LABOUR VOTE FOR A DEAL WHICH DESTROYS WORKERS' RIGHTS AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTIONS HOW DARE THEY OBSTRUCT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE

 

Which really means:

 

"I might be personally inconvenienced in some way".

 

Because that's what this is really all about. 

So perhaps you could enlighten us why Dame Louise Ellman has resigned from the Labour Party.  My previous posts contained direct quotes from her which you so readily dismiss as bullshit.

 

I assume you acknowledge her concerns as genuine and if not why not? 

[gashauskis9]

59 minutes ago, Cruyff Turn said:

DUP won’t vote for it.

Lib Dems won’t vote for it.

SNP won’t vote for it.

 

But I think enough Labour MP’s could push it through. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Exactly where I am chief.  Corbyn is about to hand Boris a mandate that will **** this country for years.

[shaun.lawson]

Just now, Brighton Jambo said:

So perhaps you could enlighten us why Dame Louise Ellman has resigned from the Labour Party.  My previous posts contained direct quotes from her which you so readily dismiss as bullshit.

 

I assume you acknowledge her concerns as genuine and if not why not? 

 

I don't treat her concerns as genuine, no. She's lied about her 'concerns' repeatedly.

 

There's quite a significant number of Jews who saw through this bullshit ages ago. Strangely, the media aren't interested in any of their views, because it doesn't fit the narrative. When many of those expelled from the Labour Party for 'antisemitism' are, er, Jewish, we have a problem. 

 

What is the 'antisemitism crisis' really all about? Opposition to Israel; specifically, opposition to Zionism. Not the theory of Zionism (which I support), but the practice of Zionism, in which Palestinians are murdered almost every day. But as the Palestinians are treated by our beloved Fourth Estate as non-people, the truth of all this just cannot be allowed to come out.

 

I bet you never even read the IHRA's examples, which is where all this furore goes back to. I bet you didn't. 

[Brighton Jambo]

9 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I don't treat her concerns as genuine, no. She's lied about her 'concerns' repeatedly.

 

There's quite a significant number of Jews who saw through this bullshit ages ago. Strangely, the media aren't interested in any of their views, because it doesn't fit the narrative. When many of those expelled from the Labour Party for 'antisemitism' are, er, Jewish, we have a problem. 

 

What is the 'antisemitism crisis' really all about? Opposition to Israel; specifically, opposition to Zionism. Not the theory of Zionism (which I support), but the practice of Zionism, in which Palestinians are murdered almost every day. But as the Palestinians are treated by our beloved Fourth Estate as non-people, the truth of all this just cannot be allowed to come out.

 

I bet you never even read the IHRA's examples, which is where all this furore goes back to. I bet you didn't. 

No you are right so I went to he Labour Party 2019 rule book to educate myself and guess what?  There is no mention of the IHRA definition of anti semitism or any of the examples there?  Not a single mention?  Why would that be?!

 

no problem I thought I will check their code of conduct specifically the part about anti semitism but it’s not there either.

 

no worries I thought I would check the 2018 rule book - and you guessed it.  

 

Laughable.

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Brighton Jambo

[kingantti1874]

If It isn’t voted through then the tories will lay the blame at the door of labour, Libs and the SNP.

 

as a firm remainer I’d probably vote for it.. compromise is required.. and a semi disaster is better than a total disaster.. and much as I’d like to kill brexit,  it won’t happen

Edited October 17, 2019 by kingantti1874

[Unknown user]

5 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

If It isn’t voted through then the tories will lay the blame at the door of labour, Libs and the SNP.

 

as a firm remainer I’d probably vote for it.. compromise is required.. and a semi disaster is better than a total disaster.. and much as I’d like to kill brexit,  it won’t happen

 

This has been the end game for quite some time IMO.

[jamb0_1874]

4 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

Just vote this shit through and get on with it 

Exactly

[SwindonJambo]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I ignored your other post because it's irrelevant and full of bullshit. You, meanwhile, are quite happy to ignore 13 million voters... who voted Labour, which is why Corbyn is the only alternative PM.

 

So why haven't they published the letters then? Are you seriously this naive? 

 

In sum though: WHY CAN'T LABOUR VOTE FOR A DEAL WHICH DESTROYS WORKERS' RIGHTS AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTIONS HOW DARE THEY OBSTRUCT THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE

 

Which really means:

 

"I might be personally inconvenienced in some way".

 

Because that's what this is really all about. 

 

I dislike Boris but if there is an election, Labour will be annihilated and will win few seats outside their die hard support areas. Hopefully Corbyn will be booted into the outer stratosphere of obscurity whence he came and someone decent replaces him. Boot out Momentum and I'll start voting Labour again. 

 

There's nothing whatsoever you or anyone else can say to persuade me to return to Labour in their current state.

 

They're a rudderless incoherent shambles.

[kingantti1874]

5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

This has been the end game for quite some time IMO.

absolutely obvious, and it will probably work.. they have remain in a corner with no way out!! 

 

the SNP are flapping like ****- the last thing they expected was that they’d actually get a deal.. their independence master plan in the gutter.

 

 the Lib Dem’s revoke policy will be dead overnight.

 

labour - enough of their MP’s will vote it through IMO and they won’t want the blame at their doorstep, they will try and force a confirmatory referrendum first of course but that will probably fail.

 

they should have got the vote of no confidence done 2 weeks ago, instead they’ve spent it fighting over who’s be the temporary leader 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️

 

[Martin_T]

22 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

If It isn’t voted through then the tories will lay the blame at the door of labour, Libs and the SNP.

 

as a firm remainer I’d probably vote for it.. compromise is required.. and a semi disaster is better than a total disaster.. and much as I’d like to kill brexit,  it won’t happen

 

I honestly think what will happen is we will end up in exact regulatory alignment with the EU, without being able to influence that regulation and further with a weakened geopolitical status in the world.

 

Freedom of movement will be replaced with a flimsy points based system which will look tough, but fundamentally can't be because with an ageing population and labour market shortages, the UK needs workers to keep the lights on.

 

So what has been gained from all this? Pretty much nothing, other than it becoming more of a ball ache for UK companies to trade with the EU and UK citizens to live and work in the EU.

 

Still at least the leave voters get to think that they have 'won'.

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Brighton Jambo said:

No you are right so I went to he Labour Party 2019 rule book to educate myself and guess what?  There is no mention of the IHRA definition of anti semitism or any of the examples there?  Not a single mention?  Why would that be?!

 

no problem I thought I will check their code of conduct specifically the part about anti semitism but it’s not there either.

 

no worries I thought I would check the 2018 rule book - and you guessed it.  

 

Laughable.

 

 

Laughable you think Labour is somehow to blame for anti semitism. 

 

You do that for your own reasons. 

 

Corbyn and others would fight to protect Jews. Would you? 

[SwindonJambo]

8 minutes ago, Martin_T said:

 

I honestly think what will happen is we will end up in exact regulatory alignment with the EU, without being able to influence that regulation and further with a weakened geopolitical status in the world.

 

Freedom of movement will be replaced with a flimsy points based system which will look tough, but fundamentally can't be because with an ageing population and labour market shortages, the UK needs workers to keep the lights on.

 

So what has been gained from all this? Pretty much nothing, other than it becoming more of a ball ache for UK companies to trade with the EU and UK citizens to live and work in the EU.

 

Still at least the leave voters get to think that they have 'won'.

 

A very reasonable assessment imho. Many of those voting leave did so based on a yearning for the 'olden days', which can't possibly return.

 

The aging population issue is much worse in Scotland than elsewhere in the UK. The pensioner population is growing much faster than the working population. To thrive in future, whether in Union or not, it's going to have to attract large numbers of youngish well educated and skilled people.

[shaun.lawson]

4 hours ago, Brighton Jambo said:

No you are right so I went to he Labour Party 2019 rule book to educate myself and guess what?  There is no mention of the IHRA definition of anti semitism or any of the examples there?  Not a single mention?  Why would that be?!

 

no problem I thought I will check their code of conduct specifically the part about anti semitism but it’s not there either.

 

no worries I thought I would check the 2018 rule book - and you guessed it.  

 

Laughable.

 

 

You don't even know what the working definition or the examples are, do you? Us Jews have one holy text. The Torah. People like you don't get to dictate to Jews like me - least of all, a grandson of a Holocaust survivor, like me - what antisemitism is or isn't. Nor does a working definition (ie. a definition which, by its very wording, is still under construction) which has rightly been rejected by huge numbers of countries and organisations because its examples are a nonsense which chill pro-Palestinian speech. And my source on that latter point? Only the author of the definition himself.

 

Here's the background on Louise Ellman. Not that you'll read it, of course. 

 

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/louise-ellman-and-the-war-on-riverside-labour-party-jvl-exclusive/

 

In the meantime, if Labour don't win the forthcoming election, the Tories will. That's the Tories who, er, implement racist policies every single day. Racist on immigration, racist on refugees, sending Afghan kids back to their deaths and Nigerian refugees into sex trafficking - but I don't hear a word from you on that. How odd. Ditto, the worst humanitarian catastrophe on planet Earth in which Yemeni children are blown to pieces by British weapons so we can profit. But hey ho, who cares?

 

The very same Tories have a membership who have the following delightful views:

 

- 67% believe there are areas of Britain that operate under Sharia law

- 60% believe that Islam is a threat to Western civilisation

- 56% believe that Islam is a threat to the British way of life

- 45% believe there are areas of Britain that non-Muslims are unable to enter

- 43% "would prefer not to have the country led by a Muslim"

- 40% believe Britain should lower the number of Muslims entering the country

- 8% - just 8%! - "would be proud of Britain if we were to elect a Muslim as our Prime Minister".

 

These are the people who gave us Boris. The Islamophobic Boris, the corrupt beyond belief Boris, the compulsive liar Boris, the man who decided to support Brexit purely to help his career, who ensured Nazanin Nazari Ratcliffe would remain under lock and key, who wanted journalists beaten up, who appears to have committed misconduct in public office. But y'know, you can't blame him! Get her pumped. WHAT A LAD. 

 

All this going on - with the Tories refusing to hold an inquiry into Islamophobia in their party (naturally so, because it's completely rampant), and hate crimes against Muslims at four times the level of hate crimes against Jews. So does it receive four times the amount of reporting? Does the public even know the figures I've just set out above? No chance. And you know why? Because in the Banana Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Muslims don't count. They're non-people. An irrelevance.

 

So said Banana Republic panics about a man who owns an allotment and makes his own jam, while its racist narcissist of a Prime Minister attracts more and more support. It's laughable. BUT CORBYN BUT CORBYN BUT CORBYN! Utterly ridiculous. A nation beyond help and beyond hope.

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 hours ago, kingantti1874 said:

absolutely obvious, and it will probably work.. they have remain in a corner with no way out!! 

 

the SNP are flapping like ****- the last thing they expected was that they’d actually get a deal.. their independence master plan in the gutter.

 

 the Lib Dem’s revoke policy will be dead overnight.

 

labour - enough of their MP’s will vote it through IMO and they won’t want the blame at their doorstep, they will try and force a confirmatory referrendum first of course but that will probably fail.

 

they should have got the vote of no confidence done 2 weeks ago, instead they’ve spent it fighting over who’s be the temporary leader 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️

 

Everything will be great.

[jamb0_1874]

15 hours ago, Jambo-Jimbo said:

 

Do you think Boris has that amount of influence with Juncker, Tusk & Barnier et al, because I don't.

 

As Barack has said the EU want brexit over with as much as the UK does and the can has to stop getting kicked down the road.

 

Exactly the EU want brexit over with as much as Boris does. However Westminster seem content to be stuck in this neverending cycle that we have been for the past few years. So how does Boris break this cycle, by getting help from his EU friends by asking them to say that there will be no extension. Not about power or influence over anybody is just a win win for everybody.

[ri Alban]

6 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Everything will be great.

The SNP are flapping. The war is already won on independence, nothing or no-one will stop it.

[jamb0_1874]

1 minute ago, ri Alban said:

The SNP are flapping. The war is already won on independence, nothing or no-one will stop it.

The blinkeredness in the whole independence issue is just as bad as the brexit / non brexit one.

 

Personally I think SNP want the chaos to continue so that they can try and push independence through under the radar while the brexit chaos is rumbling on.

 

IF brexit is finally done and the UK leaves the EU then will there be any desire from the public and the even the politicians to go through what they have recently all over again as everybody is so ground down and done with politics after what they have witnessed over the past few years that the last thing most will want is another similar situation over independence

[ri Alban]

26 minutes ago, jamb0_1874 said:

The blinkeredness in the whole independence issue is just as bad as the brexit / non brexit one.

 

Personally I think SNP want the chaos to continue so that they can try and push independence through under the radar while the brexit chaos is rumbling on.

 

IF brexit is finally done and the UK leaves the EU then will there be any desire from the public and the even the politicians to go through what they have recently all over again as everybody is so ground down and done with politics after what they have witnessed over the past few years that the last thing most will want is another similar situation over independence

Too late. Unlucky!

 

Btw, the UDI talk is now put to bed, as what would stop a Unionist majority (If they were to form a Scottish government) taking Scotland back into the Union.

Indyref2 will happen in between March and May 2020. Oh, before you say it. It's covered, the UK government can't stop it.

[ri Alban]

41 minutes ago, jamb0_1874 said:

The blinkeredness in the whole independence issue is just as bad as the brexit / non brexit one.

 

Personally I think SNP want the chaos to continue so that they can try and push independence through under the radar while the brexit chaos is rumbling on.

 

IF brexit is finally done and the UK leaves the EU then will there be any desire from the public and the even the politicians to go through what they have recently all over again as everybody is so ground down and done with politics after what they have witnessed over the past few years that the last thing most will want is another similar situation over independence

Listen bud. We're all entitled to our beliefs. But please answer me this. Why is ok for England to take back control and not Scotland. Why is ok for a country 10 times the size of its partner, to have the sovereignty held at its parliament, have full control over its partner, for example freedom of movement, currency, and trade. But... No, no way that its bigger partner, which happens to be 10 times bigger than it, can have such things, no they can GTF? 

Edited October 18, 2019 by ri Alban

[Joey J J Jr Shabadoo]

2 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Listen bud. We're all entitled to our beliefs. But please answer me this. Why is ok for England to take back control and not Scotland. Why is ok for a country 10 times the size of its partner, to have the sovereignty held at its parliament, have full control over its partner and have freedom of movement, currency, trade etc... over its smaller partner. But... No, no way that it's bigger partner which happens to be 10 times bigger than it, can GTF? 

The English brown nosers will never be able to answer that. Or (as someone previously asked) who they would need to beg to if they wanted out of the union.

 

The union is archaic nonsense, with unelected Church of England bishops helping make laws for the Scots to obey. We need to break away from that.

[Brighton Jambo]

9 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Laughable you think Labour is somehow to blame for anti semitism. 

 

You do that for your own reasons. 

 

Corbyn and others would fight to protect Jews. Would you? 

Of course I would hence I am the only one on here challenging the level of denial going on around the toxic Labour Party.

 

also stop making this personal towards me.  This latest chat stemmed from yet another labour MP resigning and explicitly citing this issue as one of the main reasons.  So it’s not my view it’s hers that I was highlighting.  

 

But it no matter how many labour people come out and say it, or resign over it, or incidences like the Mural etc, you are on here claiming it’s all nonsense and people like me have an agenda.  

[ri Alban]

7 minutes ago, Joey J J Jr Shabadoo said:

The English brown nosers will never be able to answer that. Or (as someone previously asked) who they would need to beg to if they wanted out of the union.

 

The union is archaic nonsense, with unelected Church of England bishops helping make laws for the Scots to obey. We need to break away from that.

Exactly! A lot of our ancestors will be rolling in their graves. Died for nothing.

[shaun.lawson]

9 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

Boot out Momentum and I'll start voting Labour again. 

 

I'm probably going to regret asking this question, but hey ho.

 

Have you ever come into contact with Momentum in any way, shape or form?

[The Mighty Thor]

6 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

You don't even know what the working definition or the examples are, do you? Us Jews have one holy text. The Torah. People like you don't get to dictate to Jews like me - least of all, a grandson of a Holocaust survivor, like me - what antisemitism is or isn't. Nor does a working definition (ie. a definition which, by its very wording, is still under construction) which has rightly been rejected by huge numbers of countries and organisations because its examples are a nonsense which chill pro-Palestinian speech. And my source on that latter point? Only the author of the definition himself.

 

Here's the background on Louise Ellman. Not that you'll read it, of course. 

 

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/louise-ellman-and-the-war-on-riverside-labour-party-jvl-exclusive/

 

In the meantime, if Labour don't win the forthcoming election, the Tories will. That's the Tories who, er, implement racist policies every single day. Racist on immigration, racist on refugees, sending Afghan kids back to their deaths and Nigerian refugees into sex trafficking - but I don't hear a word from you on that. How odd. Ditto, the worst humanitarian catastrophe on planet Earth in which Yemeni children are blown to pieces by British weapons so we can profit. But hey ho, who cares?

 

The very same Tories have a membership who have the following delightful views:

 

- 67% believe there are areas of Britain that operate under Sharia law

- 60% believe that Islam is a threat to Western civilisation

- 56% believe that Islam is a threat to the British way of life

- 45% believe there are areas of Britain that non-Muslims are unable to enter

- 43% "would prefer not to have the country led by a Muslim"

- 40% believe Britain should lower the number of Muslims entering the country

- 8% - just 8%! - "would be proud of Britain if we were to elect a Muslim as our Prime Minister".

 

These are the people who gave us Boris. The Islamophobic Boris, the corrupt beyond belief Boris, the compulsive liar Boris, the man who decided to support Brexit purely to help his career, who ensured Nazanin Nazari Ratcliffe would remain under lock and key, who wanted journalists beaten up, who appears to have committed misconduct in public office. But y'know, you can't blame him! Get her pumped. WHAT A LAD. 

 

All this going on - with the Tories refusing to hold an inquiry into Islamophobia in their party (naturally so, because it's completely rampant), and hate crimes against Muslims at four times the level of hate crimes against Jews. So does it receive four times the amount of reporting? Does the public even know the figures I've just set out above? No chance. And you know why? Because in the Banana Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Muslims don't count. They're non-people. An irrelevance.

 

So said Banana Republic panics about a man who owns an allotment and makes his own jam, while its racist narcissist of a Prime Minister attracts more and more support. It's laughable. BUT CORBYN BUT CORBYN BUT CORBYN! Utterly ridiculous. A nation beyond help and beyond hope.

 

And yet despite all that the Tories will absolutely piss the next election. 

 

Why?

 

Perhaps some of the things you already raise.

Anti-semitism - Does labour have a problem with it? Yes. Is it dealing with it? No. They're arguing about the IHRA definition of it.

Brexit - what's today's policy? 

Corbyn has been behind the curve from the start on Brexit and now his MPs will deliver it on a plate to Johnson on Saturday and consign Labour to pissing and moaning about the impact whilst in opposition for the next 10 years at least. 

Labour are a party in disarray caught between tectonic plates of the momentum group and the dinosaurs running the unions. They can't decide what to stand for and that translates straight to the ballot box. 

[kingantti1874]

44 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I'm probably going to regret asking this question, but hey ho.

 

Have you ever come into contact with Momentum in any way, shape or form?

this question wasn’t to me, but I’ll answer anyway.. they were the driving force behind Corbyn And his cronies and that is a bad thing.. dragged that party to far to the left..  extreme politics don’t work.. you have to find the middle ground 

[Boris]

Just now, kingantti1874 said:

this question wasn’t to me, but I’ll answer anyway.. they were the driving force behind Corbyn And his cronies and that is a bad thing.. dragged that party to far to the left..  extreme politics don’t work.. you have to find the middle ground 

 

Johnson seems to be doing ok...

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

53 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Anti-semitism - Does labour have a problem with it? Yes. Is it dealing with it? No. They're arguing about the IHRA definition of it.

 

No, it doesn't. That you think it does is because of the media. In the meantime, if it's your belief that a Palestinian whose family was either murdered or displaced by Israel should not be allowed to call that "racist" and is "antisemitic" if they do, do tell. Because that's the consequence of the IHRA examples.

 

Quote

Brexit - what's today's policy? 

 

Labour's policy on Brexit has essentially remained the same since September 2018, when it was agreed at Party Conference. That you don't know what it is is because of the media. That policy was:

 

- Vote May's deal down

- Seek a general election

- If a general election could not be achieved, leave all options open

- And avoid No Deal at all costs

 

So they voted May's deal down. They failed with the No Confidence Vote. Leaving all options open turned into the entirely sensible "we'll seek a deal but we'll put it to the public alongside Remain in a referendum". And they've continued to prevent No Deal at all costs. 

 

I know you'll sit there laughing at me blaming the media, but if so, you're clearly suffering from amnesia.

 

1. What was Ed Miliband's treatment by the media?

2. What was Gordon Brown's treatment by the media?

3. What was Neil Kinnock's treatment by the media?

4. What was Michael Foot's treatment by the media?

 

The one and only 'Labour' leader who received reasonable treatment only did so because he was bought and paid for by the media. Said 'Labour' leader's approach abandoned the poor and working class. Tremendous.

 

Rupert Murdoch bought The Times and Sunday Times in 1981. Since when, never, not once, has he ever got the result in any election or referendum which he specifically didn't want. If that doesn't tell you something about the real state of things in this Banana Republic, I've no idea what will.

 

Because of media lies about everything, each and every day, all the time, the esteemed British public has swallowed whole the following:

 

1. Labour, a political party in Western Europe, somehow caused a global financial crash

2. Labour "spent all the money" (memo to the public: sovereign states in charge of their own money supply cannot run out of money)

3. We have to "live within our means" (no country anywhere has done so in 400 years; the consequences of which have been nothing other than growth, progress, and development)

4. The reason Britain is losing money isn't bankers, fat cats or offshore accounts in the Bahamas - it's the poor, disabled, unemployed and immigrants

5. Welfare is a "lifestyle choice" (which it certainly is for private landlords, to whom much of the 'welfare' bill goes to)

6. Ed Miliband was a "danger to Britain" because he looked a bit odd eating a bacon sandwich

7. Britain faced a choice of "stability" with Cameron, or a "coalition of chaos" with Miliband

8. Britain is threatened by "swarms of migrants"

9. The reason Britain is in such a mess isn't the policies of its ever further right wing government. By some impossible miracle, it's the EU

10. Anyone wanting to come to Britain does so for our "generous benefits" (which are among the lowest in the whole of Europe)

11. Judges and MPs are "the enemies of the people"

12. We'll spend 350m on the NHS every week if we Brexit... despite Brexit meaning we lose money, lots of it

13. Turkey is going to join the EU (that every EU member state has a veto is apparently irrelevant)

14. Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nigel Farage are on the side of ordinary people

15. A small majority of a rigged franchise which ignored EU citizens and ignored young people represents "the will of the people"

16. Those people protesting against an existential threat to the planet and our entire species are "layabouts who just want to skip a day of school"

17. Non-existent "technological solutions" could somehow solve the problem of the Irish border

18. The protracted negotiations with the EU are all the EU's fault, for sticking with rules which apply to its entire membership, not breaking the rules for a country which is leaving

19. All those people below age 50 who've been priced out of the housing market forever at a time of wages being stagnant for over a decade and house prices skyrocketing for decades would easily be able to afford a deposit if they didn't eat "avocado toast"

20. Labour is "antisemitic". 

 

And many, many, many more. Funny how we'd "run out of money" when it came to schools, hospitals, not allowing disabled people to die in their droves... but the money was magically there when it came to bribing a bunch of bigots, bombing Syria and preparing for No Deal, huh?

 

Will Labour lose the election? Almost certainly, yes. The reason it will do so has rather less to do with Corbyn, rather more to do with its corrupt beyond imagination media and political class. Not to mention its ill-informed, nasty, callous, thick as bloody mince public. Which voted to set itself on fire to make a point - and apparently, wants to continue the same system which led to such despair in the first place. 

 

To hell with them. And to hell with Britain. The most corrupt country in the world - according to the leading expert on the mafia on the planet. The articles below detail what the British public believes about various issues. I'd be ashamed if I still lived somewhere whose people are so mindbogglingly ignorant about absolutely everything.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/immigration-obesity-and-religion-11-charts-that-show-british-people-are-completely-wrong-about-a6757551.html

Edited October 18, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[The Real Maroonblood]

19 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Johnson seems to be doing ok...

 

 

[shaun.lawson]

26 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

this question wasn’t to me, but I’ll answer anyway.. they were the driving force behind Corbyn And his cronies and that is a bad thing.. dragged that party to far to the left..  extreme politics don’t work.. you have to find the middle ground 

 

There is nothing 'extreme' about Corbyn. Nothing whatsoever. What is 'extreme' about renationalising the railways, investing in infrastructure, bringing utilities back into public ownership and ensuring the rich pay the most? Do tell most of continental Europe - whose quality of life makes Britain look like the backwards backwater it truly is - how 'extreme' it is. Much of it has the exact same policies. 

 

There's people on here who complained forever and a day about how Scottish Labour totally lost touch with them and took them for granted. And they're completely, 100% right in that. Those very same people then turn around and panic about... grassroots activists in a democracy! Absolutely amazing. And those very same people didn't vote Labour in 2015 either. When a more watered down version of the Labour Party was on offer, they didn't just reject it. They annihilated it. Now it's "why can't we have that centrist, do nothing party back?" It's laughable.

Edited October 18, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[kingantti1874]

21 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

Johnson seems to be doing ok...

 

 

not really, the centre vote is split and he’s united people around brexshit.. it won’t last

[kingantti1874]

1 minute ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

There is nothing 'extreme' about Corbyn. Nothing whatsoever. What is 'extreme' about renationalising the railways, investing in infrastructure, bringing utilities back into public ownership and ensuring the rich pay the most? Do tell most of continental Europe - whose quality of life makes Britain looks like the backwards backwater it truly is - how 'extreme' it is. Much of it has the exact same policies. 

 

There's people on here who complained forever and a day about how Scottish Labour totally lost touch with them and took them for granted. And they're completely, 100% right in that. Those very same people then turn around and panic about... grassroots activists in a democracy! Absolutely amazing. And those very same people didn't vote Labour in 2015 either. When a more watered down version of the Labour Party was on offer, they didn't just reject it. They annihilated it. Now it's "why can't we have that centrist, do nothing party back?" It's laughable.

your losing your shit here shaun, this seems to have touched a nerve, this labour parties proposed style of government doesn’t work, it’s never worked, all administrations which have gone down this route have busted the bank sooner or later
 

For example - You may not like it but you can’t just hammer the rich, they will take their talents and their taxes elsewhere, you can’t just “re distribute the assets of private schools, why would anyone pay for private school - it would add up to billions on additional costs.. Nationalising the rail service - how would we pay for that?  It’s a complete fantasy

 

any party who’s aim is to equalise, and remove the reward of achievement will fail.. 

 

none of that means you can’t make it fairer..

 

Jeremy Corbyn will never be PM, a labour government proposing this style of government will never be elected. Sooner labour realise this and move back towards the middle the better

[shaun.lawson]

12 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

your losing your shit here shaun, this seems to have touched a nerve, this labour parties proposed style of government doesn’t work, it’s never worked, all administrations which have gone down this route have busted the bank sooner or later
 

For example - You may not like it but you can’t just hammer the rich, they will take their talents and their taxes elsewhere, you can’t just “re distribute the assets of private schools, why would anyone pay for private school - it would add up to billions on additional costs.. Nationalising the rail service - how would we pay for that?  It’s a complete fantasy

 

any party who’s aim is to equalise, and remove the reward of achievement will fail.. 

 

none of that means you can’t make it fairer..

 

Jeremy Corbyn will never be PM, a labour government proposing this style of government will never be elected. Sooner labour realise this and move back towards the middle the better

 

I hate to break this to you Antti, but at a time of wages having been stagnant for over a decade, global recession again on its way, and climate crisis already biting, 'the middle' doesn't work. It offers nothing whatsoever. 

 

Tell me why everything you've said above hasn't applied to Portugal, whose socialist government is doing a brilliant job? Tell me why it didn't apply to Scandinavia for decades - the same Scandinavia whose members always finish top of quality of life, wellbeing and democracy surveys? 

 

And on the subject of 'busting the bank':

 

 

 

 

 

Tremendous.

Edited October 18, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Boris]

11 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

your losing your shit here shaun, this seems to have touched a nerve, this labour parties proposed style of government doesn’t work, it’s never worked, all administrations which have gone down this route have busted the bank sooner or later
 

For example - You may not like it but you can’t just hammer the rich, they will take their talents and their taxes elsewhere, you can’t just “re distribute the assets of private schools, why would anyone pay for private school - it would add up to billions on additional costs.. Nationalising the rail service - how would we pay for that?  It’s a complete fantasy

 

any party who’s aim is to equalise, and remove the reward of achievement will fail.. a

 

none of that means you can’t make it fairer..

 

Jeremy Corbyn will never be PM, a labour government proposing this style of government will never be elected. Sooner labour realise this and move back towards the middle the better

 

That's not really what Labour are about though, but that is the propaganda against it.  They want to create a society where everyone has the opportunity to achieve and succeed.  This system doesn't exploit that potential to its full.  IMO.

 

Re public schools, leave them be, but they aren't charities, they are businesses.  So treat them as such.

 

Rail could easily be nationalised - the continent offers many examples and models.  Just because these things were supposedly rubbish in the 70's (I was a kid then so have no real consciousness of how good public services were then) doesn't mean they would be now.  Similarly, industrial relations have moved on too.

 

And it's not simply about taxing the rich.  Sure, the rich will pay more, that's what happens now.  It's about the avoiders and evaders, about setting up systems so earnings, individuals and corporate bodies, are taxed accordingly and aren't squirelled away in off shore tax free havens.  

 

It's a tory smear to suggest that it would be back to that.  IMO.

[shaun.lawson]

10 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

That's not really what Labour are about though, but that is the propaganda against it.  They want to create a society where everyone has the opportunity to achieve and succeed.  This system doesn't exploit that potential to its full.  IMO.

 

Re public schools, leave them be, but they aren't charities, they are businesses.  So treat them as such.

 

Rail could easily be nationalised - the continent offers many examples and models.  Just because these things were supposedly rubbish in the 70's (I was a kid then so have no real consciousness of how good public services were then) doesn't mean they would be now.  Similarly, industrial relations have moved on too.

 

And it's not simply about taxing the rich.  Sure, the rich will pay more, that's what happens now.  It's about the avoiders and evaders, about setting up systems so earnings, individuals and corporate bodies, are taxed accordingly and aren't squirelled away in off shore tax free havens.  

 

It's a tory smear to suggest that it would be back to that.  IMO.

 

Yeah but yeah but, all the rich will leave and our glorious success of:

 

- Trebling the debt in a decade

 

- Presiding over wages which remain below 2008 levels

 

- Overseeing skyrocketing levels of homelessness

 

- Killing at least 130,000 people and likely far more

 

- Pricing young people out of the housing market forever

 

- Being condemned, twice, by the United Nations, for our treatment of the poor and the disabled

 

- Turning ourselves into an international laughing stock for over 3 years

 

Will stop! 

 

It's Stockholm Syndrome, pure and simple. That's how brainwashed so many people are. But then, in a nation which is so dumb, its people seriously believe that "running a country is like running a household budget" (except when it comes to investing in their businesses or taking out their mortgages, of course), it's no surprise.

Edited October 18, 2019 by shaun.lawson

[Justin Z]

44 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

For example - You may not like it but you can’t just hammer the rich, they will take their talents and their taxes elsewhere

 

This right here is some classic American fairy tale bullshit

 

45 minutes ago, kingantti1874 said:

It’s a complete fantasy

 

Yes it is