Brighton Jambo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Now the politicking really begins. Yes we have a deal, is it a great deal, almost certainly not but if politicians vote it down they will need to have clear reasons as to why and what they want instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdy Doody Jambo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Probably struggle to get it through parliament but may go for an extension and through to a general election this will go on and on and on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50077384 and another one. Not fit to be leader she says. As well as “ "Jewish members have been bullied, abused and driven out," Dame Louise added in her letter. "A party that permits anti-Jewish racism to flourish cannot be called anti-racist. "This is not compatible with the Labour Party's values of equality, tolerance and respect for minorities. "My values - traditional Labour values - have remained the same. It is Labour, under Jeremy Corbyn, that has changed." no doubt you will find reason to discredit her as well. Maybe time to get your head out the sand and wake up to what’s happening in labour. Good stuff. Some people sticking to principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 I hope this happens. UK Parliament says put it to the people. “Deal on offer or remain.” Keep it simple let the People decide. One time vote only winner takes all. I say that because of what I’ve witnessed over the past 3 and 1/2 years those who we gave power too are so divided in many ways it needs to be taken out of their hands. My vote would be Remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Labour won't vote for a straight Deal when it knows that hands an election victory to the Conservatives. But it is possible the vote on Saturday will approve the deal subject to a Referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: This This will give politicians the excuse to reject the deal but I think the general public won’t have much sympathy at all with DUP position. May even harden a few minds to support the deal. I can see Corbyn clearly using this as a reason to whip labour to reject deal but that will harm him yet further in the polls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 A Referendum will take around 6 months to agree and organise so that needs a longer extension. Probably to June 2020. Then complicated by whether there is an election. New Government could scrap the Referendum. That brings into play possibility of a vote of no confidence and caretaker Government to implement the Referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 I’m watching Sky at the moment and if anyone wants evidence that those within the Westminster Bubble and MPs can’t agree and continue to squabble this is the best example I could give. They don’t know, they have many answers but none solve the issue of separation. Give it back to the people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Good stuff. Some people sticking to principles. What has Jewish members being bullied got to do with what you posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gashauskis9 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: Now the politicking really begins. Yes we have a deal, is it a great deal, almost certainly not but if politicians vote it down they will need to have clear reasons as to why and what they want instead I suspect MPs will now put careers before constituents and vote for the deal. I can see a majority now even without DUP, as the ex-tories who lost the vote (excluding Grieve) will vote for it and I suspect a fair whack of Labour MPs know that they’ll be ousted at the next GE if they stop it from happening. The ERG will back it, because they’d look stupid proving all this support for Boris both on the back benches and in cabinet if they weren’t going to see it through with him. Their excuse will be that it was all about having a deal and that they at least avoided no deal. Corbyn hasn’t got the balls to sack his own, so it will be a free vote. It’ll be close, but it will go through. Corbyn will then go down the vote of no confidence route and fail. Boris will then call a GE off his own back and trounce it with a majority giving him a mandate to **** Britain for another 5 years. IndyRef2 will then get bashed about and we’ll be divided evermore. We’re ****ed! Edited October 17, 2019 by Gashauskis9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Z Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Brighton Jambo said: What has Jewish members being bullied got to do with what you posted? From the article: This was, in the US, a codifying of the exact sort of smears you have seen in the UK. Mikey's pointing out that many--not just Ungar-Sargon--are using a religious identity to shield what's actually being criticised: their reprehensible views. They're being criticised because they've taken shitty positions, not because of their Jewishness, and they seek to silence this criticism by levelling intellectually dishonest allegations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) Text of Deal has been published Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said: Text of Deal has been published Have you got a link please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) https://www.ft.com/content/63a605e8-3180-39dd-aad0-bbfe635a3b59 Edited October 17, 2019 by Dannie Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hughesie27 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) A wee simple run down of what has changed and been agreed would be appreciated. Is it a wolf in sheeps clothing? Barnier seems happy with it. He just mentioned that they have agreed that neither side will apply fees or tariffs for goods. As our closest trading partner doesn't that do the UK out of potential income that Leave voters would have been kicking their lips over? Edited October 17, 2019 by hughesie27 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 The simple majority in N.Ireland Assembly for arrangements is sensible. DUP appear to have wanted a veto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said: Have you got a link please? See above (my edit) Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB52 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: What has Jewish members being bullied got to do with what you posted? I presume he was showing the depths some people will go to in order to attack anyone who stands up for the Palestinian people against the Zionist atrocities Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said: See above Thanks 👍🏻 64 pages! 😳 it will take me forever to read and understand 😂 I’m not the quickest😬 Edited October 17, 2019 by Dannie Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, hughesie27 said: A wee simple run down of what has changed and been agreed would be appreciated. Is it a wolf in sheeps clothing? Barnier seems happy with it. He says only change is N.Ireland / border arrangements / affects in Ireland. It's a fudge around customs whereby goods at risk of ending up in Europe need checked before they enter N.Ireland. N.Ireland Assembly gets a say through majority vote. Political Declaration on future trading relationships has been changed. Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) Corbyn’s on board, not. No surprise there.Although he’s says give it to the people for final say. Edited October 17, 2019 by Dannie Boy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIEIO Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: He says only change is N.Ireland / border arrangements. It's a fudge around customs whereby goods at risk of ending up in Europe need checked before they enter N.Ireland. N.Ireland Assembly gets a say through majority vote.. The N. Ireland assembly that's not met for 3 years? Sounds simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 The indication has been given that any Tory MPs voting against the Deal will lose Whip (effectively expelled from party). Government majority could be heading near minus 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 It's the same as it was. Backstop remains in place, to be activated if the main deal falters. All that changed was the UK gave up some of it's contradictory red lines to make the border run down the middle of the Irish sea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 3 minutes ago, EIEIO said: The N. Ireland assembly that's not met for 3 years? Sounds simple. that’s what I was thinking although (if the Deal is ratified) it might drag the factions back into Stormont as by not sitting they have no real say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 11 minutes ago, Cade said: It's the same as it was. Backstop remains in place, to be activated if the main deal falters. All that changed was the UK gave up some of it's contradictory red lines to make the border run down the middle of the Irish sea. The deal Teresa May had around Dec 2017 scuppered by the DUP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Link to Political Declaration https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/revised-political-declaration_en Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EIEIO Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: The deal Teresa May had around Dec 2017 scuppered by the DUP. Not just DUP though by Boris, Rees Mogg and their band of charlatans too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Corbyn says he won’t vote for the deal whilst admitting he hasn’t read it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said: Corbyn says he won’t vote for the deal whilst admitting he hasn’t read it What has improved then for Labour to support it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said: What has improved then for Labour to support it? The fact that they are adamant that they will do absolutely anything to avoid no deal. Well we now have a deal so vote for it and avoid no deal. lets not pretend for one second that Corbyn will vote it down because he doesn’t agree with the content. It’s all politics and he wants to force a general election before a deal is done as he knows if one that takes place after brexit is agreed he will get an even bigger hammering than he is currently on course for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 32 minutes ago, EIEIO said: The N. Ireland assembly that's not met for 3 years? Sounds simple. 28 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said: that’s what I was thinking although (if the Deal is ratified) it might drag the factions back into Stormont as by not sitting they have no real say. First vote seems now to be 4 years after deal is implemented. So as it stands have till Nov 2024 to get back running. (If deal is passed it starts Dec 2020 unless transition period is extended which it likely will have to be) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: The fact that they are adamant that they will do absolutely anything to avoid no deal. Well we now have a deal so vote for it and avoid no deal. lets not pretend for one second that Corbyn will vote it down because he doesn’t agree with the content. It’s all politics and he wants to force a general election before a deal is done as he knows if one that takes place after brexit is agreed he will get an even bigger hammering than he is currently on course for. What is different in this deal to the last one to allow Labour to support it? Labour have been playing politics but their practical objection is the Political Declaration. They want a Customs Union with EU and close alignment to the single market. Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton Jambo Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Mikey1874 said: What is different in this deal to the last one to allow Labour to support it? Backstop removed and more importantly it ensures no deal which corbyn keeps telling us is his priority. Heres a question for you. And be honest. Do you believe there could be any deal that a conservative government could get that Corbyn would vote for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: Backstop removed and more importantly it ensures no deal which corbyn keeps telling us is his priority. Heres a question for you. And be honest. Do you believe there could be any deal that a conservative government could get that Corbyn would vote for? Yes As above. A Customs Union with EU and close alignment with single market. Including keeping all employment, economic and environmental standards. What will happen if they win election. Rejected at every stage by Conservative Governments. Edited October 17, 2019 by Mikey1874 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, Brighton Jambo said: The fact that they are adamant that they will do absolutely anything to avoid no deal. Well we now have a deal so vote for it and avoid no deal. lets not pretend for one second that Corbyn will vote it down because he doesn’t agree with the content. It’s all politics and he wants to force a general election before a deal is done as he knows if one that takes place after brexit is agreed he will get an even bigger hammering than he is currently on course for. Quite probably, however I wonder if Farage may take the hump and try to rally the "Brextremists" and split the Tory vote? Johnson could be portrayed as a failure, given deal is supposed to be worse than the May deal? Probably not, but perhaps that's Corbyn's hope? That said, if Brexit is out of the way, Corbyn can focus on domestic issues which resonated well at the last GE. Sadly though, for the UK, they get saddled with Johnson for another five years and a working majority. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 This ain't happening and i think the PM knows it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 The problem for the Tories is that in their rhetoric of 'no deal is better than a bad deal', they have created a monster in the form of the Brexit Party loons who are hell bent on there being a 'clean break' Brexit and who will now likely perceive this deal to be a betrayal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dobmisterdobster Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Of course Nigel Farage doesn't like this deal. Anything less than No Deal and a Brexit Party electoral pact isn't good enough for him. Its clear that he now only cares about his future political career and is desperate to try and stay relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, dobmisterdobster said: Of course Nigel Farage doesn't like this deal. Anything less than No Deal and a Brexit Party electoral pact isn't good enough for him. Its clear that he now only cares about his future political career and is desperate to try and stay relevant. His hedge fund puppet masters probably won't profit to the extent he hoped they would from the £ not crashing to the same extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_T Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 My guess is that in the subsequent trade negotiations, away from the same glare of publicity that the political declaration generates, we will end up very closely, if not exactly aligned with the current EU regulatory framework. The UK Government can then claim to have delivered Brexit whilst in reality not much other than restricted freedom of movement, will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notts1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Martin_T said: His hedge fund puppet masters probably won't profit to the extent he hoped they would from the £ not crashing to the same extent. Farage doesn't actually want Brexit to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 So since May's deal was rejected by Parliament in the biggest defeat in living memory, the UK has caved on on its red lines and has made concessions. Boris hopes to get this lesser deal through Parliament on saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DETTY29 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 31 minutes ago, dobmisterdobster said: Of course Nigel Farage doesn't like this deal. Anything less than No Deal and a Brexit Party electoral pact isn't good enough for him. Its clear that he now only cares about his future political career and is desperate to try and stay relevant. I believe 10/10 despite all his rhetoric that he hates politics, and the political elite (EU MEP; defacto political party leader; national radio political talk show host; newspaper political columnist plus his working past) 29 minutes ago, Martin_T said: His hedge fund puppet masters probably won't profit to the extent he hoped they would from the £ not crashing to the same extent. Again 10/10 22 minutes ago, Notts1874 said: Farage doesn't actually want Brexit to happen. I'll give this an 8/10. He needs to be politically relevant for his own ego. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said: What has improved then for Labour to support it? my point was he admitted he would not vote for it whilst not having read the text. As for any improvement Corbyn is anti EU and I suspect he like the SNP (for reasons we all know) would never vote for it no matter what changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey1874 Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 6 minutes ago, Dannie Boy said: my point was he admitted he would not vote for it whilst not having read the text. As for any improvement Corbyn is anti EU and I suspect he like the SNP (for reasons we all know) would never vote for it no matter what changed. Because it was pretty obvious this was just about the Backstop. Labour want a full Customs Union. Was that being offered at any stage by Boris Johnson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Footballfirst Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 DUP requirements for supporting the Boris deal: Another bung of £1.5bn A "No Surrender" Act The pound to increase in value to €1.1690 Or more practically, a work around for Stormont to prevent N Ireland falling into line with UK laws on abortion and same sex marriage, as is due to happen on Monday in the absence of a vote by Stormont (which is dormant at the moment). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 30 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said: Because it was pretty obvious this was just about the Backstop. Labour want a full Customs Union. Was that being offered at any stage by Boris Johnson? That is something that will negotiate in the future once we have agreed to exit. The real deal has not yet started as Johnston has just said in his joint statement with Junker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Dan Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Amendments now possible in the UK Parliament. Back to square one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cade Posted October 17, 2019 Share Posted October 17, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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