Ann Budge update

[DH1986]

Keep forgetting Levein wanted Cathro before Robbie. Had that happened we would still be in the Championship!

CL wanted IC for the U20's not the first team.

 

 

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[CJGJ]

Both were emailed, because I could not attend. One was answered (2014), the other not (2015).

So it was that important you have not bothered since 2015

[socrates82]

I would argue that cups are actually vitally important to the club, both from a fan and financial viewpoint. We have absolutely no hope of winning the league (I always hoped we would, every season) and so they are the only opportunity of success. They also bring in a hell of a lot of money.

My post proved that they are not vitally important, in terms of being essential to the health of the club and the support, given our very poor record in them over the last few years.

[yabadabadoo1874again]

So basically, no-one posting here has any insight about what may actually happen re the head coach. You have to admire the way Tynecastle is locked down these days.

Good point.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

What a bizarre groupthink pile on going on here. It's okay to dissent, it's okay to hold different points of view. Someone might thing AB is not doing a good job (and btw the poster getting grief here hasn't even said that) and I would disagree with that but if they're putting across an opinion in an informed, polite way, who cares?

[luckydug]

Both were emailed, because I could not attend. One was answered (2014), the other not (2015).

 

Any chance of you turning up personally this year and presenting your points in the same way as you have done on JKB ? 

[Footballfirst]

So it was that important you have not bothered since 2015

The breakdown of the ?472k? No it wasn't that important.  Like most questions I ask they are a matter of personal interest. Any answers given allow me to form a better understanding of the information provided in the club's annual report or in other statements.

[socrates82]

This all reminds a bit of the Fergus McCann situation at Celtic.....

 

A section of supporters are being extremely short sighted and impatient....also questioning methods, decisions and even querying financial matters.

 

When McCann sold his shares that club was in a ridiculously sound position and it hasn't really looked back.

 

I expect us to be in a similar position and leaving a section of our supporters feeling a little sheepish.

 

 

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Very similar, including the 5 year plan idea. A lot of Celtic fans were made to look complete fools over McCann. Same thing is happening with some of our support it seems.

[john5698]

FF's posts are rarely if ever inaccurate, though I think his wording on the post about moneys put in and money's taken out could have been more felicitously worded.

 

I can't actually find the ?419,000 referred to but FF identified about ?750,000 of other costs (not including the interest on the loan) which I assume included your ?419,000. None of those were paid out of Anne's pocket and so did not expose her to risk.

Agreed his wording should have been better put, the point was, he stated that over and above the ?2.4 million he stated Ann Budge had invested a further ?419,000, she will have been exposed over those monies.

[luckydug]

What a bizarre groupthink pile on going on here. It's okay to dissent, it's okay to hold different points of view. Someone might thing AB is not doing a good job (and btw the poster getting grief here hasn't even said that) and I would disagree with that but if they're putting across an opinion in an informed, polite way, who cares?

 

Point is he (FF) isn't putting his opinion in a polite way.

He is making cleverly worded insinuations .

Be interesting to see if he has the balls to show up at the AGM personally and put across his points in the same manner.

[Footballfirst]

Any chance of you turning up personally this year and presenting your points in the same way as you have done on JKB ? 

Like every year, it will depend on the date and time of the AGM, whether or not I am free to attend.

 

However, I'm not aware that I have actually posed any substantive questions in my earlier posts.  The figures posted are historical ones from previous annual reports.  If there is anything that comes up in this year's annual report that merits me asking further questions then I will do so.

[john5698]

This all reminds a bit of the Fergus McCann situation at Celtic.....

 

A section of supporters are being extremely short sighted and impatient....also questioning methods, decisions and even querying financial matters.

 

When McCann sold his shares that club was in a ridiculously sound position and it hasn't really looked back.

 

I expect us to be in a similar position and leaving a section of our supporters feeling a little sheepish.

 

 

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This is a post that is very accurate regarding the similarities, fingers crossed it works out in a similar manner.

[Bowmans_Boot]

My post proved that they are not vitally important, in terms of being essential to the health of the club and the support, given our very poor record in them over the last few years.

I doubt that would last, to be honest. If we continue to get knocked out of every cup early and finish 3rd/4th then the fans will get fed up. We need decent cup runs or else the seasons are boring.

[Victorian]

Same characters still droning on about sterile facts and figures. Monies in, monies out, exposure to risk, securities, legacies. Still not enough onus being placed on the non-financial, human intangibles.

 

Criticise her if you want. You have a right to an opinion. If you choose to portray a picture that she stands to make inappropriate financial gain or that she only became involved to do so then you should expect to be told to **** right off and think again.

 

Don't hide behind a right to an opinion. If your opinions are in bad taste then you'll be told so.

[Footballfirst]

Agreed his wording should have been better put, the point was, he stated that over and above the ?2.4 million he stated Ann Budge had invested a further ?419,000, she will have been exposed over those monies.

If you are asking about the funds invested by Ann beyond the ?2.4m loan, then I don't believe there is any additional exposure to her. ?119k was spent on shares meaning that she now owns around 92.6% of the club. She will retain those in the event of any default by FOH.  The ?300k represents the value of interest that Ann will have waived because of the stand funding.  No money actually changes hands and again there would be no change to the situation should FOH be unable to make future payments.

[socrates82]

I doubt that would last, to be honest. If we continue to get knocked out of every cup early and finish 3rd/4th then the fans will get fed up. We need decent cup runs or else the seasons are boring.

 

 We did that and worse for many years - decades even. That's my point. You sound like an OF fan.

[Ricardo Shillyshally]

On a bit of a tangent but does anyone here think that the Save the Children sponsorship might be coming from anyone other than Ann?

[luckydug]

Same characters still droning on about sterile facts and figures. Monies in, monies out, exposure to risk, securities, legacies. Still not enough onus being placed on the non-financial, human intangibles.

 

Criticise her if you want. You have a right to an opinion. If you choose to portray a picture that she stands to make inappropriate financial gain or that she only became involved to do so then you should expect to be told to **** right off and think again.

 

Don't hide behind a right to an opinion. If your opinions are in bad taste then you'll be told so.

 

Well said  

[Bowmans_Boot]

We did that and worse for many years - decades even. That's my point. You sound like an OF fan.

Not really. We got to semis/finals regularly.

[Bull's-eye]

Same characters still droning on about sterile facts and figures. Monies in, monies out, exposure to risk, securities, legacies. Still not enough onus being placed on the non-financial, human intangibles.

 

Criticise her if you want. You have a right to an opinion. If you choose to portray a picture that she stands to make inappropriate financial gain or that she only became involved to do so then you should expect to be told to **** right off and think again.

 

Don't hide behind a right to an opinion. If your opinions are in bad taste then you'll be told so.

Nice.

[Notts1874]

Same characters still droning on about sterile facts and figures. Monies in, monies out, exposure to risk, securities, legacies. Still not enough onus being placed on the non-financial, human intangibles.

 

Criticise her if you want. You have a right to an opinion. If you choose to portray a picture that she stands to make inappropriate financial gain or that she only became involved to do so then you should expect to be told to **** right off and think again.

 

Don't hide behind a right to an opinion. If your opinions are in bad taste then you'll be told so.

I will quote this again.........excellent post.

[mitch41]

This is where the vast majority of fans stand regarding Ann Budge.

1. Grateful for putting up the money to save Hearts from liquidation.

2. Grateful for all the work she is doing running our club.

3. Grateful for the way she communicates with the fans.

4. And many other things she is behind promoting our club to the commmunity, media, business ect.

 

 

The only weakness Ann has in her locker i'd say and according to fans is her total trust in Craig Levein and his bootroom system which does not work. Promoting a coach to Head Coach on paper may look good but in reality it just doesn't work. Hearts need a Manager and i'm afraid as long as Craig Levein controls all footballing matters Ann will receive negative comments.

[john5698]

Same characters still droning on about sterile facts and figures. Monies in, monies out, exposure to risk, securities, legacies. Still not enough onus being placed on the non-financial, human intangibles.

 

Criticise her if you want. You have a right to an opinion. If you choose to portray a picture that she stands to make inappropriate financial gain or that she only became involved to do so then you should expect to be told to **** right off and think again.

 

Don't hide behind a right to an opinion. If your opinions are in bad taste then you'll be told so.

This is a great post.

[john5698]

If you are asking about the funds invested by Ann beyond the ?2.4m loan, then I don't believe there is any additional exposure to her. ?119k was spent on shares meaning that she now owns around 92.6% of the club. She will retain those in the event of any default by FOH.  The ?300k represents the value of interest that Ann will have waived because of the stand funding.  No money actually changes hands and again there would be no change to the situation should FOH be unable to make future payments.

This is what I was referring to, that is not the way you worded your initial post on the figures. If everything had gone pete tong she would have lost out in her investment due to the length of time to recoup her investment via costs to recoup as well as the loss of any interest on her investment.

[GavK1012]

Have just spent 20 mins going through this thread which is very disheartening tbh...

 

Everyone entitled to hold their opinion, but incredibly short memories some folk and clearly we have missed a trick or two not getting them on board early doors to help us in our hour of need....

 

Between their personal fortunes and business heads we could have really have kicked on beyond measure by now!!!!

 

Sad to read such negativity towards Miss B

 

People just never happy and looking to point the finger at everyone and anyone in their line of fire....

 

Its easy finding fault with others eh when you have never been in their shoes....

[socrates82]

Not really. We got to semis/finals regularly.

 

Not in the league cup we didn't. And in the Scottish cup how often did we draw Celtic as early as we have been recently?

 

The fact is we've been spoiled the last few years with two cup wins in relatively close succession, plus a LC final. The stats for our cup wins and final appearances are there for you to go through. Fact is we've won or appeared in a final every 6 years or so over our entire history. Of course in reality it doesn't work like that! We had good sides under JJ and Doddie and did well. Other times not so much. 

[Taffin]

Same characters still droning on about sterile facts and figures. Monies in, monies out, exposure to risk, securities, legacies. Still not enough onus being placed on the non-financial, human intangibles.

 

Criticise her if you want. You have a right to an opinion. If you choose to portray a picture that she stands to make inappropriate financial gain or that she only became involved to do so then you should expect to be told to **** right off and think again.

 

Don't hide behind a right to an opinion. If your opinions are in bad taste then you'll be told so.

Nobody, anywhere has said or alleged that. Only that she wasn't taking a financial risk and will stand to be financially better off from it in all likelihood.

 

Nobody has said that is wrong or unfair simply that she can't be made out to be some money gifter. She isn't, she lent it and I'm bloody grateful that she did as she didn't have to.

 

I love Nationwide as they lent me money for my house but I don't view them as saints that bought it for me.

 

Edit: also, 'bad taste' in who's opinion? Yours? You have a very high opinion of yourself and from your post you don't even appear to offer an opinion just a self policing of other people. Maybe some including myself do need to think again...some others such as yourself I imagine actually need to think for the first time rather than being spoon fed whatever you want to believe. When it comes to a forum discussing Hearts nobody should be told to **** off and think again just because they have a different opinion to somebody else.

[DH1986]

This is where the vast majority of fans stand regarding Ann Budge.

1. Grateful for putting up the money to save Hearts from liquidation.

2. Grateful for all the work she is doing running our club.

3. Grateful for the way she communicates with the fans.

4. And many other things she is behind promoting our club to the commmunity, media, business ect.

 

 

The only weakness Ann has in her locker i'd say and according to fans is her total trust in Craig Levein and his bootroom system which does not work. Promoting a coach to Head Coach on paper may look good but in reality it just doesn't work. Hearts need a Manager and i'm afraid as long as Craig Levein controls all footballing matters Ann will receive negative comments.

Just because it hasn't worked yet doesn't mean it won't work.

 

It's not a quick fix system and will take years to develop properly....just like having to practically restart out entire youth system. 3 years is nothing when looking to initiate a system like this.

 

The problem folk like yourself have is they're really only interested in today and tomorrow.

 

What AB and CL are looking to implement are systems and procedures that will last for generations,

 

I think the idea is worth supporting because let's be honest....we've hardly been regularly challenging for all honours since the 1950's.

 

 

 

 

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[Hearts Heritage]

Hearts in Scottish Cup SFs, Finals and Wins

1870s SF=0 Fin=0 Wins=0
1880s SF=0 Fin=0 Wins=0
1890s SF=3 Fin=2 Wins=2
1900s SF=5 Fin=4 Wins=2
1910s SF=2 Fin=0 Wins=0 Curtailed by WWI
1920s SF=1 Fin=0 Wins=0
1930s SF=3 Fin=0 Wins=0 The 1930s team is arguably the greatest Hearts side that never won a trophy only made it to 3 SFs
1940s SF=0 Fin=0 Wins=0 Curtailed by WWII
1950s SF=3 Fin=1 Wins=1
1960s SF=1 Fin=1 Wins=0
1970s SF=3 Fin=1 Wins=0
1980s SF=3 Fin=1 Wins=0
1990s SF=5 Fin=2 Wins=1
2000s SF=2 Fin=1 Wins=1
2010s SF=1 Fin=1 Wins=1

[Victorian]

Nobody, anywhere has said or alleged that. Only that she wasn't taking a financial risk and will stand to be financially better off from it in all likelihood.

 

Nobody has said that is wrong or unfair simply that she can't be made out to be some money gifter. She isn't, she lent it and I'm bloody grateful that she did as she didn't have to.

 

I love Nationwide as they lent me money for my house but I don't view them as saints that bought it for me.

 

Edit: also, 'bad taste' in who's opinion? Yours? You have a very high opinion of yourself and from your post you don't even appear to offer an opinion just a self policing of other people. Maybe some including myself do need to think again...some others such as yourself I imagine actually need to think for the first time rather than being spoon fed whatever you want to believe. When it comes to a forum discussing Hearts nobody should be told to **** off and think again just because they have a different opinion to somebody else.

Those are the insinuations and implications being offered by this whole examination of the financial comings and goings of her involvement in the club. A lot of facts and figures are being put forward and they are facts. But not enough emphasis is being given to what cannot be written in the form of figures. The time, effort and expertise she has gifted to the club and therefore the fans.

 

Raw data is being poured over and the resultant implication is perfectly clear. That Ann Budge is making financial gain from her involvement with Hearts and in some perverse insinuation, to the detriment of Hearts. 'Proving' some kind of sterile financial case for the prosecution isn't telling the real story. The real story involves a woman of advanced years who has given up her valuable time to serve as club chairwoman and lay down the foundafions for future good.

 

She can be paid sums of money but who's going to give her time and labour back to her?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I appreciate that I've been moaning like **** for ages now but this does seem like some over the top attack on Budge. If she goes with the reputation of saving the club and building a main stand then that will do for me. I blame others for the shortcomings on the football side.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

What risk was Ann taking? Her loan was secured with the assets of the club. The risk that the value of the club's assets would fall below ?2.4m (especially with Ann retaining full control of the club until her loan is repaid) was never "high".

 

And of course the addition of a ?12m (or whatever) new stand, helped by a gift of ?6m from FoH (us) reduces that risk to an infinitesimal level.

 

And the 17.4% share she will retain would (if she had paid the same price per share as FoH will have done for its 75.1%) have cost her not ?19,000 but over ?2m.

 

Hogwash. If for some reason the club spiraled down the pyramid and fans abandoned the club, the saleable assets of the club could have easily dropped below ?1m.  Further, if operating debts accumulated and then the club entered admin, in all likelihood she would have gotten pennies on the pound.

 

And I am specifically speaking of her investment before the stand development was announced. That was a later development and a different risk calculation, and something we owe her an entirely different debt of gratitude for.

[socrates82]

Not really. We got to semis/finals regularly.

 

 

My first final was 1986. The next was 10 years later. We got to a couple of semis bit I barely remember them, other than they were massively disappointing - fun getting there at the time but they feel worse than no cup run with hindsight.

 

Point is, this lack of cup success did nothing to make me not want to follow Hearts. In fact, the opposite. And it did not drive fans away in droves as you seem to think will happen after a period of 12 years with 3 finals and two wins - unimaginable success for those of us who started following the club in the 70s or 80s.

 

Football doesn't work the way some seem to think it should work - cups every few years, a change in fortune is as simple as sacking the manager/DoF/board. Doesn't work that way and never will.

[Taffin]

Those are the insinuations and implications being offered by this whole examination of the financial comings and goings of her involvement in the club. A lot of facts and figures are being put forward and they are facts. But not enough emphasis is being given to what cannot be written in the form of figures. The time, effort and expertise she has gifted to the club and therefore the fans.

 

Raw data is being poured over and the resultant implication is perfectly clear. That Ann Budge is making financial gain from her involvement with Hearts and in some perverse insinuation, to the detriment of Hearts. 'Proving' some kind of sterile financial case for the prosecution isn't telling the real story. The real story involves a woman of advanced years who has given up her valuable time to serve as club chairwoman and lay down the foundafions for future good.

 

She can be paid sums of money but who's going to give her time and labour back to her?

Which as I said nobody has criticised her for as far as I can ascertain.

 

If the data paints a picture you feel uncomfortable recognising then that's unfortunate but it's just that, data.

[Francis Albert]

Hogwash. If for some reason the club spiraled down the pyramid and fans abandoned the club, the saleable assets of the club could have easily dropped below ?1m.  Further, if operating debts accumulated and then the club entered admin, in all likelihood she would have gotten pennies on the pound.

 

And I am specifically speaking of her investment before the stand development was announced. That was a later development and a different risk calculation, and something we owe her an entirely different debt of gratitude for.

Do you think Ann saw a real risk of the club financially spiralling downward and possibly going into administration under her stewardship, having taken it over debt-free?

[socrates82]

Do you think Ann saw a real risk of the club financially spiralling downward and possibly going into administration under her stewardship, having taken it over debt-free?

 

Budge and Levein have been taking steps to ensure we never again go into admin by setting fairly strict budgets and conservative targets for the playing side. And they are getting panned for it. Some people just want a return to the Vlad years it seems with out of control spending on the team.

 

Fact is we still have a budget way behind Aberdeen's for a reason. If we go down again it will be because whoever owns the club gives in to pressure from a section of our support who are completely detached from reality.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Do you think Ann saw a real risk of the club financially spiralling downward and possibly going into administration under her stewardship, having taken it over debt-free?

 

If she didn't she has no financial sense. With us fresh out of admin and in a division with Hibs and Rangers and a stadium with a high annual maintenance bill, we were a debt magnet at the time.

 

Tom Farmer certainly hasn't seen a return on the money he's plowed into Hibs -- that's because he's shite at being a managing owner of course -- but football is not a sport you get into ownership in order to make money.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

To put it differently, imagine this scenario.

 

Ann takes over and hires Levein, and Levein's first hire is to bring in Cathro.  He Cathros all over the Championship and we end up finishing 7th.  (Sow's balky knee doesn't hold up, Paterson gets the wrong end of a Kenny Miller career-ender, and Walker mopes off.)  Meanwhile the council decides to rebuild the nursery and won't listen to our pleas that we need to redevelop the stand but need a few more years.  Any feeling of saving the club tapers off -- direct deposits drop by 40% and attendance drops below 10k.

 

That is a scenario that had a very real possibility of happening, and if it did she would have been sitting on a piece of land with no street frontage with all kinds of COMAH hazard restrictions and ?1m in debt and climbing.

[BobbyJenkins]

I will quote this again.........excellent post.

Spot on.

 

 

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[BobbyJenkins]

To put it differently, imagine this scenario.

 

Ann takes over and hires Levein, and Levein's first hire is to bring in Cathro. He Cathros all over the Championship and we end up finishing 7th. (Sow's balky knee doesn't hold up, Paterson gets the wrong end of a Kenny Miller career-ender, and Walker mopes off.) Meanwhile the council decides to rebuild the nursery and won't listen to our pleas that we need to redevelop the stand but need a few more years. Any feeling of saving the club tapers off -- direct deposits drop by 40% and attendance drops below 10k.

 

That is a scenario that had a very real possibility of happening, and if it did she would have been sitting on a piece of land with no street frontage with all kinds of COMAH hazard restrictions and ?1m in debt and climbing.

What? I could have won the lottery that time. A very real possibility.

 

 

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[Victorian]

Which as I said nobody has criticised her for as far as I can ascertain.

 

If the data paints a picture you feel uncomfortable recognising then that's unfortunate but it's just that, data.

See that's the thing with insinuations. They can exist without saying something directly. Thankfully it appears the majority is not signed up to whatever agenda(s) are at the root of this little examination.

[GTJT]

Which as I said nobody has criticised her for as far as I can ascertain.

 

If the data paints a picture you feel uncomfortable recognising then that's unfortunate but it's just that, data.

I think the issue is due to the fact that the data isn't complete and is shown in a rather unorthodox fashion (monies due to third-parties shown as due to Ann Budge for example). The fact that the poster has previously demonstrated their extensive knowledge in this area but hasn't shown a 'true and fair view' of Ann's investment and return points towards the poster trying to push his agenda to others.

[Bad Religion]

Last few pages have been Greenginger & Sergey porn.

 

They'll have loved this. Food for thought.

Certainly is.

[Big Slim Stylee]

Last few pages have been Greenginger & Sergey porn.

 

They'll have loved this. Food for thought.

 

A veritable FF/FA lovefest.

[Beni]

I love Nationwide as they lent me money for my house but I don't view them as saints that bought it for me.

The difference is any number of other financial institutions would have been delighted to lend you the money.

 

However without Ann Budge's involvement the club would have been liquidated.

 

Gone to meet its maker.

 

Shuffled off this mortal coil.

 

Ceased to be.

 

I feel genuinely sorry for those still carping from the sidelines years later like Japanese soldiers refusing to believe WW2 is over.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

A veritable FF/FA lovefest.

Thing is though, in general FF and FA raise some good points about FOH etc (I don't mean on this thread specifically but on the board generally).

[Rods]

The difference is any number of other financial institutions would have been delighted to lend you the money.

However without Ann Budge's involvement the club would have been liquidated.

Gone to meet its maker.

Shuffled off this mortal coil.

Ceased to be.

I feel genuinely sorry for those still carping from the sidelines years later like Japanese soldiers refusing to believe WW2 is over.

Correct

 

When will people actually get these facts.

 

I would see people's points if there was ten other credible people in the running to buy the club and save us but there was not. Let's get this straight we should be grateful to Anne Budge not just for us but for our children and future generations.

[GTJT]

Thing is though, in general FF and FA raise some good points about FOH etc (I don't mean on this thread specifically but on the board generally).

I absolutely agree.

[CJGJ]

Thing is though, in general FF and FA raise some good points about FOH etc (I don't mean on this thread specifically but on the board generally).

Maybe now they can have a small insight into how Ann would feel reading this thread.

[Bull's-eye]

Thing is though, in general FF and FA raise some good points about FOH etc (I don't mean on this thread specifically but on the board generally).

You call it good points, I call it Grenades.