Ann Budge update

[Footballfirst]

You've made a post that's hugely misleading about the reality of the money that she's paid out and has/will receive back over the course of the deal between her and FoH.

 

OK........ do you really want a number that could be deemed misleading?

 

Ann told us that that waiving the interest on her loan for the two year period of stand funding would represent her ?300,000 contribution to the new stand fund.......... Good.

 

According to the accounts, the club has been charged ?172,000 interest per annum on the ?2.4m loan.  That is ?344,000 over two years.  On the face of it, that looks like a conservative estimate on Ann's part.  ?300,000 represents approx 21 months interest, so she is actually waiving more than the ?300,000 she suggested....... Great.

 

But, if FOH wasn't funding the stand then it would currently be repaying Ann's loan, lets say at ?120,000 a month.  Repayment of the ?2.4m loan at that rate would take 20 months. The time periods of Ann's 21 months waived interest and FOH's 20 months repayments are maybe close enough to explain Ann's ?300,000 figure..........Good.

 

Well not really. If FOH was repaying the loan at the moment, then the outstanding balance would be reducing month by month, but so would the interest,  At the 6% (7% APR) rate from the agreement, the interest payable over the 20 months would be around ?140,000, not ?300,000.  

 

However, the reality of the current situation is that Ann has delayed repayment of the loan be two years and has agreed to waive interest for that period. Ann estimates that to be worth ?300,000, I would suggest it's ?344,000, but the alternative would only have cost the club ?140,000 in interest.

 

Is it worth arguing over ..... probably not.

 

Footnote - Had we not embarked on building the stand and just stuck by the original agreement, then FOH would be taking majority ownership of the club in October or November.

[Francis Albert]

Sorry the quote function doesn't seem to work on Graygo's post about ?6m not being umpteen million. In my world it is.

[Taffin]

Depends on what you mean. By 'bad' - she could have got 6 or 7% for her money I would have thought through investment, with no hassle at all and no risk (also no personal exposure on social media/ public interest - I wouldn't underestimate the value of the quiet enjoyment of life)

 

Instead she's had a whole lot of hassle and stress, as well as having to put in what I suspect are long hours at her age.

 

 

Personally I retired a couple of years early rather than face the increasing stress at work and some issues at home. I'm amazed at the energy and quality of her contribution and yes , I think we are VERY lucky to have had her around as I doubt we'd have had much of a club left had she not stuck her head above the parapet. I can accept the financial side and ignore a few mistakes (amongst the far greater number of successes) compare s to the joy of watchingHearts back in their proper pace in Scottish football, admired as a club with a sense of community and values, and building a great new stand.

Where is it you are getting 6-7% with no risk?

 

Genuine question, I'd like some of that action.

[The Future's Maroon]

Well, this thread has certainly been enlightenin.

[Francis Albert]

That's true Francis

 

My earlier point was that at the time of her investment there was no guarantee we would improve the football side to support a larger stadium. It was a big financial risk for her (in terms of her shareholding and chances that FOH would continue to fund paying her back)

 

So her initial investment, in my opinion was speculative and risky, and not a safe way to get a good return

Fair enough.I am not convinced the original investment was high risk given the terms of the FoH/Bidco agreement and the fans/FoH commitment. But I accept that's easy for me to say - it wasn't my money.

[Francis Albert]

Ann got it wrong?

 

Interesting.......

 

Do you think that she got her pencil, paper and calculator out one day and costed a new stand?

 

 

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As the Chairman and Chief executive the buck stops with her, as she admits. The reason for the over-run was claimed to be Ann changing the number of toilets and the number or size of the catering kiosks. I am assuming she saw the plans before the budget was finalised, A few on here commented at the time the plans were published that the facilities looked a bit inadequate for the stand's capacity.

 

Whether that is feasibly the sole reason for the over-run (Ann did not say it was) we don't know because we don't know the scale of the over-run.

[cylawny]

Where is it you are getting 6-7% with no risk?

 

Genuine question, I'd like some of that action.

 

Fundsmith has paid close to 20% per annum since inception however that comes with great risk.

 

I would also like to know the risk free route to wealth.

[scott herbertson]

Where is it you are getting 6-7% with no risk?

Genuine question, I'd like some of that action.

No risk isn't right, but my investment is not high risk. Average risk would be more accurate

 

Happy to Pm you the details if you like

 

The same people before I retired suggested a shares ISA to me which I followed and it made around the sane level of return

 

With the sums Ann has invested you would be expecting an even higher return I'd guess

[scott herbertson]

Fundsmith has paid close to 20% per annum since inception however that comes with great risk.

 

I would also like to know the risk free route to wealth.

Ha! I must remember not to dash off kickback posts in the pub!

 

 

There is of course no investment which would give that level of return with no risk , but it's probably about average for those who invest in trusts/ shares rather than put in bank/ bonds which are less risky

[scott herbertson]

Fair enough.I am not convinced the original investment was high risk given the terms of the FoH/Bidco agreement and the fans/FoH commitment. But I accept that's easy for me to say - it wasn't my money.

I agree she had some protection in there, but at the time it was probably far riskie than it would seem now

[Taffin]

No risk isn't right, but my investment is not high risk. Average risk would be more accurate

 

Happy to Pm you the details if you like

 

The same people before I retired suggested a shares ISA to me which I followed and it made around the sane level of return

 

With the sums Ann has invested you would be expecting an even higher return I'd guess

Thanks for that offer Scott, I appreciate it and I'll drop you a PM.

 

Sadly, I won't be investing anything lime the sums Ann would have been!!

[Bad Religion]

As the Chairman and Chief executive the buck stops with her, as she admits. The reason for the over-run was claimed to be Ann changing the number of toilets and the number or size of the catering kiosks. I am assuming she saw the plans before the budget was finalised, A few on here commented at the time the plans were published that the facilities looked a bit inadequate for the stand's capacity.

 

Whether that is feasibly the sole reason for the over-run (Ann did not say it was) we don't know because we don't know the scale of the over-run.

Francis! This is appalling even by your own low standards.

 

You were quick to stick up for FF when he was accused of providing misleading information but this takes the biscuit.

 

As explained to you on numerous occasions, nowhere has it been confirmed there is any kind of budget overrun. This only exists in your vivid imagination. The reasons for the increase in cost were clearly explained in the interview you mention but you know that.

 

Now, if I remember correctly and I'm happy to go back through the thread, it was you who was moaning about the lack of facilities. However, as you are aware and even with your keen interest in architecture you hadn't looked at the plans properly. Nobody was complaining about inadequate facilities except you.

[Paolo]

Francis! This is appalling even by your own low standards.

 

You were quick to stick up for FF when he was accused of providing misleading information but this takes the biscuit.

 

As explained to you on numerous occasions, nowhere has it been confirmed there is any kind of budget overrun. This only exists in your vivid imagination. The reasons for the increase in cost were clearly explained in the interview you mention but you know that.

 

Now, if I remember correctly and I'm happy to go back through the thread, it was you who was moaning about the lack of facilities. However, as you are aware and even with your keen interest in architecture you hadn't looked at the plans properly. Nobody was complaining about inadequate facilities except you.

We are over what we budgeted for. And that was before the chair fiasco.

 

It might not be a concern to the Board, but it is over budget, no matter how much you pretend it isn't.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Not in the league cup we didn't. And in the Scottish cup how often did we draw Celtic as early as we have been recently?

 

The fact is we've been spoiled the last few years with two cup wins in relatively close succession, plus a LC final. The stats for our cup wins and final appearances are there for you to go through. Fact is we've won or appeared in a final every 6 years or so over our entire history. Of course in reality it doesn't work like that! We had good sides under JJ and Doddie and did well. Other times not so much.

And the crowds then were not week on week what they are now.

We're in a unique situation at the moment in that crowds held up through the relegation season and have continued to do so.

That won't last forever if all we have is mediocrity or worse.

 

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[MacDonald Jardine]

Not in the league cup we didn't. And in the Scottish cup how often did we draw Celtic as early as we have been recently?

 

The fact is we've been spoiled the last few years with two cup wins in relatively close succession, plus a LC final. The stats for our cup wins and final appearances are there for you to go through. Fact is we've won or appeared in a final every 6 years or so over our entire history. Of course in reality it doesn't work like that! We had good sides under JJ and Doddie and did well. Other times not so much.

Or Hibs even.

 

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[Bad Religion]

We are over what we budgeted for. And that was before the sear fiasco.

 

It might not be a concern to the Board, but it is over budget, no matter how much you pretend it isn't.

The implication from FA is that we are spending more than we have and it is unaccounted for. This isn't the case as confirmed by Ann. The cost of the build has increased as has the scale of the build. There is a difference.

[MacDonald Jardine]

The heady optimism in large part disappeared because we inexplicably and unnecessarily dumped a thrilling home-grown league winning team for one full of plodding mercenary keech. [emoji38]

Aye but we've never been better run.

 

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[MacDonald Jardine]

Home grown? That side was a good mix of Hearts youngsters and players brought in. Alexander, Eckersley, Sow, Ozturk, Wilson, Gomis, Pallardo, Bauben, Keatings, Zeefuik... that "plodding mercenary keech" then took 3rd in their first season back, scoring lots of goals in the process and with a good defensive record, and had much better starts to the season than Rangers and Hibs when they got promoted.

 

Where are the players we dumped from that team by the way - Keatings, Wilson, Holt, McHattie, Eckersley... none of them are doing well and holding down places in Premiership teams.

 

The more I read this forum the more I'm convinced the Budge/Neilson/Levein knockers live in a fantasy world in which Hearts regularly challenge for titles, cups and the rest and never, ever finish 4th or 5th or have the odd meh season in 3.

 

You have to expect to get criticism - or at least be questioned about your stance - for throwing toys out of your pram after a bad 8 months from people who have experienced much worse times and can bring some perspective to a debate like this.

I've experienced the worst times in the club's history.

It doesn't make Neilson's style and record in cups or the last half of last season any more acceptable.

 

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[Paolo]

The implication from FA is that we are spending more than we have and it is unaccounted for. This isn't the case as confirmed by Ann. The cost of the build has increased as has the scale of the build. There is a difference.

Sk we are over budget. As I said, the Board may not be concerned, or may even think it is worth it, and get a good team on the lark and they may be proven correct, but we are over budget.

[Bad Religion]

Sk we are over budget. As I said, the Board may not be concerned, or may even think it is worth it, and get a good team on the lark and they may be proven correct, but we are over budget.

I get what your saying. What I'm trying to say is that although I agree the budget has now increased it isn't an 'overrun'.

 

To be clear, what gets my back up about FA is that he implies we are now paying ?14 - 15m for the proposed ?12m redevelopment. This isn't the case.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Abuse, if she is really getting any, isn't really called for, but she isn't exempt from criticism, and she has made some dreadful decisions in her tenure.

Apparently you can't say this though or you have some kind of agenda.

 

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[MacDonald Jardine]

I am sure I saw Ann herself on the TV explaining the increase in costs as being down to her adding various design changes that she deemed will bring value in the long term. Why on earth anyone outside the club with no complete knowledge of the clubs accounting or finances would even try to state a case, negative or positive in here is beyond my comprehension. As for the standards set by FF ... I am guessing he isn't a qualified accountant for good reason!

Oh FFS.

The changes may or may not add value. The fact is they weren't apparently deemed necessary initially and certainly weren't budgeted for.

This takes blind worship to a new level.

 

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[hueyview]

Zero. She is gifting her skill, time and energy. Has anyone ever disputed that?

I genuinely feel most of the contributors, who are asking questions respect Ann Budge for what she has done....but they, can think of 8 at least multi posters 10,000 plus. Just seek governance, when the problems have arose.

 

One lad mentioned Fergus at the Celtic....he was demonized as not backing the 3 amigos, and blamed for being a tightwad....

 

He put roughly ?10 million into Celtic, and left with shares near ?40 million... A club that previously paid wages out of biscuit tins...

 

They were going to build a Fergus gump statue.... Good souls like McCann, budge and farmer are few between...

[soonbe110]

OK........ do you really want a number that could be deemed misleading?

 

Ann told us that that waiving the interest on her loan for the two year period of stand funding would represent her ?300,000 contribution to the new stand fund.......... Good.

 

According to the accounts, the club has been charged ?172,000 interest per annum on the ?2.4m loan.  That is ?344,000 over two years.  On the face of it, that looks like a conservative estimate on Ann's part.  ?300,000 represents approx 21 months interest, so she is actually waiving more than the ?300,000 she suggested....... Great.

 

But, if FOH wasn't funding the stand then it would currently be repaying Ann's loan, lets say at ?120,000 a month.  Repayment of the ?2.4m loan at that rate would take 20 months. The time periods of Ann's 21 months waived interest and FOH's 20 months repayments are maybe close enough to explain Ann's ?300,000 figure..........Good.

 

Well not really. If FOH was repaying the loan at the moment, then the outstanding balance would be reducing month by month, but so would the interest,  At the 6% (7% APR) rate from the agreement, the interest payable over the 20 months would be around ?140,000, not ?300,000.  

 

However, the reality of the current situation is that Ann has delayed repayment of the loan be two years and has agreed to waive interest for that period. Ann estimates that to be worth ?300,000, I would suggest it's ?344,000, but the alternative would only have cost the club ?140,000 in interest.

 

Is it worth arguing over ..... probably not.

 

Footnote - Had we not embarked on building the stand and just stuck by the original agreement, then FOH would be taking majority ownership of the club in October or November.

Then the real meltdown on here would commence!!! Thank goodness she found a good reason for delaying the handover.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Aye but she's more than making up for that with the legacy shares she stole managed to get for next to nothing, amarite?

No you're not. And absolutely nobody has said that.

 

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[soonbe110]

Where is it you are getting 6-7% with no risk?

Genuine question, I'd like some of that action.

Ask any decent IFA. Balanced/spread Investment over the last three to four years at a cautious risk level has generated in excess of 6-7%. Not risk free but certainly low risk with an easy and straightforward exit route if risk gets scary.

[soonbe110]

I've experienced the worst times in the club's history.

It doesn't make Neilson's style and record in cups or the last half of last season any more acceptable.

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Robbie is one of few living Hearts men who has a Cup winners medal. Nothing wrong with his cup record.

[Jamos]

Oh FFS.

The changes may or may not add value. The fact is they weren't apparently deemed necessary initially and certainly weren't budgeted for.

This takes blind worship to a new level.

 

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It's not blind worship at all, have you ever began a project in your working life and once things got under way, things have to change? Costs time and money doesn't it? Both material and legal and everything else in between.  This project is on a much larger scale which in turn leads to much larger costs, ... I am happy to let the club get on with what they are doing, they communicate when things are clearly going off track. As for  whinging and typing random figures (mostly incorrect) time after time after time in here, it changes nothing within the club and never will ... We all pay in (mostly) at some level or not, to support the club. Some believe that gives them a say in every minute detail rightly or wrongly. The harsh truth is, it get's them in to watch the match, that is about it.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Robbie is one of few living Hearts men who has a Cup winners medal. Nothing wrong with his cup record.

As a manager it's utterly abysmal.

 

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[Independence]

Where did I suggest that? The 17.4% which she will acquire at one hundredth of the cost per share that FoH will incur is perhaps some small compensation, along with our undying gratitude, for her labour.

This!

[MacDonald Jardine]

It's not blind worship at all, have you ever began a project in your working life and once things got under way, things have to change? Costs time and money doesn't it? Both material and legal and everything else in between. This project is on a much larger scale which in turn leads to much larger costs, ... I am happy to let the club get on with what they are doing, they communicate when things are clearly going off track. As for whinging and typing random figures (mostly incorrect) time after time after time in here, it changes nothing within the club and never will ... We all pay in (mostly) at some level or not, to support the club. Some believe that gives them a say in every minute detail rightly or wrongly. The harsh truth is, it get's them in to watch the match, that is about it.

Yes of course I accept projects go over the initial estimation.

I apologise if I read your post wrongly but you seemed to be suggesting the overspend was actually a bonus because it was adding value.

That really seemed to be spinning things to a ridiculous degree.

 

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[Paolo]

Robbie is one of few living Hearts men who has a Cup winners medal. Nothing wrong with his cup record.

As a player, perhaps not. As a manger or head coach, there is nothing right with it.

[Jamos]

Yes of course I accept projects go over the initial estimation.

I apologise if I read your post wrongly but you seemed to be suggesting the overspend was actually a bonus because it was adding value.

That really seemed to be spinning things to a ridiculous degree.

 

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No, the bonus I have in mind is once everything is up and running and the extra revenue is then being spent on the playing side instead of this project. The overspend I believe is clearly affecting the playing budget right now, then there was Cathro's pay off too. She has obviously made decisions believing that it will bring dividends in the long term, and that the costs in the short term are worth it. She is a successful business women, I say let her and her team get on with it. One things for sure, the additional income this stand will generate year upon year will bring a team we will enjoy watching in time, I understand this, and look forward to it.

[stevenson1]

Where did I suggest that? The 17.4% which she will acquire at one hundredth of the cost per share that FoH will incur is perhaps some small compensation, along with our undying gratitude, for her labour.

undying gratitude

Give it a break. 

If you want to use percentages for who gets what, without Ann we would have 0% of a football club. 

[MacDonald Jardine]

No, the bonus I have in mind is once everything is up and running and the extra revenue is then being spent on the playing side instead of this project. The overspend I believe is clearly affecting the playing budget right now, then there was Cathro's pay off too. She has obviously made decisions believing that it will bring dividends in the long term, and that the costs in the short term are worth it. She is a successful business women, I say let her and her team get on with it. One things for sure, the additional income this stand will generate year upon year will bring a team we will enjoy watching in time, I understand this, and look forward to it.

I look forward to it too.

I just think there's nothing wrong with these projects being subject to some kind of scrutiny.

Not to hang anyone out to dry but to acknowledge something has gone wrong or a mistake was made.

 

I've been pulled up before for suggesting many will countenance no criticism of Ann Budge in any circumstances.

This thread puts that to bed.

 

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[Jamos]

I can give you the figures for a single lounge ... the Skyline for instance 

 

160 members

1st Year  - ?640,000

2nd Year - ?448,000

3rd Year - ?448,000

 

That is for a single lounge within the new main stand. These are the figures we should be quoting and getting excited about ... not the negative nonsense spouted throughout this thread. This one lounge per year would cover the wages of two ?5000 a week players! Now that is exciting ... How many lounges do we have once complete?

[Beast Boy]

More trumpets than the Salvation Army.

[Paolo]

I can give you the figures for a single lounge ... the Skyline for instance

 

160 members

1st Year - ?640,000

2nd Year - ?448,000

3rd Year - ?448,000

 

That is for a single lounge within the new main stand. These are the figures we should be quoting and getting excited about ... not the negative nonsense spouted throughout this thread. This one lounge per year would cover the wages of two ?5000 a week players! Now that is exciting ... How many lounges do we have once complete?

I have no idea what you are talking about, but there is not a single package that even comes close to a tenth of those figures. It unless you count 10 x executive boxes at ?20,000 a pop.

[Beast Boy]

I look forward to it too.

I just think there's nothing wrong with these projects being subject to some kind of scrutiny.

Not to hang anyone out to dry but to acknowledge something has gone wrong or a mistake was made.

 

I've been pulled up before for suggesting many will countenance no criticism of Ann Budge in any circumstances.

This thread puts that to bed.

 

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Shite. What you are actually being part of, is this horrendous modern trend of desperately looking for a negative slant, and if it doesn't exist, exaggerating a shite one.

[Jamos]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but there is not a single package that even comes close to a tenth of those figures.

 

You need a new brochure then Paolo

 

Skyline Lounge Membership ?1200 for 3 years

Annual Membership - ?2800

 

1st Year 160 members * ?4000 = ?640,000

2nd Year 160 members * ?2800 = ?448,000

 

Better now

 

You didn't actually believe there was only a single person per lounge did you ...... 

[MacDonald Jardine]

Shite. What you are actually being part of, is this horrendous modern trend of desperately looking for a negative slant, and if it doesn't exist, exaggerating a shite one.

Bollocks.

There's nothing wrong with justified criticism.

Unthinking acceptance is far more dangerous.

 

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[Bull's-eye]

Bollocks.

There's nothing wrong with justified criticism.

Unthinking acceptance is far more dangerous.

 

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There is if it pisses everybody off and creates friction.

 

Your doing a good job, crack on.

[Paolo]

You need a new brochure then Paolo

 

Skyline Lounge Membership ?1200 for 3 years

Annual Membership - ?2800

 

1st Year 160 members * ?4000 = ?640,000

2nd Year 160 members * ?2800 = ?448,000

 

Better now

Clearly I do.

 

The more important figure though, is how many we sell.

 

I reckon very little. I hope I am wrong.

[Des Lynam]

Bollocks.

There's nothing wrong with justified criticism.

Unthinking acceptance is far more dangerous.

 

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Very true. How do you feel about praise? Loyalty?

 

FF is just copy and pasting the info from the accounts to rally the stupids onside to criticise Ann. I just can't see why thats justified. We're a bit of a shambles on the pitch at the moment but thats hardly anything new. We're building a fantastic new main stand. We will appoint a new manager/head coach after bravely trying to implement a continental style of playing under Cathro. 

 

We are beating strong and the future is looking really positive so its just frustrating when people are having a go about nothing. 

[AndyMcI]

ann got the stand budget wrong by a bigger margin and presumably took more than a few minutes to correct it.

 

 

i think we are running about 2 to 3m overbudget.

 

 

As the Chairman and Chief executive the buck stops with her, as she admits. The reason for the over-run was claimed to be Ann changing the number of toilets and the number or size of the catering kiosks. I am assuming she saw the plans before the budget was finalised, A few on here commented at the time the plans were published that the facilities looked a bit inadequate for the stand's capacity.

 

Whether that is feasibly the sole reason for the over-run (Ann did not say it was) we don't know because we don't know the scale of the over-run.

 

I find your posts conflicted.

 

You attribute the over run directly to Ann and surmise it may be ?2-?3 million. A considerable sum, directed at her specifically.

 

You then justify this to Ann making changes to toilets and kiosks.......

 

.........but that might not be the only reason as you don't really know what the number is.

 

So you choose to state an eye catching large sum but can only justify it directly to her based on minor design changes.

 

I don't believe either you or I are na?ve enough believe both of your points can be correct.

 

There is either a lot more issues than those minor design changes, that were in her direct control, or your figure is incorrect.

 

 

As figurehead of the business it has indeed been acknowledged that the "buck stops with her" which I believe should be taken in the context of dealing with the issue that has arisen. This is standard practice.

 

However, you have specifically stated she personally got the budget for the stand wrong. "ann got the stand budget wrong". Again, without going into detail neither you or I are na?ve enough to believe she personally designed and costed the stand or indeed would be likely to know all the costs of the component parts to ascertain whether the budget was correct or otherwise.

 

You are choosing to play on semantics of those words whereas we both know that it is not literal.

[MacDonald Jardine]

 

Bollocks.

There's nothing wrong with justified criticism.

Unthinking acceptance is far more dangerous.

 

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Very true. How do you feel about praise? Loyalty?

 

FF is just copy and pasting the info from the accounts to rally the stupids onside to criticise Ann. I just can't see why thats justified. We're a bit of a shambles on the pitch at the moment but thats hardly anything new. We're building a fantastic new main stand. We will appoint a new manager/head coach after bravely trying to implement a continental style of playing under Cathro.

 

We are beating strong and the future is looking really positive so its just frustrating when people are having a go about nothing.

I think praise should be given where it's due and there's a lot to thank Ann Budge for.

Loyalty is a bit different. My loyalty is to the club.

I do question some of FF"s posts and their motives. They do suggest an agenda.

 

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[Buffalo Bill]

 

Footnote - Had we not embarked on building the stand and just stuck by the original agreement, then FOH would be taking majority ownership of the club in October or November.

 

 

Indeed. And we'd back to this:

 

 

[MacDonald Jardine]

There is if it pisses everybody off and creates friction.

 

Your doing a good job, crack on.

If I'm the only one with that view it's hardly causing friction.

And anyway is friction not a natural outcome from debate?

If we all have to agree on everything there's no point in this forum.

 

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[Beast Boy]

Indeed. And we'd back to this:

 

 

Exactly. How the **** could anyone honestly think that would be a good place to be?

[Jamos]

Exactly. How the **** could anyone honestly think that would be a good place to be?

 

the pies were really really good in the Bauld suite though