Indy Ref Part Deux

[AlphonseCapone]

Reaths17's wee breakdown was the most interesting part of the last 2 pages imo.

[luckydug]

No, she wouldn't. She's looking after Scotland's best interests.

 

Biggest joke of the day.

All that bluster about representing the interests of the whole of the UK.

Biggest load of BS since Maggie Thatcher told us where there is discord she will bring harmony.

We all know how that worked out.

[Space Mackerel]

Plenty of it were in evidence outside Holyrood the other night.

 

They were outnumbered by dog-walkers.

56% now for Westminster elections.

 

How do you like them apples pal?

[JamboX2]

Factual information, it's you that's turning this into playground politics well not just you! Both sides are preaching to the converted. The way for a settled once & for all settlement is to fully federalise the country stops the blame game in its tracks the yoons still have their yoon. I know this as do you & TM does as well. It suits Tory England for Scotland to vote SNP gives them a clear run at power. Remember this the next time you hear roof Saying country / families divided.

Don't see your point here... Jeremy Corbyn gives the Tories a clear run as well. The SNP are a sidecar to the rest of motorbike of an opposition at Westminster. A green lamp with no light. A set of thin and worn liberal tires. A labour diesel engine sputtering on petrol and a driver facing the wrong way driving off a cliff...

 

...federalism is the solution. But we might just be passed that point. If there is to be substantial devolution I think independence will be averted and the SNP hobbled. Ball is in the UK Cabinet's half at the moment.

[JamboX2]

I think we are all getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Give it a year and see what's happening then regards brexit and how it is shaping up and then see.

 

At the moment there is a lot of posturing and bravado, from all sides. Once the reality dawns, minds may change, again, from all sides.

 

It's why the No parties hysterical rantings and ramblings on the vote at Holyrood may have set them back before they got started.

 

Then again Sturgeon boxed herself in and is trapped too.

 

Where's the fabled and long promised Education Bill? Sidelined? Ah well... at least we can discuss process for 2 years.

[Seymour M Hersh]

We? No a Scotsman founded the Bank of England. Because a Scotsman founded it doesn't make it Scotland's. What is this, rules of the play ground?

 

Do we get Canada too?

 

It's seps you're dealing with so of course playground rules apply. 

[Nookie Bear]

I think we are all getting a bit ahead of ourselves. Give it a year and see what's happening then regards brexit and how it is shaping up and then see.

 

At the moment there is a lot of posturing and bravado, from all sides. Once the reality dawns, minds may change, again, from all sides.

Give it, say, 10 years to assess the impact of Brexit?

 

Maybe then we can talk referendums.

 

The SNP are not going to let this go and we are committed to another 2/3 of this.

[Boris]

Give it, say, 10 years to assess the impact of Brexit?

 

Maybe then we can talk referendums.

 

The SNP are not going to let this go and we are committed to another 2/3 of this.

 

Don't you think that the impact could be estimated from the outcome of the brexit negotiations?

[conn artist]

.

[doctor jambo]

We? No a Scotsman founded the Bank of England. Because a Scotsman founded it doesn't make it Scotland's. What is this, rules of the play ground?

 

Do we get Canada too?

And the US Navy.....

[Nookie Bear]

Don't you think that the impact could be estimated from the outcome of the brexit negotiations?

Would that not be a knee jerk reaction though?

 

The impact of Brexit - negative and positive - may take years to become apparent.

To be honest the SNP will pay scant attention to this - Brexit was their wildcard and they will play it regardless.

[Nookie Bear]

And the US Navy.....

Brazilian football?

[Boris]

Would that not be a knee jerk reaction though?

 

The impact of Brexit - negative and positive - may take years to become apparent.

To be honest the SNP will pay scant attention to this - Brexit was their wildcard and they will play it regardless.

 

Maybe we should go for independence then, and after ten years or so, if it isn't working, rejoin the UK?

 

I suppose the point regards Brexit is, do we take the risk of seeing what happens when, based on the available data and knowledge, a reasonable risk assessment can be made thereby mitigating the risk?

[Pans Jambo]

According to some folks on here...

Seems if we stay shackled to the rUK we will be able to trade with everyone in the world but if we go Indy, then we wont be able to sell anything to anyone anymore and nobody will want anything from Scotland including: Oil, Gas, Water, Electricity, Whisky, Pharma Products, Printing, Pharma Research, Investment Banking, Computer Games, Dairy Products, Seafood, Beef, Lamb, Game, Fresh Produce, Insurance Services, Building Products, Textiles, Book Printing, Aerospace, Ships, Bakery produce, Ready Meals, Electronics, Call Centres, Plastics, Confectionery etc etc etc. Seems bleak!

(Plus NOBODY will EVER want to visit Scotland for a holiday again).

 

Better to stay lubed up and bent over the table folks. Cancel Indy ref 2.

[jambo lodge]

According to some folks on here...

Seems if we stay shackled to the rUK we will be able to trade with everyone in the world but if we go Indy, then we wont be able to sell anything to anyone anymore and nobody will want anything from Scotland including: Oil, Gas, Water, Electricity, Whisky, Pharma Products, Printing, Pharma Research, Investment Banking, Computer Games, Dairy Products, Seafood, Beef, Lamb, Game, Fresh Produce, Insurance Services, Building Products, Textiles, Book Printing, Aerospace, Ships, Bakery produce, Ready Meals, Electronics, Call Centres, Plastics, Confectionery etc etc etc. Seems bleak!

(Plus NOBODY will EVER want to visit Scotland for a holiday again).

 

Better to stay lubed up and bent over the table folks. Cancel Indy ref 2.

 

Serious question. So Scotland produces lots of goods for sale around the world with the two main markets being  rest of UK( 63%) and Europe. If there is no trade deal with the UK ( which will probably be the case in the first few years) then a tariff will apply. How then do you logistically trade with the EU,through English ports/roads and airports?. Fisheries and livestock currently use English ports .  

[doctor jambo]

Serious question. So Scotland produces lots of goods for sale around the world with the two main markets being  rest of UK( 63%) and Europe. If there is no trade deal with the UK ( which will probably be the case in the first few years) then a tariff will apply. How then do you logistically trade with the EU,through English ports/roads and airports?. Fisheries and livestock currently use English ports .  

Scotland does have ports you know..........

I don't like that argument

I am not a separatist but even  I hate that argument- perhaps our port towns would be revitalised and our airports too?

[Boris]

I saw this on Twitter, and felt it was worth an airing.  A bit of humour, if you like.

 

So, all this Krankie chat....have we actually picked the wrong politician?

 

[Pans Jambo]

I saw this on Twitter, and felt it was worth an airing.  A bit of humour, if you like.

 

So, all this Krankie chat....have we actually picked the wrong politician?

 

They will be   at that.

[frankblack]

They will be   at that.

 

Nope - I think its just you.

 

Its a pretty piss-poor attempt at a comeback from the Gnats - repeat back what someone calls you.  Who is smaller - Nippy or Davidson?

[Space Mackerel]

They will be   at that.

 

Utterly utterly 

[frankblack]

Utterly utterly 

[Boris]

I think Ruth Davidson is smaller and angrier.

 

It was piss poor the 1st time and is now equally piss poor.

 

Nails it!

 

I preferred the retort on twitter to Ruth Davidson when she drew similarities between the photo of Sturgeon on the couch and one of Thatcher on a couch.

 

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/847552540959002624

 

 

so someone posted

 

 

Which I found quite amusing.

[Pans Jambo]

Nope - I think its just you.

 

Its a pretty piss-poor attempt at a comeback from the Gnats - repeat back what someone calls you.  Who is smaller - Nippy or Davidson?

youre spewin

[frankblack]

youre spewin

 

Nope - but I can see taste the seethe coming from your posts.  Keep it up.

 

Next time try to be original instead of feeding back the insults and changing the name.

[Nookie Bear]

Nope - I think its just you.

 

Its a pretty piss-poor attempt at a comeback from the Gnats - repeat back what someone calls you. Who is smaller - Nippy or Davidson?

Chill, it's just a bit of banter.

[Nookie Bear]

Nails it!

 

I preferred the retort on twitter to Ruth Davidson when she drew similarities between the photo of Sturgeon on the couch and one of Thatcher on a couch.

 

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/847552540959002624

 

 

so someone posted

 

 

Which I found quite amusing.

Ha, thank you Ben Elton

[Stewie Griffin]

.

[Space Mackerel]

Nails it!

 

I preferred the retort on twitter to Ruth Davidson when she drew similarities between the photo of Sturgeon on the couch and one of Thatcher on a couch.

 

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/847552540959002624

 

 

so someone posted

 

 

Which I found quite amusing.

 

Moof getting a severe internet doing on that Twitter thread much like the Yoons on here.

 

[deesidejambo]

Moof getting a severe internet doing on that Twitter thread much like the Yoons on here.

 

Well the job of theNats is to persuade people to change their vote.

 

Not going to work as it's now more Tory hating than policy discussion.

 

Boris what's your view on the Curtice analysis?

[Guest]

In full: Nicola Sturgeon's letter to Theresa May - The Telegraph

https://apple.news/Amg0s2IKmThCkJYEBK7oDHg

 

Not sure if work as from news feed but letter from NS to TM.

[Space Mackerel]

Well the job of theNats is to persuade people to change their vote.

 

Not going to work as it's now more Tory hating than policy discussion.

 

Boris what's your view on the Curtice analysis?

 

Lets be honest, no ones going to change their mind on this thread. 

 

All the info is out there if you look past the BBC, Sky and the London based MSM print. 

[Boris]

Boris what's your view on the Curtice analysis?

 

Not entirely unsurprising, although does seem to be at odds with the actual Brexit result.

 

That said, if a message is repeated enough, people will believe it.  The bit I read didn't relate to an indy ref though, iirc. And, given 1/3 (we are told) SNP voters vote to leave the EU, it doesn't make me that surprised.

[Adam Murray]

In full: Nicola Sturgeon's letter to Theresa May - The Telegraph

https://apple.news/Amg0s2IKmThCkJYEBK7oDHg

 

Not sure if work as from news feed but letter from NS to TM.

 

Decent letter to be fair.

 

Wishing well on Brexit negotiations.

 

Looking for a good deal for the whole of the Uk

 

Although the timescale, which is within the timescale of the Brexit negotiations, doesn't seem to allow for any delay.

[doctor jambo]

Lets be honest, no ones going to change their mind on this thread. 

 

All the info is out there if you look past the BBC, Sky and the London based MSM print. 

That's not strictly speaking true though

I would change my vote to a "yes"  as long as there is a fiscal plan in place that will NOT see me taxed to hell, have my house devalued, savings depreciated  or pension stiffed even more than it already has.

Is New Scotland "big tax- big welfare"?

Is it "low tax big business"

Are we no nuclear power or more expensive leccy from turbines?

 

I would change my mind but I need a reason why, and I'm not facile enough to do it on the basis of "bad toffs" or some ideological crusade that will leave me literally paying a very high price for a rather less useful passport

[Boris]

That's not strictly speaking true though

I would change my vote to a "yes"  as long as there is a fiscal plan in place that will NOT see me taxed to hell, have my house devalued, savings depreciated  or pension stiffed even more than it already has.

Is New Scotland "big tax- big welfare"?

Is it "low tax big business"

Are we no nuclear power or more expensive leccy from turbines?

 

I would change my mind but I need a reason why, and I'm not facile enough to do it on the basis of "bad toffs" or some ideological crusade that will leave me literally paying a very high price for a rather less useful passport

 

As an aside, how do you see your taxes, house prices, pensions, savings etc fairing in a post brexit UK?

[frankblack]

Decent letter to be fair.

 

Wishing well on Brexit negotiations.

 

Looking for a good deal for the whole of the Uk

 

Although the timescale, which is within the timescale of the Brexit negotiations, doesn't seem to allow for any delay.

 

Which is precisely why the Tories won't commit to a date.

 

There is every chance of Brexit negotiations taking longer than scheduled and that wouldn't leave any time to see the result or judge the positives/negatives.  The SNP want to hijack the negotiations and kick them into touch, which is why they need to be kept at arms length as they are behaving like spoiled brats whose mum won't buy them some sweeties.

[Space Mackerel]

In full: Nicola Sturgeon's letter to Theresa May - The Telegraph

https://apple.news/Amg0s2IKmThCkJYEBK7oDHg

 

Not sure if work as from news feed but letter from NS to TM.

 

 

Brings a tear to a glass eye that does. 

[Boris]

Decent letter to be fair.

 

Wishing well on Brexit negotiations.

 

Looking for a good deal for the whole of the Uk

 

Although the timescale, which is within the timescale of the Brexit negotiations, doesn't seem to allow for any delay.

 

A consumate politician, Sturgeon does say, "As I have said previously, if the timetable you have set out changes, we will require to consider the implications for the timing of a referendum. However, it seems reasonable at this stage to work on the basis of your stated timetable."

 

Wiggle room there.

[doctor jambo]

As an aside, how do you see your taxes, house prices, pensions, savings etc fairing in a post brexit UK?

my suspicion is that they will either remain the same as we get a good deal - ie free market access but immigration curbs which would cause the following

-  the pound will rise because of the good deal , the economy will grow faster, wages will rise as labour will be remunerated at what it is worth- ie more than it is now which will be good for the lower paid- this in turn allows access to the housing market for them so it will, at least for a while - rise again

 

OR we get a terrible / no deal at which point we become a floating tax haven with marked reductions in corp tax, income tax and so on to make us over competitive with Europe, buisinesses will come into the country and employment will rise,and so will house prices. take home pay will rise too due to immigration curbs

 

at the moment we see the markets stiffing us rotten for no reason- they are speculating- at our expense.

neither of the Brexit scenarios will leave me worse off.

[Boris]

Which is precisely why the Tories won't commit to a date.

 

There is every chance of Brexit negotiations taking longer than scheduled and that wouldn't leave any time to see the result or judge the positives/negatives.  The SNP want to hijack the negotiations and kick them into touch, which is why they need to be kept at arms length as they are behaving like spoiled brats whose mum won't buy them some sweeties.

 

There is comment regards changing of timetables, enough to bat the ball back to May, and enough, the FM would think, to make her seem reasonable and flexible.

 

You seem really paranoid about the SNP.  I mean, I can't stand the Tories, I find their policies repugnant and their politicians equally so.  But you verge on the conspiracy theorist at times.  "Hijack negotiations", "kick them into touch".  I don't see where you get this from.  Now I also get that you dislike the SNP, which is fair enough, but your arguments, to me at least, sound a touch hysterical.  Or it could just be the way your posts come across to me.  

 

Anyway, apologies for that seque, and apologies if I have offended.  Not my intention, just curious regards your rhetoric.

[Unknown user]

Lets be honest, no ones going to change their mind on this thread.

 

All the info is out there if you look past the BBC, Sky and the London based MSM print.

You just can't say that, I bet people are influenced in their thinking.

I keep up with this thread because every now and again an interesting debate rises out of the sea of ****wittery, and I won't be the only one.

 

I'm a nationalist by nature, but with concerns. My bottom line though is I don't get why people are so convinced we need someone else looking after us. You never hear of former Soviet republics begging to be taken over by Russia again, so why the assumption that we're so shit we couldn't do it?

[doctor jambo]

You just can't say that, I bet people are influenced in their thinking.

I keep up with this thread because every now and again an interesting debate rises out of the sea of ****wittery, and I won't be the only one.

 

I'm a nationalist by nature, but with concerns. My bottom line though is I don't get why people are so convinced we need someone else looking after us. You never hear of former Soviet republics begging to be taken over by Russia again, so why the assumption that we're so shit we couldn't do it?

parts of the Ukraine would disagree with that

[Unknown user]

parts of the Ukraine would disagree with that

Parts of the Ukraine have never separated from the Ukraine to go back.

Anyway in any country there are hotspots of differing opinion, especially somewhere so cynically manipulated by the russians in terms of moving their people in to certain areas so public opinion is pro Russian. But of you bring it up, you know all that I'm sure

[frankblack]

There is comment regards changing of timetables, enough to bat the ball back to May, and enough, the FM would think, to make her seem reasonable and flexible.

 

You seem really paranoid about the SNP.  I mean, I can't stand the Tories, I find their policies repugnant and their politicians equally so.  But you verge on the conspiracy theorist at times.  "Hijack negotiations", "kick them into touch".  I don't see where you get this from.  Now I also get that you dislike the SNP, which is fair enough, but your arguments, to me at least, sound a touch hysterical.  Or it could just be the way your posts come across to me.  

 

Anyway, apologies for that seque, and apologies if I have offended.  Not my intention, just curious regards your rhetoric.

 

No - not paranoid.  If the SNP were flexible then they would say they would wait until Brexit is implemented and people can see the impact.

 

However, they are still giving mixed messages about their position in Europe to give a false impression that they can give a choice between Brexit and Independence when remaining in Europe isn't an option.

[Boris]

No - not paranoid.  If the SNP were flexible then they would say they would wait until Brexit is implemented and people can see the impact.

 

However, they are still giving mixed messages about their position in Europe to give a false impression that they can give a choice between Brexit and Independence when remaining in Europe isn't an option.

 

First point, I think they have been flexible, see the comments I made regards Sturgeon's letter.

 

Second point, the SNP isn't independence.  But if independent we could access the single market and enjoy EU benefits either through joining (which I suspect we would no problem), or via EEA or EFTA membership.

 

None of these options are there if we "hard" brexit.

[frankblack]

First point, I think they have been flexible, see the comments I made regards Sturgeon's letter.

 

Second point, the SNP isn't independence.  But if independent we could access the single market and enjoy EU benefits either through joining (which I suspect we would no problem), or via EEA or EFTA membership.

 

None of these options are there if we "hard" brexit.

 

I haven't read the letter but the SNP haven't been flexible so far regarding the time for an independence referendum - it has a fixed end date before Brexit is implemented.   EFTA is only a major factor if our economy was based on manufacturing, whereas I'd argue that finance and services are the biggest employer.

 

Accessing the local markets in the UK is the first priority for saving jobs as that is the biggest market for Scottish companies.  Brexit won't affect as many jobs as Independence.

[doctor jambo]

Parts of the Ukraine have never separated from the Ukraine to go back.

Anyway in any country there are hotspots of differing opinion, especially somewhere so cynically manipulated by the russians in terms of moving their people in to certain areas so public opinion is pro Russian. But of you bring it up, you know all that I'm sure

As  opposed to certain parts of Scotland being cynically manipulated by nationalists

 

politics is all a big old game no matter where in the world.

salmond wanted his statue somewhere on a plinth

 

Sturgeon is trying to write her own place in history

 

Narcissists all and to hell with the people

[jambo lodge]

Scotland does have ports you know..........

I don't like that argument

I am not a separatist but even  I hate that argument- perhaps our port towns would be revitalised and our airports too?

 

Wasn't an argument just a genuine question on what if. If the UK is out of the EU and Scotland is out of the UK then current routes of transport of say fish to Spain, livestock to mainland Europe will be closed to us?. 

[deesidejambo]

As opposed to certain parts of Scotland being cynically manipulated by nationalists

 

politics is all a big old game no matter where in the world.

salmond wanted his statue somewhere on a plinth

 

Sturgeon is trying to write her own place in history

 

Narcissists all and to hell with the people

I'm not sure Sturgeon is in it for herself I think she believes in her cause so that's fine by me.

 

But I do think she displayed naivety by going flat out the day after Brexit referendum. I think she should have waited to see how things settled but I think she may have been pushed by Eck into her now cornered position.

 

Her cornerstone grievance of freedom of movement has been scuppered so she will have to change tack on that to secure popular consensus.

 

The smart thing to do was to wait to find out what the majority wanted post Brexit and try and build from there.

 

Too late Nicola, Eck pushed you too quickly into

Indy2

[deesidejambo]

Wasn't an argument just a genuine question on what if. If the UK is out of the EU and Scotland is out of the UK then current routes of transport of say fish to Spain, livestock to mainland Europe will be closed to us?.

Not closed but subject to tariffs and possibly currency conversion charges no matter what currency Scotland ends up with.