Indy Ref Part Deux

[coconut doug]

If people on average earnings didn't want independence, would they not fall in Class group B and C1 (ie middle and lower middle class)? Whilst C2, D and E would fall into skilled labour, semi-skilled and unskilled/unemployed?

 

In which case surely Deeside is right to say more lower and working class people voters voted Yes than No.

 

In general those with less are more willing to try for political change when offered as they have less to lose with average and wealthier earners.

 

It all looks very similar to the Brexit vote. I.e. if you are wealthier and better educated you vote Remain more often than not than if you are less educated and poorer?

 

If people on average earnings didn't want independence, would they not fall in Class group B and C1 (ie middle and lower middle class)? Whilst C2, D and E would fall into skilled labour, semi-skilled and unskilled/unemployed?

 

In which case surely Deeside is right to say more lower and working class people voters voted Yes than No.

 

In general those with less are more willing to try for political change when offered as they have less to lose with average and wealthier earners.

 

It all looks very similar to the Brexit vote. I.e. if you are wealthier and better educated you vote Remain more often than not than if you are less educated and poorer?

No, because socio class B is one category away from the extreme. You are defining people using meaningless arbitrary labels and this study is about income.

 

The average social groupings are C1 and C2. given that the system employed is A,B,C1,C2,D,E and they are in the middle. The average income though is distorted by the significantly larger earnings of smaller numbers of people in categories A and B in particular but this is also likely to be the case for class Ci.

 

This means that those who earn the average salary will be in class C2 or perhaps even category D.

 

The study refutes entirely Deeside's and your assertion that poorer and less well educated people voted yes. It is the biggest and most contemporary study carried out on the subject.

 

It is not similar to the Brexit vote demographics at all and provides no support for your theory that those with less are more inclined for change. The very poorest in our society generally do not vote and in the Unionist world that inaction translates to a resounding vote of confidence in the status quo.

[coconut doug]

The reason we don't have the constant change is because in this poll Socio ABCs responded 62/38 and the DEs were 49/51 so the aggregate ends up in favour of No. simple arithmetic.

 

Anyway let's just agree there is no Socio Group difference despite the poll data.

So you totally disregard the BBC linked poll.

[coconut doug]

The reason we don't have the constant change is because in this poll Socio ABCs responded 62/38 and the DEs were 49/51 so the aggregate ends up in favour of No. simple arithmetic.

 

Anyway let's just agree there is no Socio Group difference despite the poll data.

You said this "Anyway NS enacted Section 30 despite the majority of voters on both sides of the Indy divide being against it. Yes's and No's. Recent polls clearly and consistently confirm that." Do you still stand by that statement given that the figures shown in the Survation poll you linked showed 85% of Yes voters in favour of Indyref2?

 

Don't you think it a silly thing to say given that a whole variety of polls show around a half of all voters want Indyref2? This should not be a surprise as almost half of Scottish voters want independence.

[reaths17]

You said this "Anyway NS enacted Section 30 despite the majority of voters on both sides of the Indy divide being against it. Yes's and No's. Recent polls clearly and consistently confirm that." Do you still stand by that statement given that the figures shown in the Survation poll you linked showed 85% of Yes voters in favour of Indyref2?

 

Don't you think it a silly thing to say given that a whole variety of polls show around a half of all voters want Indyref2? This should not be a surprise as almost half of Scottish voters want independence.

[reaths17]

So you totally disregard the BBC linked poll.

that link was from 2 YEARS ago, theres a whole load of shit happened since then, you got any polls from recently, that aren't some separatist blogger sitting in the hoose typing his own opinion.

[deesidejambo]

that link was from 2 YEARS ago, theres a whole load of shit happened since then, you got any polls from recently, that aren't some separatist blogger sitting in the hoose typing his own opinion.

Its simple.  The Polls clearly show it.

 

ABCs vote No

 

DEs vote Yes.

 

And the reasons why seem logical and reasonable.

[deesidejambo]

It's quantitative data provided by a reputable polling firm. It doesn't matter who analyzes it, the figures are there for you to challenge if you so wish.

Using poll data that's 2 years old is pretty silly.

 

There are many recent polls, all showing consistently the same answers -

 

Support for Indy has not moved and could be interpreted as dropping if the Kantar poll is used.

 

Scots don't want IndyRef2 soon, which is what the Tories are tapping into leading to their vote share increasing and SNP decreasing.

 

Why else do you think the Tories are getting increased support?

[JamboX2]

No, because socio class B is one category away from the extreme. You are defining people using meaningless arbitrary labels and this study is about income.

 

The average social groupings are C1 and C2. given that the system employed is A,B,C1,C2,D,E and they are in the middle. The average income though is distorted by the significantly larger earnings of smaller numbers of people in categories A and B in particular but this is also likely to be the case for class Ci.

 

This means that those who earn the average salary will be in class C2 or perhaps even category D.

 

The study refutes entirely Deeside's and your assertion that poorer and less well educated people voted yes. It is the biggest and most contemporary study carried out on the subject.

 

It is not similar to the Brexit vote demographics at all and provides no support for your theory that those with less are more inclined for change. The very poorest in our society generally do not vote and in the Unionist world that inaction translates to a resounding vote of confidence in the status quo.

But studies on the Brexit vote showed poorer areas were more likely to vote Leave than Remain.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

 

You're right that in general elections those from poorer backgrounds are less likely to vote but the independence and Brexit votes mobilized these areas like never before or at least sincethe days of mass voting in the late 1940s and 1950s.

 

To make it clearer to me: is your argument support was diffuse and spread across class backgrounds or that it was localised in specific bands?

 

More interested and not looking for a fight on this.

[coconut doug]

Using poll data that's 2 years old is pretty silly.

 

There are many recent polls, all showing consistently the same answers -

 

Support for Indy has not moved and could be interpreted as dropping if the Kantar poll is used.

 

Scots don't want IndyRef2 soon, which is what the Tories are tapping into leading to their vote share increasing and SNP decreasing.

 

Why else do you think the Tories are getting increased support?

Using data that is 2 years old is entirely relevant. I'm using it to disprove your claim that social class d and e is where the bulk of the Yes vote came from. This was by far the biggest study of the voting patterns and it took place immediately after the referendum and it disproves your theory absolutely. Remember the opening statement in the BBC link "The 'No' majority in the independence referendum last year is being explained by an unusual alliance of Scotland's youngest voters, its average earners, Protestants and women". That's what they said and that's what the figures show.

 

 

I notice you have now changed another of your misrepresentations from "Scots don't want Indyref2" to "Scots don't want Indyref2, soon". That would be correct now if you think around 2 years is not soon.

 

33% for the Tories is not enough to change the move towards indy and I doubt they will get that anyway. Most sensible Unionists know that voting Tory will make no difference to Indy prospects. If you don't want Independence you don't have to sell yourself to the Tories. Just vote No at the next referendum.

 

For some this is just an excuse to admit they are Tories. There's even somebody on here who is going to vote Tory who previously voted SNP but told us that voting SNP was a good thing because the success of SNP Mps at Westminster undermines the case for Indy. I wonder what made him change his mind, that is if really did change his mind and he hasn't been a Tory all along.

 

Let's see what unfolds over Brexit. Let's see what happens if May and the Tories are subjected to any media scrutiny.

[coconut doug]

But studies on the Brexit vote showed poorer areas were more likely to vote Leave than Remain.

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

 

You're right that in general elections those from poorer backgrounds are less likely to vote but the independence and Brexit votes mobilized these areas like never before or at least sincethe days of mass voting in the late 1940s and 1950s.

 

To make it clearer to me: is your argument support was diffuse and spread across class backgrounds or that it was localised in specific bands?

 

More interested and not looking for a fight on this.

I believe support for Yes was more diffuse and that is what is shown in the study I linked. Less so for No where immigrants, particularly English, women and OAP's predominated. These studies are all flawed IMO though. They often ask the wrong question and jump to the wrong conclusions. Curtice is no exception.

[deesidejambo]

Using data that is 2 years old is entirely relevant. I'm using it to disprove your claim that social class d and e is where the bulk of the Yes vote came from. This was by far the biggest study of the voting patterns and it took place immediately after the referendum and it disproves your theory absolutely. Remember the opening statement in the BBC link "The 'No' majority in the independence referendum last year is being explained by an unusual alliance of Scotland's youngest voters, its average earners, Protestants and women". That's what they said and that's what the figures show.

 

 

I notice you have now changed another of your misrepresentations from "Scots don't want Indyref2" to "Scots don't want Indyref2, soon". That would be correct now if you think around 2 years is not soon.

 

33% for the Tories is not enough to change the move towards indy and I doubt they will get that anyway. Most sensible Unionists know that voting Tory will make no difference to Indy prospects. If you don't want Independence you don't have to sell yourself to the Tories. Just vote No at the next referendum.

 

For some this is just an excuse to admit they are Tories. There's even somebody on here who is going to vote Tory who previously voted SNP but told us that voting SNP was a good thing because the success of SNP Mps at Westminster undermines the case for Indy. I wonder what made him change his mind, that is if really did change his mind and he hasn't been a Tory all along.

 

Let's see what unfolds over Brexit. Let's see what happens if May and the Tories are subjected to any media scrutiny.

It's pretty clear you are referring to me regarding voting intent.

 

I've not seen the Manifestos yet but I suspect Lib Dem will go with a penny on tax to fund social justice. I will vote for that.

 

However if it looks like the Tories get a shout to boot the SNP in my Constituency I'll vote Tory as the Union is important to me regardless of the fact that the sitting MP is doing a decent job.

 

I see the SNP are asking Greens to withdraw from some constituencies to protect the yes vote. So it's the SNP who are turning this into IndyRef2.

 

If the greens capitulate then they may suffer voter backlash or lose votes to the SNP in other constituencies if they are not careful.

 

But I'm happy that at the end of all this, Indy is doomed as the No vote will simply not change once Indy2 comes.

[coconut doug]

It's pretty clear you are referring to me regarding voting intent.

 

I've not seen the Manifestos yet but I suspect Lib Dem will go with a penny on tax to fund social justice. I will vote for that.

 

However if it looks like the Tories get a shout to boot the SNP in my Constituency I'll vote Tory as the Union is important to me regardless of the fact that the sitting MP is doing a decent job.

 

I see the SNP are asking Greens to withdraw from some constituencies to protect the yes vote. So it's the SNP who are turning this into IndyRef2.

 

If the greens capitulate then they may suffer voter backlash or lose votes to the SNP in other constituencies if they are not careful.

 

But I'm happy that at the end of all this, Indy is doomed as the No vote will simply not change once Indy2 comes.

Can you show me where the SNP are asking Greens to "withdraw from some constituencies"?

[deesidejambo]

Can you show me where the SNP are asking Greens to "withdraw from some constituencies"?

Reported on BBC website. Scottish Politics.

[coconut doug]

Reported on BBC website. Scottish Politics.

This is not the SNP it is a comment by Tommy Shepherd. It was a personal comment and not policy of the SNP or Greens.

[pablo]

What an own goal by the Nationalists and Socialists. The Tories were dead in Scotland until their (snp / green ) divisive bitter message encouraged Scots to look again at the Conservative party. Finding the message of hard work, family unity and personal responsibility chimes with traditional Scots values, the Tories are in the ascendancy once more.

 

Hilarious really.

[JamboX2]

This is not the SNP it is a comment by Tommy Shepherd. It was a personal comment and not policy of the SNP or Greens.

C'mon now... do you think the same of Ian Murray's comments of late?

 

Frankly, I think the Greens need to be careful not to overly associate themselves with the SNP. It won't serve them well in the long run.

[coconut doug]

C'mon now... do you think the same of Ian Murray's comments of late?

 

Frankly, I think the Greens need to be careful not to overly associate themselves with the SNP. It won't serve them well in the long run.

The claim was that the SNP have asked the Greens to withdraw, they have not and would not ask any other party not to stand. It is another misrepresentation.. Shepherd said they should consider where they stand. He is an individual expressing an opinion. An opinion that is irrelevant because the decision on whether or not to stand lies with individual Green branches. They will be having this conversation anyway. 

 

I think it is a good idea for the Greens to advance their aims through the SNP and an independent Scotland. There is absolutely no chance of any meaningful green agenda being enacted in the U.K. as a whole.

 

I also think it has not been good for Labour to power share with the Tories. They have now lost their identity and when their leader tries to restore their principles they turn on him. THe SNP and the Greens have a clear identity despite working co-operatively at times. It's an association that has worked well for both.

 

I can only imagine that Labour are applying that old adage that you should keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

[Sarah O]

.

[Boris]

What an own goal by the Nationalists and Socialists. The Tories were dead in Scotland until their (snp / green ) divisive bitter message encouraged Scots to look again at the Conservative party. Finding the message of hard work, family unity and personal responsibility chimes with traditional Scots values, the Tories are in the ascendancy once more.

 

Hilarious really.

 

So nothing to do with Unionism then? Because that's all the Tories seem to bang on about.  Little or no policy messages, just No to Indy Ref.  Sounds quite bitter and divisive...

[frankblack]

The claim was that the SNP have asked the Greens to withdraw, they have not and would not ask any other party not to stand. It is another misrepresentation.. Shepherd said they should consider where they stand. He is an individual expressing an opinion. An opinion that is irrelevant because the decision on whether or not to stand lies with individual Green branches. They will be having this conversation anyway. 

 

I think it is a good idea for the Greens to advance their aims through the SNP and an independent Scotland. There is absolutely no chance of any meaningful green agenda being enacted in the U.K. as a whole.

 

I also think it has not been good for Labour to power share with the Tories. They have now lost their identity and when their leader tries to restore their principles they turn on him. THe SNP and the Greens have a clear identity despite working co-operatively at times. It's an association that has worked well for both.

 

I can only imagine that Labour are applying that old adage that you should keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

 

The SNP have no clear policies and have abdicated responsibility for running the country since the last Holyrood election to go all out for Indy Ref 2.

 

We are now facing a series of strikes in further education at a time when people sit their end of year exams, and the NHS up here is a shambles, but never mind eh, we can blame the tories for the rape clause that we don't want to use our powers to overrule.

[Space Mackerel]

It's pretty clear you are referring to me regarding voting intent.

 

I've not seen the Manifestos yet but I suspect Lib Dem will go with a penny on tax to fund social justice. I will vote for that.

 

However if it looks like the Tories get a shout to boot the SNP in my Constituency I'll vote Tory as the Union is important to me regardless of the fact that the sitting MP is doing a decent job.

 

I see the SNP are asking Greens to withdraw from some constituencies to protect the yes vote. So it's the SNP who are turning this into IndyRef2.

 

If the greens capitulate then they may suffer voter backlash or lose votes to the SNP in other constituencies if they are not careful.

 

But I'm happy that at the end of all this, Indy is doomed as the No vote will simply not change once Indy2 comes.

49% Yes voters now.

 

Dem da facts.

 

 

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[reaths17]

49% Yes voters now.

 

Dem da facts.

 

 

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ah, after hiding when the polls blew the separatists to bits, yer back. salute.

 

its good to get back to answering drivel posts, you don't have to join in, you havn't answered anything so far.

[Radio Ga Ga]

49% Yes voters now.

 

Dem da facts.

 

 

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So down 10% in a week since YOU posted yes at 59% LOL

[Space Mackerel]

ah, after hiding when the polls blew the separatists to bits, yer back. salute.

 

its good to get back to answering drivel posts, you don't have to join in, you havn't answered anything so far.

"Blew us to bits"

Torys will end up under 30 %

 

As they always do.

 

 

 

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[reaths17]

"Blew us to bits"

Torys will end up under 30 %

 

As they always do.

 

 

 

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only under the SNP's watch have the evil tories been able to get 30% in Scotland, hang your separatist head in shame.

[AlphonseCapone]

So nothing to do with Unionism then? Because that's all the Tories seem to bang on about. Little or no policy messages, just No to Indy Ref. Sounds quite bitter and divisive...

Literally all they've got Boris and everyone on here knows it.

[Space Mackerel]

only under the SNP's watch have the evil tories been able to get 30% in Scotland, hang your separatist head in shame.

1 trick party on Yoonyinism can only muster 30%.

 

Tick and indeed tock. [emoji2]

 

 

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[reaths17]

1 trick party on Yoonyinism can only muster 30%.

 

Tick and indeed tock. [emoji2]

 

 

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are you not even the slightest bit embarrassed, the SNP have become that bad (SNP bad) that scots are unwillingly having to vote conservative. I suppose collateral damage/ independence at any cost is all you separatists care about, and tae **** wi Scotland and it's people.

[Space Mackerel]

are you not even the slightest bit embarrassed, the SNP have become that bad (SNP bad) that scots are unwillingly having to vote conservative. I suppose collateral damage/ independence at any cost is all you separatists care about, and tae **** wi Scotland and it's people.

Give me 1 Scottish Tory policy in the council election OR the General Election.

 

 

 

 

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[reaths17]

Give me 1 Scottish Tory policy in the council election OR the General Election.

 

 

 

 

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the Scottish people have said no to independence, they have said no to the temple of doom(indy2) but what do the people matter "any costs will be dandy, **** the people and democracy"

[Space Mackerel]

the Scottish people have said no to independence, they have said no to the temple of doom(indy2) but what do the people matter "any costs will be dandy, **** the people and democracy"

1 policy please. Take your time. [emoji2]

 

 

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[reaths17]

1 policy please. Take your time. [emoji2]

 

 

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this is indyref2 thread, we hate the tories/Westminster/the English is a different one.

 

so now you've crawled back oot " are you not even embarrassed a wee tiny bit, with what indyref 2 is doing to the people of Scotland ?

 

I don't expect you to answer, you've never managed to think up an answer before, maybe be a wee link to WOS, just to prove its really you back

[Space Mackerel]

this is indyref2 thread, we hate the tories/Westminster/the English is a different one.

 

so now you've crawled back oot " are you not even embarrassed a wee tiny bit, with what indyref 2 is doing to the people of Scotland ?

 

I don't expect you to answer, you've never managed to think up an answer before, maybe be a wee link to WOS, just to prove its really you back

Imagine being so stupid you vote for a party with no policies.

Still waiting by the way.

 

Just one. [emoji2]

 

 

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[Hasselhoff]

Give me 1 Scottish Tory policy in the council election OR the General Election.

 

 

 

 

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Restricted tax credits up to 2 kids (with exceptions). Sturgeon also agreed with the cap last time round - she can reverse it if she wants using her devolved powers on welfare, no wait...., she asked the evil Tories to keep a hold of those until 2020

[AlphonseCapone]

are you not even the slightest bit embarrassed, the SNP have become that bad (SNP bad) that scots are unwillingly having to vote conservative. I suppose collateral damage/ independence at any cost is all you separatists care about, and tae **** wi Scotland and it's people.

So is your point that the Tories are really shite and it's an indictment on the SNP that folk are voting for them?

[reaths17]

Imagine being so stupid you vote for a party with no policies.

Still waiting by the way.

 

Just one. [emoji2]

 

 

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I vote for no parties as such, I vote, I vote for the least vomit inducing side, their ALL liars, the stupid one here is you the disciple who believes any old shit.

 

now back to the topic, aren't you hugely embarrassed that you've forced the people of Scotland to vote tory ? because of your demented persistence with what the people voted against.

[reaths17]

So is your point that the Tories are really shite and it's an indictment on the SNP that folk are voting for them?

the SNP have been in government for 10 years and refuse to govern, labour have climbed up their own erse and got lost.... which leaves the tories.... 1 + 1 = 2 it's no difficult, you shouldn't need to ask the bloody question.

[Boris]

are you not even the slightest bit embarrassed, the SNP have become that bad (SNP bad) that scots are unwillingly having to vote conservative. I suppose collateral damage/ independence at any cost is all you separatists care about, and tae **** wi Scotland and it's people.

 

Are you blaming the SNP for people voting Tory?  Really?

 

Oh my.

[Boris]

I vote for no parties as such, I vote, I vote for the least vomit inducing side, their ALL liars, the stupid one here is you the disciple who believes any old shit.

 

now back to the topic, aren't you hugely embarrassed that you've forced the people of Scotland to vote tory ? because of your demented persistence with what the people voted against.

 

 

the SNP have been in government for 10 years and refuse to govern, labour have climbed up their own erse and got lost.... which leaves the tories.... 1 + 1 = 2 it's no difficult, you shouldn't need to ask the bloody question.

 

Wot no Lib Dems or Greens?

[Doogz]

So is your point that the Tories are really shite and it's an indictment on the SNP that folk are voting for them?

 

I know you didn't ask me - but .....

My Dad who in my lifetime has always been an SNP supporter (to such an extent he actually represented the party at council elections in the late 70's) is sick of the lack of any real policy from the SNP in Scottish Government and the rush on Indy Ref 2. We were discussing this at the weekend and he confirmed he would still vote SNP at the local elections (because he knows the guys standing and thinks they're good councillors)  but not in the general election and will vote 'No' at the next Indy Ref.

I don't think he'll go as far as switching his vote to Conservative - but I was quite shocked that he would no longer back the SNP at the GE or on Indy. Obviously, this is based just on the view of my Dad but if that's an indication of how someone who was strongly in favour of SNP and Indy up to 3 years ago feels now, combined with the issues with Labour largely being seen as a wasted vote in a lot of seats then it's no surprise to me that the Conservatives are currently polling well (by their standards) up here pushing the 'pro-union' & 'Anti-SNP' messages.

[Radio Ga Ga]

Are you blaming the SNP for people voting Tory?  Really?

 

Oh my.

Would you not agree that the SNP have pushed No voters towards the Tory's? How else do you explain their double digit increase in the polls? Genuinely interested.

[Space Mackerel]

I vote for no parties as such, I vote, I vote for the least vomit inducing side, their ALL liars, the stupid one here is you the disciple who believes any old shit.

 

now back to the topic, aren't you hugely embarrassed that you've forced the people of Scotland to vote tory ? because of your demented persistence with what the people voted against.

One policy?

 

Why are you voting Tory?

 

 

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[Boris]

I know you didn't ask me - but .....

My Dad who in my lifetime has always been an SNP supporter (to such an extent he actually represented the party at council elections in the late 70's) is sick of the lack of any real policy from the SNP in Scottish Government and the rush on Indy Ref 2. We were discussing this at the weekend and he confirmed he would still vote SNP at the local elections (because he knows the guys standing and thinks they're good councillors)  but not in the general election and will vote 'No' at the next Indy Ref.

I don't think he'll go as far as switching his vote to Conservative - but I was quite shocked that he would no longer back the SNP at the GE or on Indy. Obviously, this is based just on the view of my Dad but if that's an indication of how someone who was strongly in favour of SNP and Indy up to 3 years ago feels now, combined with the issues with Labour largely being seen as a wasted vote in a lot of seats then it's no surprise to me that the Conservatives are currently polling well (by their standards) up here pushing the 'pro-union' & 'Anti-SNP' messages.

 

Well, to anyone voting Tory all I would say is be careful what you wish for.

 

I've voted for other parties in my time to try to avoid a Tory being elected, so you could say that this is exactly what people are doing to avoid the SNP getting in.

 

My retort would be that in  my case a Lib Dem or a Labour representative (dare I say an SNP one too!) was aligned to the anti-Tory ideal than a Tory is against the SNP.

 

Think about it.

 

A vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence.  That has to go to a referendum.  Then you have a 50/50 choice  Yes or no.  Unionists are so confident of victory, why haven't they just said ok, let's do it!

 

But electing Tories to your local council or to Westminster is not going to stop a referendum.  Holyrood is the vehicle for that.  By electing Tories you are putting your local communities and their services at risk, at Westminster level you are putting the whole UK at risk (ironic for unionists?).  All IMO, of course.

 

BUt a lot of people have been suckered by Tory propaganda - vote Tory and they will use you as the excuse for them to do what they want, at your expense.

 

You don't want an independnet Scotland?  Great, say so at the referendum.  Which if held tomorrow I don't doubt No would win.

 

Vote in Tory MP's and leave it until after Brexit is negotiated and May has been in charge for two years out of her five, then you might just find yourself wanting to pop that x in the YES box. (which of course kind of negates my argument! but hopefully you get my drift!)

[Radio Ga Ga]

Well, to anyone voting Tory all I would say is be careful what you wish for.

 

I've voted for other parties in my time to try to avoid a Tory being elected, so you could say that this is exactly what people are doing to avoid the SNP getting in.

 

My retort would be that in  my case a Lib Dem or a Labour representative (dare I say an SNP one too!) was aligned to the anti-Tory ideal than a Tory is against the SNP.

 

Think about it.

 

A vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence.  That has to go to a referendum.  Then you have a 50/50 choice  Yes or no.  Unionists are so confident of victory, why haven't they just said ok, let's do it!

 

But electing Tories to your local council or to Westminster is not going to stop a referendum.  Holyrood is the vehicle for that.  By electing Tories you are putting your local communities and their services at risk, at Westminster level you are putting the whole UK at risk (ironic for unionists?).  All IMO, of course.

 

BUt a lot of people have been suckered by Tory propaganda - vote Tory and they will use you as the excuse for them to do what they want, at your expense.

 

You don't want an independnet Scotland?  Great, say so at the referendum.  Which if held tomorrow I don't doubt No would win.

 

Vote in Tory MP's and leave it until after Brexit is negotiated and May has been in charge for two years out of her five, then you might just find yourself wanting to pop that x in the YES box. (which of course kind of negates my argument! but hopefully you get my drift!)

Sorry Boris, Salmond as recently as yesterday on his LBC show (how ironic!) said a vote for the SNP was a vote for independence! My three votes (I get my wife and sons as they are not interested in politics) will be going to the Conservative candidate as tactical votes, anything to give the SNP the message that the majority are not interested in their ideology

[Boris]

Would you not agree that the SNP have pushed No voters towards the Tory's? How else do you explain their double digit increase in the polls? Genuinely interested.

 

Because enough Labour voters have jumped ship?

 

Surely if anyone is to "blame" it is the Labour Party and to a degree the Lib Dems?  Why should the Tory party be the focal point for disaffected Unionists?

[Boris]

Sorry Boris, Salmond as recently as yesterday on his LBC show (how ironic!) said a vote for the SNP was a vote for independence! My three votes (I get my wife and sons as they are not interested in politics) will be going to the Conservative candidate as tactical votes, anything to give the SNP the message that the majority are not interested in their ideology

 

Salmond showboating.

 

Think about where the election is for, what the issues are.  Independence has f all to do with it.

 

But if you think voting in Tories is the way forward, go for it.  Just don't complain about it afterwards.

[Radio Ga Ga]

Because enough Labour voters have jumped ship?

 

Surely if anyone is to "blame" it is the Labour Party and to a degree the Lib Dems?  Why should the Tory party be the focal point for disaffected Unionists?

In one word - Corbyn

 

Unelectable, he's so far left he's almost bloody Communist! If Labour had a half decent Centre/Centre Left leader they might not win the election but they wouldn't get the horsing that's coming their way.

[Radio Ga Ga]

Salmond showboating.

 

Think about where the election is for, what the issues are.  Independence has f all to do with it.

 

But if you think voting in Tories is the way forward, go for it.  Just don't complain about it afterwards.

Independence might have f all to do with it, but you can bet your bottom dollar that Sturgeon and Salmond would be all over it like a rash if the SNP get a high percentage of the vote. Remember at the last GE they said a vote for them was NOT a vote for independence...

[reaths17]

Because enough Labour voters have jumped ship?

 

Surely if anyone is to "blame" it is the Labour Party and to a degree the Lib Dems?  Why should the Tory party be the focal point for disaffected Unionists?

because unlike the SNP who refuse to govern, they will at least give you your moneys worth. don't try and smudge it with libs/labs/greens nonsense, as things stand we have a 2 party election, one being the sit on your hands(independence at all costs party) and the ****in tories.

[reaths17]

One policy?

 

Why are you voting Tory?

 

 

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your question was answered by another poster, you still have no answers to anything, your brain stopped working when it was washed and all you can do is post links to the lord WOS