Pans Jambo Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 31 minutes ago, Phil Dunphy said: Tripped myself up Bit laughable you think that the other side from you were all brainwashed while you’re on the side of the free thinker. You need to grow up a bit mate. OK dad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said: The U.K. has a different relationship with the EU than other member states. I thought that might be common knowledge but apparently not. Could you explain the logic of an independent Scotland being able to survive without some form of special relationship with the U.K. and the EU. Can you also confirm you understand that Scotland seeking its own admission to the EU would do so on the EU’s terms. And, please, none of the nonsense about we’ll worry about EU membership after we are independent. The independence pretext at the top of the list is “being dragged out of Europe against our wishes”. Wouldn't it be ironic if parts of Scotland were dragged out of the U.K. against their wishes. Your entire independence plan is pie-in-the-sky. There is no credible economic plan, there is no magic money tree and it is pointless hoping that something will turn up just because we are Scotland. I have asked, on several occasions, about what will replace the 15% if industrial output that relies on the Royal Navy. I have yet to see a coherent response and certainly nothing that disputes that fact - do you have an answer that is not in any way abusive? "if parts of Scotland were dragged out the UK against their wishes" Edited June 8, 2018 by Space Mackerel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 On 07/06/2018 at 09:22, Doogz said: Congratulations, by moving on from refusing to answer questions to not even being prepared to ask questions directly of the person you want to answer them you appear an even more petulant fool than usual: Quite the achievement! Anyway, what are the details of your "hypothetical state of affairs" ? If we did join in your hypothetical scenario, then it would not be them deciding on your economy - it would just be a larger us deciding on our larger economy. Also, even with the extra 17 English MPs you've added, based on current populations, if Scotland were to join with 59 MPs we'll be getting better representation/influence per voter than those in England. Yes, I would vote in the referendum - but much like any referendum I'd want to hear the reasons for and against the proposal, the facts and figures on the underlying economies etc. before deciding which way to vote. Would you vote against this referendum even if the facts and figures indicated it would improve the situation in Scotland regarding economic growth, salaries, pensions, give Government an increased budget to spend on welfare, education and Health? @Space Mackerel Still waiting! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 3 hours ago, Boris said: I disagree. The SNP are at least governing - the electorate seems to think they are representing their will given their continued support in elections and subsequent polls. I don't disagree that admission of failings would be a good thing - humility in a politician is quite refreshing! Rightly, the SNP will be criticised for their handling of government by the opposition, that's politics, but the narrative that the SNP is simply hell bent on referendum and indy and not doing anything else is, imo, wrong. For the record I didn't vote SNP at the last Holyrood elections. On a UK scale, the Tories are shambolic, are ruining the country and about to wreck it further, again imo. So voting for them up here, in an electoral flick of the vics to the SNP, is cutting ones nose off to spite ones face. Thus, to suggest that it is overall Tory policy that has rejuvenated that party's fortune up here simply doesn't wash. Again, imo. The tories are hoovering up the ultra unionist votes. They have no policy other than no indyref 2. Anybidy that can’t see that or thinks the tories are suddenly becoming popular again is an idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Doogz said: @Space Mackerel Still waiting! ? You are a 100% Unionist pal, you lied way back at the start saying you were a floating voter so engaging with all this is pretty fruitless. BTW, have a look at the clubs badge, that is a St Andrews Cross embedded in there because HMFC is a Scottish club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, jack D and coke said: The tories are hoovering up the ultra unionist votes. They have no policy other than no indyref 2. Anybidy that can’t see that or thinks the tories are suddenly becoming popular again is an idiot. I know I shouldn't but rumours on net saying RT saying Yes vote up to 50% now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said: You are a 100% Unionist pal, you lied way back at the start saying you were a floating voter so engaging with all this is pretty fruitless. BTW, have a look at the clubs badge, that is a St Andrews Cross embedded in there because HMFC is a Scottish club Still no answers - what a shock! Regarding your claims I'm a 100% Unionist as usual you're 100% wrong: I don't have dogmatic preference either way: I just look at the information available and try to decide what is best for me, my family, friends and the country as a whole. You, it appears are 100% for Indy regardless of the potential negative impacts. As long as you get what you want what does it matter what the country suffers?... Sounds like the sort of thing you accuse the tories of ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: I know I shouldn't but rumours on net saying RT saying Yes vote up to 50% now. Aye, rumours from the SNP Conference in Aberdeen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Doogz said: Still no answers - what a shock! Regarding your claims I'm a 100% Unionist as usual you're 100% wrong: I don't have dogmatic preference either way: I just look at the information available and try to decide what is best for me, my family, friends and the country as a whole. You, it appears are 100% for Indy regardless of the potential negative impacts. As long as you get what you want what does it matter what the country suffers?... Sounds like the sort of thing you accuse the tories of ? I am 100% sure there are people who could convince you that indy is a much better course of action. Follow them on your Twitter for links and articles if you desire. I have already uploaded 2 PDF's for your info. Here is another decent article https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/06/07/why-scotland-should-reject-the-sterlingisation-option-and-instead-create-its-own-currency/ Edited June 8, 2018 by Space Mackerel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: I am 100% sure there are people who could convince you that indy is a much better course of action. Follow them on your Twitter for links and articles if you desire. I have already uploaded 2 PDF's for your info. Here is another decent article https://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/06/07/why-scotland-should-reject-the-sterlingisation-option-and-instead-create-its-own-currency/ How about you just answer the questions ? at the very least you could tlstart by trying to clarify the scenario in your hypothetical scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Doogz said: How about you just answer the questions ? at the very least you could tlstart by trying to clarify the scenario in your hypothetical scenario. I thought you were after info to make up your mind? Make up your mind please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: I thought you were after info to make up your mind? Make up your mind please I'll have your answers then please! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, Doogz said: I'll have your answers then please! ? “By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: “By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” Hope you didn't google that while avoiding answering yet again.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, Doogz said: Hope you didn't google that while avoiding answering yet again.? “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: “When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger.” Aye- more deflection. Why not just answer the questions? If you're scared you'll say something stupid no need to worry......that horse bolted quite a while ago! ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 10 minutes ago, Doogz said: Aye- more deflection. Why not just answer the questions? If you're scared you'll say something stupid no need to worry......that horse bolted quite a while ago! ? “The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: “The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions.” Shame, I know adult debate is difficult for you but you could at least try. Nice to see you've got the hang of google at least ? "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said: "if parts of Scotland were dragged out the UK against their wishes" Of course it is ridiculous but no more so than this... https://www.politico.eu/article/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-will-not-be-dragged-out-of-the-eu/ I would have thought that the word “ironic” might have tipped you off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said: Of course it is ridiculous but no more so than this... https://www.politico.eu/article/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-will-not-be-dragged-out-of-the-eu/ I would have thought that the word “ironic” might have tipped you off. Erm... Scotland is a country England is a country Wales is a Principality NI is a Province The UK is not a country. This is basic Geography, lesson 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 On a slightly different note... Did anyone know that the Queensferry Crossing was declared Project of the Decade at GE Awards in London 7th June 2018? Why was this not on our news so we could celebrate our success? Answer: IT DOESNT FIT IN WITH THE SNP BAD MANTRA COMING FROM MOST OF OUR MEDIA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, Pans Jambo said: On a slightly different note... Did anyone know that the Queensferry Crossing was declared Project of the Decade at GE Awards in London 7th June 2018? Why was this not on our news so we could celebrate our success? Answer: IT DOESNT FIT IN WITH THE SNP BAD MANTRA COMING FROM MOST OF OUR MEDIA. Sair yin, they'll be back to mentioning Chinese steel and Gaelic road signs again after a few days personal solitary confinement. Hud the Klaxon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Barack said: Wales isn't a Principality, mate. I'll let you get back to debating with Doogz and Thunderstruck, as the thread could get side tracked otherwise. What is it then dude? Not another country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doogz Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said: What is it then dude? Not another country? Aye it's a country .... See how easy it is to answer a question! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said: What is it then dude? Not another country? It's a country, but not a sovereign state. It isn't ruled by a prince so it isn't a principality and hasn't been for nearly 500 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Just now, Smithee said: It's a country, but not a sovereign state. It isn't ruled by a prince so it isn't a principality and hasn't been for nearly 500 years So that's 3 countries now. What of NI? How can 3 countries become one country then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: So that's 3 countries now. What of NI? How can 3 countries become one country then? Scotland, England, Wales are countries, the UK is both a country and a sovereign state Northern Ireland is debatable, I've even seen it described as a statelet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Smithee said: Scotland, England, Wales are countries, the UK is both a country and a sovereign state Northern Ireland is debatable, I've even seen it described as a statelet How can 3 countries become a country then? Is the EU a country or a state? is the UK a country or a state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said: Erm... Scotland is a country England is a country Wales is a Principality NI is a Province The UK is not a country. This is basic Geography, lesson 1. Nowt to do with Geography. A country - perhaps. A state - no. http://www.un.org/en/member-states/ The above link is to the United Nations' List of Member States - if you can be bothered to read it, you will find that it is quite easy to navigate so scroll down to "S" to see if you can spot Scotland. Scroll down a wee bit further and see if you can find "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The United Kingdom is described elsewhere as "A Commonwealth Realm consisting of four constituent countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales." (plus Overseas Territories). The United Kingdom is the Sovereign State. The EU vote was a referendum of the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which was organised into councils and regions for the sake of administrative convenience in the poll. All that mattered in the outcome was total votes for Leave vs Remain. The Independence vote was a referendum of an administrative part of the United Kingdom which was organised by council areas for the sake of administrative convenience. All that mattered in the outcome was was total votes for Yes vs No. Both polls were carried out under the Representation of the People legislation (UK Law). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 The U.K. is not a country. It is to rangers fans and our wee hun element though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 18 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: How can 3 countries become a country then? Is the EU a country or a state? is the UK a country or a state? **** me, does Google not work for you or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Just now, jack D and coke said: The U.K. is not a country. It is to rangers fans and our wee hun element though. The UK absolutely is a country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Just now, Smithee said: The UK absolutely is a country No it's not. Scotland and England are 2 separate kingdoms. Wales and NI always thought a principality and a region of Ireland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said: No it's not. Scotland and England are 2 separate kingdoms. Wales and NI always thought a principality and a region of Ireland. Nope. A principality is an area ruled by a prince. This was last true of Wales in the 16th century. A country has a distinct and identifiable cultural, geopolitical and language history. Scotland is a country, England is a country, Wales is a country and the UK is a country. Of these only the uk is a sovereign state though. Edited June 8, 2018 by Smithee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said: Erm... Scotland is a country England is a country Wales is a Principality NI is a Province The UK is not a country. This is basic Geography, lesson 1. Not geography at all. It's political. The UK is a sovereign nation of 4 countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, Smithee said: Nope. A principality is an area ruled by a prince. This was last true of Wales in the 16th century. A country has a distinct and identifiable cultural, geopolitical and language history. Scotland is a country, England is a country, Wales is a country and the UK is a country. Of these only the uk is a sovereign state though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, JamboX2 said: Not geography at all. It's political. The UK is a sovereign nation of 4 countries. I don't think NI is a country - it's never been a nation in it's own right so doean't have its own geopolitical history. It's only ever been a region of a larger country as far as I know, firstly of Ireland then the UK. Scotland, England, Wales and the UK are unarguably countries though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 36 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: How can 3 countries become a country then? Is the EU a country or a state? is the UK a country or a state? Interesting question. It provides rights and liberties by virtue of membership. So arguably it does have the attributes of a civic body or nation. But it only has these abilities by agreement of its members... so it's really a supranational entity like an integrated NATO. UK is a nation state. It's a sovereign nation composed of 4 countries. Not as controversial as nationalists seem to claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Just now, JamboX2 said: Interesting question. It provides rights and liberties by virtue of membership. So arguably it does have the attributes of a civic body or nation. But it only has these abilities by agreement of its members... so it's really a supranational entity like an integrated NATO. UK is a nation state. It's a sovereign nation composed of 4 countries. Not as controversial as nationalists seem to claim. Indeed, Yugoslavia was a legitimate country, so was Czechoslovakia and the USSR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Just now, Smithee said: I don't think NI is a country - it's never been a nation in it's own right so doean't have its own geopolitical history. It's only ever been a region of a larger country as far as I know, firstly of Ireland then the UK. This matters not a jot. In 1922 there'd never been an independent state known as Ireland or the Irish Free State. Yet it became one. Both Ireland and NI have their own geopolitical history. Ulster was Scottish on off under Robert Bruce then later under English rule. So your point is off. Not that these things matter. Should I wish to declare an independent Leith in a popular vote it could become one regardless of history. Just now, Smithee said: Scotland, England, Wales and the UK are unarguably countries though. Well yes. And since 1922 so has NI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 41 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said: How can 3 countries become a country then? Is the EU a country or a state? is the UK a country or a state? Apologies for the arsey response earlier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, JamboX2 said: This matters not a jot. In 1922 there'd never been an independent state known as Ireland or the Irish Free State. Yet it became one. Both Ireland and NI have their own geopolitical history. Ulster was Scottish on off under Robert Bruce then later under English rule. So your point is off. Not that these things matter. Should I wish to declare an independent Leith in a popular vote it could become one regardless of history. Well yes. And since 1922 so has NI. If Northern Ireland declares independence as a country, it'll also become a country, but that hasn't happened so I'd disagree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, Smithee said: If Northern Ireland declares independence as a country, it'll also become a country, but that hasn't happened so I'd disagree None of that makes sense. There's never been a Wales before indication with England. So no Welsh Country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: None of that makes sense. There's never been a Wales before indication with England. So no Welsh Country? There was, that Owain chap led an independent Wales for a bit. If anything, in 1922 northern Ireland declared dependence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwanHearts Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 A lot of Yes voters on this thread are really hurting. The vote was No, now get over it. Wee Nicola is a shite politician who is haemorrhaging support and credibility by the day. It's glorious, roll on 2021. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: None of that makes sense. There's never been a Wales before indication with England. So no Welsh Country? 7 minutes ago, Smithee said: There was, that Owain chap led an independent Wales for a bit. If anything, in 1922 northern Ireland declared dependence. I looked it up, looks like it was 13th century when Wales was last independent, but independent it was. Northern Ireland didn't exist until 1922 though and has no history as an entity before that. Ulster had existed previously but they're not the same thing of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 31 minutes ago, JamboX2 said: Politically it may be a country as it's a state. Scotland and England are countries within it but not states although nations. Is Wales under English rule as don't think they have separate education or law systems like Scotland? All very confusing. Never heard anyone call UK a country apart from politicians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Hearts Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 13 minutes ago, EwanHearts said: A lot of Yes voters on this thread are really hurting. The vote was No, now get over it. Wee Nicola is a shite politician who is haemorrhaging support and credibility by the day. It's glorious, roll on 2021. I'm not hurting and Nicola doing fine. Not as good as Salmond but streets ahead of any of the other pathetic lackies and subservients. Mundell, Davidson, Leonard and Rennie FFS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown user Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said: Politically it may be a country as it's a state. Scotland and England are countries within it but not states although nations. Is Wales under English rule as don't think they have separate education or law systems like Scotland? All very confusing. Never heard anyone call UK a country apart from politicians. Being a sovereign state is enough in itself to be classified as a country, and although they don't call it the right name, you'll see GBR at the Olympics (and the world cup if fifa get their way!) I do get why NI is up for debate though, I can see the other side's point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EwanHearts Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 52 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said: Politically it may be a country as it's a state. Scotland and England are countries within it but not states although nations. Is Wales under English rule as don't think they have separate education or law systems like Scotland? All very confusing. Never heard anyone call UK a country apart from politicians. You must have wool in your ears, or in your head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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