Even More SNP Nonsense

[Doogz]

59 minutes ago, jumpship said:

So the debate going on in this thread reads like.

 

 

Scottish Independence was a step into the unknown.  Scots voted No.

Brexit is a step into the unknown. Again the Scots voted No.

 

The English voted yes to Brexit and the unknown.  

 

Looks like the English have Guts.

We Scots don't.

 

Like mangey old gorillas locked up in a dilapidated zoo.  

When given freedom they choose to stay in their crap filled cages as its all they know.

To scared to grasp their freedom.

 

That's about right?

 

 

Nope!

Unfortunately with Brexit a lot of people were gullible enough to believe the lies of Farage, Gove, Johnson etc. around what a wonderful place post-Brexit Britain would become.

As the negotiations continue and the reality is becoming clearer a lot of these people now regret their choice:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-new-eu-leave-regret-remain-yougov-times-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html

 

These number will likely increase once the true immediate impact of Brexit is known (long term it's possible it will improve but it will take years to just recover).

 

What I (& others) are suggesting is that we need to avoid repeating the mistakes of Brexit:

Firstly (before another Indy referendum) we need as transparent a debate as possible around the impacts (both positive & negative) of Independence.

This will at least allow the voters to make an informed choice and everyone will be better placed to predict the impact should 'Yes' win.

 

What seems increasingly clear from reading this thread is that the more prolific pro-indy supporters appear to want to suppress these detailed discussions.

Instead they prefer to label anyone asking questions as 'too frightened' or 'Not Scottish', engage in 'whatabootery' deflection or just ignore the points all together.

I find it difficult to understand that people who seem so convinced that Indy is the correct option for the country aren't prepared to engage in discussion around the economic consequences.

  

[Hasselhoff]

7 minutes ago, Doogz said:

 

Nope!

Unfortunately with Brexit a lot of people were gullible enough to believe the lies of Farage, Gove, Johnson etc. around what a wonderful place post-Brexit Britain would become.

As the negotiations continue and the reality is becoming clearer a lot of these people now regret their choice:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-new-eu-leave-regret-remain-yougov-times-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html

 

These number will likely increase once the true immediate impact of Brexit is known (long term it's possible it will improve but it will take years to just recover).

 

What I (& others) are suggesting is that we need to avoid repeating the mistakes of Brexit:

Firstly (before another Indy referendum) we need as transparent a debate as possible around the impacts (both positive & negative) of Independence.

This will at least allow the voters to make an informed choice and everyone will be better placed to predict the impact should 'Yes' win.

 

What seems increasingly clear from reading this thread is that the more prolific pro-indy supporters appear to want to suppress these detailed discussions.

Instead they prefer to label anyone asking questions as 'too frightened' or 'Not Scottish', engage in 'whatabootery' deflection or just ignore the points all together.

I find it difficult to understand that people who seem so convinced that Indy is the correct option for the country aren't prepared to engage in discussion around the economic consequences.

  

 

Good post, fully agree. If someone can prove to me that we would be better off in an Indy Scotland with real evidence then I would consider it as an option. All evidence points to the fact we wouldn't be as well off as we are now and nationalists don't want to talk about it, not even the people at the top. Not much of a debate operating in an echo chamber. 

[Space Mackerel]

27 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

Good post, fully agree. If someone can prove to me that we would be better off in an Indy Scotland with real evidence then I would consider it as an option. All evidence points to the fact we wouldn't be as well off as we are now and nationalists don't want to talk about it, not even the people at the top. Not much of a debate operating in an echo chamber. 

 

When you mean better off, you mean everyone becomes an instant millionaire? Streets are paved with gold like Dick Whittington believed in? 

 

Whats your definition of “better off?”

[Roxy Hearts]

57 minutes ago, Doogz said:

 

Nope!

Unfortunately with Brexit a lot of people were gullible enough to believe the lies of Farage, Gove, Johnson etc. around what a wonderful place post-Brexit Britain would become.

As the negotiations continue and the reality is becoming clearer a lot of these people now regret their choice:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-new-eu-leave-regret-remain-yougov-times-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html

 

These number will likely increase once the true immediate impact of Brexit is known (long term it's possible it will improve but it will take years to just recover).

 

What I (& others) are suggesting is that we need to avoid repeating the mistakes of Brexit:

Firstly (before another Indy referendum) we need as transparent a debate as possible around the impacts (both positive & negative) of Independence.

This will at least allow the voters to make an informed choice and everyone will be better placed to predict the impact should 'Yes' win.

 

What seems increasingly clear from reading this thread is that the more prolific pro-indy supporters appear to want to suppress these detailed discussions.

Instead they prefer to label anyone asking questions as 'too frightened' or 'Not Scottish', engage in 'whatabootery' deflection or just ignore the points all together.

I find it difficult to understand that people who seem so convinced that Indy is the correct option for the country aren't prepared to engage in discussion around the economic consequences.

  

How can we fully know the Scottish economy without Westminster opening the books? All we get is analysis and guesswork all aimed at making it look bad. 

[Roxy Hearts]

57 minutes ago, Doogz said:

 

Nope!

Unfortunately with Brexit a lot of people were gullible enough to believe the lies of Farage, Gove, Johnson etc. around what a wonderful place post-Brexit Britain would become.

As the negotiations continue and the reality is becoming clearer a lot of these people now regret their choice:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-new-eu-leave-regret-remain-yougov-times-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html

 

These number will likely increase once the true immediate impact of Brexit is known (long term it's possible it will improve but it will take years to just recover).

 

What I (& others) are suggesting is that we need to avoid repeating the mistakes of Brexit:

Firstly (before another Indy referendum) we need as transparent a debate as possible around the impacts (both positive & negative) of Independence.

This will at least allow the voters to make an informed choice and everyone will be better placed to predict the impact should 'Yes' win.

 

What seems increasingly clear from reading this thread is that the more prolific pro-indy supporters appear to want to suppress these detailed discussions.

Instead they prefer to label anyone asking questions as 'too frightened' or 'Not Scottish', engage in 'whatabootery' deflection or just ignore the points all together.

I find it difficult to understand that people who seem so convinced that Indy is the correct option for the country aren't prepared to engage in discussion around the economic consequences.

  

How can we fully know the Scottish economy without Westminster opening the books? All we get is analysis and guesswork all aimed at making it look bad. 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Doogz said:

 

Nope!

Unfortunately with Brexit a lot of people were gullible enough to believe the lies of Farage, Gove, Johnson etc. around what a wonderful place post-Brexit Britain would become.

As the negotiations continue and the reality is becoming clearer a lot of these people now regret their choice:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-new-eu-leave-regret-remain-yougov-times-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html

 

These number will likely increase once the true immediate impact of Brexit is known (long term it's possible it will improve but it will take years to just recover).

 

What I (& others) are suggesting is that we need to avoid repeating the mistakes of Brexit:

Firstly (before another Indy referendum) we need as transparent a debate as possible around the impacts (both positive & negative) of Independence.

This will at least allow the voters to make an informed choice and everyone will be better placed to predict the impact should 'Yes' win.

 

What seems increasingly clear from reading this thread is that the more prolific pro-indy supporters appear to want to suppress these detailed discussions.

Instead they prefer to label anyone asking questions as 'too frightened' or 'Not Scottish', engage in 'whatabootery' deflection or just ignore the points all together.

I find it difficult to understand that people who seem so convinced that Indy is the correct option for the country aren't prepared to engage in discussion around the economic consequences.

  

The English still want brexit even though some of it was exposed as lies. 

We were lied to, by both sides it has to be said, but we still have people who would vote No again cos they’re even more frightened than they were the first time. 

The English at least have balls. 

Weve been shown up to be nothing more than wind and pish. 

[Doogz]

29 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

How can we fully know the Scottish economy without Westminster opening the books? All we get is analysis and guesswork all aimed at making it look bad. 

 

Okay, I'm fairly certain we've discussed this before but the options are:

- Use the GERS figures which are the best currently available

- Get more accurate information (The SNP have had over a decade in power at Holyrood to progress this but I can't even see where they've attempted to find a solution to this)

- Take a leap of faith.

 

[Doogz]

19 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

The English still want brexit even though some of it was exposed as lies. 

We were lied to, by both sides it has to be said, but we still have people who would vote No again cos they’re even more frightened than they were the first time. 

The English at least have balls. 

Weve been shown up to be nothing more than wind and pish. 

I'm not convinced the English do still want Brexit - did you look at the article I linked?
Regardless, when Brexit comes along and the English realise they're worse off they can at least comfort themselves by looking down and admiring their balls!

 

[shaun.lawson]

4 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

No nation likes the idea of independence for any of its constituent parts. See the American civil war (it was not about freeing slaves!), see the Biafran war, see Spain and Catalonia. And so on and so on. Yet as has been said the hated Westminster oppressors held a referendum which gave Scotland the chance to vote for it rather than fight for it. 

 

Correct. It's almost unheard of nowadays for a government to grant part of its territorial jurisdiction a peaceful vote to secede (and with a threshold of just 50% + 1). Yet Scotland still voted No.

 

3 hours ago, jumpship said:

Looks like the English have Guts.

 

No. The English are ****ing stupid. The Scots, by contrast, voted with considerable wisdom, as they did again at the EU referendum (albeit in disappointingly low numbers).

 

Why do I think the Scots voted wisely in 2014? Because the case for independence had not been made. We know it hadn't been made because the independence campaign wanted a freaking currency union with the country it wanted to separate from! Ludicrous - and the ultimate sign that even Salmond et al didn't think Scotland was economically ready to go it alone. 

 

And we also know it hadn't been made because, as the results came in, commentators spoke of "natural Yes territory" and "natural No territory". On what planet is viable, sustainable independence a left v right, poor v rich, young v old issue? It's about everyone FFS. Taking everyone forwards together through force of argument, reason and yes, patriotism too.

 

Ever since the Brexit vote, British politics has been plunged into ongoing fiasco. The country is horribly split - and whatever happens now, there'll be hell to pay. Either many millions are going to feel betrayed, or many other millions are going to feel unwelcome in their own country.

 

Congratulating the English for engineering this state of affairs is nuts. Brexit is the undefined negotiated by the unprepared seeking the unspecified and undeliverable for the uninformed. The lesson for any second independence campaign has to be: for God's sake, be honest with the public. Plenty more detail and nuance; plenty less dogma and nonsense.

Edited June 6, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[jack D and coke]

16 minutes ago, Doogz said:

I'm not convinced the English do still want Brexit - did you look at the article I linked?
Regardless, when Brexit comes along and the English realise they're worse off they can at least comfort themselves by looking down and admiring their balls!

 

They’ve said in certain polls they’d be happy to see Scotland go to attain brexit. 

We might get indy when they decide.

They decide everything else for us I suppose they might as well show us the door as well seeing as we’re too feard??‍♂️

[Doogz]

9 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

They’ve said in certain polls they’d be happy to see Scotland go to attain brexit. 

We might get indy when they decide.

They decide everything else for us I suppose they might as well show us the door as well seeing as we’re too feard??‍♂️

 

Which polls ? Seems an odd thing for them to want as they're getting Brexit regardless of the situation on Scottish independence.

btw - you're doing a great job of proving what I said in my earlier post by continually resorting to the "Too Frightened" argument and ignoring the information in the article I linked.

[Pans Jambo]

What I am hearing is:

 

We will put up with power and wealth being sucked out of our country and allow English voters to dictate our governments along with all the pish that Westminster shower us in for another 300 years (Austerity, Food Banks, Illegal Wars (& then ignore the damaged servicemen who return from said wars so they need to go to charities to get help), NHS Privatisation, Brexit, Erosion of Rights, Erosion of pay, Theft of your Pension, Retirement age rising, Taken out of the ECHR, Huge Swathes of  Scottish land owned by the foreign super-rich for their own Profit & not for local communies, Nuclear Weapons, Corruption (like selling off RBS shares on the cheap to your wealthy pals so they can profit even more & the tax payer make huge losses), Being in the only country on the planet with oil that's worth HeeHaw and has been running out for 40 years (even though they keep discovering new fields & Diesel is now £1.30/litre and rising), Cover-ups, Scandals, Zero Hour Contracts, Homelessness on the Rise, House prices too expensive due to rip-off land owners, Billions of unclaimed taxation being allowed to be stored in off-shore accounts, Continual Lies etc.). I am willing to turn a blind eye to all of that as long as I maintain my current financial position.

 

Yeah, I agree with Jack D...wind & pish!

 

Every No voter to a man.

 

[Pans Jambo]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

No nation likes the idea of independence for any of its constituent parts. See the American civil war (it was not about freeing slaves!), see the Biafran war, see Spain and Catalonia. And so on and so on. Yet as has been said the hated Westminster oppressors held a referendum which gave Scotland the chance to vote for it rather than fight for it. 

Also, Catalonia is by far the wealthiest part of Spain and as such the Spanish government would do whatever they could to maintain power there (like use militant police to batter auld women for example).

[jack D and coke]

37 minutes ago, Doogz said:

 

Which polls ? Seems an odd thing for them to want as they're getting Brexit regardless of the situation on Scottish independence.

btw - you're doing a great job of proving what I said in my earlier post by continually resorting to the "Too Frightened" argument and ignoring the information in the article I linked.

There was a poll that because the SNP were angling for indyref 2 because of brexit they said they’d be happy to lose Scotland to make sure they gained their brexit. They said they’d actually rather keep Gibraltar than Scotland. So much love for us  

I honestly believe that Scotland will get indy when they decide and depending how bad brexit hits them and they see (allegedly) more money per head coming up here well I don’t think it’ll be too long till we’re either 1. Emptied or 2. See our pocket money seriously cut. 

All will still vote No again too given the chance. Nothing will convince you. 

Ive got visions of an indy Scotland where loads of us will all be like those Celtic clowns that come to Tynecastle in future, all waving another countries flag  

Wont be able to slag them anymore  

 

[Doogz]

26 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

There was a poll that because the SNP were angling for indyref 2 because of brexit they said they’d be happy to lose Scotland to make sure they gained their brexit. They said they’d actually rather keep Gibraltar than Scotland. So much love for us  

 

A poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland with a leading question:
"which three territories or countries they would prefer to ‘lose’ as result of leaving the EU – Scotland, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar."
No option to respond with "I don't want Brexit" or "I'm not prepared to lose any of these for Brexit"
A poll designed purely so that the Indy supports could try and argue "See England want rid of us".

 

26 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I honestly believe that Scotland will get indy when they decide and depending how bad brexit hits them and they see (allegedly) more money per head coming up here well I don’t think it’ll be too long till we’re either 1. Emptied or 2. See our pocket money seriously cut. 

All will still vote No again too given the chance. Nothing will convince you. 

 

So far all your arguments are around your beliefs and visions - you've offered precisely nothing of substance to try and convince me one way or the other.

[jack D and coke]

23 minutes ago, Doogz said:

 

A poll commissioned by Wings over Scotland with a leading question:
"which three territories or countries they would prefer to ‘lose’ as result of leaving the EU – Scotland, Northern Ireland or Gibraltar."
No option to respond with "I don't want Brexit" or "I'm not prepared to lose any of these for Brexit"
A poll designed purely so that the Indy supports could try and argue "See England want rid of us".

 

 

So far all your arguments are around your beliefs and visions - you've offered precisely nothing of substance to try and convince me one way or the other.

Doogz you wouldn’t be convinced. 

I’m sure even if I could make a case for wealth and riches you’d still find an excuse due to currency or something. If you can’t see the fear they use in these things then nothing anybody could say would ever convince you. 

Have a good day pal??

[Doogz]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Doogz you wouldn’t be convinced. 

 

I could be - but I need fact's and figures, that's just the type of person I am.  Some people are naturally more cautious than others and often that increases as we age.  

The accusation of being "too scared" is rather tiresome - prudence is supposed to be a Scottish trait after all.

FWIW I'd happily go with Indy even if it had a small negative impact on me financially, as long as I could be convinced that the other benefits were worth it.

 

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I’m sure even if I could make a case for wealth and riches you’d still find an excuse due to currency or something.

Yeah, your quite correct as I consider the currency issue is massive. The volatility of a new currency and the impact this could have to savings & pensions etc.  has to be considered.

 

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

If you can’t see the fear they use in these things then nothing anybody could say would ever convince you. 

Likewise, I could accuse you of being easily manipulated regarding that Wings poll - they went with a leading question to try and argue the case that 'England want rid of us' and you came on here to claim just that.

 

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Have a good day pal??

 You too sir !

[jumpship]

4 hours ago, Doogz said:

 

Okay, I'm fairly certain we've discussed this before but the options are:

- Use the GERS figures which are the best currently available

- Get more accurate information (The SNP have had over a decade in power at Holyrood to progress this but I can't even see where they've attempted to find a solution to this)

- Take a leap of faith.

 

2013....

 

An Electoral Commission report earlier this year recommended both sides of the debate hold talks and agree a "joint position", so that voters could see agreed information about what would follow the referendum, whether it is a Yes or No vote.

The Scottish Government have been calling for such discussions but, to date, the UK Government have rejected such talks.

 

 

It's Westminster that don't want the full facts given to the public. This was well reported at the time. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by jumpship

[Thunderstruck]

17 minutes ago, jumpship said:

2013....

 

An Electoral Commission report earlier this year recommended both sides of the debate hold talks and agree a "joint position", so that voters could see agreed information about what would follow the referendum, whether it is a Yes or No vote.

The Scottish Government have been calling for such discussions but, to date, the UK Government have rejected such talks.

 

 

It's Westminster that don't want the full facts given to the public. This was well reported at the time. 

 

2013 is now history.

 

I suggest that it has been established that GERS is as good a view of Scotland’s finances as is possible. 

 

It would be of interest to know what is claimed to now be beyond our view. 

 

Sounds to to me like more and desperate moving of goalposts. It would take an Aladdin’s cave of hidden loot to turn the Cuts Commission into a barely optimistic view. 

 

 

[jack D and coke]

2 hours ago, Doogz said:

 

I could be - but I need fact's and figures, that's just the type of person I am.  Some people are naturally more cautious than others and often that increases as we age.  

The accusation of being "too scared" is rather tiresome - prudence is supposed to be a Scottish trait after all.

FWIW I'd happily go with Indy even if it had a small negative impact on me financially, as long as I could be convinced that the other benefits were worth it.

 

Yeah, your quite correct as I consider the currency issue is massive. The volatility of a new currency and the impact this could have to savings & pensions etc.  has to be considered.

 

Likewise, I could accuse you of being easily manipulated regarding that Wings poll - they went with a leading question to try and argue the case that 'England want rid of us' and you came on here to claim just that.

 

 You too sir !

As a matter of interest Doogz see if there was another indyref and the only options were...

1. Yes independence or

2. No and close the Scottish Parliament down for good and forever and accept Scotland is just a region ie North Britain

Im interested to know what you’d vote? 

[Doogz]

29 minutes ago, jumpship said:

2013....

 

An Electoral Commission report earlier this year recommended both sides of the debate hold talks and agree a "joint position", so that voters could see agreed information about what would follow the referendum, whether it is a Yes or No vote.

The Scottish Government have been calling for such discussions but, to date, the UK Government have rejected such talks.

 

 

It's Westminster that don't want the full facts given to the public. This was well reported at the time. 

 

This was more in relation to how the exit/negotiations process would take place rather forecasting how the economy could look based on GERS figures which was what I was discussing.

 

 

"5.41 In the event of a ‘Yes’ vote, there would be a range of issues to be
resolved within the UK and internationally about the terms of independence.
Although we would not expect the terms of independence to be agreed
between the two governments before the vote, clarity about how the terms of
independence will be decided would help voters understand how the
competing claims made by referendum campaigners before the referendum
will be resolved.
5.42 We recommend that the UK and Scottish Governments should
clarify what process will follow the referendum in sufficient detail to
inform people what will happen if most voters vote ‘Yes’ and what will
happen if most voters vote ‘No’.
5.43 We recommend that both Governments should agree a joint position, if
possible, so that voters have access to agreed information about what would
follow the referendum. The alternative - two different explanations - could
cause confusion for voters rather than make things clearer.
5.44 This information would help voters understand what would happen after
the referendum, whatever the outcome, and how any competing claims made
about independence during the campaigns would be resolved."

 

I think there should be a general agreement around this stuff too - but the scope of it will be limited.

 

 

[Doogz]

3 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

As a matter of interest Doogz see if there was another indyref and the only options were...

1. Yes independence or

2. No and close the Scottish Parliament down for good and forever and accept Scotland is just a region ie North Britain

Im interested to know what you’d vote? 

 

If that's my only 2 options (I see you've picked up on the Wings trick of asking leading questions with limited answers) and without any additional information being available I'd have to take option 2 as the impact around things like the economy, currency and trade is minimal. You would also save money by getting rid of Holyrood - but my preference (had it been an option) would be to keep it as it can make a positive impact in Scotland.

 

[Space Mackerel]

29 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

As a matter of interest Doogz see if there was another indyref and the only options were...

1. Yes independence or

2. No and close the Scottish Parliament down for good and forever and accept Scotland is just a region ie North Britain

Im interested to know what you’d vote? 

 

Ask him if he, would given a hypothetical state of affairs and Scotland being independent at this moment in time say, join with Westminster and have only 59 Scottish MP’s to 550 ish English ones? 

Also, all these 550 English Mp’s get ALL say in how every aspect of your economy runs etc and the people you vote in don’t make a blind bit of difference. 

 

Ask him if would vote in a referendum to join that set up? 

[Thunderstruck]

46 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

As a matter of interest Doogz see if there was another indyref and the only options were...

1. Yes independence or

2. No and close the Scottish Parliament down for good and forever and accept Scotland is just a region ie North Britain

Im interested to know what you’d vote? 

 

It’s 2 for me but close it and bring back truly Regional Government. That way Glasgow, the wider Central Belt, Edinburgh, the North East, the Highlands, the Islands and the Borders get to manage their own economies to the advantage of local priorities and demands. 

 

That, incidentally, is true devolution and a model being developed in England through localisation. The Tories May be many things but they are the party of small government and devolution - the antithesis of the current Scottish Government which is eroding local governance in favour of centralisation of powers. 

 

The current independence model replaces the economic powerhouse of London with the needy Greater Glasgow - a cuckoo in the economic nest. That is something evident even in the current model. 

[jack D and coke]

1 hour ago, Doogz said:

 

If that's my only 2 options (I see you've picked up on the Wings trick of asking leading questions with limited answers) and without any additional information being available I'd have to take option 2 as the impact around things like the economy, currency and trade is minimal. You would also save money by getting rid of Holyrood - but my preference (had it been an option) would be to keep it as it can make a positive impact in Scotland.

 

It’s meant to have limited answers I’m not trying to catch you out, It’s one way or the other, close it or stand on our own two feet. 

You say you’d like a 3rd option, is that not having your cake and eating it? 

Surely you can’t have it both ways? 

This is one of the problems for me it’s creating this halfway house that won’t ever satisfy anyone. We have to go it alone or frankly STFU imo. 

You answered how I think unionist thinkers would tbh. No offence intended pal. 

[jack D and coke]

42 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Ask him if he, would given a hypothetical state of affairs and Scotland being independent at this moment in time say, join with Westminster and have only 59 Scottish MP’s to 550 ish English ones? 

Also, all these 550 English Mp’s get ALL say in how every aspect of your economy runs etc and the people you vote in don’t make a blind bit of difference. 

 

Ask him if would vote in a referendum to join that set up? 

Nobody would of course. You’d have to be insane. 

[Space Mackerel]

7 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Nobody would of course. You’d have to be insane. 

 

Ergo, you would have to be insane to remain it?

[jack D and coke]

11 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Ergo, you would have to be insane to remain it?

Well it depends if you think they’ll do a better job or not.

Which obviously they think they do or it would be a no brainer. 

 

[jack D and coke]

21 minutes ago, Lord BJ said:

That’s quite a interesting question

I was a No voter last time, however, if that was the question I would have been a yes voter.

 

 

 

Yeah it was another poster who first mentioned it a while back and it’s stuck with me that it’s maybe the question people need put to them. All this fannying about isn’t doing anybody any good. 

Do you want to govern or do you want governed, simples. 

[Roxy Hearts]

10 hours ago, Doogz said:

 

Okay, I'm fairly certain we've discussed this before but the options are:

- Use the GERS figures which are the best currently available

- Get more accurate information (The SNP have had over a decade in power at Holyrood to progress this but I can't even see where they've attempted to find a solution to this)

- Take a leap of faith.

 

The GERS figures are manipulated Doogz. Why won't WM just tell us? What are they hiding? 

[Roxy Hearts]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah it was another poster who first mentioned it a while back and it’s stuck with me that it’s maybe the question people need put to them. All this fannying about isn’t doing anybody any good. 

Do you want to govern or do you want governed, simples. 

That's it JDC. Just govern ourselves. A lot of folk have no faith in the people living here or they would accept their own governance. I don't need any guarantees it would work, the whole point is to work together to make it work. 

[Space Mackerel]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Yeah it was another poster who first mentioned it a while back and it’s stuck with me that it’s maybe the question people need put to them. All this fannying about isn’t doing anybody any good. 

Do you want to govern or do you want governed, simples. 

 

Most level headed sane normal heid screwed on type of people would govern themselves. Only the complete windae lickers would want another country making rules and economic policy up by another foreign power.

[Dawnrazor]

34 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Most level headed sane normal heid screwed on type of people would govern themselves. Only the complete windae lickers would want another country making rules and economic policy up by another foreign power.

So you want to leave the EU then? 

[Space Mackerel]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

So you want to leave the EU then? 

 

Name one single, solitary, individual EU law that directly affects your life?

[Dawnrazor]

4 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Name one single, solitary, individual EU law that directly affects your life?

Sorry, how stupid of me to expect you to answer a question. 

[Space Mackerel]

9 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Sorry, how stupid of me to expect you to answer a question. 

 

I think my answer satisfied your question.

 

What about my question then?

 

One law please?

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

I think my answer satisfied your question.

 

What about my question then?

 

One law please?

Why are we in it then? 

If it doesn't effect us you surly must be in favor of leaving? 

[Space Mackerel]

2 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Why are we in it then? 

If it doesn't effect us you surly must be in favor of leaving? 

 

How silly of me to engage....

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

How silly of me to engage....

So answer my questions then. 

[Geoff the Mince]

2 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

How silly of me to engage....

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

So answer my questions then. 

 

No point, you live in England and don't have a vote on the constitutional matters up here.

 

 

[Dawnrazor]

10 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

No point, you live in England and don't have a vote on the constitutional matters up here.

 

 

What a delightfully straight person who answers questions directly you are 

Just answer my two very simple question........ I dare you!!! 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Dawnrazor

[Trapper John McIntyre]

3 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What a Feckin trumpet you are 

Just answer my two very simple question........ I dare you!!! 

 

Be careful, mate. The Mods have a habit of nailing anyone who insults with terms like that the darling of the Nat JKB tendency.

 

 

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Trapper John McIntyre said:

 

Be careful, mate. The Mods have a habit of nailing anyone who insults with terms like that the darling of the Nat JKB tendency.

 

 

I apologise. 

[Space Mackerel]

8 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What a Feckin trumpet you are 

Just answer my two very simple question........ I dare you!!! 

 

Its OK pal, Ive been called a lot worse   Ignore Trappers paranoia.

 

What were your 2 questions? I thought you only asked one about being in the EU which from my answer says I would and I voted to Remain.

 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Space Mackerel said:

 

Its OK pal, Ive been called a lot worse   Ignore Trappers paranoia.

 

What were your 2 questions? I thought you only asked one about being in the EU which from my answer says I would and I voted to Remain.

 

Why? 

If no eu laws effect us why are you in favour of staying? 

[Space Mackerel]

Just now, Dawnrazor said:

Why? 

If no eu laws effect us why are you in favour of staying? 

 

Because its good for trade, brings up living standards and stops European countries smashing shit out of each other, see war in Kosovo recently. 

[Dawnrazor]

9 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Because its good for trade, brings up living standards and stops European countries smashing shit out of each other, see war in Kosovo recently. 

Fair enough reasons, doesn't really answer the point of Laws though. 

But at least you answered... finally, you could have answered right away though, all the smart arsed, snidey, pointless deflection and avoidance does make you look a complete and utter knob. 

I make a living repairing damage done to the uplands caused by CAP so EU laws effect directly. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by Dawnrazor

[Unknown user]

12 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

Why? 

If no eu laws effect us why are you in favour of staying? 

Tariff free access to a market of 400+ million people is pretty attractive in itself to be fair

[Dawnrazor]

1 minute ago, Smithee said:

Tariff free access to a market of 400+ million people is pretty attractive in itself to be fair

And the rest of the world?