Even More SNP Nonsense

[AlphonseCapone]

14 hours ago, pablo said:

 

But in this part of Scotland, we're predominately Anglo Saxons who have never spoken Gaelic. So what's it got to do with us ?

 

Not been in here for a while, nothings changed

 

The above post is very simplistic and not very accurate. Scots are originally from Gaels and Picts tribes with plenty of inter-mixing there, at that point the majority of the country spoke in Celtic family of languages. Then the Britons and Angles came along later, mainly South East of Scotland and eventually South West which is when old English came along and eventually developed into Scots. There is also a very high proportion of viking DNA in Scottish people compared to anywhere else outside Scandinavia, Ireland too. Which makes sense. 

 

Anyway, when it comes to genetics saying a person is predominately anything is a misnomer. But it's pretty irrelevant to politics or should be. 

 

As you all were. 

[Space Mackerel]

4 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

What's wrong with that, like?

 

Porridge and shortbread for you, I assume, followed by a half of McEwens Export from a dimple glass whilst whistling 'Donald whaurs yer troosers'.

 

You really are a strange wee man, SM. No wonder Kickback treats you with general contempt amd derision.

 

 

Don't blame my choice of holiday to avoid drunken British bams and cuisine. When I go abroad, I like to see the place Im visiting and its people. I get enough of they arseholes here in Edinburgh

[Seymour M Hersh]

4 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Englishman in Uruguay lecturing Jocks about Jockland.

 

 

There is no country on this planet where snoreson will not lecture, patronise and generally behave like it's some sort of superior being to the indigenous population! 

[shaun.lawson]

53 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

There is no country on this planet where snoreson will not lecture, patronise and generally behave like it's some sort of superior being to the indigenous population! 

 

Strange how others who aren't convulsed by pathological hatred of the SNP agreed with me then, huh?  

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Don't blame my choice of holiday to avoid drunken British bams and cuisine. When I go abroad, I like to see the place Im visiting and its people. I get enough of they arseholes here in Edinburgh

[shaun.lawson]

1 hour ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Don't blame my choice of holiday to avoid drunken British bams and cuisine. When I go abroad, I like to see the place Im visiting and its people. I get enough of they arseholes here in Edinburgh

 

 

[Seymour M Hersh]

51 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Strange how others who aren't convulsed by pathological hatred of the SNP agreed with me then, huh?  

 

Well you know what they say snoreson. You can fool some of the people.....................

[shaun.lawson]

2 minutes ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

Well you know what they say snoreson. You can fool some of the people.....................

 

Bit like how the Tories fool you.  

[Governor Tarkin]

2 hours ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

Don't blame my choice of holiday to avoid drunken British bams and cuisine. When I go abroad, I like to see the place Im visiting and its people. I get enough of they arseholes here in Edinburgh

 

[Thunderstruck]

10 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Good lord.

 

The SNP have made significant mistakes; all governments do. Yet they've done a good job overall. I had no truck at all with their bonkers currency union ideas during the referendum campaign - but their staying in office for so long hasn't just been about keeping independence supporters happy. Not a bit of it.

 

The alternatives to the SNP are a wolf in sheep's clothing whose support rose because it coveted the bigot vote last year; a joke, dead party; and a branch office which elected someone who isn't even a household name in his own household as leader. 

 

The main Westminster parties should ask themselves how on Earth they all fell into such disrepair to begin with. Congratulations to the SNP on taking advantage of that. Their focus is on Scotland and Scotland alone; the others just don't do that.

 

I can only suggest that you adhere to a particularly undemanding set of standards if you think that the SNP are “doing a good job overall”.

 

Education, Health, Transport, Local Government and, yes, Policing - all in the “really must do a lot better” category and presided over by Ministers who display levels of competence that make Diane Abbott appear lucid by comparison. 

 

As for your “their focus is on Scotland and Scotland alone”  - what nonsense, their focus is on independence and that alone with every other activity subordinated to that aim; it is their raison d’etre as their supporters in these pages will concede. Your statement therefore suggests that independence is best for Scotland - the majority opinion in Scotland disagrees. 

 

They remain in power thanks to FPTP and the split of opposition between the other parties. The percentage of the electorate that forms their core vote peaked in 2011 and has been on the decline since. 

 

Finally, regarding your reference to “the bigot vote”. For you, that is cheap and displays a lack of understanding of many real issues. 

 

These bigots...

Would they be the farmers left waiting for farm payments?

Would they be those in the NE who felt betrayed by lack of support in the face of economic crisis?

Would they be parents concerned at dwindling standards and resources in schools?

Would they be the nurses forced to sleep in their cars at the new flagship hospital?

Would they be shipyard workers on the Clyde?

Would they be part of the majority in Scotland who want nothing to do with independence and are tired with everything being about it. 

 

Please tell me that you are not conflating “bigot” with the above or, indeed, with ordinary voters who have different political opinions to yourself. 

 

Perhaps, instead,  they are individuals such as the members of the Kilwinning and District Orange Lodge?

 

Would it be safe to assume that your definition of bigot doesn’t extend to include those such as the members of the Coatbridge Republican Flute Band?

 

There are bigots on both sides of the equation; if (as seems to be the case) their votes are “coveted” by polar opposites, we are on a dangerous road to travel. 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Thunderstruck

[Ulysses]

On 5/17/2018 at 19:34, Space Mackerel said:

 

I get my framing done down Gorgie Road way, Mike is brilliant and a proper jambo.

 

http://www.mcraeframing.co.uk/

 

 

No good for me, unfortunately.  I'm gonna have to get something rolled up in a tube and sent here.  I've dropped him a line. 

 

Tapadh leat. 

[Sraman]

1 hour ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I can only suggest that you adhere to a particularly undemanding set of standards if you think that the SNP are “doing a good job overall”.

 

Education, Health, Transport, Local Government and, yes, Policing - all in the “really must do a lot better” category and presided over by Ministers who display levels of competence that make Diane Abbott appear lucid by comparison. 

 

As for your “their focus is on Scotland and Scotland alone”  - what nonsense, their focus is on independence and that alone with every other activity subordinated to that aim; it is their raison d’etre as their supporters in these pages will concede. Your statement therefore suggests that independence is best for Scotland - the majority opinion in Scotland disagrees. 

 

They remain in power thanks to FPTP and the split of opposition between the other parties. The percentage of the electorate that forms their core vote peaked in 2011 and has been on the decline since. 

 

Finally, regarding your reference to “the bigot vote”. For you, that is cheap and displays a lack of understanding of many real issues. 

 

These bigots...

Would they be the farmers left waiting for farm payments?

Would they be those in the NE who felt betrayed by lack of support in the face of economic crisis?

Would they be parents concerned at dwindling standards and resources in schools?

Would they be the nurses forced to sleep in their cars at the new flagship hospital?

Would they be shipyard workers on the Clyde?

Would they be part of the majority in Scotland who want nothing to do with independence and are tired with everything being about it. 

 

Please tell me that you are not conflating “bigot” with the above or, indeed, with ordinary voters who have different political opinions to yourself. 

 

Perhaps, instead,  they are individuals such as the members of the Kilwinning and District Orange Lodge?

 

Would it be safe to assume that your definition of bigot doesn’t extend to include those such as the members of the Coatbridge Republican Flute Band?

 

There are bigots on both sides of the equation; if (as seems to be the case) their votes are “coveted” by polar opposites, we are on a dangerous road to travel. 

 

 

 

An economic crisis in the North East. Is this to do with oil jobs going? If it is, Westminster is responsible for our oil. What have they done to alleviate the situation?

[shaun.lawson]

4 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I can only suggest that you adhere to a particularly undemanding set of standards if you think that the SNP are “doing a good job overall”.

 

Education, Health, Transport, Local Government and, yes, Policing - all in the “really must do a lot better” category and presided over by Ministers who display levels of competence that make Diane Abbott appear lucid by comparison. 

 

As for your “their focus is on Scotland and Scotland alone”  - what nonsense, their focus is on independence and that alone with every other activity subordinated to that aim; it is their raison d’etre as their supporters in these pages will concede. Your statement therefore suggests that independence is best for Scotland - the majority opinion in Scotland disagrees. 

 

No. Gradualism requires them to show competence in government - which for the most part, with exceptions, they've done. Otherwise, how on Earth do you account for non-independence supporters voting SNP at various elections? Do you know how I view the SNP? More or less as a 2010s version of New Labour: very similar approach and policies, very similar all things to all people big tent, no stupid foreign interventions messing it all up.

 

Quote

 

They remain in power thanks to FPTP and the split of opposition between the other parties. The percentage of the electorate that forms their core vote peaked in 2011 and has been on the decline since. 

 

The voting system at Scottish elections is, of course, mixed. It is much fairer than at Westminster but still unsatisfactory - and it was deliberately designed in such a way to make it impossible for the SNP to dominate, or get anywhere near dominating.

 

Yet remarkably, and to their eternal credit, the SNP have dominated regardless. At the most recent Scottish elections, they achieved almost 47% in the constituency vote, almost 42% in the regional vote. The second party, Davidson's "resurgent" Tories, accrued 22% and 23% respectively. Almost 20 points ahead in one vote, almost 25 points ahead in the other is, after almost a decade in office, astonishing dominance from a so-called "single issue party". 

 

Quote

 

Finally, regarding your reference to “the bigot vote”. For you, that is cheap and displays a lack of understanding of many real issues. 

 

These bigots...

Would they be the farmers left waiting for farm payments?

Would they be those in the NE who felt betrayed by lack of support in the face of economic crisis?

Would they be parents concerned at dwindling standards and resources in schools?

Would they be the nurses forced to sleep in their cars at the new flagship hospital?

Would they be shipyard workers on the Clyde?

Would they be part of the majority in Scotland who want nothing to do with independence and are tired with everything being about it. 

 

Please tell me that you are not conflating “bigot” with the above or, indeed, with ordinary voters who have different political opinions to yourself.

 

Apart from your crucial final point about not supporting independence, how on God's good Earth does voting Tory help any of these people? "I'm fed up with the SNP, so I'm going to set myself on fire to prove a point".

 

The Tories, lest we forget, are so disgusting that they require mothers with more than two children to prove they were raped if they want to receive child tax credits. Rape Clause Ruth. Those are her and their values.

 

Because Labour have been such a mess in Scotland for so long - because Corbyn's Labour have lacked a properly distinctive stance on either independence or Brexit - last year's general election boiled down considerably to independence supporters v unionists, SNP v Tory. The circumstances required Davidson to go after the more hardcore amongst the latter, and she used various dog whistling tactics to do so. 

 

Amongst many other things (and apologies for the source of this link, but hey ho), what was she doing posing with someone as disgusting as John Buchan? 

 

https://wingsoverscotland.com/ruths-fishy-friends/

Edited May 19, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[Captain Sausage]

10 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

Please tell me that you are not conflating “bigot” with the above or, indeed, with ordinary voters who have different political opinions to yourself. 

 

Good post. It’s become such a calling card of someone who can’t handle others having a difference of political opinion. 

 

Are all SNP voters bigots? Of course not. 

 

Are all labour votors bigots? Of course not. 

 

Are all lib dem votors bigots? Of course not. 

 

Are all conservative votors bigots? According to some, yes. It’s a comical supposition. And always fired off by someone who has lost the argument. 

[jack D and coke]

10 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I can only suggest that you adhere to a particularly undemanding set of standards if you think that the SNP are “doing a good job overall”.

 

Education, Health, Transport, Local Government and, yes, Policing - all in the “really must do a lot better” category and presided over by Ministers who display levels of competence that make Diane Abbott appear lucid by comparison. 

 

As for your “their focus is on Scotland and Scotland alone”  - what nonsense, their focus is on independence and that alone with every other activity subordinated to that aim; it is their raison d’etre as their supporters in these pages will concede. Your statement therefore suggests that independence is best for Scotland - the majority opinion in Scotland disagrees. 

 

They remain in power thanks to FPTP and the split of opposition between the other parties. The percentage of the electorate that forms their core vote peaked in 2011 and has been on the decline since. 

 

Finally, regarding your reference to “the bigot vote”. For you, that is cheap and displays a lack of understanding of many real issues. 

 

These bigots...

Would they be the farmers left waiting for farm payments?

Would they be those in the NE who felt betrayed by lack of support in the face of economic crisis?

Would they be parents concerned at dwindling standards and resources in schools?

Would they be the nurses forced to sleep in their cars at the new flagship hospital?

Would they be shipyard workers on the Clyde?

Would they be part of the majority in Scotland who want nothing to do with independence and are tired with everything being about it. 

 

Please tell me that you are not conflating “bigot” with the above or, indeed, with ordinary voters who have different political opinions to yourself. 

 

Perhaps, instead,  they are individuals such as the members of the Kilwinning and District Orange Lodge?

 

Would it be safe to assume that your definition of bigot doesn’t extend to include those such as the members of the Coatbridge Republican Flute Band?

 

There are bigots on both sides of the equation; if (as seems to be the case) their votes are “coveted” by polar opposites, we are on a dangerous road to travel. 

 

 

Why do you live in this depressing world? I’d hate to feel like this....

I work hard 6-7 days a week a lot of time, not because i have to for the money but cos I’m really busy, all the guys I know are busy with work no matter what it is they’re doing. My daughter is 18 and has just left school with a load of highers and is heading to university as are her friends who are all really intelligent girls who are going places. I see brand new schools everywhere, I see homes being built everywhere, I see a busy and bustling city, maybe getting too busy at times, I’ve used our hospitals and doctors surgeries in the not too distant past and theyve been in the main pretty dam good I just don’t see this depressing outlook you have in this country. What is the matter with you? See how Britain has left the EU, so ****ing what, I’ll live. See if Scotland votes for independence, so ****ing what, see if Scotland votes no again, so ****ing what, I’ll live.  The world will keep turning, the rain will keep pishing down and nothing will really change. I don’t get why people get their pants so wet about this stuff. To compare them Dianne Abbot is truly laughable. 

Mate I hope not, but maybe one day you’ll get something that really is worth worrying about. 

[Thunderstruck]

2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Why do you live in this depressing world? I’d hate to feel like this....

I work hard 6-7 days a week a lot of time, not because i have to for the money but cos I’m really busy, all the guys I know are busy with work no matter what it is they’re doing. My daughter is 18 and has just left school with a load of highers and is heading to university as are her friends who are all really intelligent girls who are going places. I see brand new schools everywhere, I see homes being built everywhere, I see a busy and bustling city, maybe getting too busy at times, I’ve used our hospitals and doctors surgeries in the not too distant past and theyve been in the main pretty dam good I just don’t see this depressing outlook you have in this country. What is the matter with you? See how Britain has left the EU, so ****ing what, I’ll live. See if Scotland votes for independence, so ****ing what, see if Scotland votes no again, so ****ing what, I’ll live.  The world will keep turning, the rain will keep pishing down and nothing will really change. I don’t get why people get their pants so wet about this stuff. To compare them Dianne Abbot is truly laughable. 

Mate I hope not, but maybe one day you’ll get something that really is worth worrying about. 

 

What exactly is that last sentence supposed to mean? 

 

I can happily disagree with others on here and hopefully have a reasoned argument but wishing ill on someone...

[Sraman]

3 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

What exactly is that last sentence supposed to mean? 

 

I can happily disagree with others on here and hopefully have a reasoned argument but wishing ill on someone...

 

 

He didn't wish ill on you. Your lack of understanding kills any reason you think you have once again.

[jack D and coke]

3 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

What exactly is that last sentence supposed to mean? 

 

I can happily disagree with others on here and hopefully have a reasoned argument but wishing ill on someone...

That’s not what I meant apologies. I just meant there’s much more important stuff to be concerned about. 

[Space Mackerel]

16 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

I can only suggest that you adhere to a particularly undemanding set of standards if you think that the SNP are “doing a good job overall”.

 

Education, Health, Transport, Local Government and, yes, Policing - all in the “really must do a lot better” category and presided over by Ministers who display levels of competence that make Diane Abbott appear lucid by comparison. 

 

As for your “their focus is on Scotland and Scotland alone”  - what nonsense, their focus is on independence and that alone with every other activity subordinated to that aim; it is their raison d’etre as their supporters in these pages will concede. Your statement therefore suggests that independence is best for Scotland - the majority opinion in Scotland disagrees. 

 

 

 

 

 

Education, Health, transport, local government and policing are all ran better up here and that’s a cast iron fact according to the stats. I guess you miss all the news on how England and Wales are failing in these sectors. They’re even COPYING Scottish government policies like smoking ban and poly bag tax, they’ll be bringing in minimum pricing on booze too soon, I’ll guarantee that. 

You keep believing the Torys and their Tory press funded lies or keep the head in the sand. 

 

And you’re right, Independence is the main goal, they’re showing they can run the country effectively and on a show string budget administered from London.

[Thunderstruck]

3 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

That’s not what I meant apologies. I just meant there’s much more important stuff to be concerned about. 

 

Cheers. 

[shaun.lawson]

8 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Why do you live in this depressing world? I’d hate to feel like this....

I work hard 6-7 days a week a lot of time, not because i have to for the money but cos I’m really busy, all the guys I know are busy with work no matter what it is they’re doing. My daughter is 18 and has just left school with a load of highers and is heading to university as are her friends who are all really intelligent girls who are going places. I see brand new schools everywhere, I see homes being built everywhere, I see a busy and bustling city, maybe getting too busy at times, I’ve used our hospitals and doctors surgeries in the not too distant past and theyve been in the main pretty dam good I just don’t see this depressing outlook you have in this country. What is the matter with you? See how Britain has left the EU, so ****ing what, I’ll live. See if Scotland votes for independence, so ****ing what, see if Scotland votes no again, so ****ing what, I’ll live.  The world will keep turning, the rain will keep pishing down and nothing will really change. I don’t get why people get their pants so wet about this stuff. To compare them Dianne Abbot is truly laughable. 

Mate I hope not, but maybe one day you’ll get something that really is worth worrying about. 

 

Great post. I don't live in the UK any longer, of course - but if I ever returned, I'd choose Scotland over England, Edinburgh over London, without a moment's hesitation. 

[shaun.lawson]

8 hours ago, houstonjambo said:

 

Good post. It’s become such a calling card of someone who can’t handle others having a difference of political opinion. 

 

Are all SNP voters bigots? Of course not. 

 

Are all labour votors bigots? Of course not. 

 

Are all lib dem votors bigots? Of course not. 

 

Are all conservative votors bigots? According to some, yes. It’s a comical supposition. And always fired off by someone who has lost the argument. 

 

According to, er, no-one. But don't let your failure to comprehend my point get in the way of your strawman. 

[Thunderstruck]

17 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

No. Gradualism requires them to show competence in government - which for the most part, with exceptions, they've done. Otherwise, how on Earth do you account for non-independence supporters voting SNP at various elections? Do you know how I view the SNP? More or less as a 2010s version of New Labour: very similar approach and policies, very similar all things to all people big tent, no stupid foreign interventions messing it all up.

 

 

The voting system at Scottish elections is, of course, mixed. It is much fairer than at Westminster but still unsatisfactory - and it was deliberately designed in such a way to make it impossible for the SNP to dominate, or get anywhere near dominating.

 

Yet remarkably, and to their eternal credit, the SNP have dominated regardless. At the most recent Scottish elections, they achieved almost 47% in the constituency vote, almost 42% in the regional vote. The second party, Davidson's "resurgent" Tories, accrued 22% and 23% respectively. Almost 20 points ahead in one vote, almost 25 points ahead in the other is, after almost a decade in office, astonishing dominance from a so-called "single issue party". 

 

 

Apart from your crucial final point about not supporting independence, how on God's good Earth does voting Tory help any of these people? "I'm fed up with the SNP, so I'm going to set myself on fire to prove a point".

 

The Tories, lest we forget, are so disgusting that they require mothers with more than two children to prove they were raped if they want to receive child tax credits. Rape Clause Ruth. Those are her and their values.

 

Because Labour have been such a mess in Scotland for so long - because Corbyn's Labour have lacked a properly distinctive stance on either independence or Brexit - last year's general election boiled down considerably to independence supporters v unionists, SNP v Tory. The circumstances required Davidson to go after the more hardcore amongst the latter, and she used various dog whistling tactics to do so. 

 

Amongst many other things (and apologies for the source of this link, but hey ho), what was she doing posing with someone as disgusting as John Buchan? 

 

https://wingsoverscotland.com/ruths-fishy-friends/

 

What you neatly avoiding mentioning is that the SNP core support spins about in the low to mid 30s as a percentage of the electorate (as does the Indy level of support). Election turnouts in the 50-60% range favour their higher levels of motivation. Perhaps I should have said “favoured” as we now seem to see an awakening elsewhere and even a willingness to vote tactically. 

 

That change can be attributed to SNP hubris, bolting “Indy” into any issue and to other parties in Scotland getting smarter in the information campaign. We can also add incompetence and deceit (see the ongoing exchanges on the Fracking “ban” or another recent refusal to disclose legal advice).

 

I am am not aware of “No” voters voting SNP in any significant numbers. Perhaps you can assist with a source. 

 

As for competence, I imagine it must be difficult to gauge the effect on everyday life from a point 7,000 miles away but you should be able to read of growing dissatisfaction with what would be underperformance against KPIs elsewhere.  As usual (and we have had a usual suspect resort to this earlier today) the response is whataboutery using the Tories/England as if that is a measure of success. If that is the aim, they have set very low standards and then failed to achieve them. 

 

I note that you have since tried to distance yourself from your earlier comments regarding “bigots” but perhaps you let us know how many of the 323,000 voters who switched to vote Conservative are, in your opinion, bigots that have canine levels of hearing. Might it just be possible that the residue are somewhat less than happy with our ruling party? 

 

[Sraman]

4 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

 

As for competence, I imagine it must be difficult to gauge the effect on everyday life from a point 7,000 miles away but you should be able to read of growing dissatisfaction with what would be underperformance against KPIs elsewhere.  As usual (and we have had a usual suspect resort to this earlier today) the response is whataboutery using the Tories/England as if that is a measure of success. If that is the aim, they have set very low standards and then failed to achieve them. 

 

 

It's not whataboutery when the Tories/England give us pocket money while they hold onto the bank. If you're doing better than the banker you're doing way more than alright.

[Thunderstruck]

1 hour ago, Sraman said:

 

It's not whataboutery when the Tories/England give us pocket money while they hold onto the bank. If you're doing better than the banker you're doing way more than alright.

 

More “pocket money” than England and then there is the range of (largely unused) devolved powers. The finance is there but it seems it is better to stoke grievance than actually make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland.  

 

 

[Sraman]

24 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

More “pocket money” than England and then there is the range of (largely unused) devolved powers. The finance is there but it seems it is better to stoke grievance than actually make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland.  

 

 

 

 

You're the one with the grievance. I'd imagine the extra cash went into setting up systems for using the tax raising powers. Stuff like that doesn't come cheap.

[shaun.lawson]

7 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

What you neatly avoiding mentioning is that the SNP core support spins about in the low to mid 30s as a percentage of the electorate (as does the Indy level of support). Election turnouts in the 50-60% range favour their higher levels of motivation. Perhaps I should have said “favoured” as we now seem to see an awakening elsewhere and even a willingness to vote tactically. 

 

And what you neatly avoid mentioning is that, in a world in which we give outright majorities to UK governments with one in four support from the electorate, the SNP's consistent scores are impressive. In 2015, the Tories got a majority while receiving just 2% more of the electorate than in 1997. That's our ridiculous system for you.

 

Not only that, but the UK is leaving the EU based on 37% of the electorate voting Leave. Meanwhile, 38% of Scots voted Yes in 2014. Yay democracy.

 

Quote

 

That change can be attributed to SNP hubris, bolting “Indy” into any issue and to other parties in Scotland getting smarter in the information campaign. We can also add incompetence and deceit (see the ongoing exchanges on the Fracking “ban” or another recent refusal to disclose legal advice).

 

Yet the SNP still won the Scottish election by 20-25 points. So what "change" are you referring to? Your wishful thinking?

 

Quote

 

I am am not aware of “No” voters voting SNP in any significant numbers. Perhaps you can assist with a source. 

 

This is quite amusing. Exactly how do you think the SNP ended up winning 56 MPs in 2015, destroying Labour's epochal dominance in Scotland? Answer: The Vow, and Cameron's behaviour the morning after the referendum. Labour had already been in trouble; now they completely collapsed, with enormous numbers of supporters heading over to the SNP instead.

 

The SNP would never have become half as strong in the first place without winning so many ex-Labour voters, many of whom opposed independence, some because of the belated new offer from Westminster and/or Brown's speech for the ages.

 

Not only that, but much of the SNP's success has been based on middle class support at Scottish elections (and at the 2015 GE too). When push came to shove, most of those voters chose No in 2014. 

 

Quote

 

As for competence, I imagine it must be difficult to gauge the effect on everyday life from a point 7,000 miles away but you should be able to read of growing dissatisfaction with what would be underperformance against KPIs elsewhere.  As usual (and we have had a usual suspect resort to this earlier today) the response is whataboutery using the Tories/England as if that is a measure of success. If that is the aim, they have set very low standards and then failed to achieve them. 

 

I note that you have since tried to distance yourself from your earlier comments regarding “bigots” but perhaps you let us know how many of the 323,000 voters who switched to vote Conservative are, in your opinion, bigots that have canine levels of hearing. Might it just be possible that the residue are somewhat less than happy with our ruling party? 

 

 

Some of them, sure. However, the examples you gave in your previous post made no sense, because - with the exception of those opposing independence - all the others were about people betrayed by lack of financial help. Nurses, farmers, shipyard workers, etc etc. Do enlighten me as to what voting Tory is going to do for them. 

 

I'm not suggesting for a single moment that all Tory voters are bigots or something! But some are. Some of us will never forget the scenes in Glasgow the day after the referendum - and you can bet your bottom dollar on which party they support. 

 

All in all, you seem convinced there's this incredible, enormous opposition to the evil SNP, just waiting to sweep all before it. There isn't. There's zero electoral evidence of it. And after 11 years of them being in power, the burden of proof is rather on you to explain how that's going to end any time soon.

Edited May 20, 2018 by shaun.lawson

[jack D and coke]

13 hours ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

More “pocket money” than England and then there is the range of (largely unused) devolved powers. The finance is there but it seems it is better to stoke grievance than actually make a difference to the lives of the people of Scotland.  

 

 

We’re so lucky to have England bailing us out all the time and people like you tell how much of a lot of scrounging wanks we all are. You’d think they’d be quite happy to let all the cadging little parts go.

Funny how Britain pillaged almost the entire world and is still debt too. Imagine the nick we’d be in if not for stealing everybody else’s wealth. 

Do you think the picture I’ve posted is right enough too?

 

[JamboX2]

On 19/05/2018 at 02:41, shaun.lawson said:

 

No. Gradualism requires them to show competence in government - which for the most part, with exceptions, they've done. Otherwise, how on Earth do you account for non-independence supporters voting SNP at various elections? Do you know how I view the SNP? More or less as a 2010s version of New Labour: very similar approach and policies, very similar all things to all people big tent, no stupid foreign interventions messing it all up.

 

 

The voting system at Scottish elections is, of course, mixed. It is much fairer than at Westminster but still unsatisfactory - and it was deliberately designed in such a way to make it impossible for the SNP to dominate, or get anywhere near dominating.

 

Yet remarkably, and to their eternal credit, the SNP have dominated regardless. At the most recent Scottish elections, they achieved almost 47% in the constituency vote, almost 42% in the regional vote. The second party, Davidson's "resurgent" Tories, accrued 22% and 23% respectively. Almost 20 points ahead in one vote, almost 25 points ahead in the other is, after almost a decade in office, astonishing dominance from a so-called "single issue party". 

 

 

Apart from your crucial final point about not supporting independence, how on God's good Earth does voting Tory help any of these people? "I'm fed up with the SNP, so I'm going to set myself on fire to prove a point".

 

The Tories, lest we forget, are so disgusting that they require mothers with more than two children to prove they were raped if they want to receive child tax credits. Rape Clause Ruth. Those are her and their values.

 

Because Labour have been such a mess in Scotland for so long - because Corbyn's Labour have lacked a properly distinctive stance on either independence or Brexit - last year's general election boiled down considerably to independence supporters v unionists, SNP v Tory. The circumstances required Davidson to go after the more hardcore amongst the latter, and she used various dog whistling tactics to do so. 

 

Amongst many other things (and apologies for the source of this link, but hey ho), what was she doing posing with someone as disgusting as John Buchan? 

 

https://wingsoverscotland.com/ruths-fishy-friends/

 

On your bit in bold - this is a major grievance of mine. AMS - the mixed system of voting - was not specifically chosen to prevent solely the SNP winning power or dominating anything. It was to prevent all parties from any one dominating and was a trade off between Labour and the Trade Unions on one side and the LibDems and Greens on the other in the Constitutional Convention which the SNP - wrongly - boycotted. It was to be a parliament of minoroties - which it has predominantly been aside from the 2011/16 Parliament.

 

Sadly - in my view - much like NI, Scottish politics is fractured along constitutional and not political lines. This is to the detriment of the Scottish electorate as every sodding debate is tinged by how you voted in 2014. I mean why should that have much to do with health care and education? 

 

The recent vitriol pushed towards the Herald is a symbol of where the priorities of some on both sides lie. It is a politics of identity here now Shaun. James Dornan blowing off about how OBFA was voted down as part of a unionist plot to flame sectarianism. Or Murdo Fraser saying BTP merging with Police Scotland is a further sign of the government's anti-British attitudes.

 

It's the politics of the gutter. Both issues have far more cogent reasons for opposition to them - OBFA is a plaster for a deep gash in society and BTP is a specialist force whose Scottish officers don't seem to want to join with a dysfunctional force mired in scandal. 

 

The UK has a derth of political talent. Fwiw, Sturgeon is a decent operator and I believe she would in other circumstances be an effective politician but she is handicapped by her cause. Holyrood by and large is a shambles in my eyes now. Staffed by a mixture of bitter idealogues and councillors out their depth. Same applies for the abject leaderships in Northern Ireland and at Westminster.

 

People say countries get what they deserve via the ballot box. I for one think the UK deserves little based on those we are deciding to elect.

[JamboX2]

58 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

We’re so lucky to have England bailing us out all the time and people like you tell how much of a lot of scrounging wanks we all are. You’d think they’d be quite happy to let all the cadging little parts go.

 

It's nothing to do with scrounging. It's all to do with resource going where it's most needed. Bulgaria gets more EU funding than Germany. Why? Because they have a lower set of economic and health indicators that mean extra funding is provided to support government correct these deficiencies.

 

Scotland does have endemic and intergenerational poverty - more so than some parts of the UK. Equally, London has greater poverty than Bristol so gets more from funding as well. Barnett formula puts more in where it's needed. Like EU structural grants.

 

The funding in and of itself is able to be larger as your drawing more funding from a larger pool meaning there is more wealth to spread. Independence would result in a drop in funding unless or until a government decided to levy more tax as there would be a funding shortfall in the medium term. 

 

This is exactly the issue the UK faces with Brexit. By leaving the EU we lose funding through grants, equal market access and access to EU programmes. The same will happen with an independent Scotland and the UK. 

 

58 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Funny how Britain pillaged almost the entire world and is still debt too. Imagine the nick we’d be in if not for stealing everybody else’s wealth. 

Do you think the picture I’ve posted is right enough too?

 

 

What's a satellite UK nation? You're either in the UK or not. Satellites are like Jersey or The Falklands. So I take issue with that.

 

Secondly if you allocate spending with Barnett in a particular area of the UK and then compare it to that area's tax take and output of wealth you will get a deficit or a credit return. As it is Scotland with Barnett spends more per head than it would otherwise be able to independently. Again - if you want independence - you need to realise the choice should it happen isn't a false one of Trident or Cancer Treatment, as that's a one off dividend over a lifetime of a Trident sub, but between free bus passes for all over 65 or free nursery care for every child over 18months of age. 

 

That debate applies to devolved government too but is subsumed by the indy debate. Paying for services will only become more and more of an issue because we have more old than young and we cant expect that burden to fall too much on any single way.

[JamboX2]

9 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

I'm not suggesting for a single moment that all Tory voters are bigots or something! But some are. Some of us will never forget the scenes in Glasgow the day after the referendum - and you can bet your bottom dollar on which party they support. 

 

Is this not just frankly bollocks? Many indy converts I know have voted  Yes-Brexit-Tory in recent years. I'd suggest a very fluid electorate. 

 

The scenes in George Square are as unreflective of a grouping - unionists - as the Siol nan Gaidheal are of SNP voters. You're sinking to the current substandard, Wings, Daily Mail style pap of Scottish discourse. I dare say there are well meaning Tories who will never forget seeing Siol marching with banners attacking them - given the ethnic nationalism they embody.

 

9 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

All in all, you seem convinced there's this incredible, enormous opposition to the evil SNP, just waiting to sweep all before it. There isn't. There's zero electoral evidence of it. And after 11 years of them being in power, the burden of proof is rather on you to explain how that's going to end any time soon.

 

There was little concrete evidence of a post indyref SNP surge. In fact in some polls up till December 2014 Labour polled ahead of the SNP. It was the run from January to May - and Murphy's erratic leadership - coupled with the Cameron/Crosby demonisation of Ed Miliband which brewed a perfect storm for the SNP. 

 

The electoral evidence in Thunderstruk's favour is the collapse of the SNP North Eastern heartlands to the Tories in 2017 and defeats in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Fife at the same time. Seats in 2015 which were safe by a few thousand votes are now held by margins of 10s and 100s.

 

How things play out from here is where it's all to play for and Sturgeon is returning to the indy card this week if the papers are to be believed to begin a counter to the inroads made last year. Inroads made by opposition parties due to their anti-indyref2 stances and focus on other day-to-day matters. 

[SwindonJambo]

On 18/05/2018 at 17:24, Space Mackerel said:

 

Don't blame my choice of holiday to avoid drunken British bams and cuisine. When I go abroad, I like to see the place Im visiting and its people. I get enough of they arseholes here in Edinburgh

 

Good post - again! Bloody hell!  

[Thunderstruck]

9 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

And what you neatly avoid mentioning is that, in a world in which we give outright majorities to UK governments with one in four support from the electorate, the SNP's consistent scores are impressive. In 2015, the Tories got a majority while receiving just 2% more of the electorate than in 1997. That's our ridiculous system for you.

 

Not only that, but the UK is leaving the EU based on 37% of the electorate voting Leave. Meanwhile, 38% of Scots voted Yes in 2014. Yay democracy.

 

 

Yet the SNP still won the Scottish election by 20-25 points. So what "change" are you referring to? Your wishful thinking?

 

 

This is quite amusing. Exactly how do you think the SNP ended up winning 56 MPs in 2015, destroying Labour's epochal dominance in Scotland? Answer: The Vow, and Cameron's behaviour the morning after the referendum. Labour had already been in trouble; now they completely collapsed, with enormous numbers of supporters heading over to the SNP instead.

 

The SNP would never have become half as strong in the first place without winning so many ex-Labour voters, many of whom opposed independence, some because of the belated new offer from Westminster and/or Brown's speech for the ages.

 

Not only that, but much of the SNP's success has been based on middle class support at Scottish elections (and at the 2015 GE too). When push came to shove, most of those voters chose No in 2014. 

 

 

Some of them, sure. However, the examples you gave in your previous post made no sense, because - with the exception of those opposing independence - all the others were about people betrayed by lack of financial help. Nurses, farmers, shipyard workers, etc etc. Do enlighten me as to what voting Tory is going to do for them. 

 

I'm not suggesting for a single moment that all Tory voters are bigots or something! But some are. Some of us will never forget the scenes in Glasgow the day after the referendum - and you can bet your bottom dollar on which party they support. 

 

All in all, you seem convinced there's this incredible, enormous opposition to the evil SNP, just waiting to sweep all before it. There isn't. There's zero electoral evidence of it. And after 11 years of them being in power, the burden of proof is rather on you to explain how that's going to end any time soon.

 

Hear that rattling noise? That’s a set of goalposts being moved. Your original point was that the SNP couldn’t have maintained their position for 11 years without borrowing support from those with other political views. That’s 11 years and half-a-dozen parliamentary votes. In all bar one of these (the one you quote), there is nothing in the Electoral arithmetic to support your contention of meaningful, regular or sustained activity of that nature. 

 

The single election you quote was conducted in the febrile post-referendum month’s when there were a lot of very sore losers seeking to vent their anger. If anything, that vote was “Yes” voters of all political hues using that UKPGE to prove that the actual referendum was fixed - a second, proxy referendum if you like; the arithmetic certainly supports that view.

 

Even so, that vote as a proxy only scraped to 50% and only then as most of the “single issue” voters signed-up for the referendum had disengaged having achieved their aim. 

 

Competence/Capability: The SNP has had 11 years to make a difference, 11 years marked by missed opportunities, selection of cautious options and glaring errors. 

 

Some examples:

Council Tax - a freeze instead of reform. 

 

Small Business Bonus Scheme - in reality a relief for small property that takes no account of ability to pay and where the bill is footed by occupiers of larger properties (in the main, the bigger employers). 

 

Free Higher Education - the effects on Scottish students and institutions have been aired here many times and don’t need repeating. 

 

Local Government - where funding has declined by significantly more than is warranted by any change in Barnett funding - a change exacerbated for many services due to “ring-fencing” of education and social care. 

 

Farming - the Farm Payments issue was a scandal that a compliant media (standfast the excellent Countryfile) largely let pass. A significant contributor to Food Banks being required in rural areas. 

 

Schools - poor provision with no obvious solution to demand arising from new housing. The same for teaching staff. 

 

Continued use of PFI (changing the name doesn’t make it better) adding to debt that has to be serviced. 

 

If you were involved or dependent on the above, wouldn’t you seek change or, at least, make your displeasure known. 

 

Opposition: simple arithmetic shows that more of the electorate do not support the SNP but we are stuck where we are due to a voting system with too much emphasis on FPTP. The future - who can say but I suggest that the last 3 years have shown that we can expect the unexpected. 

 

If, however, you were right and it is the duty of a government (particularly one that is a minority) to govern fairly for all of the people, surely it is a betrayal of the people of Scotland for the SNP administration to focus so much energy on causes that, they think, boost the chances of independence. Brexit and all the faux-outrage being an example. 

 

Lastly - Bigots (yet again) - you couldn’t simply leave it at “I’m not suggesting for a moment that all Tory voters are bigots”, you had to add “or something” - whatever that means - and then mention the drunken yobs (and that’s all they were) in George Square.  Suggesting that they were likely Tory voters is ridiculous and perhaps speaks more of a prejudice of your own.

 

As you said on the Brexit thread “if you are going throw out accusations of bigotry, can you at least back them up with actual evidence”.

[AuldReekie444]

Well said Thunderstruck.

[Space Mackerel]

Smell Thunderstrucks fear.

[Arnold Rothstein]

29 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Smell Thunderstrucks fear.

 

Why would he be scared? It’s going to be braw isn’t it? 

[Captain Sausage]

Thunderstruck bang on the money again. Good post. 

[reaths17]

7 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

On your bit in bold - this is a major grievance of mine. AMS - the mixed system of voting - was not specifically chosen to prevent solely the SNP winning power or dominating anything. It was to prevent all parties from any one dominating and was a trade off between Labour and the Trade Unions on one side and the LibDems and Greens on the other in the Constitutional Convention which the SNP - wrongly - boycotted. It was to be a parliament of minoroties - which it has predominantly been aside from the 2011/16 Parliament.

 

Sadly - in my view - much like NI, Scottish politics is fractured along constitutional and not political lines. This is to the detriment of the Scottish electorate as every sodding debate is tinged by how you voted in 2014. I mean why should that have much to do with health care and education? 

 

The recent vitriol pushed towards the Herald is a symbol of where the priorities of some on both sides lie. It is a politics of identity here now Shaun. James Dornan blowing off about how OBFA was voted down as part of a unionist plot to flame sectarianism. Or Murdo Fraser saying BTP merging with Police Scotland is a further sign of the government's anti-British attitudes.

 

It's the politics of the gutter. Both issues have far more cogent reasons for opposition to them - OBFA is a plaster for a deep gash in society and BTP is a specialist force whose Scottish officers don't seem to want to join with a dysfunctional force mired in scandal. 

 

The UK has a derth of political talent. Fwiw, Sturgeon is a decent operator and I believe she would in other circumstances be an effective politician but she is handicapped by her cause. Holyrood by and large is a shambles in my eyes now. Staffed by a mixture of bitter idealogues and councillors out their depth. Same applies for the abject leaderships in Northern Ireland and at Westminster.

 

People say countries get what they deserve via the ballot box. I for one think the UK deserves little based on those we are deciding to elect.

who else can we vote for ? the candidates are fed to us by the parties, the parties are politics. we don't have an option to vote for people who can run the country properly. democracy isn't working as things stand.

[JamboX2]

11 minutes ago, reaths17 said:

who else can we vote for ? the candidates are fed to us by the parties, the parties are politics. we don't have an option to vote for people who can run the country properly. democracy isn't working as things stand.

 

Better politicians have left not to come back due to the climate is my point. And I'm not meaning Salmond or Brown. 

 

I would tend to agree with you but that is party politics in a democracy. You could obviously go for open primaries but therein lies the Americansation of politics.

[JackLadd]

I'm amazed anybody still supports SNP.  They are beating the same empty drum on ref2 and stirring more trouble and division. Deluded, out of touch, arrogant ... these are their plus points! And the cult of Sturgeon means no debate in that party either. Better check that with FM is the mantra. National Socialism. 

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 hours ago, JackLadd said:

I'm amazed anybody still supports SNP.  They are beating the same empty drum on ref2 and stirring more trouble and division. Deluded, out of touch, arrogant ... these are their plus points! And the cult of Sturgeon means no debate in that party either. Better check that with FM is the mantra. National Socialism. 

[Cade]

15 hours ago, JackLadd said:

I'm amazed anybody still supports SNP.  They are beating the same empty drum on ref2 and stirring more trouble and division. Deluded, out of touch, arrogant ... these are their plus points! And the cult of Sturgeon means no debate in that party either. Better check that with FM is the mantra. National Socialism. 

[Space Mackerel]

15 hours ago, JackLadd said:

I'm amazed anybody still supports SNP.  They are beating the same empty drum on ref2 and stirring more trouble and division. Deluded, out of touch, arrogant ... these are their plus points! And the cult of Sturgeon means no debate in that party either. Better check that with FM is the mantra. National Socialism. 

 

Trouble..........check

Division........check

Cult...............check

Nationalist....check

Socialism......check

 

HOUSE!! 

 

[lost in space]

Nicola is doing all she can to harm Brexit.  She NEEDS Brexit to be a disaster - and she and Mike Russell were never going to agree terms on the so-called "power grab".  Brexit may still be a disaster but that possibility is reducing (in my view).  She knows that the Scottish voters will not vote to leave our biggest customer (UK)  - and join the Euro with the the ailing economies of Italy, Greece and Portugal (not to mention the eastern states).

The idea of the "Scottish pound" (or bawbee) smacks of desperation. 

The pound has stayed stronger than I would have imagined at this stage - interesting times ahead - but SNP are not performing well in ANY area and their time is slipping away. 

Indy Ref2 - I though that was only going to be called when there were clear signs that the majority of the electorate wanted it!!!!!! - Aye right!!!!!

[Space Mackerel]

[Space Mackerel]

https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/gross-national-income-statistics-for-scotland-a-net-outflow-of-scottish-income/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[jambo lodge]

20 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

https://fraserofallander.org/scottish-economy/gross-national-income-statistics-for-scotland-a-net-outflow-of-scottish-income/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Certainly doesn't support the case for independence when profits from two of the main industry sectors, financial services and oil go out of Scotland. 

[jambo lodge]

24 minutes ago, Space Mackerel said:

Always believe forecasts from the EU. What else has come from SNP Central today? 

[reaths17]

20 hours ago, JamboX2 said:

 

Better politicians have left not to come back due to the climate is my point. And I'm not meaning Salmond or Brown. 

 

I would tend to agree with you but that is party politics in a democracy. You could obviously go for open primaries but therein lies the Americansation of politics.

alas, i don't want good politicians being good at politicating, i would prefer people good at running things, like the country

[Space Mackerel]

55 minutes ago, jambo lodge said:

Always believe forecasts from the EU. What else has come from SNP Central today? 

 

Thats from the Financial Times. 

 

Youve got the dreaded “Trapper John” disease, jumping in with both feet, swinging and a missing without reading the post properly. It’s incurable BTW.