Even More SNP Nonsense

[Doogz]

7 minutes ago, Doogz said:

Where did I say I was an Indy supporter? Please provide a quote - thanks!

 

1 minute ago, Space Mackerel said:

 

 

That's your response? A post thst explicitly says "I don't necessarily want an independent Scotland" is your evidence that I support Indy? Obviously wating my time if you struggle to understand the written word to this extent.

[Sraman]

Just now, Doogz said:

 

That's your response? A post thst explicitly says "I don't necessarily want an independent Scotland" is your evidence that I support Indy? Obviously wating my time if you struggle to understand the written word to this extent.

 

What do you want to know Doogz? 

[Doogz]

55 minutes ago, Doogz said:

I want Scotland to be as prosperous as possible regardless of being part of a union with the rest of the UK or part of Europe- what makes you think we will be more prosperous outside the UK and how long will this take ? Do we need to be part of the EU to accomplish this?

 

2 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

What do you want to know Doogz? 

As per above

[Doogz]

2 minutes ago, Barack said:

Thanks to admin, for providing me with that link I asked for.

 

Very interesting. Very.

In what way?

[Sraman]

1 minute ago, Doogz said:

 

As per above

 

I think that an Independent Scotland will be able to prosper whichever path it chooses and it's really up to us how long it takes. We do not need to be a part of the EU but it would help in the short term by allowing us time and aid to get all our systems up to speed and in line with our largest market. Life will go on as normal. There will be no Armageddon. There may be a few mistakes along the way but we're well used to that with the current lot anyway. The man in the street will not be any richer or poorer than he is just now.

 

There you go. Not much change really, except that we have a greater say in how we are governed and run as a country. Which means we have a greater say in which projects get carried out and when, a greater say in what type of jobs we want to attract to Scotland by giving companies favourable start up tax rates, a greater say in which flag goes on our raspberries, a greater say in how pensions are structured, a greater say in banking regulation, a greater say in everything from then on....................

 

If you want to get rich off of Independence here's a wee idea for a business for you. First off you have to lobby the new Government to get them to pass cloned mutton as safe for human consumption, if you get in quick when they are still getting sorted you might have a chance as they will be a bit distracted. Once this is done, get yourself down to Penicuik and do a deal with the scientists to supply Dolly's. This is the easy bit, it's time to make those Dolly Pies. Every pie guaranteed to be exactly the same as the last one! I can see it now Doogz, the giant Golden D adorning eateries across the globe "Doogz's. Home of the Dolly Pie." A guaranteed winner.

 

 

[JackLadd]

Moonbeam incoming...  Wul grow the ecoanamy tae service the deficit that's three times rest ay UK's and wur share ay national debt. Bank ay England will be oor pal. Wul get same credit rating as yon and issue boands at same rate cos they'll dae whit we say.  Aye! Oil wul be at $110 a barrel that we budgeted fur in oor wee white paper.  An see aw you service sector folk,  Nicola wul keep you aw in a joab even tho we canny afford it.. and wul pay yur pension and NHS just like the Greeks did (aye, until they went bust) And it's no true yur free prescriptions and uni fees ur cancelled oan day two! Tory sterity is oor. Wee Mhairi hus a plan see. Wul be rich like Norway but in wae Brussels. Nicola huz it aw worked oot.  She's an expert see!  Think of aw they oors she spent chained tae a fence ootside the Faslane submarine base. Kens her stuff. 

[Doogz]

4 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

I think that an Independent Scotland will be able to prosper whichever path it chooses and it's really up to us how long it takes. We do not need to be a part of the EU but it would help in the short term by allowing us time and aid to get all our systems up to speed and in line with our largest market. Life will go on as normal. There will be no Armageddon. There may be a few mistakes along the way but we're well used to that with the current lot anyway. The man in the street will not be any richer or poorer than he is just now.

 

There you go. Not much change really, except that we have a greater say in how we are governed and run as a country. Which means we have a greater say in which projects get carried out and when, a greater say in what type of jobs we want to attract to Scotland by giving companies favourable start up tax rates, a greater say in which flag goes on our raspberries, a greater say in how pensions are structured, a greater say in banking regulation, a greater say in everything from then on....................

Well thanks for engaging in the discussion.

Sure Scotland can prosper eventually but to think there won't be pain from that transition is where I have my doubts: As an example-

I work in financial services- not as some fat cat banker getting a massive bonus, just another IT monkey working away for a 'reasonable' salary. The last time I looked financial services contributed around 8% to Scotland's economy but I suspect this will be dropping due to Brexit. We're already seeing jobs move to Dublin & Krakow and jobs lost in Edinburgh - if we gain independence we will also isolated from the rest of the UK and whatever deals they've cobbled together post Brexit so the industry will shrink even more- and more skilled people will take up opportunities abroad as a result. 

So, even ignoring the direct impact this would have to me an my colleagues- it will also have a direct impact to the Scottish economy. How will this shortfall be replaced ? 

 

[Hasselhoff]

5 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

I think that an Independent Scotland will be able to prosper whichever path it chooses and it's really up to us how long it takes. We do not need to be a part of the EU but it would help in the short term by allowing us time and aid to get all our systems up to speed and in line with our largest market. Life will go on as normal. There will be no Armageddon. There may be a few mistakes along the way but we're well used to that with the current lot anyway. The man in the street will not be any richer or poorer than he is just now.

 

There you go. Not much change really, except that we have a greater say in how we are governed and run as a country. Which means we have a greater say in which projects get carried out and when, a greater say in what type of jobs we want to attract to Scotland by giving companies favourable start up tax rates, a greater say in which flag goes on our raspberries, a greater say in how pensions are structured, a greater say in banking regulation, a greater say in everything from then on....................

 

If you want to get rich off of Independence here's a wee idea for a business for you. First off you have to lobby the new Government to get them to pass cloned mutton as safe for human consumption, if you get in quick when they are still getting sorted you might have a chance as they will be a bit distracted. Once this is done, get yourself down to Penicuik and do a deal with the scientists to supply Dolly's. This is the easy bit, it's time to make those Dolly Pies. Every pie guaranteed to be exactly the same as the last one! I can see it now Doogz, the giant Golden D adorning eateries across the globe "Doogz's. Home of the Dolly Pie." A guaranteed winner.

 

 

 

So leaving the EU is an unmitigated disaster for the UK but Scotland don't really need to be in it as we are Scottish and we will get by either way. UK aren't savvy enough to get by outside the EU however as Scotland is better. Nationalism at its finest

 

We will be a shadow of the country we are now as businesses move to rUk and we lose their tax take. As Kevin Hague said last night on Scotland Tonight to the Business for Scotland guy (who is so competent at business he turned 50k into £500), we lose £10bn overnight from the UK if Indy. We can't just "increase growth" instantly and so we would have to cut back considerably to get by. Goodbye all the unaffordable nationalist bribes over the last years such as free prescriptions, tuition etc. We also have to pay for all the systems to be independent. Salmond claimed that would cost a total of £200m which was absolute nonsense. 

 

Positivity and hope without realism and logic is not going to win independence. Not had a proper response to my post yesterday yet - nothing but deflection 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Brighton Jambo]

9 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

Patriotism = love of one's country. A good, benign and necessary thing IMO.

 

Nationalism = hatred of other countries and belief in the 'exceptionalism' of one's own country. Which generally results in disaster.

 

In my experience, Brexiteers are much, much, much more guilty of the latter than Scottish independence fans. But indy supporters aren't 100% innocent of it either.

Part of the problem of the push for independence is that it is a hatred of one particular country.  I absolutely do not mean that is the case for all independence voters but there is a definite undercurrent of this which switches a lot of people off given how integrated the English are into so many Scottish workplaces, communities and most importantly families. 

[Harry Potter]

Wonder how much a repeat of Indy 1 would cost now, 15.8 million for the 1st one which seems to a lot a waste of time

as it never ended up a yes win.

So lets do it all again for a possible cost of well over 20 million, cant see it happening.

[AlphonseCapone]

3 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

Wonder how much a repeat of Indy 1 would cost now, 15.8 million for the 1st one which seems to a lot a waste of time

as it never ended up a yes win.

So lets do it all again for a possible cost of well over 20 million, cant see it happening.

 

Sorry but that makes no sense. The whole point of a referendum is to see what the result is, you can't then retrospectively turn around and say it was a waste because you know the result based on that said referendum. 

 

By all means argue a second one is a waste of money. 

[JackLadd]

So now per Gnatonomics we're all going to be 4,000 Sturgeon Poonds better off? Somebodys Casio needs batteries.

[Sraman]

7 hours ago, Doogz said:

Well thanks for engaging in the discussion.

Sure Scotland can prosper eventually but to think there won't be pain from that transition is where I have my doubts: As an example-

I work in financial services- not as some fat cat banker getting a massive bonus, just another IT monkey working away for a 'reasonable' salary. The last time I looked financial services contributed around 8% to Scotland's economy but I suspect this will be dropping due to Brexit. We're already seeing jobs move to Dublin & Krakow and jobs lost in Edinburgh - if we gain independence we will also isolated from the rest of the UK and whatever deals they've cobbled together post Brexit so the industry will shrink even more- and more skilled people will take up opportunities abroad as a result. 

So, even ignoring the direct impact this would have to me an my colleagues- it will also have a direct impact to the Scottish economy. How will this shortfall be replaced ? 

 

 

So it's Brexit that threatens your sector not Independence. Ask Westminster how the shortfall will be replaced. For instance, what have they done about the jobs that have already moved to Dublin and Krakow as a result of Brexit when it hasn't even happened yet?

 

If we were independent then remaining within the EU, i.e. cut out the very thing that is damaging your sector, would be the best bet for your sector. Your bosses tell you that they would move South in the event of Independence, right into the jaws of Brexit, the very beast that is killing them (well, it's not killing them, just your jobs, they're doing well enough in this deregulated, tax haven paradise). Surely you have to question the logic behind this?

[Hasselhoff]

39 minutes ago, JackLadd said:

So now per Gnatonomics we're all going to be 4,000 Sturgeon Poonds better off? Somebodys Casio needs batteries.

 

Early reaction  (pre-report) on the £4000 per person richer nonsense

 

https://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/sustainable-growth-commission-jam.html

 

[Sraman]

6 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

So leaving the EU is an unmitigated disaster for the UK but Scotland don't really need to be in it as we are Scottish and we will get by either way. UK aren't savvy enough to get by outside the EU however as Scotland is better. Nationalism at its finest

 

We will be a shadow of the country we are now as businesses move to rUk and we lose their tax take. As Kevin Hague said last night on Scotland Tonight to the Business for Scotland guy (who is so competent at business he turned 50k into £500), we lose £10bn overnight from the UK if Indy. We can't just "increase growth" instantly and so we would have to cut back considerably to get by. Goodbye all the unaffordable nationalist bribes over the last years such as free prescriptions, tuition etc. We also have to pay for all the systems to be independent. Salmond claimed that would cost a total of £200m which was absolute nonsense. 

 

Positivity and hope without realism and logic is not going to win independence. Not had a proper response to my post yesterday yet - nothing but deflection 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if they had some competence about them. It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if the Tory party weren't carrying out the process as if we were living in some kind of dictatorship. It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if the Tory party weren't obsessed with trying to show the world how big Theresa's non existent balls are. It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if the World didn't already know that the aforementioned balls were non existent.

 

But, that's the position we are in. That's the position you are happy with. 

 

£10bn overnight. That's a hell of a lot of goods and services for rUK to find overnight. 

 

What was yesterdays question caller?

[Hasselhoff]

2 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if they had some competence about them. It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if the Tory party weren't carrying out the process as if we were living in some kind of dictatorship. It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if the Tory party weren't obsessed with trying to show the world how big Theresa's non existent balls are. It wouldn't be an unmitigated disaster for the UK if the World didn't already know that the aforementioned balls were non existent.

 

But, that's the position we are in. That's the position you are happy with. 

 

£10bn overnight. That's a hell of a lot of goods and services for rUK to find overnight. 

 

What was yesterdays question caller?

 

I believe The UK government is more competent than the Scottish government. They deal with all aspects of running a country and not just devolved issues and so they are the ones who need to make the truly difficult decisions in order to ensure the country can function properly. 

 

Challenge for you - Name the best 5 politicians Scotland has to offer - once you do this,  you will see how short we are of any quality in comparison to the UK government which can pull from the best of Scotland, Wales, NI and England. It's like our football team - we have a smaller pool to pick from and so finding a gem is rare. Sturgeon talks a good game, will let you have her as no.1 - 4 more please. As part of the UK, our best Scottish people can help contribute as part of the UK. In an indy Scotland, utter dross like Patrick Harvie and his wee schoolkid Green chum would become key players in the Government. 

 

The £10bn transfer doesn't include trade going either way. I imagine Scotland would soon establish a trade deal with rUK which would work both ways. That's not the issue.

 

No point in my finding my question for you, you won't answer it. If you really want to, go back a page and find it yourself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sraman]

1 minute ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

I believe The UK government is more competent than the Scottish government. They deal with all aspects of running a country and not just devolved issues and so they are the ones who need to make the truly difficult decisions in order to ensure the country can function properly. 

 

Challenge for you - Name the best 5 politicians Scotland has to offer - once you do this,  you will see how short we are of any quality in comparison to the UK government which can pull from the best of Scotland, Wales, NI and England. It's like our football team - we have a smaller pool to pick from and so finding a gem is rare. Sturgeon talks a good game, will let you have her as no.1 - 4 more please. As part of the UK, our best Scottish people can help contribute as part of the UK. In an indy Scotland, utter dross like Patrick Harvie and his wee schoolkid Green chum would become key players in the Government. 

 

The £10bn transfer doesn't include trade going either way. I imagine Scotland would soon establish a trade deal with rUK which would work both ways. That's not the issue.

 

No point in my finding my question for you, you won't answer it. If you really want to, go back a page and find it yourself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just answered that question for you. Your personal beliefs are made a mockery of by Westminster. I can't help it if you can't see that.

 

The best 5 politicians Scotland has to offer? What has that got to do with anything? As you say our lot are only part time at the moment but it's nice to see that you recognise that Nicola Sturgeon is way out in front of the likes of Mundell, Gove, Duncan-Smith, etc. Which also makes a mockery of your stated personal beliefs. Having Green party representation in parliament is not a bad thing.

 

You're going to have to explain this one way transfer thing as I'm not aware of any commitments the Scottish Parliament has with the UK Govt that would merit such a minuscule divorce bill (in the grand scheme of divorce bills, you understand?). Trade always works both ways, there cannot be trade without two parties.

 

There you go, as I said, I answered your previous question and I have responded to your points in the above post. You complained that all you got from your question yesterday was deflection. I offered to have a go at answering your question from yesterday as it seemed to be upsetting you. I thought I was doing a good thing but now you want me to "go back a page and find it yourself". That's not very sporting of you, on a football forum as well.

[Doogz]

45 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

So it's Brexit that threatens your sector not Independence. Ask Westminster how the shortfall will be replaced. For instance, what have they done about the jobs that have already moved to Dublin and Krakow as a result of Brexit when it hasn't even happened yet?

 

If we were independent then remaining within the EU, i.e. cut out the very thing that is damaging your sector, would be the best bet for your sector. Your bosses tell you that they would move South in the event of Independence, right into the jaws of Brexit, the very beast that is killing them (well, it's not killing them, just your jobs, they're doing well enough in this deregulated, tax haven paradise). Surely you have to question the logic behind this?

No, I'm afraid you've missed the point - Brexit is only part of the problem - currently the biggest part but as the money and transactions are currently mainly from London & the EU - independence would mean we miss out on both these markets until we are able to rejoin the EU (unless there is a radical re-think on Brexit there is no option for Scotland to "remain" in the EU as you have suggested). My bosses have not suggested we move south although currently our European HQ is based in London - the offers I've had from my company so far are to move to Dublin or Krakow - to the best of my knowledge they aren't planning on closing Edinburgh completely and for now my job seems relatively safe but while there is uncertainty over Brexit and additionally so with talk of another Indy Referendum they are quite rightly choosing to only expand in the more secure regions.

[Sraman]

Just now, Doogz said:

No, I'm afraid you've missed the point - Brexit is only part of the problem - currently the biggest part but as the money and transactions are currently mainly from London & the EU - independence would mean we miss out on both these markets until we are able to rejoin the EU (unless there is a radical re-think on Brexit there is no option for Scotland to "remain" in the EU as you have suggested). My bosses have not suggested we move south although currently our European HQ is based in London - the offers I've had from my company so far are to move to Dublin or Krakow - to the best of my knowledge they aren't planning on closing Edinburgh completely and for now my job seems relatively safe but while there is uncertainty over Brexit and additionally so with talk of another Indy Referendum they are quite rightly choosing to only expand in the more secure regions.

 

So it's in everyone's interests to get both over and done with as soon as possible. Just as well Nicola is sticking to her guns and setting the wheels in motion for a second referendum to take place around about the same time as Brexit is delivered. Get them both over and done with so that everyone can get back to stability. 

[Doogz]

6 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

So it's in everyone's interests to get both over and done with as soon as possible. Just as well Nicola is sticking to her guns and setting the wheels in motion for a second referendum to take place around about the same time as Brexit is delivered. Get them both over and done with so that everyone can get back to stability. 

Realistically, how long will it take for Brexit to be completed, hold another Indy referendum, leave the UK, possibly hold another referendum to confirm we want to re-join the EU and then finally re-join the EU and then try to re-build the financial services industry in Scotland ? What does Scotland do to plug that gap in the economy while we wait? What do you expect the people with skills in this industry to do while we wait?

[Hasselhoff]

23 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

I just answered that question for you. Your personal beliefs are made a mockery of by Westminster. I can't help it if you can't see that.

 

The best 5 politicians Scotland has to offer? What has that got to do with anything? As you say our lot are only part time at the moment but it's nice to see that you recognise that Nicola Sturgeon is way out in front of the likes of Mundell, Gove, Duncan-Smith, etc. Which also makes a mockery of your stated personal beliefs. Having Green party representation in parliament is not a bad thing.

 

You're going to have to explain this one way transfer thing as I'm not aware of any commitments the Scottish Parliament has with the UK Govt that would merit such a minuscule divorce bill (in the grand scheme of divorce bills, you understand?). Trade always works both ways, there cannot be trade without two parties.

 

There you go, as I said, I answered your previous question and I have responded to your points in the above post. You complained that all you got from your question yesterday was deflection. I offered to have a go at answering your question from yesterday as it seemed to be upsetting you. I thought I was doing a good thing but now you want me to "go back a page and find it yourself". That's not very sporting of you, on a football forum as well.

 

If we were independent, we would only be selecting politicians who are based in Scotland. We don't have much quality to pick from. For all Westminster has the old fashioned style etc, it's a damn sight more grown up than Holyrood. This isn't just an anti-SNP statement. Just need to look at FMQ's today when Annie Wells of the Tories asked a question which was amateur to say the least. There is no way she should be a member of parliament that we pay for. Happy clapping and getting away with murder from the pathetic presiding officer make it an embarrassment. 

 

Transfer is from the UK to Scotland. Currently it is a one way transfer. Not much to explain. You're an avid forum user, you're more than capable of going back a page to find a post and quote it

 

 

[Pans Jambo]

21 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

I believe The UK government is more competent than the Scottish government. They deal with all aspects of running a country and not just devolved issues and so they are the ones who need to make the truly difficult decisions in order to ensure the country can function properly. 

 

Challenge for you - Name the best 5 politicians Scotland has to offer - once you do this,  you will see how short we are of any quality in comparison to the UK government which can pull from the best of Scotland, Wales, NI and England. It's like our football team - we have a smaller pool to pick from and so finding a gem is rare. Sturgeon talks a good game, will let you have her as no.1 - 4 more please. As part of the UK, our best Scottish people can help contribute as part of the UK. In an indy Scotland, utter dross like Patrick Harvie and his wee schoolkid Green chum would become key players in the Government. 

 

The £10bn transfer doesn't include trade going either way. I imagine Scotland would soon establish a trade deal with rUK which would work both ways. That's not the issue.

 

No point in my finding my question for you, you won't answer it. If you really want to, go back a page and find it yourself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How is it you are measuring that?

 

By the current 'we will just have to make do with what we get' attitude of the Tory negotiators on Brexit who are blatantly clueless? The Hard border with Ireland will probably happen and it is going to take the peace in that region away shortly IMO.

 

Its a bloody disaster for trade and the elephant in the room is that everyone knows it! Even the folk who voted for it!

 

Is it almost 10 years of Tory Austerity?

Is it the continual battering of the NHS including scrapping the Nurses bursary, privatization and the lowest levels of NHS funding as a % of GDP since the NHS was created?

Is it the continual battering of the unemployed or the disabled (bedroom tax and sanctions anyone)?

Is it the 'rape clause'?

Is it the alarming rise in child poverty?

Is it the massive growth in food banks?

Is it the massive rise in homelessness?

Is it the illegal deportation of British citizens?

Is it that our elderly have one of the lowest pensions in the entire developed world?

Is it the continual bombing of foreign countries which in turn creates refugees then the refusal to let them into the country that created them in the first place?

Is it the Billionaires that get away not paying their taxes (Over £300Bn stored offshore)?

Is it the multinational companies that get away with not paying their taxes?

Is it the low pay for a full week's work so folk have to claim 'tax credits' to get by?

Is it Zero hours contracts?

Is it the more people on fewer benefits?

Is it that since the financial crash the wealthy are getting even more wealthy whereas the average worker has lost on average £18,500 since 2010 in lost revenue?

Is it the pissing away Billions of oil profits over the last 40 years?

Is it spending Billions on WMD's to sit in the Clyde?

Is it that the UK government stay silent when theres genocide in Palestine but bomb Syria when the USA tell us to?

Is it that the younger generation cant get a council house because they have all but stopped building them?

The young cant afford private rent and cant afford a deposit for a small house anymore?

Is it the power grab for '7 years' (Yeah, we believe you May, just like we believed 'The Vow')?

Is it the fracking as the Tories are taking away the need for planning consent to allow their 'pals' to frack the hell out of the country?

Is it Police cuts?

Is it the High Speed Railway that terminates in Leeds & is of no use to Scotland whatsoever but we will still pay our 10% off?

Is it EVEL (except when it comes to Scotland of course)?

 

OR

 

Do you just really REALLY like Mundell and Mrs May that much that you HATE your own elected politicians?

 

Competent aye?

 

 

 

 

[Sraman]

3 minutes ago, Doogz said:

Realistically, how long will it take for Brexit to be completed, hold another Indy referendum, leave the UK, possibly hold another referendum to confirm we want to re-join the EU and then finally re-join the EU and then try to re-build the financial services industry in Scotland ? What does Scotland do to plug that gap in the economy while we wait? What do you expect the people with skills in this industry to do while we wait?

 

Overnight, according to Hasselhoff. 

 

Realistically, Brexit seems to be taking an age and a half. Realistically, I can't see Scottish Independence taking anywhere near as long for two reasons. 1. It doesn't take that long for us to declare Independence and 2. You can bet your bottom dollar that as soon as we do Westminster will want it as quick and as painless as possible. Security, as you said. Realistically, I don't see any reason why we would have to wait to re-join the world. Realistically I cannot see any obstacles for re-joining the EU in some way. Realistically I cannot see any obstacles to continuing to trade with rUK after Independence.

 

Your industry will not disappear. Your industry is very happy in Edinburgh and will remain happy in Edinburgh no matter what way things go. It is Edinburgh. I'm a Production Engineer to trade, worked as a labourer on building sites, worked in the financial services sector like yourself, we all do what we have to do to get by. I could have moved in search of Production Engineering work when political decisions closed the factory I was working in but I liked living where I was. As a lowly IT guy I'm sure that in this modern world you would be able to use those very same skills in pretty much any sector you care to chose from but, if the worst comes to the worst, there are always alternatives out there. Job for life, what's that again?

[Hasselhoff]

Just now, Pans Jambo said:

How is it you are measuring that? That's why i said "I believe" - my analysis is formed from listening to politicians across all parties. 

 

By the current 'we will just have to make do with what we get' attitude of the Tory negotiators on Brexit who are blatantly clueless? The Hard border with Ireland will probably happen and it is going to take the peace in that region away shortly IMO.

 

Its a bloody disaster for trade and the elephant in the room is that everyone knows it! Even the folk who voted for it!

 

Is it almost 10 years of Tory Austerity? - if you think this is austerity,  you're in for a shock if we ever do go independent

Is it the continual battering of the NHS including scrapping the Nurses bursary, privatization and the lowest levels of NHS funding as a % of GDP since the NHS was created? In 2014, we were told the NHS was on its last legs. It got votes out for Yes. NHS is better funded by Tories than it was by Labour. A healthy economy allows things to be funded well.

Is it the continual battering of the unemployed or the disabled (bedroom tax and sanctions anyone)? Mistakes happen, it isn't the norm, just unfortunate exceptions. For all you know, the person in a job centre who screws up someone's life could be a Labour or SNP voter who isn't doing their job properly. The system is not designed to punish people intentionally

Is it the 'rape clause'? Pathetic argument - SNP would rather limit to 2 kids with no exceptions. Tories are trying to do the right thing. Using rape victims as a tactic to attack Tories is beyond low

Is it the alarming rise in child poverty? We have poverty in Scotland too and have the powers right now to do something about but don't

Is it the massive growth in food banks? Food banks are a good thing - people willing to give food away to people who need it when their chips are down. Norway and Germany have them too. It's a sign of a compassionate society. 

Is it the massive rise in homelessness? We have homelessness in Scotland too and have the powers right now to do something about but don't

Is it the illegal deportation of British citizens? Governments make mistakes. Scottish Government does too. Key is that they own up and rectify mistakes and also fall on their sword. Not seen our Scottish Health Secretary resign yet...

Is it that our elderly have one of the lowest pensions in the entire developed world? "Entire developed world?" We're 1% less then Toronto. Hardly poverty stakes!

Is it the continual bombing of foreign countries which in turn creates refugees then the refusal to let them into the country that created them in the first place? Sitting back while atrocities are committed is cowardly. UK tries to do the right thing.

Is it the Billionaires that get away not paying their taxes (Over £300Bn stored offshore)? We have poverty in Scotland too and have the powers right now to do something about but don't

Is it the multinational companies that get away with not paying their taxes? Put your money where your mouth is and stop shopping at Amazon then - bet you don't

Is it the low pay for a full week's work so folk have to claim 'tax credits' to get by? Tax credits are a vehicle to allow low pay to be enhanced. What would you rather do?

Is it Zero hours contracts? Many people want to have these contracts. A ban is not the right thing to do as it can fit some people's lifestyles. Fairer working regulations are coming in. How was this allowed to happen under EU regulations where we have the Working Time Directive etc.?

Is it the more people on fewer benefits? The tax threshold under which you don't need to pay tax has doubled since Labour days meaning people don't pay tax until earning a decent wage. Those who can should be encouraged into work. Those who can't work are entitled to get all the care and help they can get. 

Is it that since the financial crash the wealthy are getting even more wealthy whereas the average worker has lost on average £18,500 since 2010 in lost revenue? That's how money works. If you have money, it grows. If you have debt, it grows. The wealthy pay the vast majority of taxes in the UK. Yes, tax loopholes should be closed but that takes time

Is it the pissing away Billions of oil profits over the last 40 years? That ship has sailed. Nobody has a time machine to go back and form an oil fund like we should have done. 

Is it spending Billions on WMD's to sit in the Clyde? Should we just start firing our deterrents to make you happy? We don't want them to be used but it's important we have them

Is it that the UK government stay silent when theres genocide in Palestine but bomb Syria when the USA tell us to? As I said, the UK tries to do the right thing where appropriate

Is it that the younger generation cant get a council house because they have all but stopped building them? Applies to Scotland too

The young cant afford private rent and cant afford a deposit for a small house anymore? Could be worse, we could have 15% interest rates. Young people just need to make sacrifices to get by but everyone wants everything for free these days

Is it the power grab for '7 years' (Yeah, we believe you May, just like we believed 'The Vow')? The Vow happened - hence we have more powers

Is it the fracking as the Tories are taking away the need for planning consent to allow their 'pals' to frack the hell out of the country? There is no scientific evidence that fracking is bad. Have the SNP banned it or not? 

Is it Police cuts? Cuts happen everywhere - Scotland's cuts to the Police Force  have made people desperate to retire from the force. Police Scotland taking over the British Transport Police is widely not wanted

Is it the High Speed Railway that terminates in Leeds & is of no use to Scotland whatsoever but we will still pay our 10% off? We're part of the UK, we benefit from people spending money in London. Sharing and pooling works that way

Is it EVEL (except when it comes to Scotland of course)? England doesn't have its own dedicated parliament and so they need somewhere to discuss factors that only affect England. I have no problem with that at all. 

 

OR

 

Do you just really REALLY like Mundell and Mrs May that much that you HATE your own elected politicians? I respect politicians who aren't obsessed with a lifelong dream and actually focus on the things that make a difference to everyday life. 

 

Competent aye?

 

[Sraman]

28 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

If we were independent, we would only be selecting politicians who are based in Scotland. We don't have much quality to pick from. For all Westminster has the old fashioned style etc, it's a damn sight more grown up than Holyrood. This isn't just an anti-SNP statement. Just need to look at FMQ's today when Annie Wells of the Tories asked a question which was amateur to say the least. There is no way she should be a member of parliament that we pay for. Happy clapping and getting away with murder from the pathetic presiding officer make it an embarrassment. 

 

Transfer is from the UK to Scotland. Currently it is a one way transfer. Not much to explain. You're an avid forum user, you're more than capable of going back a page to find a post and quote it

 

 

 

 

You must be confusing me with someone else. 

 

I do not rate politicians or give them a top 10. I don't even have any posters on my walls. If that's the kind of thing you're into far be it from me to dissuade you from whatever gives you the kicks we all so desperately need.

 

I am not an avid forum poster. I only post on here.

 

I'm still stuck on this transfer thing. You're going to have to provide a link or something.

[Sraman]

News just in!

 

Hasselhoff has just claimed that Independence will not "make a difference to everyday life."

 

Arguments over folks, there's no need to fear, life will go on as before.

[Hasselhoff]

11 minutes ago, Sraman said:

News just in!

 

Hasselhoff has just claimed that Independence will not "make a difference to everyday life."

 

Arguments over folks, there's no need to fear, life will go on as before.

 

It won't make a positive difference to everyday life despite the National's ridiculous headlines today which even members of the Growth Commission were cringing at

[Sraman]

Just now, Hasselhoff said:

 

It won't make a positive difference to everyday life despite the National's ridiculous headlines today which even members of the Growth Commission were cringing at

 

How do you know? Do you have a crystal ball, or are you just guessing like everyone else?

 

You see, based on facts and figures (any facts and figures you like) you will have a best scenario and a worst scenario prediction for the future. Both of these are uncertain as they have not happened and could be affected by any set of circumstances that arise from as soon as the figures are worked out. Carillion predicted a lot and died. Rangers predicted a lot and died. Circumstances affect predictions no matter how careful those predictions are worked out. Remember Westminster aided Carillions predictions, Rangers are just a throwaway example of another good British Business (not the club though).

 

Facts and figures are not used by politicians to tell us facts and figures. They are used to further their advantage on a particular point. There is no point in taking notice of any facts and figures presented by any politicians. The facts and figures deduced from their particular set of facts and figures don't matter. They are only presented to push the issue and, as I say, they are out of date before they have even been presented. One week we're heading for oblivion, the next everything's rosy in that particular respect. How many times have we heard it in the past. Not lately in Westminster I'll grant as the Tories are just going ahead with their dictatorial "we'll do what we want" form of Government, all aided and abetted by that lovely smiling cheeky chappy of a **** Mr. Speaker. I get the feeling that he thinks it's his show.

 

 

[Hasselhoff]

1 minute ago, Sraman said:

 

How do you know? Do you have a crystal ball, or are you just guessing like everyone else?

 

You see, based on facts and figures (any facts and figures you like) you will have a best scenario and a worst scenario prediction for the future. Both of these are uncertain as they have not happened and could be affected by any set of circumstances that arise from as soon as the figures are worked out. Carillion predicted a lot and died. Rangers predicted a lot and died. Circumstances affect predictions no matter how careful those predictions are worked out. Remember Westminster aided Carillions predictions, Rangers are just a throwaway example of another good British Business (not the club though).

 

Facts and figures are not used by politicians to tell us facts and figures. They are used to further their advantage on a particular point. There is no point in taking notice of any facts and figures presented by any politicians. The facts and figures deduced from their particular set of facts and figures don't matter. They are only presented to push the issue and, as I say, they are out of date before they have even been presented. One week we're heading for oblivion, the next everything's rosy in that particular respect. How many times have we heard it in the past. Not lately in Westminster I'll grant as the Tories are just going ahead with their dictatorial "we'll do what we want" form of Government, all aided and abetted by that lovely smiling cheeky chappy of a **** Mr. Speaker. I get the feeling that he thinks it's his show.

 

 

 

Earlier on you were saying how Brexit will be an unmitigated disaster. Does that mean it may not be as circumstances may arise as figures are worked out? 

 

Your side will soon be backing "Leave UK" and trying to argue the complete opposite of what they did when being against Leave EU. Looking forward to the "screeching u-turns" as Nicola would say.

 

[Sraman]

6 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

Earlier on you were saying how Brexit will be an unmitigated disaster. Does that mean it may not be as circumstances may arise as figures are worked out? 

 

Your side will soon be backing "Leave UK" and trying to argue the complete opposite of what they did when being against Leave EU. Looking forward to the "screeching u-turns" as Nicola would say.

 

 

I never mentioned figures in the Brexit analogy, that was Theresa's non existent bollocks. You are quite correct that circumstances could arise that would mitigate Brexit as our biggest threat. I, for one, haven't ruled out the arrival of the Vogan fleet at any point in our future as I don't have a crystal ball and Stephen Hawking didn't mention much about the Vogan Fleet in many, if any at all, of his lectures on understanding Space, The Universe and Everything so it remains impossible to rule out.

 

My side hasn't arrived on the Political scene yet. It's not time.

[SpruceBringsteen]

19 minutes ago, Hasselhoff said:

Your side will soon be backing "Leave UK" and trying to argue the complete opposite of what they did when being against Leave EU. Looking forward to the "screeching u-turns" as Nicola would say.

 

Not sure how that's any different from the "taking back control" anti-EU dafties being mad against Scotland taking back control, tbh.

[Hasselhoff]

6 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

Not sure how that's any different from the "taking back control" anti-EU dafties being mad against Scotland taking back control, tbh.

 

Majority of Scotland voted to remain in the UK and so the stance of Remain in the UK will be entirely consistent for them. Try and remain in unions with your biggest trading partners and people who you share common bonds with such as currency, language and attitudes. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

 

Stats suggest up to a third of Yes voters voted Leave too and so their vote is not guaranteed if they refuse to be hypocritical. 

[Sraman]

Just now, Hasselhoff said:

 

Majority of Scotland voted to remain in the UK and so the stance of Remain in the UK will be entirely consistent for them. Try and remain in unions with your biggest trading partners and people who you share common bonds with such as currency, language and attitudes. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

 

Stats suggest up to a third of Yes voters voted Leave too and so their vote is not guaranteed if they refuse to be hypocritical. 

 

It's not two wrongs, it's one wrong and a correction.

 

If you believe a third of Yes voters voted for Independence solely to escape the EU, you may be a bit disappointed.

 

 

[SpruceBringsteen]

1 minute ago, Hasselhoff said:

Majority of Scotland voted to remain in the UK and so the stance of Remain in the UK will be entirely consistent for them. Try and remain in unions with your biggest trading partners and people who you share common bonds with such as currency, language and attitudes. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

 

Stats suggest up to a third of Yes voters voted Leave too and so their vote is not guaranteed if they refuse to be hypocritical. 

 

Not sure how it's hypocritical to want to remain in the EU, yet for Scotland to be independent.

 

Unless of course it's because you actually believe the EU is some loony dictatorship that passes down all these rules that ruin our lives.

 

Spoiler

Pro-tip: They don't

 

[Hasselhoff]

Being 

9 minutes ago, SpruceBringsteen said:

 

Not sure how it's hypocritical to want to remain in the EU, yet for Scotland to be independent.

 

Unless of course it's because you actually believe the EU is some loony dictatorship that passes down all these rules that ruin our lives.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Pro-tip: They don't

 

 

You think the UK pass down rules that ruin our lives?

[shaun.lawson]

3 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

 

1. I believe The UK government is more competent than the Scottish government. 

 

2. Challenge for you - Name the best 5 politicians Scotland has to offer - once you do this,  you will see how short we are of any quality in comparison to the UK government which can pull from the best of Scotland, Wales, NI and England.

 

1.

 

2.

 

This is the most incompetent UK government in modern history - and it's not even close. The world watches on in disbelief at what we've become. You yourself acknowledge their grotesque incompetence when describing Windrush and benefit sanctions as "mistakes" (as well as unbelievably defending the rape clause, and food banks, and all the rest of it).

 

Yes, there are some good politicians in the UK. Dominic Grieve or Stella Creasy to give two examples. They're on the backbenches, because their parties have both lost the plot. And it's precisely because Tory and Labour have lost the plot that the SNP, through two highly effective leaders, have been able to dominate. 

 

By and large, the SNP has governed with competence. Yes, there are plenty of areas of concern - but the Tories are on a whole other planet of incompetence. And, I might add, pure wickedness and cruelty too.

[Doogz]

1 hour ago, Sraman said:

 

Overnight, according to Hasselhoff. 

 

Realistically, Brexit seems to be taking an age and a half. Realistically, I can't see Scottish Independence taking anywhere near as long for two reasons. 1. It doesn't take that long for us to declare Independence and 2. You can bet your bottom dollar that as soon as we do Westminster will want it as quick and as painless as possible. Security, as you said. Realistically, I don't see any reason why we would have to wait to re-join the world. Realistically I cannot see any obstacles for re-joining the EU in some way. Realistically I cannot see any obstacles to continuing to trade with rUK after Independence.

Using the word "realistically" a lot sadly doesn't make your answer realistic or considered. Scotland becoming independent from the rest of the UK is going to be a much more complex process than Brexit:

The United Kingdom has been a union a hell of a lot longer than Europe as a result splitting up is going to take a long time to agree. How will our existing assets and debts be split? How will all the institutions (public & private) operate ongoing? If we leave the UK can we keep whatever trade deals the UK have negotiated post Brexit (both with and outside the EU) or do we have to negotiate new deals ? 

What currency will we use and for how long before moving to the Euro?

What impact will all these things have on property values, savings and pensions?

Your simplistic answer amounts to little less than - "Don't worry about the details - it'll all turn out nice in the end" and doesn't fill me with much confidence.

I'm sure a finacial services industry will still exist in Edinburgh after Brexit and after independence - but it is shrinking now, all signs from my 25 years experience are it will continue to do so and will take many years to recover from continuing change and uncertainty.

My skills are transferable to other industries but is thers any chance they will still be hiring aftet Indy? They currentlt don't pay as much as Financial services - so I'm either earning less ( and Govt collecting less tax from me as a result) or I can continue earning the same and move to another job in the EU. 

[Sraman]

38 minutes ago, Doogz said:

Using the word "realistically" a lot sadly doesn't make your answer realistic or considered. Scotland becoming independent from the rest of the UK is going to be a much more complex process than Brexit:

The United Kingdom has been a union a hell of a lot longer than Europe as a result splitting up is going to take a long time to agree. How will our existing assets and debts be split? How will all the institutions (public & private) operate ongoing? If we leave the UK can we keep whatever trade deals the UK have negotiated post Brexit (both with and outside the EU) or do we have to negotiate new deals ? 

What currency will we use and for how long before moving to the Euro?

What impact will all these things have on property values, savings and pensions?

Your simplistic answer amounts to little less than - "Don't worry about the details - it'll all turn out nice in the end" and doesn't fill me with much confidence.

I'm sure a finacial services industry will still exist in Edinburgh after Brexit and after independence - but it is shrinking now, all signs from my 25 years experience are it will continue to do so and will take many years to recover from continuing change and uncertainty.

My skills are transferable to other industries but is thers any chance they will still be hiring aftet Indy? They currentlt don't pay as much as Financial services - so I'm either earning less ( and Govt collecting less tax from me as a result) or I can continue earning the same and move to another job in the EU. 

 

Percentage of land mass. Sorted. In a separate kind of way(?). Sorted. Do we want to keep them or do we want to negotiate our own deal? They may not stack up to being good for an Independent Scotland. Sorted.

 

You're the one moving to Krakow. Let us know how you get on with the Euro, it will help us decide when the time comes. Sorted.

 

A property will still be a property and, unless someone tries to throw spanners in the works for the sake of pretending to have massive bollocks, there won't be too much change to your savings and pensions. Sorted.

 

You want Politicians to sort out the details? Or just me, a random bloke off the internet? No wonder your vision is so full of dread and despair.

 

I'm extremely happy for you that, so far, you have managed to go through your life without ever having been hit (POW! Right in the kisser. Yep. That's exactly how it feels.) by political decisions. For others that kind of life is just a pie in the sky dream. Which brings you back to chasing those Euros again. Financial services you say, "the training has been successful comrade, always chase the buck, never get caught with it. Hahahaha..." I like the idea that everybody should get paid massive amounts so that we all pay massive amounts of tax. We'd be rich in no time . Simplistic views are good although there is always the exception which proves the rule.

 

 

 

 

[Thunderstruck]

3 hours ago, Sraman said:

 

So it's in everyone's interests to get both over and done with as soon as possible. Just as well Nicola is sticking to her guns and setting the wheels in motion for a second referendum to take place around about the same time as Brexit is delivered. Get them both over and done with so that everyone can get back to stability. 

 

Referendums are now utterly devalued as a means of settling a constitutional issue; maybe any issue. In the space of a couple of years we have had two that had a clamour for a re-run almost before the Counting Staff had caught up on their sleep. 

 

The status of the “Edinburgh Agreement” was been debated at length with disputes over whether it is legally binding on both parties or simply a pact to be honoured or, as is now obvious, not.

 

Therefore, by not abiding by the legitimate and clear popular decision we have, at the very least, a breach of honour. A breach which does not reflect at all well on the party in power in Scotland - a party with aspirations to become the parliament of a sovereign state. 

 

If we have another in Scotland that ends up with a similar or higher percentage voting to remain in the U.K., will that be the end of the matter? I suggest that we already know the answer. 

 

If the result was to be reversed, should we expect a third to get “best of three”?

 

Meanwhile Rome burns while Nero fiddles. 

 

 

[Sraman]

15 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

Referendums are now utterly devalued as a means of settling a constitutional issue; maybe any issue. In the space of a couple of years we have had two that had a clamour for a re-run almost before the Counting Staff had caught up on their sleep. 

 

The status of the “Edinburgh Agreement” was been debated at length with disputes over whether it is legally binding on both parties or simply a pact to be honoured or, as is now obvious, not.

 

Therefore, by not abiding by the legitimate and clear popular decision we have, at the very least, a breach of honour. A breach which does not reflect at all well on the party in power in Scotland - a party with aspirations to become the parliament of a sovereign state. 

 

If we have another in Scotland that ends up with a similar or higher percentage voting to remain in the U.K., will that be the end of the matter? I suggest that we already know the answer. 

 

If the result was to be reversed, should we expect a third to get “best of three”?

 

Meanwhile Rome burns while Nero fiddles. 

 

 

 

 

As an attack on the Scottish Parliament in favour of Westminster, bringing up "a breach of honour" is not the route I would have chosen to go down. No more to say on that one.

 

Referendums/Referendi/Referendum were not of our making. It was not us that came up with that idea and thought it was good for a bit of a laugh. Who was that again?

 

If you mean: Will the SNP stop campaigning for an Independent Scotland? Then the logically stupid answer to the "stupid question" is "Yes, of course they will. They will even send a member round to make sure you've had your cocoa and are tucked up in bed nicely for the night."

 

Nero done a runner. Short memory for one who stands up for all that history and tradition nonsense.

[Doogz]

13 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

Percentage of land mass. Sorted. In a separate kind of way(?). Sorted. Do we want to keep them or do we want to negotiate our own deal? They may not stack up to being good for an Independent Scotland. Sorted.

 

You're the one moving to Krakow. Let us know how you get on with the Euro, it will help us decide when the time comes. Sorted.

 

A property will still be a property and, unless someone tries to throw spanners in the works for the sake of pretending to have massive bollocks, there won't be too much change to your savings and pensions. Sorted.

 

You want Politicians to sort out the details? Or just me, a random bloke off the internet? No wonder your vision is so full of dread and despair.

 

I'm extremely happy for you that, so far, you have managed to go through your life without ever having been hit (POW! Right in the kisser. Yep. That's exactly how it feels.) by political decisions. For others that kind of life is just a pie in the sky dream. Which brings you back to chasing those Euros again. Financial services you say, "the training has been successful comrade, always chase the buck, never get caught with it. Hahahaha..." I like the idea that everybody should get paid massive amounts so that we all pay massive amounts of tax. We'd be rich in no time . Simplistic views are good although there is always the exception which proves the rule.

 

 

 

 

Well done - once again you ignore the details and just assume everything is going to be easy and work out fine. I'm not expecting you personally to come up with solutions to all the challenges an Independent Scotland will face - I'm trying, pointlessly it seems, to get you to accept there will be challenges and these will not easily be overcome by blind faith alone. We should at least try to learn from the mistakes currently being demonstrated during Brexit - try to identify this challenges in advance so we can an educated choice if Indy is worth all the risks and if it is, plan in advance how best we can overcome these challenges. Sticking your fingers in your ears, ignoring the issues and assuming everything will just be ok is part of the reason Indy failed last time.

But you're good at assuming things - not much change to my savings or pension, thats a relief then - but what are you basing this on? Blind faith? Anything ?

 

[JamboX2]

1 hour ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

1.

 

2.

 

This is the most incompetent UK government in modern history - and it's not even close. The world watches on in disbelief at what we've become. You yourself acknowledge their grotesque incompetence when describing Windrush and benefit sanctions as "mistakes" (as well as unbelievably defending the rape clause, and food banks, and all the rest of it).

 

Yes, there are some good politicians in the UK. Dominic Grieve or Stella Creasy to give two examples. They're on the backbenches, because their parties have both lost the plot. And it's precisely because Tory and Labour have lost the plot that the SNP, through two highly effective leaders, have been able to dominate. 

 

By and large, the SNP has governed with competence. Yes, there are plenty of areas of concern - but the Tories are on a whole other planet of incompetence. And, I might add, pure wickedness and cruelty too.

 

So you can't name 5 then?

18 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

 

As an attack on the Scottish Parliament in favour of Westminster, bringing up "a breach of honour" is not the route I would have chosen to go down. No more to say on that one.

 

Referendums/Referendi/Referendum were not of our making. It was not us that came up with that idea and thought it was good for a bit of a laugh. Who was that again?

 

If you mean: Will the SNP stop campaigning for an Independent Scotland? Then the logically stupid answer to the "stupid question" is "Yes, of course they will. They will even send a member round to make sure you've had your cocoa and are tucked up in bed nicely for the night."

 

Nero done a runner. Short memory for one who stands up for all that history and tradition nonsense.

 

If they were defeated in a second vote then they will be utterly devalued like the Bloc Quebecois were after they're second defeat.

 

There is a bit of duplicity around the referendum issue in terms of using referendums in the manner we have - i.e. no super majority or turnout requirement that other nations use. 38% of the people as whole voted for Brexit. And we're being led up the garden path with opponents rightly clamouring for a vote on the deal. Except for the SNP who fear backing a second Brexit vote would either  (1) stop Brexit and undermine their apparent business case for independence and (2) force them to do similar should they ever win a vote.

 

Quite frankly it is tiresome stuff. Sooner we're beyond all this the better.

[SpruceBringsteen]

2 hours ago, Hasselhoff said:

Being 

 

You think the UK pass down rules that ruin our lives?

 

I don't think they're helpful towards lives, no. In fact, they seem rather keen on ending a lot of them.

[Thunderstruck]

Referendums and referenda have come to be interchangeable in modern usage. I’ll leave you to read up on Latin roots, gerund and gerundive. 

 

Fir your reference a piece where Alex Salmond called for a Referendum - seems more of a demand than accepting something foisted upon him. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16478121

 

That particular Nero certainly “legged it” albeit with a But if help from his constituents. Legged it all the way into the arms of Putin. 

 

Our current Nero is still fiddling away but run she will - ‘tis only a matter of time. 

[Sraman]

1 minute ago, Doogz said:

Well done - once again you ignore the details and just assume everything is going to be easy and work out fine. I'm not expecting you personally to come up with solutions to all the challenges an Independent Scotland will face - I'm trying, pointlessly it seems, to get you to accept there will be challenges and these will not easily be overcome by blind faith alone. We should at least try to learn from the mistakes currently being demonstrated during Brexit - try to identify this challenges in advance so we can an educated choice if Indy is worth all the risks and if it is, plan in advance how best we can overcome these challenges. Sticking your fingers in your ears, ignoring the issues and assuming everything will just be ok is part of the reason Indy failed last time.

But you're good at assuming things - not much change to my savings or pension, thats a relief then - but what are you basing this on? Blind faith? Anything ?

 

 

 

Do you think we aren't noticing the mistakes during Brexit? There's that many, I've even spotted a few in Lunxit (nah that doesnae work does it).There are challenges in everything we do, we overcome, history  tells us this (there it is folks the Kickback catchphrase  ), and to be serious, why keep putting up obstacles when there are none. They are just a lot of what ifs. What if your wife gets pregnant with an unexpected child, will Westminster be your best bet, or an Independent Scotland? Is just as viable a political concern as all you guys and your money money money talk. As long as the money's sorted, phew! Thank goodness for that. I thought I would have to postpone my early retirement for a minute there.

 

I haven't ignored the details. You have made up a set of circumstances in an imaginary future of your own choosing. You have yet to provide enough data relating to this imaginary future for me to delve into the details of said imaginary future and propose any meaningful solutions to the imaginary obstacles your head has imagined.

 

This next bit is a guess, but I think it's a pretty good one. After 25 years experience, I'm gonna guess that you're good at your job. On the ball and up with the latest craic and I'm gonna guess that a lot of your colleagues, in all the different departments, are in a similar position to you. Experience counts for a lot. An experienced workforce, at the cutting edge of Banking practices with infrastructure already in place, located in one of the top ten in the World locations. It would be silly not to utilise these resources. Don't get me wrong, krakow is a nice place as well but would you be welcome after Brexit? See, again, it is Brexit that is your nemesis not Independence.

[Sraman]

4 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

So you can't name 5 then?

 

If they were defeated in a second vote then they will be utterly devalued like the Bloc Quebecois were after they're second defeat.

 

There is a bit of duplicity around the referendum issue in terms of using referendums in the manner we have - i.e. no super majority or turnout requirement that other nations use. 38% of the people as whole voted for Brexit. And we're being led up the garden path with opponents rightly clamouring for a vote on the deal. Except for the SNP who fear backing a second Brexit vote would either  (1) stop Brexit and undermine their apparent business case for independence and (2) force them to do similar should they ever win a vote.

 

Quite frankly it is tiresome stuff. Sooner we're beyond all this the better.

 

I was asked to name my top 5 Scottish politicians  I couldn't believe it, it was like a psychodelic interview for a version of Smash Hits from another reality man. Has mushroom season come early this year?

 

Utterly devalued by people who hold no value in them to begin with? Doesnae really count for much.

 

The only interest I have in the duplicity around the referendum issue is how to exploit it to further the Independence movement. As I say it wasn't our doing but it is out the bag and is there as a tool to be utilised, or not, as the case may be. You could say it's coming back to bite them on the bum. Silly Billies.

 

Welcome to Westminster. Glad you are finally coming round to my way of thinking.

[shaun.lawson]

3 minutes ago, JamboX2 said:

 

So you can't name 5 then?

 

 

In Scotland in recent years, I'd describe Salmond, Sturgeon, Robertson and Davidson as effective performers. In Westminster, I don't think there's a single figure on either front bench I'd put in the same bracket. All the good ones (here's two more: David Lammy or Rory Stewart) are on the backbenches, isolated from their leadership.

 

It didn't used to be this way. For Labour's Big Beasts of Blair, Brown, Cook or Mowlam, read the Tories' equivalents of Major, Clarke, Heseltine or Hurd. These were serious politicians. What we have now are not one, but two astonishingly unserious frontbenches packed with closed-minded idiots. And a dead, decomposing centre party in between.

 

Scottish Labour, meanwhile, have been led by Donald Dewar, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Wendy Alexander, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont, Kezia Dugdale and now Richard Leonard. Only one of these figures - the first - was a serious figure of substantial repute. Most of the rest have been joke figures, leading a joke party. A consequence of Scottish Labour never treating devolution with anything like the seriousness or commitment required.

 

If Richard Leonard is the answer, JamboX2, what was the question?

 

[Sraman]

12 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

Referendums and referenda have come to be interchangeable in modern usage. I’ll leave you to read up on Latin roots, gerund and gerundive. 

 

Fir your reference a piece where Alex Salmond called for a Referendum - seems more of a demand than accepting something foisted upon him. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-16478121

 

That particular Nero certainly “legged it” albeit with a But if help from his constituents. Legged it all the way into the arms of Putin. 

 

Our current Nero is still fiddling away but run she will - ‘tis only a matter of time. 

 

 

I'm no that interested in the correct latin. I'll leave that up to the specialists at Heriots and the likes. There's an idea! We could use specialists in each department to sweat the small stuff! Sorry, that was another poster.

 

As I say it wasn't us. Westminster had to give the nod, and that's all you need to know.

 

A Tory legging it to Putin? Who'd've thunk it? More connections than a billion pin plug them Tory lot and old Putin.

 

Another Nero running away yet you still hold to the premise of Westminster good, Scotland bad? Or is my job complete? Do I have another convert? Remember tis not time for our lot to hit the political stage just yet but patience people. Patience

 

[JamboX2]

31 minutes ago, Sraman said:

 

I was asked to name my top 5 Scottish politicians  I couldn't believe it, it was like a psychodelic interview for a version of Smash Hits from another reality man. Has mushroom season come early this year?

 

Utterly devalued by people who hold no value in them to begin with? Doesnae really count for much.

 

The only interest I have in the duplicity around the referendum issue is how to exploit it to further the Independence movement. As I say it wasn't our doing but it is out the bag and is there as a tool to be utilised, or not, as the case may be. You could say it's coming back to bite them on the bum. Silly Billies.

 

Welcome to Westminster. Glad you are finally coming round to my way of thinking.

 

As Attlee said the referendum is the tool of the dictator and despot. Vox pop gone mad.

[JamboX2]

47 minutes ago, shaun.lawson said:

 

In Scotland in recent years, I'd describe Salmond, Sturgeon, Robertson and Davidson as effective performers. In Westminster, I don't think there's a single figure on either front bench I'd put in the same bracket. All the good ones (here's two more: David Lammy or Rory Stewart) are on the backbenches, isolated from their leadership.

 

Rory Stewart is a minister and Lammy is having his day in the sun in an otherwise dull period for Labour. But I agree he deserves to be a front bencher after his recent work.

 

Which Robertson?

 

Quote

 

It didn't used to be this way. For Labour's Big Beasts of Blair, Brown, Cook or Mowlam, read the Tories' equivalents of Major, Clarke, Heseltine or Hurd. These were serious politicians. What we have now are not one, but two astonishingly unserious frontbenches packed with closed-minded idiots. And a dead, decomposing centre party in between.

 

With some exceptions you are not far wrong.

 

Quote

 

Scottish Labour, meanwhile, have been led by Donald Dewar, Henry McLeish, Jack McConnell, Wendy Alexander, Iain Gray, Johann Lamont, Kezia Dugdale and now Richard Leonard. Only one of these figures - the first - was a serious figure of substantial repute. Most of the rest have been joke figures, leading a joke party. A consequence of Scottish Labour never treating devolution with anything like the seriousness or commitment required.

 

If Richard Leonard is the answer, JamboX2, what was the question?

 

 

Think that is unfair on Jack McConnell. He pioneered some pretty major reforms as both a Minister and First Minister and has since then devoted his time to charitable causes, global access to education and to international development. Much of what the SNP proclaim to defend as the fruits og "unique Scottish social democracy" Jack's administrations brought in. So I would except him. Always had respect for Wendy too - a great thinker and good Minister who also excelled as a Parliamentary Convener.

 

The question was who should lead Scottish Labour btw.

 

There is an interesting issue regarding Holyrood and the calibre therein though. It's a lower quality pool of people. Take the SNP for example - to parallel with the Scottish Labour issue you rightly highlighted. At Westminster they've the likes of Black, Cherry, Thlewiss, Hendry, McDonald, Blackman and Shepherd. Really articulate, thoughtful and forthright persons. Whilst in Holyrood you've got Dornan, Yousaf, the Ewings, Constance, Cunninghame, Wilson... sheep quite frankly who are about as interesting as a brick wall. I'd go as far to say some of the 56's deadwood were ejected in 2017.

 

I think Westminster brings the best out of some politicians for some reason. Perhaps because they treat it as a profession not a tribal matter down there. Perhaps because the Parliamentary debating rules are different and debates longer allowing more thoughtful submissions. I do think this will be detrimental for the SNP once they need to look beyond Sturgeon and Swinney - see the Depute Leadership race for that! 

 

But here's a thought - the SNP at Holyrood have "strict loyalty" concept. Swinney spoke of it in this recent interview (see below). To me this stifles creativity, growth as a politician and the testing of policy as if you're over bearingly loyal then what else are you to do but nod along? 

 

http://www.holyrood.com/articles/inside-politics/john-swinney-political-leadership-not-tea-party

Edited May 24, 2018 by JamboX2