Don Dan Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/ways-and-means/ What exactly do we need independence for? Thanks for posting that link, very informative and factually correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I'm against fracking, I don't see the need for it given our small population. After all we are too wee to worry about it given the Yoon rhetoric. But never mind, guess you must have missed this story that was announced in Feb. It's been given the green light. http://grebeproject.eu/2017/02/24/new-norway-scotland-electricity-cable-proposed/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39080305 It's normal practice to fracture offshore oil wells and a lot of current production depends on it. Will the SNP ban it offshore also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 It's normal practice to fracture offshore oil wells and a lot of current production depends on it. Will the SNP ban it offshore also? Your post could read that you are in favour of fracking on-shore. How long has the oil industry been fracking oil wells in Scotlands waters? Should give you the answer to your question really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Your post could read that you are in favour of fracking on-shore. How long has the oil industry been fracking oil wells in Scotlands waters? Should give you the answer to your question really. Since the 70s. Hundreds of fraccs, no problems. Did a few myself. I am in favour of fracking but I don't see much potential in Scotland as the volumes are not there. England however has massive onshore hydrocarbon deposits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Since the 70s. Hundreds of fraccs, no problems. Did a few myself. I am in favour of fracking but I don't see much potential in Scotland as the volumes are not there. England however has massive onshore hydrocarbon deposits. Let England bash on, it will need it. We can sell them clean drinking water after. It'll be worth more than oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Since the 70s. Hundreds of fraccs, no problems. Did a few myself. I am in favour of fracking but I don't see much potential in Scotland as the volumes are not there. England however has massive onshore hydrocarbon deposits. Fracking off-shore since the 70's. OK, so why would the SNP ban it off-shore after 40 odd years of doing it? On-shore fracking (as far as I understand it) is not without its problems environmentally, which is why organisations such as Greenpeace are against it. Seems a different thing to frack for oil 100 miles offshore below a 100Mtr deep sea than it is 300Mtrs below your house! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Fracking off-shore since the 70's. OK, so why would the SNP ban it off-shore after 40 odd years of doing it? On-shore fracking (as far as I understand it) is not without its problems environmentally, which is why organisations such as Greenpeace are against it. Seems a different thing to frack for oil 100 miles offshore below a 100Mtr deep sea than it is 300Mtrs below your house! Agreed there is a difference in impact but I was pointing out that the activity itself is proven and has a long track record of safety which should be considered in deciding whether to proceed onshore.. At least folk should be aware of the evidence. No? Anyway non-issue for Scotland if few material targets anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Agreed there is a difference in impact but I was pointing out that the activity itself is proven and has a long track record of safety which should be considered in deciding whether to proceed onshore.. At least folk should be aware of the evidence. No? Anyway non-issue for Scotland if few material targets anyway. Wind farms bad because they can be seen. Fracking good because it's out of sight/out of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/36597451 It is an interesting proposal but, at present, it remains a plan. Contrast that with the 2GW Wirral Interconnector now under construction and due to go live this year, "bringing widespread benefits to UK plc". It is, in effect, a less obtrusive than pylons upgrade to the UK National Grid. All of the present day Interconnectors (Dutch, French and Irish) are useful for balancing demand against supply in both directions but are small scale in overall consumption. "Energy Security" is having assurance of supply without significant reliance on external energy providers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Wind farms bad because they can be seen. Fracking good because it's out of sight/out of mind. I didn't say that at all. As usual you deflect. I am OK with wind farms although they are exceptionally inefficient and require subsidy to be effective. Plenty landowners have made a packet out of them though. Fracking is a Red Herring for Scotland. SNP can ban it if they want. INEOS may not be so happy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstruck Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Since the 70s. Hundreds of fraccs, no problems. Did a few myself. I am in favour of fracking but I don't see much potential in Scotland as the volumes are not there. England however has massive onshore hydrocarbon deposits. Does that include the 4 gigatonnes of coal? Coal Seam Gassification seems like a sensible way to exploit that resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I didn't say that at all. As usual you deflect. I am OK with wind farms although they are exceptionally inefficient and require subsidy to be effective. Plenty landowners have made a packet out of them though. Fracking is a Red Herring for Scotland. SNP can ban it if they want. INEOS may not be so happy though. You better explain after the initial set up cost how a single turbine is inefficient. If you drive about Scotland, many farmers have installed personal ones on their land nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Potter Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I didn't say that at all. As usual you deflect. I am OK with wind farms although they are exceptionally inefficient and require subsidy to be effective. Plenty landowners have made a packet out of them though. Fracking is a Red Herring for Scotland. SNP can ban it if they want. INEOS may not be so happy though. I dont understand that subsidy thing. Pay for a turbine and install it Wind turns turbine and you get electricity What's the subsidy for? Is it all to do with pay-in tarrifs or something? If so, why is there a pay in tarrif in the first place? Surely if theres power to be had thats clean, efficient and relatively inexpensive after initial investment (wind, solar, wave, Hydro), why would folk NOT want to be behind that? Why continually charge for something that is free and readily available such as wind and daylight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) I dont understand that subsidy thing. Pay for a turbine and install it Wind turns turbine and you get electricity What's the subsidy for? Is it all to do with pay-in tarrifs or something? If so, why is there a pay in tarrif in the first place? Surely if theres power to be had thats clean, efficient and relatively inexpensive after initial investment (wind, solar, wave, Hydro), why would folk NOT want to be behind that? Why continually charge for something that is free and readily available such as wind and daylight? I think he means that government grants were issued to get the scheme up and running. A bit like any other major national infrastructure project through out history. He'll be claiming the new Forth Crossing is subsidised next. Pity he's not mentioning the Chinese state subsidising the new nuclear reactors on the South coast of England. Edited March 8, 2017 by Space Mackerel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I think he means that government grants were issued to get the scheme up and running. A bit like any other major national infrastructure project through out history. He'll be claiming the new Forth Crossing is subsidised next. Pity he's not mentioning the Chinese state subsidising the new nuclear reactors on the South coast of England. Deflecting again as always. Wind turbines are exceptionally inefficient for the simple reason that they depend on an unpredictable input. The wind. You can build 25,000 more of them if you want but on a calm day they don't produce a single Watt. In fact they consume power on calm days. That is why they are inefficient and ineffective. Alternative base load power supply will always be needed. Tidal power is a better option. But ignore this as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Does that include the 4 gigatonnes of coal? Coal Seam Gassification seems like a sensible way to exploit that resource. It is an option but incredibly expensive and with huge environmental impact. Would need hundreds of fracked wells, maybe thousands. Many in or near inhabited areas The economic and low environmental impact option is to mine the coal and extract the gas at surface. Then you get the gas and the coal. History repeats itself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Deflecting again as always. Wind turbines are exceptionally inefficient for the simple reason that they depend on an unpredictable input. The wind. You can build 25,000 more of them if you want but on a calm day they don't produce a single Watt. In fact they consume power on calm days. That is why they are inefficient and ineffective. Alternative base load power supply will always be needed. Tidal power is a better option. But ignore this as usual. Thanks for stating the obvious but these are located high up on hills etc and it is Scotland we live in after all Is Scotland the only country that's embraced wind technology to part meet its energy demands? I'm fairly sure on my travels I've seen them of the coast of Spain and Holland. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) Deflecting again as always. Wind turbines are exceptionally inefficient for the simple reason that they depend on an unpredictable input. The wind. You can build 25,000 more of them if you want but on a calm day they don't produce a single Watt. In fact they consume power on calm days. That is why they are inefficient and ineffective. Alternative base load power supply will always be needed. Tidal power is a better option. But ignore this as usual. Inefficient and ineffective sounds a bit harsh. I get your point but how many days a year do they stand still? Cant be that many given the geography of them. Whats inefficient is the lack of power storage available to store unused power for when the wind is unavailable. That needs serious consideration. I agree that alternative load base power is also needed which is why I believe that everyone should have solar on their homes and we should embrace tidal and hydro power generation. Is Scotland there are a few good Hydro examples but surely there's room for much much more given the amount of lochs and mountains this small country has. EDIT: Just did a wee quick Google search on wind turbines: An average 1.5-MW turbine (26.9% capacity factor) would produce the same amount of electric energy as that used by almost 332 households over a year. It must be remembered, though, that wind power is intermittent and variable, so a wind turbine produces power at or above its annual average rate only 40% of the time. So it seems that if it runs at around 27% of the time it can power around 332 houses. Edited March 8, 2017 by Pans Jambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Thanks for stating the obvious but these are located high up on hills etc and it is Scotland we live in after all Is Scotland the only country that's embraced wind technology to part meet its energy demands? I'm fairly sure on my travels I've seen them of the coast of Spain and Holland. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro You asked me to explain why wind turbines are inefficient and when I do you say I'm stating the obvious! So yo knew all along? Anyway up here in leafy Deeside it was flat-calm this morning and the many turbines up here were at a standstill. Thankfully we have a backup so the kettle did boil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 You asked me to explain why wind turbines are inefficient and when I do you say I'm stating the obvious! So yo knew all along? Anyway up here in leafy Deeside it was flat-calm this morning and the many turbines up here were at a standstill. Thankfully we have a backup so the kettle did boil. Aye but see it's very windy down here in Scotland's garden in East Lothian so the turbines up in the Lammermuir's are almost taking off! Thus generating said power for your kettle this morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Inefficient and ineffective sounds a bit harsh. I get your point but how many days a year do they stand still? Cant be that many given the geography of them. Whats inefficient is the lack of power storage available to store unused power for when the wind is unavailable. That needs serious consideration. I agree that alternative load base power is also needed which is why I believe that everyone should have solar on their homes and we should embrace tidal and hydro power generation. Is Scotland there are a few good Hydro examples but surely there's room for much much more given the amount of lochs and mountains this small country has. The potential for Hydro is indeed massive and its a known technology with loads of uninhabited valleys up here to play with. Tidal is developing technology but has the advantage that it would be a consistent baseload supplier, unlike wind. But wind turbines are simply not effective enough. They were at a standstill this morning in sheep land but now the wind is picking up a bit they are moving slowly. But this is simply not sustainable. For me its hydro and develop tidal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) The potential for Hydro is indeed massive and its a known technology with loads of uninhabited valleys up here to play with. Tidal is developing technology but has the advantage that it would be a consistent baseload supplier, unlike wind. But wind turbines are simply not effective enough. They were at a standstill this morning in sheep land but now the wind is picking up a bit they are moving slowly. But this is simply not sustainable. For me its hydro and develop tidal. I agree a good mix is required. It makes sense. You cant deny that when the turbines are turning they are generating almost free, clean efficient energy. EDIT: Another wee Google find: How Much Energy Can One Wind Turbine Generate? The output of a wind turbine depends on the turbine's size and the wind's speed through the rotor. An average onshore wind turbine with a capacity of 2.5?3 MW can produce more than 6 million kWh in a year ? enough to supply 1,500 average EU households with electricity. An average offshore wind turbine of 3.6 MW can power more than 3,312 average EU households. Edited March 8, 2017 by Pans Jambo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Aye but see it's very windy down here in Scotland's garden in East Lothian so the turbines up in the Lammermuir's are almost taking off! Thus generating said power for your kettle this morning Just back from the toon centre, blowing a fair breeze there. Should put a turbine on top of Walter Scott monument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I agree a good mix is required. It makes sense. You cant deny that when the turbines are turning they are generating almost free, clean efficient energy. EDIT: Another wee Google find: How Much Energy Can One Wind Turbine Generate? The output of a wind turbine depends on the turbine's size and the wind's speed through the rotor. An average onshore wind turbine with a capacity of 2.5?3 MW can produce more than 6 million kWh in a year ? enough to supply 1,500 average EU households with electricity. An average offshore wind turbine of 3.6 MW can power more than 3,312 average EU households. Indeed- lets say 2000 households per turbine. Not much. Also add in the demand from the industrial sector and street lighting etc, and thats a big pile of turbines. My vote goes to Hydro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Indeed- lets say 2000 households per turbine. Not much. Also add in the demand from the industrial sector and street lighting etc, and thats a big pile of turbines. My vote goes to Hydro Scotland is going to be the most crowded country for wind turbines. The country now has 2,683 wind turbines capable of generating 5,115MW of electricity, although there are 282 more under construction and a further 2,202 with planning consent.15 Mar 2015 (must be close to 3000 turbines in Scotland now - so enough for 6 Million homes!) My vote goes to Hydro too, along with wind, solar, tidal and any other non carbon burning type of power generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 6 million homes, that should be enough by now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 6 million homes, that should be enough by now As long as its windy on the day. But don't forget industry and Tynie floodlights. So add in another 3000 turbines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 As long as its windy on the day. But don't forget industry and Tynie floodlights. So add in another 3000 turbines. Go on, I dare you, say something positive about the country you were born in and inhabit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 There will be no more large onshore wind turbine developments in Scotland for the simple reason that renewable obligation certificates are no longer available from the UK government. Scottish Government are not willing to subsidise new developments either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 That nasty Tory Westminster government allocating the Scottish Government a further ?350m of spend this year in the budget. Wonder what the SNP will find wrong with the new announcement.....every day a new grievance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reaths17 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) Go on, I dare you, say something positive about the country you were born in and inhabit. thats no gonna be easy with you making us all look like ill informed idiots, and slaver on when someone puts a point to you and you cant answer. Edited March 8, 2017 by reaths17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Potter Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 That nasty Tory Westminster government allocating the Scottish Government a further ?350m of spend this year in the budget. Wonder what the SNP will find wrong with the new announcement.....every day a new grievance. Be a few in a spin over this, good move though, Nicola annouced indy 2 yet, another 20 odd million for the pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 There will be no more large onshore wind turbine developments in Scotland for the simple reason that renewable obligation certificates are no longer available from the UK government. Scottish Government are not willing to subsidise new developments either Why are they not investing in renewables now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 thats no gonna be easy with you making us all look like ill informed idiots, and slaver on when someone puts a point to you and you cant answer. So far I can remember, I've got to an expert in fracking, Nigerian or some other African country's internal politics and now windfarms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Why are they not investing in renewables now? They are, but they are putting more subsidy into offshore and wave/tidal. The only excess of wind in Scotland from now on will be from the SNP. Talking of wind , what an embarrassment from MP Mhairi Black this morning in parliament.....caught on camera mouthing to a government minister " you talk shite hen" .............completely unfit to govern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deesidejambo Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Go on, I dare you, say something positive about the country you were born in and inhabit. The Lorne Sausages are nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I like wind farms. I think they look fine. I often wonder if the people who go utterly tonto about them also get whipped up in to a ball of rage every time they pass an electricity pylon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reaths17 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 So far I can remember, I've got to an expert in fracking, Nigerian or some other African country's internal politics and now windfarms. oh good, you can tell us all about the environmental impact of this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I like wind farms. I think they look fine. I often wonder if the people who go utterly tonto about them also get whipped up in to a ball of rage every time they pass an electricity pylon. Blame the cloggys, they started the ball rolling [emoji53] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Blame the cloggys, they started the ball rolling [emoji53] Folk just like to moan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Folk just like to moan. It's all black in Yoon world, almost like they're a suppressed minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 It's all black in Yoon world, almost like they're a suppressed minority. The main reasons for me wanting independence are actually emotional and identity. I consider my self Scottish and don't have any great feelings or pride or identity in my Britishness. The financial arguments batted about play a very small part in it for me. I don't believe we will be fantastically better off or severely financially crippled by independence. I reckon we will balance out pretty much as we are now tbh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Blame the cloggys, they started the ball rolling [emoji53] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 As usual Space Cadet just adds more nonsense to the "Even More SNP Nonsense" thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Mackerel Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 The main reasons for me wanting independence are actually emotional and identity. I consider my self Scottish and don't have any great feelings or pride or identity in my Britishness. The financial arguments batted about play a very small part in it for me. I don't believe we will be fantastically better off or severely financially crippled by independence. I reckon we will balance out pretty much as we are now tbh. We'll be better off politically, culturally, socially and more than likely economically IMHO. And we'll get rid of the Scottish cringe factor that's prevalent amongst some on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Boy Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 We'll be better off politically, culturally, socially and more than likely economically IMHO. And we'll get rid of the Scottish cringe factor that's prevalent amongst some on this thread. Must admit, the Scottish cringe is the attitude of a complete arsehole. So I hope you are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishTam10 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 The main reasons for me wanting independence are actually emotional and identity. I consider my self Scottish and don't have any great feelings or pride or identity in my Britishness. The financial arguments batted about play a very small part in it for me. I don't believe we will be fantastically better off or severely financially crippled by independence. I reckon we will balance out pretty much as we are now tbh. We'll be better off politically, culturally, socially and more than likely economically IMHO. And we'll get rid of the Scottish cringe factor that's prevalent amongst some on this thread. Scotland outside the UK would be financially worse off by ?billions, the day it starts. That means losing welfare state spending, libraries, and lots of things. It would probably mean raising taxes too. The financial arguments "batted" about are important, and until nationalism can provide a sensible, decent, realistic plan, then people won't vote to jump out of the frying pan. And the stuff about identity, is a red herring. Each of us identify with a lot of identities throughout our lives. Identity isn't fixed. It can be argued it doesn't even exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jambo lodge Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 We'll be better off politically, culturally, socially and more than likely economically IMHO. And we'll get rid of the Scottish cringe factor that's prevalent amongst some on this thread. The Scottish cringe factor comes from Mhairi Black and her colleagues..... " you talk shite hen" Makes me ashamed of the Scottish MPs in parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reaths17 Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 We'll be better off politically, culturally, socially and more than likely economically IMHO. And we'll get rid of the Scottish cringe factor that's prevalent amongst some on this thread. yeah, with glasgow running everything we'll all have to pick a religion. another piece of well thought out drivel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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