Brexit?

[jake]

The whole country isn't, but with inflation rising and wages not matching, there will be a sizable proportion of the country that are simply making ends meet.

 

I'm all for entrepreneurial spirit, but hopefully we don't strangle these start ups at birth due to the overarching climate.

 

Inflation went down last i heard.

[jake]

Thought Brexit and Trump was a vote against globalisation anyway?

 

In your world, a vote against globalisation means even greater globalisation, sum logic laddie.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Globalisation is not the global market.

 

Brains

[aussieh]

Globalisation is not the global market.

 

Brains

Here Jake, let's wait and see what happens when brexit and Trump become reality. Then we'll be in a position to judge and take action, or greet.

 

 

Funny how all doom and gloom brexit expert forecasts are shite and Indy Scotland are fact. No one knows jack about jack, as they have never happened before.

[Lee_Mellon]

Globalisation is not the global market.

Brains

Was it only Sunday when you said you were no longer going to engage with Space Cadet (3rd Class) Mackerel...

 

Anyway, I believe in a hard Brexit - no screwing around with "we'd still like to be in the single market." I voted to leave the European Union and for me, that meant all of the apparatus of the EU - the Parliament, the Commision and the Court of Justice. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner we're away from Jean-Claude Juncker and his attempts to create a super-state the better.

[Space Mackerel]

Was it only Sunday when you said you were no longer going to engage with Space Cadet (3rd Class) Mackerel...

 

Anyway, I believe in a hard Brexit - no screwing around with "we'd still like to be in the single market." I voted to leave the European Union and for me, that meant all of the apparatus of the EU - the Parliament, the Commision and the Court of Justice. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner we're away from Jean-Claude Juncker and his attempts to create a super-state the better.

 

From Twitter via the Poke via the FT

 

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/11/21/comment-reader-ft-gone-viral-nails-remainerleaver-brexit-row/

 

 

 

So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it?s practically verbatim:

 

Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers? left) ?WTF??

 

Leavers ?We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it?

 

Remainers ?But it?s not possible!?

 

Leavers ?The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.?

 

Remainers ?And do what exactly??

 

Leavers ?Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it?

 

Remainers ?But it?s not possible!?

 

Leavers ?Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.?

 

Remainers ?But even you don?t know how!?

 

Leavers ?That?s your problem, we?ve done our bit and voted, we?re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.?

 

Remainers ?Shouldn?t you do it??

 

Leavers ?It?s not up to us to work out the detail, it?s up to you experts.?

 

Remainers ?I thought you?d had enough of experts?

 

Leavers ?Remain experts.?

 

Remainers ?There are no Leave experts?

 

Leavers ?Then you?ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don?t want, we?ll eat you alive.?

 

Remainers ?But you don?t know what you want!?

 

Leavers ?We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.?

 

Remainers ?You?re delusional.?

 

Leavers ?We?re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn?t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don?t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They?re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.?

 

By Ishtar Ostaria

Source: ft.com

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Boris]

Le penn wont control it.

But a swing to the far right who are generally more euro sceptical and nationalist will in turn roll the EU back.

 

Boris i cannot see how you can argue that the EU has been on this route for 40 years.

 

Also to counter your argument of an EU thats some kind of buffer to torie rule here doesn't really hold if the continent swings further to the right.

 

We have all heard how the little englanders have embarrassed the uk.

Think that people are afraid to voice concerns over immigration because they are shouted down.

Well thats backfired .

 

So you admit that national governments can influence and change EU policy?  They can take charge, so to speak?

 

Did I say that the EU was a buffer to Tory rule?  There are certainly elements of EU legislation that the Tories don't like, but as you have said, Governments can influence the EU.

[jake]

So you admit that national governments can influence and change EU policy? They can take charge, so to speak?

 

Did I say that the EU was a buffer to Tory rule? There are certainly elements of EU legislation that the Tories don't like, but as you have said, Governments can influence the EU.

 

Yes governments can but the march towards a european state has been the mantra of centre right european polotics.

And left of centre.They have quashed any opposition and the bottom line is european law supercedes national law.

 

French austrian german and dutch political outlook is changing and its the far right that is leading.

So i wonder how much this new outlook will affect either the bteak up or moves to take back controls on borders.

 

And yes boris you have stated about the benefits of workers rights etc .

 

I understand why you picked me up on the point you did.

That also has a flip side for remainers who have an outlook similar to you.

Imagine an EU superstate controlled by the far right?

 

And thats the bottom line for me .

A superstate centralised power is a relic similar to the soviet union.

 

The actual facts show that the EU gets its own way by either ignoring national votes or making sure they get changed.

 

Anyway aside from all this i wonder if the same language will be used to describe the french german dutch austrian hungarian voters as was used to dezcribe the english.

[jake]

Was it only Sunday when you said you were no longer going to engage with Space Cadet (3rd Class) Mackerel...

 

Anyway, I believe in a hard Brexit - no screwing around with "we'd still like to be in the single market." I voted to leave the European Union and for me, that meant all of the apparatus of the EU - the Parliament, the Commision and the Court of Justice. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner we're away from Jean-Claude Juncker and his attempts to create a super-state the better.

 

I know i know.

[Rudolf's Mate]

From Twitter via the Poke via the FT

 

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/11/21/comment-reader-ft-gone-viral-nails-remainerleaver-brexit-row/

 

 

 

So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it?s practically verbatim:

 

Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers? left) ?WTF??

 

Leavers ?We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it?

 

Remainers ?But it?s not possible!?

 

Leavers ?The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.?

 

Remainers ?And do what exactly??

 

Leavers ?Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it?

 

Remainers ?But it?s not possible!?

 

Leavers ?Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.?

 

Remainers ?But even you don?t know how!?

 

Leavers ?That?s your problem, we?ve done our bit and voted, we?re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.?

 

Remainers ?Shouldn?t you do it??

 

Leavers ?It?s not up to us to work out the detail, it?s up to you experts.?

 

Remainers ?I thought you?d had enough of experts?

 

Leavers ?Remain experts.?

 

Remainers ?There are no Leave experts?

 

Leavers ?Then you?ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don?t want, we?ll eat you alive.?

 

Remainers ?But you don?t know what you want!?

 

Leavers ?We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.?

 

Remainers ?You?re delusional.?

 

Leavers ?We?re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn?t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don?t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They?re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.?

 

By Ishtar Ostaria

Source: ft.com

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Seems like an afwy lot of words for a tweet? Didn't know there was an actual comments section either?

[Nookie Bear]

From Twitter via the Poke via the FT

 

http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2016/11/21/comment-reader-ft-gone-viral-nails-remainerleaver-brexit-row/

 

 

 

So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it?s practically verbatim:

 

Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers? left) ?WTF??

 

Leavers ?We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it?

 

Remainers ?But it?s not possible!?

 

Leavers ?The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.?

 

Remainers ?And do what exactly??

 

Leavers ?Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it?

 

Remainers ?But it?s not possible!?

 

Leavers ?Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.?

 

Remainers ?But even you don?t know how!?

 

Leavers ?That?s your problem, we?ve done our bit and voted, we?re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.?

 

Remainers ?Shouldn?t you do it??

 

Leavers ?It?s not up to us to work out the detail, it?s up to you experts.?

 

Remainers ?I thought you?d had enough of experts?

 

Leavers ?Remain experts.?

 

Remainers ?There are no Leave experts?

 

Leavers ?Then you?ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don?t want, we?ll eat you alive.?

 

Remainers ?But you don?t know what you want!?

 

Leavers ?We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.?

 

Remainers ?You?re delusional.?

 

Leavers ?We?re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn?t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don?t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They?re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.?

 

By Ishtar Ostaria

Source: ft.com

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

These things are the cringe of the internet.

[Francis Albert]

Did the FT actually publish that drivel quoted by Space Mackerel? If so a nice illustration of the depths to which the media, even the so called quality press, have sunk in reporting Brexit.

[Boris]

Yes governments can but the march towards a european state has been the mantra of centre right european polotics.

And left of centre.They have quashed any opposition and the bottom line is european law supercedes national law.

 

French austrian german and dutch political outlook is changing and its the far right that is leading.

So i wonder how much this new outlook will affect either the bteak up or moves to take back controls on borders.

 

And yes boris you have stated about the benefits of workers rights etc .

 

I understand why you picked me up on the point you did.

That also has a flip side for remainers who have an outlook similar to you.

Imagine an EU superstate controlled by the far right?

 

And thats the bottom line for me .

A superstate centralised power is a relic similar to the soviet union.

 

The actual facts show that the EU gets its own way by either ignoring national votes or making sure they get changed.

 

Anyway aside from all this i wonder if the same language will be used to describe the french german dutch austrian hungarian voters as was used to dezcribe the english.

 

Or a relic similar to the British Empire.  Not sure why the old Soviet Union gets such a hard time, it's no different from any other state.  I guess my point was more to do with the argument about "taking back control" when there was already control within the confines of the EU.

 

Don't get me wrong, as I've stated before, there is/was plenty wrong with the EU and from a leftist perspective much to criticise and make a case for leaving.  My contention is that we have voted to leave but have been persuaded by the wrong arguments.

 

The rise of the right, petty minded nationalists, with an undercurrent of racial prejudice, is a worrying trend and says a lot about the liberal centrists who have helped let this breed.  If every state shrinks behinds its borders, promising all sorts to their people, but unable to deliver because essential the economic model will have remained, then you will get restless natives.  So do we expect Hungary, for example, to demand old, lost territory back?  That's when it gets rather scary.

[Francis Albert]

I see that after Tony Blair's promised intervention to try to stop Brexit a new group hoping to do the same has emerged, funded by Richard Branson and including Bob Geldof. Things definitely looking up for the Brexiters.

[Boris]

I see that after Tony Blair's promised intervention to try to stop Brexit a new group hoping to do the same has emerged, funded by Richard Branson and including Bob Geldof. Things definitely looking up for the Brexiters.

 

 

Quite!  If every there was a motley band of the old order, that's it!

 

On a slightly more serious note though, the likes of Farage, Fox, IDS, Gove etc are not exactly the "new order".

[Nookie Bear]

Or a relic similar to the British Empire.  Not sure why the old Soviet Union gets such a hard time, it's no different from any other state.  I guess my point was more to do with the argument about "taking back control" when there was already control within the confines of the EU.

 

Don't get me wrong, as I've stated before, there is/was plenty wrong with the EU and from a leftist perspective much to criticise and make a case for leaving.  My contention is that we have voted to leave but have been persuaded by the wrong arguments.

 

The rise of the right, petty minded nationalists, with an undercurrent of racial prejudice, is a worrying trend and says a lot about the liberal centrists who have helped let this breed.  If every state shrinks behinds its borders, promising all sorts to their people, but unable to deliver because essential the economic model will have remained, then you will get restless natives.  So do we expect Hungary, for example, to demand old, lost territory back?  That's when it gets rather scary.

 

Good post, as ever.

 

 

Quite!  If every there was a motley band of the old order, that's it!

 

On a slightly more serious note though, the likes of Farage, Fox, IDS, Gove etc are not exactly the "new order".

 

But i've deducted a point for failing to mention two epic bands in this post. New Order and Motley Crue, man !!

[Boris]

Good post, as ever.

 

 

But i've deducted a point for failing to mention two epic bands in this post. New Order and Motley Crue, man !!

 

Thank you.

 

I know, but I just couldn't!

[Space Mackerel]

These things are the cringe of the internet.

Maybe, but entirely accurate.

[jake]

Or a relic similar to the British Empire. Not sure why the old Soviet Union gets such a hard time, it's no different from any other state. I guess my point was more to do with the argument about "taking back control" when there was already control within the confines of the EU.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, as I've stated before, there is/was plenty wrong with the EU and from a leftist perspective much to criticise and make a case for leaving. My contention is that we have voted to leave but have been persuaded by the wrong arguments.

 

The rise of the right, petty minded nationalists, with an undercurrent of racial prejudice, is a worrying trend and says a lot about the liberal centrists who have helped let this breed. If every state shrinks behinds its borders, promising all sorts to their people, but unable to deliver because essential the economic model will have remained, then you will get restless natives. So do we expect Hungary, for example, to demand old, lost territory back? That's when it gets rather scary.

 

The british empire for all its faults pales in significance to the crimes commited by the soviet state.

Ffs boris.

You're intelligent .

The soviet union put to death more people than the british americans israel nazi germany combined.

You should read up on stalin .

 

What control do you refer to within the EU.

Do you regard the use of gun boats to deter economic refugees as control acceptable?

Yet you quickly label voters peacefully expressing their views as bigot racists who wish to leave the same organisation which implements this.

 

You say you are not impressed by the the EU but dont want to leave because the argument for leaving is wrong.

I take it thats because you feel it was done in an anti immigrant way.

 

Id argue that the uk is in fact a much more tolerant country than most of europe.

Backed up by reality.

Id argue that europe is in fact going to have a much bigger race relation problem .

Id argue we have won a watch getting out now.

 

You say the rise of the right is because the liberal centralist let this breed.

 

Some truth i suppose.

 

Id say its down to peoples fears being ignored and then dismissed as ignorant thickos .

They dont threaten violence or form into religious right wing racists.

They vote.

And still they are put down .

Put down by so called democrats

Put down by so called forward thinkers.

The same forward thinkers who stick up for right wing racist religious nuts just because they are not white.

 

Whats bizzare is that on the whole the uk is relatively a place thats safe for immigrants.

But to hear the disgraceful propaganda from the selfish middle class luvvies you would think its not.

[jake]

Maybe, but entirely accurate.

 

Please brains.

It took a fund manager from london stock exchange to stop an executive decision.

And it shows how baw deep we were in the advancement of the EU supertstate.

That was a crock of shit which you and your empty head drinks up .

[aussieh]

Please brains.

It took a fund manager from london stock exchange to stop an executive decision.

And it shows how baw deep we were in the advancement of the EU supertstate.

That was a crock of shit which you and your empty head drinks up .

You really have disappeared up your own arse. Spouting pish about empires and how mystic Jake can see a fascist EU. The Uk is now turning into the people it fought 70 years ago, and Scotland will be dragged into the cesspit.

[Space Mackerel]

Please brains.

It took a fund manager from london stock exchange to stop an executive decision.

And it shows how baw deep we were in the advancement of the EU supertstate.

That was a crock of shit which you and your empty head drinks up .

And a hairdresser.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Francis Albert]

Maybe, but entirely accurate.

Oh come on. Even you must have recognised it as satire rather than "entirely accurate". Oh well, maybe not.

[jake]

A maybe slightly OTT post but one on the whole I agree with

 

I know.

I apologise aussie

[Space Mackerel]

Oh come on. Even you must have recognised it as satire rather than "entirely accurate". Oh well, maybe not.

What's your take on it all FA? I'm bearing in mind you FoH economics back in the day too. [emoji2]

 

What's your super duper plans? R&D? Science? More kinda Sports Direct contracts for the mass unemployed?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JKBMod 6]

No more abuse on this thread please.

[Boris]

The british empire for all its faults pales in significance to the crimes commited by the soviet state.

Ffs boris.

You're intelligent .

The soviet union put to death more people than the british americans israel nazi germany combined.

You should read up on stalin .

 

What control do you refer to within the EU.

Do you regard the use of gun boats to deter economic refugees as control acceptable?

Yet you quickly label voters peacefully expressing their views as bigot racists who wish to leave the same organisation which implements this.

 

You say you are not impressed by the the EU but dont want to leave because the argument for leaving is wrong.

I take it thats because you feel it was done in an anti immigrant way.

 

Id argue that the uk is in fact a much more tolerant country than most of europe.

Backed up by reality.

Id argue that europe is in fact going to have a much bigger race relation problem .

Id argue we have won a watch getting out now.

 

You say the rise of the right is because the liberal centralist let this breed.

 

Some truth i suppose.

 

Id say its down to peoples fears being ignored and then dismissed as ignorant thickos .

They dont threaten violence or form into religious right wing racists.

They vote.

And still they are put down .

Put down by so called democrats

Put down by so called forward thinkers.

The same forward thinkers who stick up for right wing racist religious nuts just because they are not white.

 

Whats bizzare is that on the whole the uk is relatively a place thats safe for immigrants.

But to hear the disgraceful propaganda from the selfish middle class luvvies you would think its not.

 

There was more to the Soviet Union than simply Stalin, and I am familiar with his rule.  Over the 300 odd years of the British Empire, one could muse on the slavery, the rape and pillage of nations, the massacres of indiginous peoples, use of chemical weapons and it may not add up to those who died under Stalin's rule, but the im,pact is arguably more wide reaching.

 

Thanks for saying I'm intelligent though.

 

I can't recall labelling those who voted to leave the EU as "bigot racists", although undoubtedly some are.  As I've said before, there were a plethora of reasons people may have settled on in deciding how to vote.

 

The main reason I think that the leave argument was the wrong one was that those in charge of the leave campaign were not doing it out of some sort of benign sense of giving "back control" to the people, but rather an extreme right wing economic plan.  Without the EU they can get rid of workers rights, May has already U-turned on her plan to allow workers representation on boards.  The ?350m for the NHS being another ruse.  They are not espousing any "change", merely ramping up the already prevailent neo-liberal rhetoric.  Free trade, sounds good.  Will it happen?  Probably.  When?  Not going to happen immediately.  Meanwhile the economy suffers, public services will bear the brunt, which is rather convenient given the current incumbents view of the public sector.  Marketisation of services will continue apace, and the people whom they hoodwinked are those that will suffer.

 

I share your view that the UK is still relatively tolerant, but the way the media perpetuate myths about immigration can only stoke future tensions, aided and abetted by our politicians.  Farage's distasteful poster campaign, for example, or the calls for immediate repatriation by some sections of our community post referendum.  Actions like that did not seem to be widely condemned in the wider media.

 

Yet you raise a salient point of why should we have stayed given the mess the EU is in.  Perhaps we should have stayed to use our influence and tried to modify the EU?  To try to rebalance our economies to give those who feel dispossessed and alienated a sense of belonging?  Sadly, I fear all we have done is retreated to our island and left the rest of the continent to sort itself out which, imo, is remarkably short sighted if, as we are told, we are a World player, we should be using our diplomatic skills and muscle to help.  Because sooner or later we will have to face up to it.

 

Unfortunately, for decades we have shrunk from that argument and here we are now.

[Francis Albert]

What's your take on it all FA? I'm bearing in mind you FoH economics back in the day too. [emoji2]

 

What's your super duper plans? R&D? Science? More kinda Sports Direct contracts for the mass unemployed?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I am not sure I understand the question.

 

But if it is my take on Brexit, I was on balance a remainer, but one with little enthusiasm for, indeed aversion to,  the "ever closer union" of the EU.

 

The hysterical OTT reaction to defeat makes me embarrassed to belong in the "remain" camp. The idea for example that controlling your borders is racist is absurd - it would mean the EU and almost every country in the world is racist. (FWIW I think immigration has been hugely beneficial to the UK and one thing Edinburgh lacks is diversity - it would be a more interesting place if it had significant immigrant groups other than Eastern Europeans and English). The idea that it will be an economic disaster is also absurd. The devaluation of the pound already offsets any likely tariff on our exports and given the size of our trade deficit the increase in the cost of imports is probably a good thing in the long run.

 

I am a life long Labour supporter and would like to see Labour return to being a socialist party that could be electable - the Corbynist entrists on the hard left currently make that impossible.

 

One thing I can't understand is why Scottish Nationalists, who hold independence so dearly that they want to break up a (on the whole) successful 300 year Union should are so keen on ever closer union with nations we hold much less in common with than England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

I hope that sort of answers whatever your question was.

[Nookie Bear]

I am not sure I understand the question.

 

But if it is my take on Brexit, I was on balance a remainer, but one with little enthusiasm for, indeed aversion to,  the "ever closer union" of the EU.

 

The hysterical OTT reaction to defeat makes me embarrassed to belong in the "remain" camp. The idea for example that controlling your borders is racist is absurd - it would mean the EU and almost every country in the world is racist. (FWIW I think immigration has been hugely beneficial to the UK and one thing Edinburgh lacks is diversity - it would be a more interesting place if it had significant immigrant groups other than Eastern Europeans and English). The idea that it will be an economic disaster is also absurd. The devaluation of the pound already offsets any likely tariff on our exports and given the size of our trade deficit the increase in the cost of imports is probably a good thing in the long run.

 

I am a life long Labour supporter and would like to see Labour return to being a socialist party that could be electable - the Corbynist entrists on the hard left currently make that impossible.

 

One thing I can't understand is why Scottish Nationalists, who hold independence so dearly that they want to break up a (on the whole) successful 300 year Union should are so keen on ever closer union with nations we hold much less in common with than England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

 

I hope that sort of answers whatever your question was.

 

Why is that a 'given' ?

[Francis Albert]

Why is that a 'given' ?

It isn't a given, just my opinion.. Having lived in London for over 40 years it always strikes me how (excuse the pretentious word) mono-cultural Edinburgh is.

 

Since I was in the middle of a debate on here about how tolerant Scots are compared to the "racist" English, last time I was up I counted the number of non-white faces I saw in walking from Atholl Crescent to the West End, and from there to Tynecastle. I didn't need more than the fingers of one hand. That would be impossible in any English city and in almost every city in Europe and North America.

[Cade]

Chancellor having to borrow an extra ?122billion next year just to make ends meet. This is mostly due to the fall in the value of the pound and uncertainty in the business world brought about by the Brexit shambles.

 

They haven't even triggered Article 50 yet and we're skint already.

 

By the way, ?122billion divided by "?350million per week" works out at 348 weeks. So far, it's costing us nearly 7 times what they claimed we'd be saving.

 

[Nookie Bear]

It isn't a given, just my opinion.. Having lived in London for over 40 years it always strikes me how (excuse the pretentious word) mono-cultural Edinburgh is.

 

Since I was in the middle of a debate on here about how tolerant Scots are compared to the "racist" English, last time I was up I counted the number of non-white faces I saw in walking from Atholl Crescent to the West End, and from there to Tynecastle. I didn't need more than the fingers of one hand. That would be impossible in any English city and in almost every city in Europe and North America.

 

It's startling how different it is up here.

[Francis Albert]

Chancellor having to borrow an extra ?122billion next year just to make ends meet. This is mostly due to the fall in the value of the pound and uncertainty in the business world brought about by the Brexit shambles.

 

They haven't even triggered Article 50 yet and we're skint already.

 

By the way, ?122billion divided by "?350million per week" works out at 348 weeks. So far, it's costing us nearly 7 times what they claimed we'd be saving.

 

Nnsense. That's the total forecast deficit not the increase in the forecast since Brexit.

 

And not all of the increase is down to Brexit.

 

And it is a forecast not a fact.

[mullen13]

Edinburgh is probably one of the most interesting places in Britain. Don't think a different demographic would change that much...

[deesidejambo]

Nnsense. That's the total forecast deficit not the increase in the forecast since Brexit.

 

And not all of the increase is down to Brexit.

 

And it is a forecast not a fact.

Don't let the truth get in the way of a badly thought out seethe.

[pcw1874]

Nnsense. That's the total forecast deficit not the increase in the forecast since Brexit.

 

And not all of the increase is down to Brexit.

 

And it is a forecast not a fact.

Correct, it's a forecast, not a fact. However, in the absence of fact, it's the forecast the Government base, and has based for many years, its spending and revenue decisions on, so it's a crucially important forecast.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

It isn't a given, just my opinion.. Having lived in London for over 40 years it always strikes me how (excuse the pretentious word) mono-cultural Edinburgh is.

 

Since I was in the middle of a debate on here about how tolerant Scots are compared to the "racist" English, last time I was up I counted the number of non-white faces I saw in walking from Atholl Crescent to the West End, and from there to Tynecastle. I didn't need more than the fingers of one hand. That would be impossible in any English city and in almost every city in Europe and North America.

I'm not in any way intolerant but I do believe being monocultural isn't a bad thing in any City or Country. You can hardly tell the difference between many of Europe's Capital town centres now.

[Space Mackerel]

It isn't a given, just my opinion.. Having lived in London for over 40 years it always strikes me how (excuse the pretentious word) mono-cultural Edinburgh is.

 

Since I was in the middle of a debate on here about how tolerant Scots are compared to the "racist" English, last time I was up I counted the number of non-white faces I saw in walking from Atholl Crescent to the West End, and from there to Tynecastle. I didn't need more than the fingers of one hand. That would be impossible in any English city and in almost every city in Europe and North America.

I really do like the way the pro Brexit arguments manifest their way through to peoples skin colour over time.

 

 

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[Space Mackerel]

It's startling how different it is up here.

Do you count the number of non white faces you see when you're out and about in Edinburgh? Maybe listen in to conversations and think if they're from Eastern Europe too? They might be Czech, Slovak Hungarian, something like that? Chinese students? Spanish students? What's the tally on them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Francis Albert]

I really do like the way the pro Brexit arguments manifest their way through to peoples skin colour over time.

 

 

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What pro-Brexit argument? When I replied to your question to me about my "take on it", I seem to have mistakenly given

 you credit for being able to read.

[Space Mackerel]

What pro-Brexit argument? When I replied to your question to me about my "take on it", I seem to have mistakenly given

 you credit for being able to read.

Imagine going about your odd visit to Edinburgh counting black people up and down Gorgie Road. Then, relating them to your black people count in London, whichever area you may be in at the time.

 

I saw you're reply Francis, read it, then decided you're have a wee bit racist tendencies. You're a lefty, just got your head on upside down a tad.

[Francis Albert]

Imagine going about your odd visit to Edinburgh counting black people up and down Gorgie Road. Then, relating them to your black people count in London, whichever area you may be in at the time.

 

I saw you're reply Francis, read it, then decided you're have a wee bit racist tendencies. You're a lefty, just got your head on upside down a tad.

I never gave you credit for being able to write. Or think.

[Space Mackerel]

I never gave you credit for being able to write. Or think.

Nice deflection. I'll leave it to the data and spreadsheets you've accumulated on your travels round the English and Scottish capitals.

 

Mod 6 said no personal abuse a wee while ago btw [emoji106]

 

 

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[JamboX2]

It isn't a given, just my opinion.. Having lived in London for over 40 years it always strikes me how (excuse the pretentious word) mono-cultural Edinburgh is.

 

Since I was in the middle of a debate on here about how tolerant Scots are compared to the "racist" English, last time I was up I counted the number of non-white faces I saw in walking from Atholl Crescent to the West End, and from there to Tynecastle. I didn't need more than the fingers of one hand. That would be impossible in any English city and in almost every city in Europe and North America.

Used to have family who lived in London and in and around the Midlands and have relatives of my mums in Merseyside. I agree that it is to some extent striking how much denser the immigration is in England's larger cities to Edinburgh. Even her more "provincial" cities like Derby do.

 

There's a strong but much smaller immigrant community in Edinburgh but I often think that due to immigration being less readily felt in Scotland that that translates into the much more open language from Scottish politicians to an issue their constituents dont see as much.

 

Equally, housing shortages, health service failings, poor economic output (from time to time) and other niggling domestic issues with public services seem to be blamed on Westminster whereas down south it appears "hoards" of immigrants are to blame.

 

Frankly, immigration is great. But i can see why some areas of the UK do view it differently based on the locality. If Scotland wants to be independent with a liberal immigration policy, as we regularly here it would, it should look to Denmark and Sweden and Finland. Three nations traditionally liberal and centre left which have seen the rise in anti-immigrant, populism in the past few years. Such rhetoric can grown anywhere. Here is no different.

[coconut doug]

Used to have family who lived in London and in and around the Midlands and have relatives of my mums in Merseyside. I agree that it is to some extent striking how much denser the immigration is in England's larger cities to Edinburgh. Even her more "provincial" cities like Derby do.

 

There's a strong but much smaller immigrant community in Edinburgh but I often think that due to immigration being less readily felt in Scotland that that translates into the much more open language from Scottish politicians to an issue their constituents dont see as much.

 

Equally, housing shortages, health service failings, poor economic output (from time to time) and other niggling domestic issues with public services seem to be blamed on Westminster whereas down south it appears "hoards" of immigrants are to blame.

 

Frankly, immigration is great. But i can see why some areas of the UK do view it differently based on the locality. If Scotland wants to be independent with a liberal immigration policy, as we regularly here it would, it should look to Denmark and Sweden and Finland. Three nations traditionally liberal and centre left which have seen the rise in anti-immigrant, populism in the past few years. Such rhetoric can grown anywhere. Here is no different.

IMO immigration is not great. It is at best neutral. 

 

   In Scotland we don't blame health service failings on Westminster. Our Health Service is performing better in most areas than England's and is a separate entity. We don't blame niggling domestic issues with public services on Westminster either. It seems we prefer to sort our own problems out in the areas where we have responsibility e.g. forth bridge, trains etc. What would be the point in blaming Westminster when everyone can see that it is not their issue? We have lower unemployment and a growing economy apart from one quarter where the Oil price dropped substantially resulting in a tiny, short lived reduction in output. We do not blame Westminster for the fall in the oil price. We do not blame Westminster either for the housing shortage. This is not as acute as it is in England, one reason for this is that we are building houses. SNP bad though.

 

  Neither do I believe that " down south" immigrants are blamed by as many people as you seem to think. Accusing people who have a genuine concern in the quality of their services as being anti-immigrant is Tory propaganda. It allows the Tories to avoid public investment and provides them with a scapegoat for their low taxation fiscal policy. If you listen to public contributions in most of the news and current affairs programmes they rarely cite immigration as a reason for failing services. Quite the contrary, they often tell us that our NHS and other services could not survive without immigrants. Many low wage earning immigrants prop up our services and the majority of the public know this.

 

Why should we look to Scandinavian countries if what you say of them is true? You characterise them as centre left and liberal yet having anti- immigrant populism. If these countries can't manage immigration then you might reasonably claim that Scotland couldn't either. Perhaps immigration isn't that great after all then especially if a little "rhetoric" can turn centre left societies into anti immigration populists.

 

Maybe it isn't anti - immigrant populism. Maybe immigration isn't as great as you think it is and maybe the people of Sweden, Finland Denmark and England are not as stupid and bigoted as you seem to think they are.

[Nookie Bear]

Do you count the number of non white faces you see when you're out and about in Edinburgh? Maybe listen in to conversations and think if they're from Eastern Europe too? They might be Czech, Slovak Hungarian, something like that? Chinese students? Spanish students? What's the tally on them?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Yeah, all the time obviously.

 

In light of the fact immigration is probably THE discussion point in the UK at the moment, it is natural to observe your own surroundings. Curiosity, nothing more.

 

It's when I start spying on those funny looking foreign people in my street you should start getting worried..."Dear, that Mr Li has a new BMW, do you think he is one of those Triad people?"

[jack D and coke]

IMO immigration is not great. It is at best neutral.

 

In Scotland we don't blame health service failings on Westminster. Our Health Service is performing better in most areas than England's and is a separate entity. We don't blame niggling domestic issues with public services on Westminster either. It seems we prefer to sort our own problems out in the areas where we have responsibility e.g. forth bridge, trains etc. What would be the point in blaming Westminster when everyone can see that it is not their issue? We have lower unemployment and a growing economy apart from one quarter where the Oil price dropped substantially resulting in a tiny, short lived reduction in output. We do not blame Westminster for the fall in the oil price. We do not blame Westminster either for the housing shortage. This is not as acute as it is in England, one reason for this is that we are building houses. SNP bad though.

 

Neither do I believe that " down south" immigrants are blamed by as many people as you seem to think. Accusing people who have a genuine concern in the quality of their services as being anti-immigrant is Tory propaganda. It allows the Tories to avoid public investment and provides them with a scapegoat for their low taxation fiscal policy. If you listen to public contributions in most of the news and current affairs programmes they rarely cite immigration as a reason for failing services. Quite the contrary, they often tell us that our NHS and other services could not survive without immigrants. Many low wage earning immigrants prop up our services and the majority of the public know this.

 

Why should we look to Scandinavian countries if what you say of them is true? You characterise them as centre left and liberal yet having anti- immigrant populism. If these countries can't manage immigration then you might reasonably claim that Scotland couldn't either. Perhaps immigration isn't that great after all then especially if a little "rhetoric" can turn centre left societies into anti immigration populists.

 

Maybe it isn't anti - immigrant populism. Maybe immigration isn't as great as you think it is and maybe the people of Sweden, Finland Denmark and England are not as stupid and bigoted as you seem to think they are.

It's easy to point fingers at "little englanders" or whatever else label the lefty fuds want to pin on people (it's all they've got these days I've noticed, no arguments just labels) when these problems don't affect you in the slightest.

Its been said before Scotland still can't fully handle the white immigration influx of the 1850's onwards from that island that even speaks the same language as us yet we pontificate about others.

The irony once again, generally from the anti English nationalists.

[Francis Albert]

It's easy to point fingers at "little englanders" or whatever else label the lefty fuds want to pin on people (it's all they've got these days I've noticed, no arguments just labels) when these problems don't affect you in the slightest.

Its been said before Scotland still can't fully handle the white immigration influx of the 1850's onwards from that island that even speaks the same language as us yet we pontificate about others.

The irony once again, generally from the anti English nationalists.

Thanks for succinctly restating my point before it re-emerged, through the distorting brain of Mr Mackerel, as somehow "racist".

 

A similar point applies in England  to hand wringing privileged leftish liberal media commentators and remoaner demonstrators who demonise insularity and racism from their mostly white nice middle class areas and who ensure their children go to mainly white, mainly middle class schools. 

[Boris]

Thanks for succinctly restating my point before it re-emerged, through the distorting brain of Mr Mackerel, as somehow "racist".

 

A similar point applies in England  to hand wringing privileged leftish liberal media commentators and remoaner demonstrators who demonise insularism and racism from their mostly white nice middle class areas and who ensure their children go to mainly white, mainly middle class schools. 

 

Source?

[jack D and coke]

Thanks for succinctly restating my point before it re-emerged, through the distorting brain of Mr Mackerel, as somehow "racist".

 

A similar point applies in England to hand wringing privileged leftish liberal media commentators and remoaner demonstrators who demonise insularity and racism from their mostly white nice middle class areas and who ensure their children go to mainly white, mainly middle class schools.

Exactly Francis. What the likes of mackerel and the left don't seem to be grasping is that it's their ludicrous pouncing on anything even remotely mentioning immigrants or even any concerns has actually fuelled the rise of the right again. People are sick fed up being shot down and labelled for asking questions or even like you just making an observation after a discussion.

[coconut doug]

It's easy to point fingers at "little englanders" or whatever else label the lefty fuds want to pin on people (it's all they've got these days I've noticed, no arguments just labels) when these problems don't affect you in the slightest.

Its been said before Scotland still can't fully handle the white immigration influx of the 1850's onwards from that island that even speaks the same language as us yet we pontificate about others.

The irony once again, generally from the anti English nationalists.

I agree, the little Englander thing was and is a real phenomenon as was a similar, though smaller little Britisher view in Scotland. Nevertheless it wasn't the dominant view however much the "lefty fuds" wanted it to be. Simply labelling working class people racist and intolerant was a way by which they avoided the issues and demonstrated their lack of understanding and disengagement with everyday life.

 It is and was a similar thing with the SNP and all the Nazi chat in the media and on here. Hence Brexit and close run indyref. The usual perpetrators taking a leading role DM,DE but the sentiment was in all mainstream media. You are right about Scotland's inability to deal with white immigration from the 19th century but remember we had a bigger proportional influx than rUK. Scotland has improved but ask yourself which group in our society are keenest to hold on to our 17th century British values.

 

  Where I disagree is with your claim that these backward people are anti English nationalists. In my experience they tend to be very stupid, very old and Rangers supporters.