Celtic & Sevco bid to join English league. Again. (merged)

[Watt-Zeefuik]

That's irrelevant. We get the CL and English football now. The OF would just become part of that and non-OF fans would watch them as they do now. They would fill their stadiums as they do now.

 

The point is if we stay in Scotland without the OF we could get 20m + in one year for winning the title and doing a Copenhagen to reach the CL group stages - that would be realistic.

 

If we went to England, the most we could benefit financially would be around 250,000 grand for their share of EPL TV money! Even reaching the Championship would only get us ?2-3m and would take 4 years at least.

 

Imagine 4 years in Scotland winning the title and getting several chances in Europe. People are saying we'd lose money without the OF. I honestly think it would be the opposite. We would sink without trace potentially after going to England.

 

Tranmere Rovers are currently in the Conference - a non league team. They have a capacity of 16,000 or so and they used to be in Division 1 in England. We could as easily end up like them as like a Southampton or Swansea.

 

It would be a massive risk, especially when the alternative is multiple title wins potentially in Scotland and therefor multiple chances to do something in Europe and get at least one massive windfall of 20m or so - which would take years to earn starting at the bottom in England.

 

To be clear, my argument is not, "if the OF go to England we should go too because it would be lots of fun."  My argument is, "if the OF go to England, going and staying are both bad options, because the media will ignore us if we stay and going to England will suck because the English setup is soulless and money-driven."

 

Going would be a risk, certainly, but staying would be a risk too with the risk of ending up like Ireland.  Yes, I think a competent, well-led SPFL could survive the storm and come out strong on the other side, but what are the chances we would end up with five more years of Doncaster because of infighting between the remaining clubs?

[socrates82]

To be clear, my argument is not, "if the OF go to England we should go too because it would be lots of fun."  My argument is, "if the OF go to England, going and staying are both bad options, because the media will ignore us if we stay and going to England will suck because the English setup is soulless and money-driven."

 

Going would be a risk, certainly, but staying would be a risk too with the risk of ending up like Ireland.  Yes, I think a competent, well-led SPFL could survive the storm and come out strong on the other side, but what are the chances we would end up with five more years of Doncaster because of infighting between the remaining clubs?

 

I think you'd find the media would be all over a competitive Premiership as well as covering the OF's "journey" from League 5 to the EPL. It would be the same as now - the OF would mostly dominate.

 

However, there would be a 4 year window minimum while the OF play Morecambe and Southend and co when the remaining teams in Scotland would be offering up much better football - Dundee, Edinburgh, Highland derbies etc - and playing in Europe. The idea that our media would ignore Hearts vs Liverpool in the CL or a Premiership race between Aberdeen, us and St Johnstone to focus on Celtic vs Portsmouth in Division 4 is nonsense. They would cover both, as now. 

 

I don't rate our media but they wouldn't be that obvious. Most of our media will be online and on demand soon anyhow. Have you seen the latest readership figures for our domestic papers?

[socrates82]

A better question to ask - who would stop attending HMFC games if they left?

 

I don't see how any Hearts fans would stop going to games if there was no OF in the league. Crowds have been great in a league with just one of the uglies. In a league we can win they'd be higher.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I don't see how any Hearts fans would stop going to games if there was no OF in the league. Crowds have been great in a league with just one of the uglies. In a league we can win they'd be higher.

That's my thinking too.

[Stanley_]

We can't be compared with Wales though as none of their remain gin teams (I think) get anywhere near Scottish top league attendances. And also haven't Swansea and Cardiff played win England basically for ever? Or decades at least. Not really a good comparison.

 

In reality, ourselves Hibs and Aberdeen could step up to become the new "OF". The gap between us and the rest just wouldn't be as big - so quite like other leagues in countries our size.

 

Folk on here are sounding like OF fans or Neil Doncaster with this chat.

 

In fact, they struggle to even compete with the Third Division here (or league two as it's now called).  Seven of the Scottish League Two teams got a higher average attendance than the highest average from any Welsh Premier team.  Even East Stirling, with the lowest average of just 320 had a higher average than half of the Welsh Premier teams.  Highest Welsh average is just 494.

 

The Welsh League is, in no way, comparable to the Scottish Leagues without the Old Firm.

 

If the Scottish lower leagues can manage higher attendances than the top Welsh teams without ever playing the Old Firm in the league then it's safe to say that the Scottish Premier will have many thousands more fans with or without the Old Firm.

[Hendricks]

You're not listening. Copenhagen are nowhere near the size of Rangers or Celtic. They are our size. We would be the equivalent of Copenhagen. Copenhagen are already playing in a  league without two teams the size of the OF and doing well - that's the point. As for the rest of the Danish league, our league has better and bigger teams and bigger attendances across the board (even without the OF).

 

And why can't we get into the CL if Copenhagen can? Makes no sense. Our crowds are the same. We play in a better league. Why can't you see that ourselves and Aberdeen and/or Hibs would become the OF. We are bigger than the other teams and could dominate. It's just the gap would be smaller between us and the rest than the gap between the OF and us currently. That would make for a more exciting league.

 

No, you are the one who is not listening. Nowhere have I said that Copenhagen are the size of either Celtic or Rangers. Equally you are the one comparing what Copenhagen do with what you think we can do. I am telling you that you are talking nonsense as Copenhagen are in a league and are a club that is getting considerably more revenue than us NOW never mind if Rantic were to leave. Them leaving will see revenue into Scottish football and clubs like Hearts nosedive. That is a reality and one you are not grasping because you think Hearts will replicate what the likes of Copenhagen are doing despite their league not having the issues we will be faced with and having secured revenue.

 

NB. It has nothing to do with thinking that Rantic bring "positives" to the game, they bring little that resemble positives however the income stream that clubs heavily rely on from TV and sponsorship will take a further massive hit as regardless of whether we like it or not (we don't) others believe that Scottish football revolves around them! That is not going to suddenly change if they leave, all interest out with local will be on their 'journey' through the English leagues. Scottish football will be a bigger after thought than it even is now and I personally doubt that there will be the finance and overall interest for us to have a full time SPL within a fairly short period of time. Hearts of course will be amongst those who could survive but what structure and league will we be left to play in. Its all ifs buts and maybes but any opportunity to grow an ambitious club in a wealthy Capital City like Edinburgh is one I think we would be seriously naive to turn down without looking very seriously at it.

[Hendricks]

A better question to ask - who would stop attending HMFC games if they left?

 

Its an interesting question and very difficult to answer without looking at it from the perspective of short, medium and long term. Personally I think their might even be an initial spike in our crowds as one of the few clubs who could realistically end a long wait for a title (regardless of how one views winning the title in this manner). Other clubs would undoubtably suffer from losing their Rantic fixtures though its possible with much less football on TV there would be more Saturday 3pm games which may help. However more medium to long term its my strong opinion that in the same way our crowds dropped after we won the Holy Grail in 1998 (we couldn't even sell out the home fixture with Rangers immediately after it) any 'title win' in these circumstances would see fans of a certain age drift away given the likely further drop in standard of the league. Long term I just can't see a league with the teams we are talking about holding a whole lot of interest. People are talking about season tickets being cheaper which they inevitably would be given 4 less Category A matches, a further big hit to our revenue. 

[Rudy T]

No, you are the one who is not listening. Nowhere have I said that Copenhagen are the size of either Celtic or Rangers. Equally you are the one comparing what Copenhagen do with what you think we can do. I am telling you that you are talking nonsense as Copenhagen are in a league and are a club that is getting considerably more revenue than us NOW never mind if Rantic were to leave. Them leaving will see revenue into Scottish football and clubs like Hearts nosedive. That is a reality and one you are not grasping because you think Hearts will replicate what the likes of Copenhagen are doing despite their league not having the issues we will be faced with and having secured revenue.

 

NB. It has nothing to do with thinking that Rantic bring "positives" to the game, they bring little that resemble positives however the income stream that clubs heavily rely on from TV and sponsorship will take a further massive hit as regardless of whether we like it or not (we don't) others believe that Scottish football revolves around them! That is not going to suddenly change if they leave, all interest out with local will be on their 'journey' through the English leagues. Scottish football will be a bigger after thought than it even is now and I personally doubt that there will be the finance and overall interest for us to have a full time SPL within a fairly short period of time. Hearts of course will be amongst those who could survive but what structure and league will we be left to play in. Its all ifs buts and maybes but any opportunity to grow an ambitious club in a wealthy Capital City like Edinburgh is one I think we would be seriously naive to turn down without looking very seriously at it.

I'm not sure why you think a revamped Scottish league set up with 5 or 6 competitive teams all with good academies, the prospect of trophies and Europe would not attract money into the game.

 

Have you stopped to think how detrimental the old firm are to the the progression of our game and ultimately the revenue the game receives.

 

With the right people in charge and a competitive set up the game would thrive without those two suckling the lifeblood out of our game. They are too big and too powerful for our country it's unhealthy and they are to blame for all that's wrong in our game after 30 years of slowly killing it.

[Nookie Bear]

I'm not sure why you think a revamped Scottish league set up with 5 or 6 competitive teams all with good academies, the prospect of trophies and Europe would not attract money into the game.

 

Have you stopped to think how detrimental the old firm are to the the progression of our game and ultimately the revenue the game receives.

 

With the right people in charge and a competitive set up the game would thrive without those two suckling the lifeblood out of our game. They are too big and too powerful for our country it's unhealthy and they are to blame for all that's wrong in our game after 30 years of slowly killing it.

 

But if they moved to the English league the old firm would still be based in Scotland, hoovering up supporters based on geography and religion and dominating the media.

 

Every game they played would be live on tv up here - would Sky or BT Sport want to show Hearts v Aberdeen? Maybe, but I doubt they would pay that much for it. We would end up on BBC Alba.

[Rudy T]

But if they moved to the English league the old firm would still be based in Scotland, hoovering up supporters based on geography and religion and dominating the media.

 

Every game they played would be live on tv up here - would Sky or BT Sport want to show Hearts v Aberdeen? Maybe, but I doubt they would pay that much for it. We would end up on BBC Alba.

Which is exactly what they do now. The big difference would be they could no longer run our game. We would be in control fair voting rights a fair slit of money and a chance to invest in the game overall with out them having any say what so ever.

 

With them both back in the top league we are likely to enter another long period of those two doing what they like to the detriment of all other clubs. Celtic are light years ahead of the rest of us and rangers will somehow catch up and we'll be back to those two fighting for every trophy that scenario is more likely to kill the game than them taking a hike to England's 5th tier. If they were going in at EPL level I'd likely think differently but them joining some lowly league with no prospect of hoovering up champs league money or playing anyone of note is a different scenario and would give us 5 years to get a new brand established and well funded.

[Rudy T]

Double post

[luckydug]

I can't see clubs being allowed to switch to other Nations leagues being sanctioned by UEFA anyway. Once this is allowed teams from all over would be leaving to join more powerful leagues. It would be chaos and would be the beginning of the end for International football.

I believe the reason Cardiff and Swansea

are allowed to play in the English league is because there was no recognized Welsh league at the time of them joining the Football League. That is a different scenario to the position of Scottish clubs today. I know of no other precedent although someone else may know.

[Nookie Bear]

I can't see clubs being allowed to switch to other Nations leagues being sanctioned by UEFA anyway. Once this is allowed teams from all over would be leaving to join more powerful leagues. It would be chaos and would be the beginning of the end for International football.

I believe the reason Cardiff and Swansea

are allowed to play in the English league is because there was no recognized Welsh league at the time of them joining the Football League. That is a different scenario to the position of Scottish clubs today. I know of no other precedent although someone else may know.

 

If the old firm left we could just disband the league...

 

If there was a move for a British League then we need fairness. We have a lot more risk involved in moving than any 5th tier English club would have in being put in a division with us. For a start, us, Aberdeen, Rangers, Celtic and even Motherwell, Hibs and St J have a European ranking to protect plus many clubs up here have invested money into very good facilities including all seater stadia and training facilities (do Dover Athletic have access to anything like Riccarton or even the hibs cowshed??)

 

So, imo, if we were forced into a British League then it has to be realigned from scratch and I think the Championship is the right place for us, hibs and aberdeen. Celtic in the EPL and rangers probably in the championship (?)

 

But I think this is a nice internet discussion and the reality over the next 20 years will be nothing like that.

[Hagar the Horrible]

You can only beat who is in front of you.

 

I enjoyed playing Alloa and Dumbarton etc in the Championship, but regardless if we play Motherwell or Yeovil I am there to see the Hearts, The only games I dont enjoy is the OF games.

 

So if we play in the UK or play in Scotlandshire I dont care, in both cases we would survive and flourish.  In England we would rise to the Championship, but beyond that would require a massive effort..  If the OF left then with 4 or 5 clubs all capable of winning the league, it would flourish, we would flourish and there is the possibility of an Inverness or Motherwell winning the league perhaps once a decade. 

 

What the OF and the MSM dont get is when our game finishes the first thing for me is how do the teams around us in the league is getting on, and also how Hibs got on, they all think we listen attentively to the radios listening to the OF games,  The Old Firm are not box office anymore.

 

I would be happy either way for us to go/stay?  stay we get the chance to qualify of CL football, go we get a better TV deal, might need a bigger boat.  but it is all relative if Walker is a ?2k a week player we would be paying him ?20k just for the same standard of player.

 

But as for life without the OF, there was only one club affected by their absence in the top flight and that was Celtic, everybody else cut their cloth.  If Rangers failed to have life after post liquidation, then what would be different?  Rangers did come back and the lower leagues had more attention than normal and most clubs benefited from it, but nobody apart from Celtic lost out.

[John Findlay]

Thanks for your oh so insightful input. What a tool.

I'm a spade. What tool are you?

[luckydug]

Celtic would be able to sit out 5 years or so in England until they got to the promised land. They have a healthy balance sheet.

What about Rangers though ? They are still operating on a much reduced budget at the moment. A few years diddling about in lower leagues with no prospect of big European nights is a big gamble for them.

People talk about the Old Firm as if they are on a level financial footing. They are not at the moment anyway. Celtic could buy

and sell The Rangers.

[henry]

If the OF were to join the English league then I'd hope Hearts go as well

[Mysterion]

At what point does Dave King realise that any move to England would see him reassessed and declared "unfit" to be a club chairman ?

[N Lincs Jambo]

You can only beat who is in front of you.

 

I enjoyed playing Alloa and Dumbarton etc in the Championship, but regardless if we play Motherwell or Yeovil I am there to see the Hearts, The only games I dont enjoy is the OF games.

 

So if we play in the UK or play in Scotlandshire I dont care, in both cases we would survive and flourish.  In England we would rise to the Championship, but beyond that would require a massive effort..  If the OF left then with 4 or 5 clubs all capable of winning the league, it would flourish, we would flourish and there is the possibility of an Inverness or Motherwell winning the league perhaps once a decade. 

 

What the OF and the MSM dont get is when our game finishes the first thing for me is how do the teams around us in the league is getting on, and also how Hibs got on, they all think we listen attentively to the radios listening to the OF games,  The Old Firm are not box office anymore.

 

I would be happy either way for us to go/stay?  stay we get the chance to qualify of CL football, go we get a better TV deal, might need a bigger boat.  but it is all relative if Walker is a ?2k a week player we would be paying him ?20k just for the same standard of player.

 

But as for life without the OF, there was only one club affected by their absence in the top flight and that was Celtic, everybody else cut their cloth.  If Rangers failed to have life after post liquidation, then what would be different?  Rangers did come back and the lower leagues had more attention than normal and most clubs benefited from it, but nobody apart from Celtic lost out.

 

I like the idea of us competing in a British league but can't see it happening. If it were to happen though and a new British league set-up was brought in with sides being re-aligned I think we would start in the Championship with Celtic and probably Newco in the Top league. I would hope though that we would show some real ambition to reach the top division and challenge. If we could get there, we would be able to access some serious TV money and the new Tynecastle would be nowhere near big enough at 21K. I know it will not be popular but in that scenario we would have to reconsider Murrayfield... Tin hat firmly in place but as I said earlier, it's all a pipe dream as much for us as for the arse cheeks.

[andy65]

Nah I'd rather they went. Completely. Free Scottish football from their bias and control. Yes we (Scottish football) will fall but find our level, no TV but a competent and competitive league, Sat football , teams like us, Aberdeen , both Dundee sides, Thistle, Dunfermline, Raith, Ayr , Killie, Motherwell, Falkirk even the Hobo's have reasonable fan bases that could grow in such an environment . Add to that St J , Inverness , County, Morton, St Mirren, QoS, some clubs would likely not survive though and prob end up with a top league of 18 and maybe a 16 div 2.

[The Treasurer]

Like the vast majority, I wish they'd both just feck, never to return.

But the truth is that even if they joined the English league or any other league, they'd still be playing in Scotland and get 99.9% of the media coverage.

Do people really think that Sky or BT (or even STV) would want to show Dundee v Aberdeen when they could be showing sellik v Bristol Rovers ?

 

It would make for a more exciting, competitive league in Scotland which could be capable of attracting decent sponsorship and tv coverage, but the likes dungcatcher and reagan would be too busy mourning the loss of their "stars" to bother trying to sell our product to the media/sponsors

[henry]

Like the vast majority, I wish they'd both just feck, never to return.

But the truth is that even if they joined the English league or any other league, they'd still be playing in Scotland and get 99.9% of the media coverage.

Do people really think that Sky or BT (or even STV) would want to show Dundee v Aberdeen when they could be showing sellik v Bristol Rovers ?

 

It would make for a more exciting, competitive league in Scotland which could be capable of attracting decent sponsorship and tv coverage, but the likes dungcatcher and reagan would be too busy mourning the loss of their "stars" to bother trying to sell our product to the media/sponsors

There would be virtually no tv money if the OF left. Hearts would be best to attempt to go as well. If Budge isn't already looking into leaving along with them I'd be disappointed.

[The Treasurer]

There would be virtually no tv money if the OF left. Hearts would be best to attempt to go as well. If Budge isn't already looking into leaving along with them I'd be disappointed.

A midweek trip to Kilmarnock is bad enough, I don't think a Wednesday night trip to Crewe would be any more appealing 

[We_are_the_Hearts]

A midweek trip to Kilmarnock is bad enough, I don't think a Wednesday night trip to Crewe would be any more appealing 

The majority of opinions on here are from fans that don't go to many away games though. That's the problem, the money makers know that the money is made from "armchair" fans.

[trotter]

There would be virtually no tv money if the OF left. Hearts would be best to attempt to go as well. If Budge isn't already looking into leaving along with them I'd be disappointed.

 

But there is virtually no TV money anyway? Where is this idea that the paltry amounts we receive has any tangible benefit to clubs outwith Rangers/Celtic coming from? 

 

Going from here (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfl-strike-new-tv-deal-6419830) it looks like the deal is worth < 20M/yr. Even assuming that it is divided equally that is less than 1.7M per team/per year. We earn roughly 6x that from gate receipts alone. 

 

*some assumptions made, but my overall point stands

[luckydug]

There would be virtually no tv money if the OF left. Hearts would be best to attempt to go as well. If Budge isn't already looking into leaving along with them I'd be disappointed.

 

I am the very opposite. I would be disappointedl if she was. She has just been elected to the board of the SPFL what kind of message would she be giving out by selling Scottish football down the river.

In any case by the time this plan came to fruition Hearts will be fan owned.

We are a SCOTTISH team we play in Scotland. We should concentrate on making the Scottish game stronger not weaker.

I would not be prepared to follow an English League team.

[socrates82]

No, you are the one who is not listening. Nowhere have I said that Copenhagen are the size of either Celtic or Rangers. Equally you are the one comparing what Copenhagen do with what you think we can do. I am telling you that you are talking nonsense as Copenhagen are in a league and are a club that is getting considerably more revenue than us NOW never mind if Rantic were to leave. Them leaving will see revenue into Scottish football and clubs like Hearts nosedive. That is a reality and one you are not grasping because you think Hearts will replicate what the likes of Copenhagen are doing despite their league not having the issues we will be faced with and having secured revenue.

 

NB. It has nothing to do with thinking that Rantic bring "positives" to the game, they bring little that resemble positives however the income stream that clubs heavily rely on from TV and sponsorship will take a further massive hit as regardless of whether we like it or not (we don't) others believe that Scottish football revolves around them! That is not going to suddenly change if they leave, all interest out with local will be on their 'journey' through the English leagues. Scottish football will be a bigger after thought than it even is now and I personally doubt that there will be the finance and overall interest for us to have a full time SPL within a fairly short period of time. Hearts of course will be amongst those who could survive but what structure and league will we be left to play in. Its all ifs buts and maybes but any opportunity to grow an ambitious club in a wealthy Capital City like Edinburgh is one I think we would be seriously naive to turn down without looking very seriously at it.

 

But we're not talking about revenue NOW. Copenhagen has more money than us NOW because they're playing in the CL NOW because they won their domestic title because there aren't two enormous, well-funded teams dominating their league preventing them from doing that.

 

We're talking about a hypothetical future situation where Hearts are winning an OF-free league regularly that allows entry into the CL - just like Copenhagen. 

 

That offers a route to more revenue that is much faster and more fun than entering the English 5th Division and hoping we can progress to the EPL in all of ours' lifetimes.

 

I would rather compete with 3 or 4 teams in Scotland to get into the CL qualifiers every year than compete with about 40 or 50 similar sized clubs in England to get into the EPL over a number of years and then compete with 19 very well resourced teams in the EPL to get into the CL.

[socrates82]

But there is virtually no TV money anyway? Where is this idea that the paltry amounts we receive has any tangible benefit to clubs outwith Rangers/Celtic coming from? 

 

Going from here (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfl-strike-new-tv-deal-6419830) it looks like the deal is worth < 20M/yr. Even assuming that it is divided equally that is less than 1.7M per team/per year. We earn roughly 6x that from gate receipts alone. 

 

*some assumptions made, but my overall point stands

 

And League Two and One teams in England, leagues we could easily get stuck in in a new 5 league English set-up, get just 250,000 and 350,000 or so each from TV. Is that really worth moving for? Mental thought processes going on here.

[rab obanheartsno1]

Hopefully when they go ( in my dreams ) they take that puppet Doncaster with them and lock him up in the first motorway service toilet ****ing waste off space

[Hendricks]

But we're not talking about revenue NOW. Copenhagen has more money than us NOW because they're playing in the CL NOW because they won their domestic title because there aren't two enormous, well-funded teams dominating their league preventing them from doing that.

 

We're talking about a hypothetical future situation where Hearts are winning an OF-free league regularly that allows entry into the CL - just like Copenhagen. 

 

That offers a route to more revenue that is much faster and more fun than entering the English 5th Division and hoping we can progress to the EPL in all of ours' lifetimes.

 

I would rather compete with 3 or 4 teams in Scotland to get into the CL qualifiers every year than compete with about 40 or 50 similar sized clubs in England to get into the EPL over a number of years and then compete with 19 very well resourced teams in the EPL to get into the CL.

 

 

We won;t have the funds like Copenhagen do in a Scottish league setup without Rantic. Regardless of how attractive and competitive you (or I) or anyone else thinks it is without them around. It simply won;t happen. The media, TV , sponsorship will follow then despite the fact they aren't playing in the Scottish league. There will be no Scottish league teams playing Champions League football so that is completely pie in the sky. Copenhagen have the secured revenues in a league not losing its biggest 2 sides. We would have hugely diminished revenue streams through no fault of our own if they should leave. A poster above suggests that with the correct people in charge the Scopttish league will bring in new and increased income but I'm afraid whilst this would be awesome to believe its simply never going to happen. Sponsors and companies put money in for exposure, they want to be seen (and in some cases heard), the huge drop off in people watching Scottish football would make it even less attractive. Thats the reality.

 

Anyway as I said previously we will never agree but cheers for the interesting debate!  We will see what happens but in conclusion I would want Hearts to be involved in any discussions IF there was a situation that meant any of this was likely to happen. To not be would be downright negligent.

[TNCASTLE]

Celtic are virtually guaranteed Champs League every year. Would they give that up for 5 years?

 

Well Real Madrid received over ?80M for winning ECL which Celtic would never do, and last placed EPL teams receives over ?90M which is something they could " win" ?!

I think if they were offered entry in any form they would jump at it.

So would we obviously.

[socrates82]

We won;t have the funds like Copenhagen do in a Scottish league setup without Rantic. Regardless of how attractive and competitive you (or I) or anyone else thinks it is without them around. It simply won;t happen. The media, TV , sponsorship will follow then despite the fact they aren't playing in the Scottish league. There will be no Scottish league teams playing Champions League football so that is completely pie in the sky. Copenhagen have the secured revenues in a league not losing its biggest 2 sides. We would have hugely diminished revenue streams through no fault of our own if they should leave. A poster above suggests that with the correct people in charge the Scopttish league will bring in new and increased income but I'm afraid whilst this would be awesome to believe its simply never going to happen. Sponsors and companies put money in for exposure, they want to be seen (and in some cases heard), the huge drop off in people watching Scottish football would make it even less attractive. Thats the reality.

 

Anyway as I said previously we will never agree but cheers for the interesting debate!  We will see what happens but in conclusion I would want Hearts to be involved in any discussions IF there was a situation that meant any of this was likely to happen. To not be would be downright negligent.

 

A future non-OF league based on real life scenarios. Check out the numbers in bold. Look at how similar some are and how different one in particular is.

 

Don't you think the reason Copenhagen has this revenue from the CL  is that they play in a league they regularly win - which would be the situation Hearts would be in. And the Scottish league even without the OF has more bigger teams than the Danish team does. The Danish league also faces TV competition from the EPL and other leagues which have huge followings in Denmark.

We would become the Copenhagen of the Scottish league potentially instead of being the Preston NE of the English league. What don't you get about that?

 

Population of Scotland: 5.3m

Highest average home attendance (current): 15,000 (Hearts)

2nd highest: 13,000 (Aberdeen)

3rd highest: 10,000 (Hibs)

European places: 3

No. of times Hearts have played games in the CL (current): 4

 

Population of Denmark: 5.6m

Highest average attendance (current): 16,000 (Copenhagen)

2nd highest: 12,000 (Bronby)

Denmark has no other teams above 10,000

European places: 3

No. of times Copenhagen have played games in the CL (current): 74

 

?See that 74 number - that's potential. Much greater potential than picking up 200 grand or so TV money in England every year if we're lucky, and never playing in Europe ever again.

[socrates82]

Well Real Madrid received over ?80M for winning ECL which Celtic would never do, and last placed EPL teams receives over ?90M which is something they could " win" ?!

I think if they were offered entry in any form they would jump at it.

So would we obviously.

 

Under Romanov maybe. As a fan owned club, no way would we vote to leave Scottish football with the OF. I don't believe Aberdeen or Hibs would want to either.

[Hendricks]

A future non-OF league based on real life scenarios. Check out the numbers in bold. Look at how similar some are and how different one in particular is.

 

Don't you think the reason Copenhagen has this revenue from the CL is that they play in a league they regularly win - which would be the situation Hearts would be in. And the Scottish league even without the OF has more bigger teams than the Danish team does. The Danish league also faces TV competition from the EPL and other leagues which have huge followings in Denmark.

We would become the Copenhagen of the Scottish league potentially instead of being the Preston NE of the English league. What don't you get about that?

 

Population of Scotland: 5.3m

Highest average home attendance (current): 15,000 (Hearts)

2nd highest: 13,000 (Aberdeen)

3rd highest: 10,000 (Hibs)

European places: 3

No. of times Hearts have played games in the CL (current): 4

 

Population of Denmark: 5.6m

Highest average attendance (current): 16,000 (Copenhagen)

2nd highest: 12,000 (Bronby)

Denmark has no other teams above 10,000

European places: 3

No. of times Copenhagen have played games in the CL (current): 74

 

?See that 74 number - that's potential. Much greater potential than picking up 200 grand or so TV money in England every year if we're lucky, and never playing in Europe ever again.

Complete delusion.

 

The Danish clubs (as you can see from this excellent article) share vastly superior sums from TV than we do and that is when we have Rantic's involvement. With Rangers out of the SPL the TV revenue was absolutely hammered and we are talking hypothetically of BOTH then and Celtic being gone!!!!!

 

As this article shows the TV deal was slashed hugely without Rangers in the top flight to a figure equating to $3 million euros. The Danish deal was for $45 million euros, yes FORTY FIVE!!! That has nothing to do with Champions league revenue, that is their domestic TV deal. We are talking about taking out the only 2 clubs that the big TV companies care about and you dont think that's going to effect Scottish football's revenue streams. Laughable. Completely delusional. You are then talking about us replicating Copenhagen whose revenue is many times ours and who play in a league which has a working structure and guaranteed revenue and a club in a position to continue to play in the group stages of European competition.

 

Hearts will not be playing in the Champions league group stages and along with the rest, as proven recently will struggle to get through many qualifying rounds at all. This especially the case given we won't even have the budget we do now (neither will the other teams!) given the certain drop in revenue. It's actually pretty depressing the way this will pan out should we be left to fight over the crumbs.

 

https://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/the-sfaspl-tv-myth-how-we-compare-to-europe/

[socrates82]

Complete delusion.

 

The Danish clubs (as you can see from this excellent article) share vastly superior sums from TV than we do and that is when we have Rantic's involvement. With Rangers out of the SPL the TV revenue was absolutely hammered and we are talking hypothetically of BOTH then and Celtic being gone!!!!!

 

As this article shows the TV deal was slashed hugely without Rangers in the top flight to a figure equating to $3 million euros. The Danish deal was for $45 million euros, yes FORTY FIVE!!! That has nothing to do with Champions league revenue, that is their domestic TV deal. We are talking about taking out the only 2 clubs that the big TV companies care about and you do t think that's going to effect Scottish football's revenue streams. Laughable. You are then talking about us replicating Copenhagen whose revenue is many times ours and who play in a league which has a working structure and guaranteed revenue and a club in a position to continue to play in the group stages of European competition.

 

Hearts will not be playing in the Champions league group stages and along with the rest, as proven recently will struggle to get through many qualifying rounds at all. This especially the case given we won't even have the budget we do now (neither will the other teams!) given the certain drop in revenue. It's actually pretty depressing the way this will pan out should we be left to fight over the crumbs.

 

https://saintinasia.wordpress.com/2012/07/06/the-sfaspl-tv-myth-how-we-compare-to-europe/

 

Ok, you don't like the Danish example, despite its very obvious similarities (they have no teams as far ahead of the others finance wise as we do with the OF by the way).

 

How about Hibs? They are playing in a crap league full of PT teams without Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen or Hearts. And they are getting an average of 16,000 to games so far.

 

Amazing what the chance of a league title does for a fan base. The definition of delusion is not accepting what everyone can see is the reality - and that is that football fans in Scotland WILL support their team in larger numbers when there is a chance of winning something. TV money in Scotland is inconsequential. We could lose it all tomorrow and not miss a beat. The fact (as illustrated by Hibs right now and ourselves over the last couple of years in a  league with just one of the uglies) is a competitive league would be more attractive than the current league - to fans, broadcasters, journalists, sponsors...

 

TV money might and probably would reduce - to the levels of a Danish league contract - but general income would rise from increased home gates for a club like ours and more frequent European football.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I can't see clubs being allowed to switch to other Nations leagues being sanctioned by UEFA anyway. Once this is allowed teams from all over would be leaving to join more powerful leagues. It would be chaos and would be the beginning of the end for International football.

I believe the reason Cardiff and Swansea

are allowed to play in the English league is because there was no recognized Welsh league at the time of them joining the Football League. That is a different scenario to the position of Scottish clubs today. I know of no other precedent although someone else may know.

 

There are many situations like Berwick Rangers around the UK.  New Saints just won the Welsh league and they're across the border in England.  Full list here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_clubs_playing_in_the_league_of_another_country#Association_football

 

The entire UK setup of separate national leagues is an anachronism as far as UEFA is concerned.  At some point, barring indyref2 or similar, I have to imagine that they're going to start applying pressure to do some kind of unified top tier with promotion from national leagues.  If the Twin Cheeks got into England and made it to the EPL, at some point that would start to look inevitable.

[Hendricks]

Ok, you don't like the Danish example, despite its very obvious similarities (they have no teams as far ahead of the others finance wise as we do with the OF by the way).

 

How about Hibs? They are playing in a crap league full of PT teams without Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen or Hearts. And they are getting an average of 16,000 to games so far.

 

Amazing what the chance of a league title does for a fan base. The definition of delusion is not accepting what everyone can see is the reality - and that is that football fans in Scotland WILL support their team in larger numbers when there is a chance of winning something. TV money in Scotland is inconsequential. We could lose it all tomorrow and not miss a beat. The fact (as illustrated by Hibs right now and ourselves over the last couple of years in a  league with just one of the uglies) is a competitive league would be more attractive than the current league - to fans, broadcasters, journalists, sponsors...

 

TV money might and probably would reduce - to the levels of a Danish league contract - but general income would rise from increased home gates for a club like ours and more frequent European football.

 

I give up. Completely delusional.

 

I've just shown you the revenues and as recently as Rangers being in the lower leagues the top clubs in Denmark had a domestic football contract for TV revenue of 14-15 times ours!!!  We are talking about a hypothetical situation where BOTH Rangers and Celtic left. It's there in black and white what the TV companies think of an SPL without Rangers, God alone knows what crumbs we may be talking without Celtic too. I honestly believe we will be dropped entirely by Sky and BT and would be looking at a BBC Scotland contract which will be a pittance. 

[socrates82]

I give up. Completely delusional.

 

Yes, it's crazy that I can look at what's actually happening right now in Scotland (Hibs, no OF, bigger crowds or us, only one if the OF and bigger crowds... ) and in the very similar country of Denmark (Copenhagen, tiny crap league, crowds of 15,000, playing regular Euro football) and base my arguments on that instead of just making things up!

 

This has been like discussing independence with people who refuse to believe a country Scotland's size can succeed on its own, despite all the evidence to the contrary around them in the world every day.

[Bowmans_Boot]

Yes, it's crazy that I can look at what's actually happening right now in Scotland (Hibs, no OF, bigger crowds or us, only one if the OF and bigger crowds... ) and in the very similar country of Denmark (Copenhagen, tiny crap league, crowds of 15,000, playing regular Euro football) and base my arguments on that instead of just making things up!

 

This has been like discussing independence with people who refuse to believe a country Scotland's size can succeed on its own, despite all the evidence to the contrary around them in the world every day.

 

Do you think the television deal we would attract would be better or worse than it is now if Rangers and Celtic left?

 

Do you think our income would increase or decrease?

 

Do you seriously think we would be involved in the CL group stages? Northern Ireland's champions have the opportunity to make it there, as well, but amazingly never do. 

[Hendricks]

Yes, it's crazy that I can look at what's actually happening right now in Scotland (Hibs, no OF, bigger crowds or us, only one if the OF and bigger crowds... ) and in the very similar country of Denmark (Copenhagen, tiny crap league, crowds of 15,000, playing regular Euro football) and base my arguments on that instead of just making things up!

 

This has been like discussing independence with people who refuse to believe a country Scotland's size can succeed on its own, despite all the evidence to the contrary around them in the world every day.

 

I've given you stats and facts and actual figures for TV revenue differences between us and Denmark (a comparison you brought up!). Even with Rantic they are miles ahead of us and our TV and sponsorship revenue will be decimated should they depart. Yet you continue to bang on about how Hibs have had 2 or 3 big crowds on the back of winning their first Scottish Cup in over 100 years!  Aye, thats a sure fire guarantee that will continue given last season they had some crowds in the 6-7k mark! 

 

As I say I give up but bash on!

[socrates82]

I've given you stats and facts and actual figures for TV revenue differences between us and Denmark (a comparison you brought up!). Even with Rantic they are miles ahead of us and our TV and sponsorship revenue will be decimated should they depart. Yet you continue to bang on about how Hibs have had 2 or 3 big crowds on the back of winning their first Scottish Cup in over 100 years!  Aye, thats a sure fire guarantee that will continue given last season they had some crowds in the 6-7k mark! 

 

As I say I give up but bash on!

 

OK

 

Yes and where were they in the league last year? Hibs will average 14,000 this season minimum. They would do that in an OF-free Premiership too, as would us and Aberdeen - or even higher attendances. Three teams at least challenging for the league with crowds above 15,000. Every other team also starting the season with a realistic objective of Europe or even putting together a challenge. That's better than the Danish league.

 

I can't wait, but don't think England wants the OF unfortunately, and they definitely won't want us and Hibs - why would they when you keep saying how bad we are without the OF to prop us up?

 

As for Europe, all league champions at least get into the qualifying stages. UEFA isn't going to take away a CL place just because the OF leave for goodness sake! Copenhagen got an easy draw and made it through three ties to get to the group stages. That could easily be us.

[Hendricks]

OK

 

Yes and where were they in the league last year? Hibs will average 14,000 this season minimum. They would do that in an OF-free Premiership too, as would us and Aberdeen - or even higher attendances. Three teams at least challenging for the league with crowds above 15,000. Every other team also starting the season with a realistic objective of Europe or even putting together a challenge. That's better than the Danish league.

 

I can't wait, but don't think England wants the OF unfortunately, and they definitely won't want us and Hibs - why would they when you keep saying how bad we are without the OF to prop us up?

 

As for Europe, all league champions at least get into the qualifying stages. UEFA isn't going to take away a CL place just because the OF leave for goodness sake! Copenhagen got an easy draw and made it through three ties to get to the group stages. That could easily be us.

 

 

 

This has never felt so appropriate....

 

[Getintaethem]

In my opinion the EPL is less than a decade from completely imploding. The big money won't last and a lot of clubs will end up in trouble. It's enjoying it's years in the sunshine just now but is overinflated and the bubble is sure to burst sometime. Remember when Italian football was all the rage?

 

The emergence of strong leagues in North America and Asia will effect the global appeal. Modern technology will mean less revenue for the TV companies. Fashion will move on. Eventually the house of cards will come crashing down. History tells us that the whole thing is unsustainable. We may be better off staying well enough away.

[trotter]

I've given you stats and facts and actual figures for TV revenue differences between us and Denmark (a comparison you brought up!). Even with Rantic they are miles ahead of us and our TV and sponsorship revenue will be decimated should they depart. Yet you continue to bang on about how Hibs have had 2 or 3 big crowds on the back of winning their first Scottish Cup in over 100 years!  Aye, thats a sure fire guarantee that will continue given last season they had some crowds in the 6-7k mark! 

 

As I say I give up but bash on!

 

You are repeatedly bashing this TV money argument, but you've yet to answer my original question. The current TV deal is worth around 1.5M per year per team (assuming it's divided equally which it isn't). Please explain to me in simple terms why a reduction in (or loss of) this relatively small amount will have this catastrophic effect on Scottish football that you are sure will happen? The TV and media rarely gives us much notice outside Scotland anyway. I would presume that the loss of the minuscule TV revenue we currently have will in the short term be compensated by increased crowds as fans return to games that they could conceivably win. 

[socrates82]

In my opinion the EPL is less than a decade from completely imploding. The big money won't last and a lot of clubs will end up in trouble. It's enjoying it's years in the sunshine just now but is overinflated and the bubble is sure to burst sometime. Remember when Italian football was all the rage?

 

The emergence of strong leagues in North America and Asia will effect the global appeal. Modern technology will mean less revenue for the TV companies. Fashion will move on. Eventually the house of cards will come crashing down. History tells us that the whole thing is unsustainable. We may be better off staying well enough away.

 

Yep - the EPL and the housing market. Two bubbles that will pop eventually.

[MacDonald Jardine]

You are repeatedly bashing this TV money argument, but you've yet to answer my original question. The current TV deal is worth around 1.5M per year per team (assuming it's divided equally which it isn't). Please explain to me in simple terms why a reduction in (or loss of) this relatively small amount will have this catastrophic effect on Scottish football that you are sure will happen? The TV and media rarely gives us much notice outside Scotland anyway. I would presume that the loss of the minuscule TV revenue we currently have will in the short term be compensated by increased crowds as fans return to games that they could conceivably win.

It's not just the TV revenue, which would affect other clubs far more than us.

It's the consequent downgrading of the league as a whole and focus in the media even more on the English leagues than we have now.

 

There might be a short term increase fon crowds if the league was competitive but certainly on the West of Scotland kids in particular would gravitate to one of the OF.

 

They may also follow a "big" team like Chelsea etc.

 

Re the Norwegian example, what if Aberdeen or worse Hibs were the Rosenberg, winning titles and making Champions league money regularly?

 

Does that not create another financial imbalance?

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[socrates82]

This has never felt so appropriate....

 

 

You don't think we could beat Crusaders and the other two teams Copenhagen beat one season to get to the group stage?

 

Or you do think we'd lose our league's CL spot without the OF?

 

Or you don't think Hibs, ourselves and Aberdeen can average 15,000 in a league we can all realistically can win?

 

You seem to think TV is the answer to everything. We'll still have the BBC at minimum and they will still have an obligation to cover the national league in Scotland.

[socrates82]

It's not just the TV revenue, which would affect other clubs far more than us.

It's the consequent downgrading of the league as a whole and focus in the media even more on the English leagues than we have now.

 

There might be a short term increase fon crowds if the league was competitive but certainly on the West of Scotland kids in particular would gravitate to one of the OF.

 

They may also follow a "big" team like Chelsea etc.

 

Re the Norwegian example, what if Aberdeen or worse Hibs were the Rosenberg, winning titles and making Champions league money regularly?

 

Does that not create another financial imbalance?

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

That happens now. The OF has always been its own football bubble - almost like a league apart. It would make no difference if they left. It's just the rest of the teams would have bigger crowds and more opportunities to win silverware and compete in Europe = more revenue no matter what the domestic TV deal is (at minimum the BBC are required to pay us something and cover the national football league in Scotland - we are taxpayers too). Who cares if Sky TV doesn't buy our domestic league because the OF leave. We don't get much now anyhow.

 

As for media coverage. The Edinburgh based papers will cover us and the Glasgow based papers will ignore us - as now.

[Bowmans_Boot]

You are repeatedly bashing this TV money argument, but you've yet to answer my original question. The current TV deal is worth around 1.5M per year per team (assuming it's divided equally which it isn't). Please explain to me in simple terms why a reduction in (or loss of) this relatively small amount will have this catastrophic effect on Scottish football that you are sure will happen? The TV and media rarely gives us much notice outside Scotland anyway. I would presume that the loss of the minuscule TV revenue we currently have will in the short term be compensated by increased crowds as fans return to games that they could conceivably win. 

 

It isn't just the TV money, it is the marketability of the product, which would result in a decrease in revenue from sponsorship, hospitality etc etc.

 

I think short term the crowds may well go up, but longer term I struggle to see that continuing, especially if we go through tougher times and Hibs, say, have a decent side and win the league a few times. 

[socrates82]

It isn't just the TV money, it is the marketability of the product, which would result in a decrease in revenue from sponsorship, hospitality etc etc.

 

I think short term the crowds may well go up, but longer term I struggle to see that continuing, especially if we go through tougher times and Hibs, say, have a decent side and win the league a few times. 

 

Not all of us have been programmed to believe Scottish football is nothing without the Old Firm. The 14,000 or so folk turning up for Hearts vs Inverness or Hibs vs Morton and so on are not doing so because of the OF.

 

The idea that clubs like us and Hibs having MORE chance of winning titles will lead to LOWER crowds is completely messed up.

 

It's like Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan have created accounts on here and are desperately trying to make us believe the OF is Scottish football!