US Elections 2016

[aussieh]

If we have another nuclear arms race, it's going to be built in part with my money. Given the state that Reagan and his followers have left American infrastructure in, I'd strongly prefer that we actually got some decent transit infrastructure built and maybe replaced some of our aging power plants.

 

Trump has promised huge amounts of infrastructure spending. Things are going to get interesting when that hits Congress.

I was under the impression Reagan did well.

 

Obviously not.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

I was under the impression Reagan did well.

 

Obviously not.

 

Neoliberalism works great so long as you have decades of solid management built up by your predecessors that you can sell off for pennies on the pound to spur economic activity.  When those run out, it starts to look a bit shallow.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Neoliberalism works great so long as you have decades of solid management built up by your predecessors that you can sell off for pennies on the pound to spur economic activity.  When those run out, it starts to look a bit shallow.

 

That's some classic Democratic revisionism going on there folks. 

[jake]

No point. Nibs told us a couple of pages ago it was fake. Don't we all feel silly now.

 

Thats 2 threads ive read and both you haven't given an opinion just had a go at folk.

Just saying.

[Watt-Zeefuik]

That's some classic Democratic revisionism going on there folks. 

 

I don't particularly expect us to agree on this, but whatever else you can say about Reagan, the guff about the Laffer curve never worked out.  Cutting taxes didn't increase tax revenue -- it just spiked the deficit, which Republicans have been trying to find some way to blame on Democrats ever since.

 

He got a big economic boost out of his massive military spend, but at the cost of a massive deficit which it took Bush 41 and Clinton's tax increases to fix. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

I don't particularly expect us to agree on this, but whatever else you can say about Reagan, the guff about the Laffer curve never worked out.  Cutting taxes didn't increase tax revenue -- it just spiked the deficit, which Republicans have been trying to find some way to blame on Democrats ever since.

 

He got a big economic boost out of his massive military spend, but at the cost of a massive deficit which it took Bush 41 and Clinton's tax increases to fix. 

 

Dear, oh dear oh dear. He had to recover the disastrous and I do mean disastrous 4 years when the peanut farmer was in charge. What age are you?

Edited December 23, 2016 by Seymour M Hersh

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Dear, oh dear oh dear. He had to recover the disastrous and I do mean disastrous 4 years when the peanut farmer was in charge. What age are you?

 

Carter's tenure was hamstrung by the recoil from Nixon's price fixing while deficit spending to support the Vietnam War and the emergence of OPEC.  Carter was by no means a great President but the bulk of the mess was from Nixon's bull in the china closet approach as well as Johnson's Vietnam obsession.

 

But that's not what I was referring to.  From 32 through the early 70s, the US maintained a prolonged expansion of infrastructure construction, poverty amelioration, social insurance, and expansion of civil and voting rights.  Productivity steadily grew and was shared with workers as growing wages.

 

This started to fall apart during the Nixon administration, but it wasn't until Reagan that the big split happened.  This chart on productivity vs. wages shows it clearly:

 

http://www.epi.org?p=75607&view=embed&embed_template=charts_v2013_08_21&embed_date=20161224&onp=75643&utm_source=epi_press&utm_medium=chart_embed&utm_campaign=charts_v2

 

So where did all the wealth generated by the productivity growth go at that point? 

 

It went to wealthy investors.  This worked because the gains of the mid-20th century gave the US historically unparalleled family and community stability, strong social networks, high levels of volunteerism, strong schools, etc.  The benefits were unevenly distributed by geography and by race, but things improved for all Americans through that period.

 

Reagan was able to gut the social insurance system, slash taxes on the wealthy, and auction off public goods without the country collapsing because of the strength of the country built up over a century was strong enough to take up the slack.  However, instead of investing that in actual infrastructure, Reagan's policies sent all that money into the investor class, which in turn flooded it into Wall St.  Note the sudden spike in the Dow Jones in the 80s.

 

http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/historical/marketindexes.html

 

Meanwhile, America's great cities fell into decline as disinvestment in transportation, schools, and industrial investment collapsed and public properties were auctioned off for pennies on the dollar, asset stripped, then dumped. In the private sector, the corporate raiders did similar to long-standing family owned companies, often with disastrous results for both workers and for the environment.  (http://articles.latimes.com/1989-04-25/news/mn-1793_1_pacific-lumber-indictment-of-michael-milken-milken-s-indictment)

 

The one part of governance Reagan did pump money into was the military, but he changed spending structures so that even more money went to military contractors, leading to an unprecedented boom in the size and power of the big contracting outfits like Martin Marietta, Lockheed, Northrup, Grumman, Boeing, Raytheon, etc.

 

Meanwhile, the Reaganites kept insisting that all of these tax cuts will actually result in higher government revenue, promising that once all that was done, we could go back to actually putting money into social programs and infrastructure.  Of course, that never actually happened.  The Laffer Curve was just that -- a laugh.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve  So instead, the GOP spent the 1990s insisting that the horrors of the deficit (created, of course, by Reagan himself) meant we had to gut social programs even further.

 

So no, I'm not of the opinion that Reagan did well.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Great revisionism yank! 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Seymour M Hersh

[Unknown user]

Great revisionism yank!

One of you appears informed and articulate, the other a boorish dilettante, imho

[alwaysthereinspirit]

One of you appears informed and articulate, the other a boorish dilettante, imho

Boorish Dilattante? I know what one I'd rather spend of an evening with.

[Unknown user]

Boorish Dilattante? I know what one I'd rather spend of an evening with.

This news doesn't surprise me, but that's another thread altogether of course.

[alwaysthereinspirit]

This news doesn't surprise me, but that's another thread altogether of course.

You must be getting me mixed up with someone else.

Maybe someone that cares what you think.

[Unknown user]

You must be getting me mixed up with someone else.

Maybe someone that cares what you think.

Hey you engaged me chuckles, you called for my attention- I'd be happy enough if we never spoke again

[alwaysthereinspirit]

Hey you engaged me chuckles, you called for my attention- I'd be happy enough if we never spoke again

I doubt that'll happen on this thread.

[Seymour M Hersh]

One of you appears informed and articulate, the other a boorish dilettante, imho

 

And what does that make you?

[Unknown user]

And what does that make you?

A walking opinion

[Seymour M Hersh]

A walking opinion

 

Not how I'd describe you but hey, it's all about opinions.

[Unknown user]

Not how I'd describe you but hey, it's all about opinions.

Well yes and no, but an opinion without any apparent knowledge to back it up only carries the weight it's earned - all opinions are not created equal

[niblick1874]

Well, that's the Countering Disinformation and Propaganda act in place so Hillary can use it till her heart's content. Oh wait.

[niblick1874]

This mass murdering country destroying monster thinks that if he tells us a big boy did it and ran away we will all believe it. Maybe some, but not anyone that knows who and what he is. 

 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/onpoint/open-society-needs-defending-by-george-soros-2016-12

[niblick1874]

Now they've expeled 35 Russian diplomats and closed two compounds.

 

There are many diferences between Brexit and Trump winning the Election and one biggie is that with Brexit the same people are still puling the strings, they have not lost power. By the reactions of the outgoing organization and it's many tentacles it looks like they think they could lose power and therefor be found out for what they have been up to and who they are. This is not good. It's all or nothing for them and they will stop at nothing to keep it's grip on power. 

[Shanks said no]

Meanwhile the Donald meets the Don

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4073042/Is-Trump-s-weirdest-meeting-President-elect-holds-impromptu-press-conference-alongside-boxing-promoter-Don-King-two-men-dinner-together.html?ITO=1490

 

the flags are amongst many bizarre aspects of this.

[El Salvador]

What do people think about the rumours michelle obama is a TS?!

[aussieh]

What do people think about the rumours michelle obama is a TS?!

A bloke who killed Joan Rivers apparently. Alex Jones should be locked up in the funny farm. Weirdo

[jack D and coke]

A bloke who killed Joan Rivers apparently. Alex Jones should be locked up in the funny farm. Weirdo

I can't believe anybody takes him for real. An utter lunatic.

[aussieh]

I can't believe anybody takes him for real. An utter lunatic.

Bang on Jackie, either that or he's a professional liar/troll.

[El Salvador]

I watched some videos yesterday, very amusing albeit a load of p1sh.

[niblick1874]

And the reality is,

 

?We need to be elevating the Pied Piper candidates so that they are leaders of the pack and tell the press to [take] them seriously.

 

Media collusion with the Clinton campaign has also now been cemented, with a Clinton Foundation insider describing with delight a forthcoming article for the New York Times,

?Agree. I like it, especially the ?twisting previously known facts into absurd conspiracy theories?. I suspect we might be able to get repeat use of out of that one.?

 

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/breaking-wikileaks-exposes-white-house-media-clinton-colluding-label-critics-conspiracy-theorists/

 

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by niblick1874

[niblick1874]

So they tell us that the Russians are hacking into the worlds power grids as well as hacking into everyone's computer.

 

Does everyone know that the password for the computer of Podesta that was hacked was password? Anyone know about the Email asking him to change it?

 

While everyone is tucked up safely in their beds, behind the scenes the outgoing administration have been told to cease and desist with their attempts to keep Trump out, or else. They said ok we will not do anything but from the off they have gone back on their word. It is unheard of for an outgoing administration to do down the incoming President let alone what these scum are doing. They are calling for out and out revolution, make no mistake. They are purposely doing the opposite of what they should be doing which is calling for calm and if people think they won't be affected because they are not in America, think again. They have the world by the balls. These are sociopathic monsters who now realis that what they have been up to around the world is about to be reveled to the world unless they can stop Trump and nothing short of causing mayhem will suffice.

 

Some may think this shit below is a bit of a laugh but believe me, it's purpose is battlefield America and they are up front about it. 

 

 

All I can say is thank goodness the Russians are keeping a level head and not taking the bait. For how long can they keep that up? What else is coming down the pipe from these scum.

 

Most are not getting the runaway train these sociopaths will put in motion to get what they want. They are desperate.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

Ignoring the tin hat conspiracy theories, is anyone else concerned that the incoming president is incapable of speaking to the media in any form and instead limits himself to 140 character rants about nonsense? I'm loving the fact that Assange is considered a more relevant source of information than an entire intelligence community that has been set up and grown by both republicans and democrats.  When i say loving, what i actually mean is that i'm effin terrified.

 

Less than 20 days to go until he takes power and still no tax returns, still no divestment of businesses, still no press conferences and rants about people not wanting to be at his inauguration. 

[Francis Albert]

Ignoring the tin hat conspiracy theories, is anyone else concerned that the incoming president is incapable of speaking to the media in any form and instead limits himself to 140 character rants about nonsense? I'm loving the fact that Assange is considered a more relevant source of information than an entire intelligence community that has been set up and grown by both republicans and democrats.  When i say loving, what i actually mean is that i'm effin terrified.

 

Less than 20 days to go until he takes power and still no tax returns, still no divestment of businesses, still no press conferences and rants about people not wanting to be at his inauguration. 

Already got a few hundred Ford jobs relocated from Mexico to Michigan, and still two weeks until he even becomes President.

 

Meanwhile after 8 years Obama's promise to shut Guantanamo is still not fulfilled.

 

Give the guy a chance.

[Ulysses]

A bloke who killed Joan Rivers apparently. Alex Jones should be locked up in the funny farm. Weirdo

 

It's remarkable the kind of nonsense that gibbering lunatics are prepared to believe. 

 

Complete loolahs. 

[Beast Boy]

Catch up post. (Sorry)

[Beast Boy]

What do people think about the rumours michelle obama is a TS?!

Shit... feeling a bit confused now. Handsome/fine looking lady is Michelle.

[JamboX2]

So they tell us that the Russians are hacking into the worlds power grids as well as hacking into everyone's computer.

 

Does everyone know that the password for the computer of Podesta that was hacked was password? Anyone know about the Email asking him to change it?

 

While everyone is tucked up safely in their beds, behind the scenes the outgoing administration have been told to cease and desist with their attempts to keep Trump out, or else. They said ok we will not do anything but from the off they have gone back on their word. It is unheard of for an outgoing administration to do down the incoming President let alone what these scum are doing. They are calling for out and out revolution, make no mistake. They are purposely doing the opposite of what they should be doing which is calling for calm and if people think they won't be affected because they are not in America, think again. They have the world by the balls. These are sociopathic monsters who now realis that what they have been up to around the world is about to be reveled to the world unless they can stop Trump and nothing short of causing mayhem will suffice.

 

Some may think this shit below is a bit of a laugh but believe me, it's purpose is battlefield America and they are up front about it.

 

 

All I can say is thank goodness the Russians are keeping a level head and not taking the bait. For how long can they keep that up? What else is coming down the pipe from these scum.

 

Most are not getting the runaway train these sociopaths will put in motion to get what they want. They are desperate.

Wait, who has the balls to do down democracy and the good of the people?

 

Obama's administration that has sought to further and strengthen the rights of ordinary joes in America with improved Labour laws and health care? Furthered civil rights and equality to women, the LGBT community and ethnic minority groups?

 

Or the incoming administration of billionaire businessmen with their vested interests, reactionary religious zealots and their bigotry and their opposition to fairer access to things they take for granted like health care?

 

I'm lost. You claim conspiracy and plots to harm people yet the bad guys, to me are reversed. Trump and co will be ad for ordinary Americans. Very bad indeed. Wake up. The only conspiracy here is how Trump has duped poor people into something which harms them. Much like Brexit will only hammer poor communities for sometime to come.

[jake]

It's remarkable the kind of nonsense that gibbering lunatics are prepared to believe.

 

Complete loolahs.

 

What to believe though?

 

Who to believe?

 

Ok some of the websites that i think you are referring to are far out.

 

We are all guilty of believing the news that suits our views.

 

Do you not think that we are lied to by so called trusted news media ?

 

The more i read about the Syrian situation the more i question my views.

Does any of the so called fake news not make you at least question whats actually going on.

[Unknown user]

Wait, who has the balls to do down democracy and the good of the people?

 

Obama's administration that has sought to further and strengthen the rights of ordinary joes in America with improved Labour laws and health care? Furthered civil rights and equality to women, the LGBT community and ethnic minority groups?

 

Or the incoming administration of billionaire businessmen with their vested interests, reactionary religious zealots and their bigotry and their opposition to fairer access to things they take for granted like health care?

 

I'm lost. You claim conspiracy and plots to harm people yet the bad guys, to me are reversed. Trump and co will be ad for ordinary Americans. Very bad indeed. Wake up. The only conspiracy here is how Trump has duped poor people into something which harms them. Much like Brexit will only hammer poor communities for sometime to come.

Yeah, but your man's password was "password"

Sub human scum

[niblick1874]

Wait, who has the balls to do down democracy and the good of the people?

 

Obama's administration that has sought to further and strengthen the rights of ordinary joes in America with improved Labour laws and health care? Furthered civil rights and equality to women, the LGBT community and ethnic minority groups?

 

Or the incoming administration of billionaire businessmen with their vested interests, reactionary religious zealots and their bigotry and their opposition to fairer access to things they take for granted like health care?

 

I'm lost. You claim conspiracy and plots to harm people yet the bad guys, to me are reversed. Trump and co will be ad for ordinary Americans. Very bad indeed. Wake up. The only conspiracy here is how Trump has duped poor people into something which harms them. Much like Brexit will only hammer poor communities for sometime to come.

Oh really? We will start with the WikiLeaks. What do you think about what is in them and what it says about those still in power?

[niblick1874]

Yeah, but your man's password was "password"

Sub human scum

 

Did you know that?

[jake]

Wait, who has the balls to do down democracy and the good of the people?

 

Obama's administration that has sought to further and strengthen the rights of ordinary joes in America with improved Labour laws and health care? Furthered civil rights and equality to women, the LGBT community and ethnic minority groups?

 

Or the incoming administration of billionaire businessmen with their vested interests, reactionary religious zealots and their bigotry and their opposition to fairer access to things they take for granted like health care?

 

I'm lost. You claim conspiracy and plots to harm people yet the bad guys, to me are reversed. Trump and co will be ad for ordinary Americans. Very bad indeed. Wake up. The only conspiracy here is how Trump has duped poor people into something which harms them. Much like Brexit will only hammer poor communities for sometime to come.

 

Can you please explain why brexit will harm poor communities for sometime to come.

And do you really believe a vote for the clintons whose own clinton foundation was bankrolled by some of the worst tyrants are the vanguard of the poor.

 

Did obama protect the rights of native americans in the recent fracking scenarios.

 

Is obama and the wests concerns over Syria to do with the brutality of assads regime or was it more to do with the proposed fuel lines from russia.

 

Dont kid yourself on any of them they are all a much of muchness.

[Unknown user]

Did you know that?

What difference does it make?

[jake]

Yeah, but your man's password was "password"

Sub human scum

 

You might want to look at the contributors to the clinton foundation for sub human scum.

 

The whole big bad russians did it are deflecting from the content of what was leaked.

[niblick1874]

Did you know that?

 

 

What difference does it make?

 

 

One of you appears informed and articulate, the other a boorish dilettante, imho

[Ulysses]

What to believe though?

 

Who to believe?

 

 

 

Oh for **** ****ing sake.  These ****ing crazies are posting rumours that Michelle Obama is a ****ing TS - a ****ing homicidal one at that.

 

If, in those circumstances, you have some trouble working out who the **** to believe, here's some advice you might find helpful.

 

Get professional help.  Right now.  Because you need it more than you can possibly realise.

 

 

For **** sake.  There are some people for whom the word gullible was invented.  

[jake]

Oh for **** ****ing sake. These ****ing crazies are posting rumours that Michelle Obama is a ****ing TS - a ****ing homicidal one at that.

 

If, in those circumstances, you have some trouble working out who the **** to believe, here's some advice you might find helpful.

 

Get professional help. Right now. Because you need it more than you can possibly realise.

 

 

For **** sake. There are some people for whom the word gullible was invented.

 

Well i have not posted anything about that kind of stuff.

 

That wasnt what i was getting at.

I was though asking who do or what to believe in regards to more serious matters.

 

You do realise thats what i was questioning surely?

[jake]

A secratary of state whose foundation was given gifts in the hundreds of millions from foreign governments had major conflict of interest.

 

Yet we are to believe she is any better than trump.

 

She committed electoral fraud in her quest for nomination.

 

Theres a lot of serious stuff exposed by so called fake news.

 

The nasty stuff about obamas wife is not what i was referring to.

 

As an aside i see the editor of the new york times which has rubbished certain claims by so called fake news and ran stories with cia insider claims is also the ex director of the bbc who covered up the saville crimes.

 

Like i asked who or what do you believe ?

[niblick1874]

Oh for **** ****ing sake.  These ****ing crazies are posting rumours that Michelle Obama is a ****ing TS - a ****ing homicidal one at that.

 

If, in those circumstances, you have some trouble working out who the **** to believe, here's some advice you might find helpful.

 

Get professional help.  Right now.  Because you need it more than you can possibly realise.

 

 

For **** sake.  There are some people for whom the word gullible was invented.  

I have never mentioned any of that either, or Pizzagate, as much as you and others on here that know nothing would like everyone to believe. Now, tell us what you gleaned from the WikiLeaks?

Edited January 5, 2017 by niblick1874

[Watt-Zeefuik]

 

Did obama protect the rights of native americans in the recent fracking scenarios.

 

 

Just picking one here, the Obama Administration blocked the Dakota Access Pipeline which the Standing Rock protests were trying to stop.

 

Trump's nominee for Secretary of Energy, which oversees the pipeline, is on the board of directors of the parent company of Dakota Access.  Trump has promised to find a way to reverse the decision.

 

This is typical of the rest of these accusations.  Up is down, left is right, Obama is pro-oil, Trump will protect minorities. The Clinton Foundation which gave AIDS drugs to people in Africa was corrupt and had conflicts of interest but Trump's real estate empire built on heavily leveraged debt held by Deutschebank isn't anything to worry about.

 

It's not worth wasting time "fact checking" at this point because nobody supporting Trump is even paying attention to reality anymore.  It's all performance and bluster. 

[Watt-Zeefuik]

Im not altogether a fan of niblicks sources but some folk want to have a word about the way they post against him.

 

There's over 3,000 posts in this thread now so I'm not expecting anyone in their right mind to want to review them, but this thread holds a pretty strong record of myself and others bending over backwards to try to engage the guy on good faith and received repeated abuse and accusations for our troubles.  After enough of that vulgarity becomes the only rational response.

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

Already got a few hundred Ford jobs relocated from Mexico to Michigan, and still two weeks until he even becomes President.

 

Meanwhile after 8 years Obama's promise to shut Guantanamo is still not fulfilled.

 

Give the guy a chance.

I can't give him a chance, that's part of the problem over here. Giving him a chance means accepting the shite that comes with him. Btw, Ford are at it. They know that they'll be able to go back to Mexico at some point in the near future when Nafta has been renegotiated in their favor even more.

 

Guantanamo, totally agree with. Obama ****ed that up.

 

Mitch McConnel has just said that the democrats had better not block the Supreme Court nominations as the American people wouldn't stand for it. This is the same conservative arsepiece who spent his last few years blocking every single thing that obama wanted to do, even when it was good for them. You couldn't make it up.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Craig Gordons Gloves