Would Scotland be a better place if...

[coppercrutch]

You have already made a fool of yourself on this thread - please allow me to decide which discussions I can be a part of.

 

Many Hearts fans, and indeed many Scots are anti-Britain. They don't smash up Manchester city centre to prove it - that's the difference.

 

You are right. Many Celtic fans don't smash up Manchester City Centre to prove their dislike of Britain.

 

They support a terrorist organization that blows up Manchester City centre instead.

 

[Toggie88]

As you well know, I'm talking about how many of the teams in each of those leagues can realistically expect to win the championship.

 

Scotland - 2

England - 4

Spain - 5

Italy - 5

France - 3/4

Holland - 3

Germany - 4

[Dirk Diggler]

You are right. Many Celtic fans don't smash up Manchester City Centre to prove their dislike of Britain.

 

They support a terrorist organization that blows up Manchester City centre instead.

 

 

[$ilvery_Moon]

I'm a Hearts fan. I'm proud to be British. My country's flag is the Union flag because I am a British citizen, who holds a British passport and a British driving license. It seems going by the comments by some in this thread that you're not allowed to have this opinion, or you are classed as a "hun" or a "bigot" for doing so.

 

For the record I hate the pair of the Old Firm clubs equally. I also abhor bigotry and racism. It's time some people on here recognised that not everyone shares the same political opinions. There is NOTHING wrong with Unionism, and nothing wrong with being proud of your country. Unionism is also nothing to do with the past. We are ALL British citizens.

[redm]

I'm a Hearts fan. I'm proud to be British. My country's flag is the Union flag because I am a British citizen, who holds a British passport and a British driving license. It seems going by the comments by some in this thread that you're not allowed to have this opinion, or you are classed as a "hun" or a "bigot" for doing so.

 

For the record I hate the pair of the Old Firm clubs equally. I also abhor bigotry and racism. It's time some people on here recognised that not everyone shares the same political opinions. There is NOTHING wrong with Unionism, and nothing wrong with being proud of your country. Unionism is also nothing to do with the past. We are ALL British citizens.

 

I'm Scottish so therefore my country's flag is the Saltire. I'm patriotic in that I love my country and want good things for it, I celebrate its achievements and value its culture and history. I'm also British, but I think of that more as an admin sort of thing...I don't feel anything emotional about it at all. I see the separate countries as individual entities with their own set of 'characteristics' and they're so different that I don't know what this 'Britishness' thing even means.

 

What I do know is that Rangers fans claim to be proud of their 'Britishness' and their particular brand is characterised by things I associate with the English. They seem to revel in that ambiguity and unfortunately, they also tend to use it as something which winds up opposing fans. I can only assume that they're slightly confused. But anyway, my point is that they have their very own brand of Britishness and I don't like it one bit, but outwith a Rangers context I have absolutely no issues with the fact that I'm British at all. If someone asks me my nationality then I'd reply that I was Scottish because that's what I am first and foremost, and I'm also British but to me that's just something written on the front of my passport.

 

I can't speak for the other people on this thread, but maybe other people see it the same way that I do. I don't have a problem with people being proud to be British, I just can't stand the version of it that Rangers have created.

[this_is_my_story]

Far better to cull ra sellik. The history and ethos of that club is much more repulsive.

 

Rangers FC are reviled by many on here in an attempt to establish their PC credentials and prove they are "right on". All Rangers FC is guilty of is playing on the concept of Britishness, hardly a crime given what it says on our passports.

 

Vey well put, and so very true.

Great post,Therapist.

[this_is_my_story]

Thankfully, you are in a massive minority. And you are talking rubbish. Even the Scottish media is at last waking up to what Rangers are all about - hatred, violence, venom, backward political views.

 

They are an anachronism. So are you. I hope this helps.

 

What, and Celtic aren't? What exactly are you on about??!

[this_is_my_story]

read the rest of this thread, and some others. There are countless good posts by several posters which outline the difference in very clear terms.

 

Rangers have a massive, massive problem, which the rest of Scottish Football do not. And that includes Celtic.

 

To move forward as a modern, inclusive, decent football club, Rangers FC (the club) have to confront the fact that the mindset, politics and attitudes of the majority of their fans are stuck in the past - not going to get into Union/history debates here, it's all been done to death.

 

Celtic's fans are different - their 'plastic oirishness' is extremely compatible with and sellable in the modern world. Like it or not, thats a fact. Not the construct of a few 'pc handwringers' on here, but a fact.

 

Rangers 'aggresive unionism' is incompatible with the way the world is going. It attracts lowest common denominator types such as the BNP etc - and the evidence of that was clear to see in the streets of Manchester.

 

Read some of the threads again - nobody is being 'pro Celtic' for the sake of it - the simple fact is that Rangers FC have a huge image problem, of their own making. They should have seen this coming - they have to disasociate themselves from unionism, protestantism, Northern Ireland and right wing politics - IF they want to rid their club of the neanderthals it currently attracts.

 

No easy task - but Murray cannot sweep his problems under the carpet any longer.

 

So forget Celtic - in many ways they are irrelevant to this debate. Forget Scottish football. This is a Rangers problem. That is the point.

 

You genuinely could not make this up. Absolutely astounding.

[shaun.lawson]

I do agree they both rely on the past. Whilst Celtic have perhaps done more than Rangers to 'look' like they are changing I am not sure if that means much.

 

Their fans are still allowed to stand at games and do sniper actions at opposing fans. Their fans still take pro IRA banners into the ground (Although in sneakier fashions;)). Their away fans (Who Celtic FC MUST know names/addresses etc..) still sing "up the RA" at many away games. Their own players brandish t-Shirts of religious leaders that have nothing to do with football. Celtic FC do nothing about this. I dont see how anyone can truly say they have 'moved on' in any meaningful way. Token gestures, that is all IMO.

 

Rangers have made similar token gestures. Saltire flags for certain games. 'Official' words for Hello Hello without the offensive words etc...

 

IMO they are both doing the same thing. If the opinions on this board are a good barometer then celtic are just hiding their problems slightly better than rangers are.

 

They are both living in the past, but as you say they both rely on the past. I really don't see much between them in terms of ****ness.

 

PS - Daily mash has a good take on the situation last week as per usual !!

 

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/rangers-now-the-england-of-scotland-20080516956/

 

Celtic have, though, done a significantly better job in eradicating sectarian singing from Parkhead than Rangers have from Ibrox - though I accept it's still a huge problem among the away support. I found an utterly dispiriting video on YouTube yesterday of a bunch of neds singing the Celtic Symphony on a train back from Kilmarnock: if anything, it's not even the words, so much as the moronic behaviour that seems to automatically go with it (warning: LOUD!):

 

 

With regard to which, both Celtic FC and the Wolfe Tones should be ashamed of encouraging this nonsense back in 1987 - even if the political context was different back then. It's absolutely shocking that the band were allowed to film not just in front of Parkhead, but on the centre circle too: where they made a particular point of belting out their filth.

 

But then, this link strikes me as pretty depressing and neddish too (warning: LOUD!):

 

 

And it's not even Rangers fans singing it: it's Hearts fans. Watching these two videos made me realise my biggest objection has never even been the content of various songs - it's the inability of certain groups of people to behave like fully paid-up members of the human race that most sticks in my craw and, I suspect, most shocked the people of Manchester last week.

 

All that said though, no-one's going to argue we have anything like the same problem as the Old Firm; and what's motivated many of the responses to this thread is a growing perception that Celtic's problem, while big, is not as big as Rangers', and the gap between the two is likely to widen over the years ahead.

 

I suspect most football fans in the Irish Republic shake their head in weary distaste at the behaviour of many Celtic supporters - but as devolution and shared government strengthens, it must be probable that more and more Glaswegians will gradually gain a similar perspective. The more years we move on from the Troubles, the more attitudes are likely to change and moderate: and the problem is, while I can see this happening within the Celtic ranks, I'm not at all convinced the same will occur among Rangers' support.

 

EDIT: Mods, I realise you'll probably take the above two links down, but I hope you don't. They've not been posted to provoke anyone, but merely in the spirit of what we're discussing on this thread. Those sorts of songs are a sad reality within Scottish football and Scottish society: like it or not.

[shaun.lawson]

just to clarify, it was 20 years ago. "Celtic Symphany" was written to celebrate the club's centenary - with the full blessing of the club at the time.

 

slightly off topic but I'm not sure about your statement about the US government, in what ways did they support or help fund the IRA in the late 80's? yes there was a lot of funding from US individuals but how was this encouraged, tacitly or otherwise, by the government?

 

as for "espanyolification" I think I introduced you to that term on a previous debate, it's a cracker

 

Yes, you certainly did! There's very few references to it on the web, but I imagine it'll become more and more commonly used over the years ahead.

 

As for the US government: further to Geoff's reply above, the key is remembering just how powerful the Irish republican movement was and remains in America. Far, far too many people are committed to it for any administration to have taken a strong line against the IRA (depicted as romantic freedom fighters seeking liberation from imperialist tyranny: which plays perfectly to the US' view of itself).

 

But 9/11 changed everything. Indeed, it's probable that the first reaction of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness on hearing about it was to utter a succint "oh ****!" As a result, even if Sinn Fein/IRA wished to return to violence, it no longer can: without American backing, the movement is nothing. Don't get me wrong - things were already changing, and Celtic FC were beginning to change too (helped by finally regaining the footballing ascendancy from Rangers: success and prosperity tends to eradicate extremist forms of behaviour, as evidenced by the hooligan elements many big city clubs still suffer from in the Championship and League One - but not the Premier League); 9/11 just ensured this change would be permanent.

[Konrad von Carstein]

KOTN said...

This thread, and many others, emerged in the light of Rangers fans despicable and entirely predictable behaviour in manchester. It is possible to discuss Rangers, their fans and their many problems without bringing Celtic into it you know - in terms of European excursions at least, they don't have the same problem

 

Missed my point I think...you described rangers as being about "hatred, etc, etc" I responded to that...celtic fans (as a group) can reasonably be described as this also.

 

Don't have the same problem??...ahem! I wonder, I wonder...cfc supporters travelling to watch cfc play in a major European final in England..nope can't forsee any trouble happening in that scenario

[King of the North]

double post

[King of the North]

You genuinely could not make this up. Absolutely astounding.

 

Here is my post again, in full. I suggest you read it all, not just the bit you highlighted. Then read some of Shaun lawson's excellent contributions to this thread.

 

 

read the rest of this thread, and some others. There are countless good posts by several posters which outline the difference in very clear terms.

 

Rangers have a massive, massive problem, which the rest of Scottish Football do not. And that includes Celtic.

 

To move forward as a modern, inclusive, decent football club, Rangers FC (the club) have to confront the fact that the mindset, politics and attitudes of the majority of their fans are stuck in the past - not going to get into Union/history debates here, it's all been done to death.

 

Celtic's fans are different - their 'plastic oirishness' is extremely compatible with and sellable in the modern world. Like it or not, thats a fact. Not the construct of a few 'pc handwringers' on here, but a fact.

 

Rangers 'aggresive unionism' is incompatible with the way the world is going. It attracts lowest common denominator types such as the BNP etc - and the evidence of that was clear to see in the streets of Manchester.

 

Read some of the threads again - nobody is being 'pro Celtic' for the sake of it - the simple fact is that Rangers FC have a huge image problem, of their own making. They should have seen this coming - they have to disasociate themselves from unionism, protestantism, Northern Ireland and right wing politics - IF they want to rid their club of the neanderthals it currently attracts.

 

No easy task - but Murray cannot sweep his problems under the carpet any longer.

 

So forget Celtic - in many ways they are irrelevant to this debate. Forget Scottish football. This is a Rangers problem. That is the point.

 

 

 

It is far too simplistic just to lump the of together - in terms of image, one seems to be doing much much better than the other. What myself, Shaun and some of the other more insightful posters are doing is trying to establish why that might be?

 

What is astounding is why that is so difficult to grasp for so many...

[John Findlay]

Here is my post again, in full. I suggest you read it all, not just the bit you highlighted. Then read some of Shaun lawson's excellent contributions to this thread.

 

It is far too simplistic just to lump the of together - in terms of image, one seems to be doing much much better than the other. What myself, Shaun and some of the other more insightful posters are doing is trying to establish why that might be?

 

What is astounding is why that is so difficult to grasp for so many...

 

KOTN: Your keyword is image. Celtic have learnt alot from New Labour.

 

Personally I see no difference between the two clubs both as bad as each other when you see past the IMAGE.

 

 

 

John

[King of the North]

KOTN said...

This thread, and many others, emerged in the light of Rangers fans despicable and entirely predictable behaviour in manchester. It is possible to discuss Rangers, their fans and their many problems without bringing Celtic into it you know - in terms of European excursions at least, they don't have the same problem

 

Missed my point I think...you described rangers as being about "hatred, etc, etc" I responded to that...celtic fans (as a group) can reasonably be described as this also.

 

Don't have the same problem??...ahem! I wonder, I wonder...cfc supporters travelling to watch cfc play in a major European final in England..nope can't forsee any trouble happening in that scenario

 

 

They can... but in terms of their European excursions they certainly promote the cuddly plastic oirish image, in the sameway the tartan army promote the lovable jock..

 

This may be contrived, it may be excruciating - but it is miles, miles better than the hateful aggression which the huns seem to enjoy.

 

As for what would happen if Celtic were to find themselves playing a major final in England, we may never know. If we look at their recent travels to Europe, including 80 000 of them in Spain, we see a very different experience for the locals than when the hun comes to town.

[King of the North]

KOTN: Your keyword is image. Celtic have learnt alot from New Labour.

 

Personally I see no difference between the two clubs both as bad as each other when you see past the IMAGE.

 

 

 

John

 

Wouldn't argue - the problem for the huns, which has been my point all along, is that their image attracts real low lifes - think BNP, Chelsea Headhunters etc. That is evident when we look at the events of last week - and the real question is what is Murray doing about it. Also, more to the point...

 

WHERE THE FECK IS GORDON SMITH???

[John Findlay]

Wouldn't argue - the problem for the huns, which has been my point all along, is that their image attracts real low lifes - think BNP, Chelsea Headhunters etc. That is evident when we look at the events of last week - and the real question is what is Murray doing about it. Also, more to the point...

 

WHERE THE FECK IS GORDON SMITH???

 

Gordon Smith cannot lambast his real paymaster so best to keep stum.

 

The man should resign forthwith. No backbone whatsoever.

 

 

 

John

[redm]

Gordon Smith cannot lambast his real paymaster so best to keep stum.

 

The man should resign forthwith. No backbone whatsoever.

 

 

 

John

 

 

Hang on...Smith still hasn't said a thing about it?

I just assumed that I had probably missed it.

 

That's actually unbelievable....

[coppercrutch]

Hang on...Smith still hasn't said a thing about it?

I just assumed that I had probably missed it.

 

That's actually unbelievable....

 

That is one thing we are all in agreement on.

 

Outrageous. I actually thought he might be pretty decent when he first came to the fore. But alas it is 'same old'....

 

Sad.

 

Anyway we don't need him to confirm to us that Rangers are ****.

[shaun.lawson]

KOTN: Your keyword is image. Celtic have learnt alot from New Labour.

 

Personally I see no difference between the two clubs both as bad as each other when you see past the IMAGE.

 

 

 

John

 

Perhaps, John. Political change certainly makes it easier for Celtic to cultivate a much more positive image - but then, what's image got to do with the point that Celtic played a European final in Seville, the fans behaved themselves, and received glowing comments from that city's mayor as well as an award from UEFA; while Rangers played a European final in Manchester, and their fans created merry hell - having done much the same in their previous continental showpiece 36 years earlier?

 

That's not 'image'. That's reality.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

As long as Rangers fans come to Tynecastle and sing about a battle that took place in another country over 300 years ago and Celtic fans come to Tynecastle and chant their support for a terrorist organisation that killed and injured thousands of innocent people - I say boot them both.

 

Hearts have lots of women and kids coming to the games now, why should they be subjected to this hatred that has nothing to do with football? If I was Romanov I would not give any ticket allocation to either set of these sick dinosaurs.

 

No doubt some Celtic supporters will now claim that it doesn't happen anymore. But everyone who goes to Hearts v Celtic matches knows that it does.

[topcat]

My biggest problem with Rangers is that so much of their support is formed of the hideous Glaswegian underclass.

 

The NIrish Unionist pish is just something for them to attach their bitter little beings to. When you've got feck all going for you, I guess it's easier to base your identity on pointless hatred rather than anything remotedly positive.

 

If that makes me PC, then so be it.

 

Quite how your expression of sneering disdain for the "hideous Glaswegian underclass" could mark you out as PC is hard to discern.

 

But it is at least honest.

 

You consider the culture they come from to be inferior to yours and make little attempt to hide that.

 

Too many hun-bashing posts on this thread have failed to confront that internal hypocricy. Heaping abuse on people for waving the wrong flag while simultaneouly, and without irony, showering them with vitriol for hating another set of people for waving another wrong flag.

 

It's obviously easy to come to the conclusion that their culture is primitive and backwards compared to that of we metropolitan, literate, educated, cosmopolitan types but the people of Harthill are still people nonetheless.

 

Voltaire once said "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." I'm not that commited but it's a noble sentiment.

 

Personally I've got little time for the Sashes, Union Flags or Flutes (except maybe Jethro Tull) but some people do.

 

If that's their bag they're welcome to it.

 

If tolerance and pluralism are worthwhile then they still must be extended to people we may find distasteful. One theme that has been recurring throughout this thread is that of posters who think that the Hunnish sense of identity is contrary to the nature of the real modern day Scotland, or rather to what the posters conception of modern Scotland is. This may explain some of the soft lines being taken by some on Celtics more objectionable supporters who tarnish Ireland's good name more than ours.

 

The unfortunate truth is that in a country of 5 million people an awful lot of them are hideous an awful lot of them are Glaswegian and far too many of them form an underclass and a lot of these have more interest in the politics of Northern Ireland than is healthy.

 

These people are may not be part of what we would like Scotland to be but they form part of what Scotland is. They can't be wished out of existence and the hypothetical solution of abolishing Rangers and/or Celtic isn't going to mean that the spirit of the Scottish Enlightenment finally reaches Airdrie and Coatbridge any time soon.

 

They are as much a part of what Scotland is as the Perthshire laird drinking champers out the back of his Range Rover in the Murrayfield car park or the Drunken beardy folk singer in the basement of the royal oak or the proclaimers.

 

Civilization moves forward inexorably but at glacial pace. At the end of the 19th century councillors could get elected in Edinburgh on a "send the Irish back" ticket, Hibs started employing protestants 50 years before Maurice Johnston. 30 years ago My Mother's firm didn't employ Catholics, Women or Fifers (They now employ both Catholics and Women). The world moves on.

 

West central Scotland is lagging behind but it's only going to move in one direction.

 

Sorry for rambling

[topcat]

Perhaps, John. Political change certainly makes it easier for Celtic to cultivate a much more positive image - but then, what's image got to do with the point that Celtic played a European final in Seville, the fans behaved themselves, and received glowing comments from that city's mayor as well as an award from UEFA; while Rangers played a European final in Manchester, and their fans created merry hell - having done much the same in their previous continental showpiece 36 years earlier?

 

That's not 'image'. That's reality.

 

In Manchester there were tens of thousands of ****ed up Holidaymakers in town for the sole purpose of watching the game on the big screen which then failed producing a large group of young, angry, drunk men. That would have constituted a serious policing challenge if it was a few hundred Partick Thistle supporters, never mind thousands of Huns.

 

The reality is that Celtic support in Seville was a similar powderkeg which merely lacked a similar spark. Though they still managed to produce at least one stabbing.

[Drew Busby !]

Perhaps, John. Political change certainly makes it easier for Celtic to cultivate a much more positive image - but then, what's image got to do with the point that Celtic played a European final in Seville, the fans behaved themselves, and received glowing comments from that city's mayor as well as an award from UEFA; while Rangers played a European final in Manchester, and their fans created merry hell - having done much the same in their previous continental showpiece 36 years earlier?

 

That's not 'image'. That's reality.

 

Exacto-fecking-mundo Shaun.

 

Manchester 2008. Pamplona 2007. Villreal 2007. All reality.

 

If I was unlucky enough to be at some Spanish holiday destination at the same time as celtic were playing some euro-game, then damn right their two-faced plastic-oirish self-image would do my head in.

 

On the other hand, if I were unlucky enough to be in the same town at the same time and place as the rangers support... then I and my family could be unfortunate enough to find ourselves promenading at the same time as the blue-noses start engaging in street-warfare with the local police.

 

Image or reality ? On balance I'd rather be stuck with the fans that are trading - however falsely - on their image. For the sake of my wellbeing if nothing else...

[Makween]

You've got to wonder how many of the "Thelick are so much better" brigade have ever travelled to Parkhead.

[Sherlock]

That is one thing we are all in agreement on.

 

Outrageous. I actually thought he might be pretty decent when he first came to the fore. But alas it is 'same old'....

 

Sad.

 

Anyway we don't need him to confirm to us that Rangers are ****.

 

Me too, CC.

 

I even defended his appointment on here.

 

Can't believe i though he'd be a Platini-esque champion of the Scottish game.

 

He's just a bawbag.

[shaun.lawson]

In Manchester there were tens of thousands of ****ed up Holidaymakers in town for the sole purpose of watching the game on the big screen which then failed producing a large group of young, angry, drunk men. That would have constituted a serious policing challenge if it was a few hundred Partick Thistle supporters, never mind thousands of Huns.

 

The reality is that Celtic support in Seville was a similar powderkeg which merely lacked a similar spark. Though they still managed to produce at least one stabbing.

 

Except that I think there's more than a decent chance it would've all kicked off even had the TV screen not failed - and why? Because Rangers fans, to put it mildly, have 'form' in this area. Celtic, meanwhile, lose game after game on their CL travels - yet have never been involved in anything like what occurred on Wednesday, or more than a few occasions prior to that.

 

Seville certainly wasn't perfect - but you're not going to tell me UEFA and the mayor of the city were somehow conned by Celtic's image, are you? When supports have a troublesome element, that element is invariably at its worst when following its chosen team abroad - yet when Celtic travel abroad, very little seems to happen. Why?

 

Where was the 'spark' you've alluded to above in Villarreal? Where was it in Pamplona? Where was it when they actually won a European trophy in 1972? Quite an achievement, that: win a piece of European silverware, then get banned from defending it. Rangers, moreover, are the only visting fans to have caused serious trouble in Barcelona in living memory - and are therefore responsible for the hugely restrictive policing measures brought in against all British supporters there since. Thanks, lads. "We're British, and love England!" So what do they do? Trash a major English city, and make life far more difficult for British football fans in general.

 

But then, nothing this lot are capable of can possibly surprise me: this is, after all, a support who've appropriated the Israeli flag while simultaneously performing Nazi salutes and even, I'm sure I read somewhere a while back, singing the Horst Wessel song at one point. Rangers FC: you could not make it up.

[Commander Harris]

You've got to wonder how many of the "Thelick are so much better" brigade have ever travelled to Parkhead.

quite, I've never had a glass bottle thrown at me at Ibrox. I have at parkhead.

[shaun.lawson]

You've got to wonder how many of the "Thelick are so much better" brigade have ever travelled to Parkhead.

 

I have. I felt intimidated and uncomfortable, as much because of Strathclyde's finest as the home supporters. We won, mind you: it was the famous 3-2 win in February 2000. And nowhere is anyone suggesting Celtic don't have big problems: all I've argued is they are not as bad as Rangers' horrendous ones, and they have far more chance of sorting them out over the years ahead than their eternal rivals from across the city.

[Makween]

I have. I felt intimidated and uncomfortable, as much because of Strathclyde's finest as the home supporters. We won, mind you: it was the famous 3-2 win in February 2000. And nowhere is anyone suggesting Celtic don't have big problems: all I've argued is they are not as bad as Rangers' horrendous ones, and they have far more chance of sorting them out over the years ahead than their eternal rivals from across the city.

 

Have you travelled to Ibrox? Was it anywhere near as bad?

[Commander Harris]

Have you travelled to Ibrox? Was it anywhere near as bad?

 

ah, but that's our fault!

 

we behave like "huns" and provoke the innocent celtic fans.

[Drew Busby !]

You've got to wonder how many of the "Thelick are so much better" brigade have ever travelled to Parkhead.

 

 

Yes. They're both detestable.

Yes. 95% of their fanbase share equally contemptible mirror-image views of the sectarian divide.

 

But. And it's quite a big but....celtic have manged to take part in European games and finals without engaging the local riot-police in street battles.

 

Rangers however ? Manchester 2008. Pamplona 2007. Villareal 2006 ... Barcelona 1972.

 

Do you understand THAT difference in behaviour ? Do you understand WHY this makes celtic fans appear "better" to objective eyes ? "Better" by virtue of NOT getting involved in mindless battles with the riot-police...by NOT disgracing and shaming their country with the kind of violent behaviour that their blue counterparts have displayed in these cities over 40 years ?

 

I can type this post again if this one is too much for you to take-in in one go.

Take your time now...

[John Findlay]

This is quite simple.

 

So long as those who wear Green, White and Gold keep calling me an Orange *******.

 

Those who wear Red, White and Blue keep calling me a fenian ******* then I regard both as the same side of the disgusting coin.

 

 

 

John

[shaun.lawson]

Have you travelled to Ibrox? Was it anywhere near as bad?

 

Yes - I'd say my experience was similar. I have no desire to follow Hearts to either ground in the foreseeable future - but I'd have to point out that Rangers fans see us as their harmless kid brother, whereas Celtic fans view us as Huns without the bus fare. As a result, it stands to reason that Jambos will have worse personal experiences of Celtic than Rangers - but that doesn't hold true for all fans across the board.

[Drew Busby !]

Yes - I'd say my experience was similar. I have no desire to follow Hearts to either ground in the foreseeable future - but I'd have to point out that Rangers fans see us as their harmless kid brother, whereas Celtic fans view us as Huns without the bus fare. As a result, it stands to reason that Jambos will have worse personal experiences of Celtic than Rangers - but that doesn't hold true for all fans across the board.

 

Also no surprise when we have a hard-core ... represented by some major rangers apologists on this board - who absolutely LOVE to live up to the mini-hun stereotype when they get within sight of a celtic fan.

 

We can't cure the huns bigotry problem but it's still long overdue at Tynecastle. I'd encourage the club to take whatever steps it can when UJ's, red-hands, nazi salutes etc make their sporadic but unwelcome appearance in our support.

[Makween]

 

Yes. They're both detestable.

Yes. 95% of their fanbase share equally contemptible mirror-image views of the sectarian divide.

 

But. And it's quite a big but....celtic have manged to take part in European games and finals without engaging the local riot-police in street battles.

 

Rangers however ? Manchester 2008. Pamplona 2007. Villareal 2006 ... Barcelona 1972.

 

Do you understand THAT difference in behaviour ? Do you understand WHY this makes celtic fans appear "better" to objective eyes ? "Better" by virtue of NOT getting involved in mindless battles with the riot-police...by NOT disgracing and shaming their country with the kind of violent behaviour that their blue counterparts have displayed in these cities over 40 years ?

 

I can type this post again if this one is too much for you to take-in in one go.

Take your time now...

 

Grow up. I'm obviously not thick and neither are you, so I don't see what you think that you're gaining by pretending that I am. Just as a wee pointer, though, if you're going to accuse someone of lacking intelligence, don't mis-spell words in the same sentece. It's "persistent". Pedantic? Perhaps. At least I'm not resorting to obviously untrue name-calling, though.

 

Thelick fans certainly play up to their "cuddly" image when abroad. However (and no, I don't have sources, which I guess must mean that I'm making it all up ), they do have previous when travelling to England in particular for giving it the big one about the IRA and getting involved in the same kind of scenes - albeit on a smaller scale, maybe because they'd taken less fans - as were seen in Manchester.

 

A wee question here. If Celtic had gone down to a European final with 100,000 (or however many it was at the latest update - has it exceeded Scotland's population yet?) fans in England, do you honestly think that things would've been any different? I certainly don't, although it's obviously conjecture.

 

Anyway, in Scotland, I certainly don't think that Thelick fans have shown themselves to be any better. As I said, have you ever travelled to Celtic Park? We certainly don't get as much hassle as we do at Ibrox, although obviously it must be because we're all mini Huns, so on etc.

 

Feel free to repeat yourself once again, though, if you really want to. It's what you've been doing for the past n amount of pages, so it shouldn't be all that difficult for you.

[Makween]

Also no surprise when we have a hard-core ... represented by some major rangers apologists on this board - who absolutely LOVE to live up to the mini-hun stereotype when they get within sight of a celtic fan.

 

Ah, there we go. Wondered how long it'd take. It's obviously all down to the Hearts support, as opposed to Thelick fans maybe being partially at fault

 

Obviously if Thelick fans are only going for us because we're Proddies, that makes it okay.

[coppercrutch]

Also no surprise when we have a hard-core ... represented by some major rangers apologists on this board - who absolutely LOVE to live up to the mini-hun stereotype when they get within sight of a celtic fan.

 

We can't cure the huns bigotry problem but it's still long overdue at Tynecastle. I'd encourage the club to take whatever steps it can when UJ's, red-hands, nazi salutes etc make their sporadic but unwelcome appearance in our support.

 

Fair enough for 2 of them but UJ's ?!!

 

I would quite happily support anyone taking hearts to court if the flag of our (Insert country nation or whetever is the correct term) was banned from Tyncastle. Nothing wrong with it. We do know why certain people bring it to games but that is their choice. In fact IIRC the UJ is flown from the stadium itself !!

 

I would equally say that if a Celtic supporter wanted to bring an Irish flag that is up to them. I don't agree with it and I know exactly what many of them are trying to say with it. However they are simply waving a flag of a country. That is theri choice. To deny them that choice would be bigoted.

 

If you are advocating the banning by the club of the Union Jack then you are also a bigot.

 

I truly find it difficlut to see how people are so unaware of how hypocritical they are being ?

 

TopCat's post above sums it up excellently.

 

Lets just agree on this despising of the OF, and leave this banning the UJ nonsense on the sidelines for once.

[Makween]

Fair enough for 2 of them but UJ's ?!!

 

I would quite happily support anyone taking hearts to court if the flag of our (Insert country nation or whetever is the correct term) was banned from Tyncastle. Nothing wrong with it. We do know why certain people bring it to games but that is their choice. In fact IIRC the UJ is flown from the stadium itself !!

 

I would equally say that if a Celtic supporter wanted to bring an Irish flag that is up to them. I don't agree with it and I know exactly what many of them are trying to say with it. However they are simply waving a flag of a country. That is theri choice. To deny them that choice would be bigoted.

 

If you are advocating the banning by the club of the Union Jack then you are also a bigot.

 

I truly find it difficlut to see how people are so unaware of how hypocritical they are being ?

 

TopCat's post above sums it up excellently.

 

Lets just agree on this despising of the OF, and leave this banning the UJ nonsense on the sidelines for once.

 

Don't be silly. Obviously everyone who has ever recognised the UJ as their country's flag is a bigot, and that viewpoint contains no irony whatsoever.

[IMA MAROON]

As long as Rangers fans come to Tynecastle and sing about a battle that took place in another country over 300 years ago .......QUOTE]

 

....And sent them homeward to think again..........

 

How long ago was that battle?

[shaun.lawson]

Also no surprise when we have a hard-core ... represented by some major rangers apologists on this board - who absolutely LOVE to live up to the mini-hun stereotype when they get within sight of a celtic fan.

 

We can't cure the huns bigotry problem but it's still long overdue at Tynecastle. I'd encourage the club to take whatever steps it can when UJ's, red-hands, nazi salutes etc make their sporadic but unwelcome appearance in our support.

 

Absolutely. A few weeks back, I was chatting to some Newcastle fans. When they asked me what club I supported, and I said "Hearts", one of them responded with "Hearts? You're just Huns without the bus fare".

 

Now, to be fair, this made a change from the usual pitying retort of "you poor *******" coupled with laughter that I've had to get used to over the past couple of years, but it was profoundly depressing. The bigots are a terrible stain on this club's good name - and while I realise the song about Large John being aware of something isn't sectarian, I linked to some Hearts neds belting it out earlier in the thread because those same usual suspects, sad to relate, tend to be the ones behind other songs too. In singing them, they embarrass all of us.

[shaun.lawson]

Don't be silly. Obviously everyone who has ever recognised the UJ as their country's flag is a bigot, and that viewpoint contains no irony whatsoever.

 

Great. So why do no set of supporters appropriate the UJ apart from Rangers and a minority of Hearts fans? There are 134 league clubs in England and Scotland (sorry, make that 133: nice knowing you, Gretna!) - why don't more fans wave the Union Jack, given it's such a natural thing to do?

 

I'm against the banning of flags too, by the way - but it's obvious why most people bring the UJ or Tricolore to games: to provoke, rather than express simple pride in their country.

[coppercrutch]

Don't be silly. Obviously everyone who has ever recognised the UJ as their country's flag is a bigot, and that viewpoint contains no irony whatsoever.

 

Apologies !!

 

 

....And sent them homeward to think again..........

 

How long ago was that battle?

 

That is a rather good point.

 

Songs putting down the English are welcome.

Songs putting down Catholics are not.

 

Personally I think both are rather unpleasant. (Even though I do happily sing along to the Jock one, being a member of the Scottish Travel club for over a decade now. Woops that sort of blows my "mini Hun" tag. Sorry !! )

[Makween]

Great. So why do no set of supporters appropriate the UJ apart from Rangers and a minority of Hearts fans? There are 134 league clubs in England and Scotland (sorry, make that 133: nice knowing you, Gretna!) - why don't more fans wave the Union Jack, given it's such a natural thing to do?

 

First of all, that's just absolutely incorrect. A great deal of English teams have "appropriated" the UJ, and Rangers and Hearts aren't even the only two in Scotland - I've seen Airdrie and Killie fans with it.

 

In any case, even if you were right, I don't see what point you're trying to make. The Union Flag, in and of itself, is not offensive. If anyone takes offence at it, they're saying more about themselves than the flag.

 

Go on, lads. First one to tell me what's offensive about the Union Flag gets a chocolate coin.

[Commander Harris]

Great. So why do no set of supporters appropriate the UJ apart from Rangers and a minority of Hearts fans? There are 134 league clubs in England and Scotland (sorry, make that 133: nice knowing you, Gretna!) - why don't more fans wave the Union Jack, given it's such a natural thing to do?

 

I'm against the banning of flags too, by the way - but it's obvious why most people bring the UJ or Tricolore to games: to provoke, rather than express simple pride in their country.

the supporters of many teams in England use the union flag.

[coppercrutch]

Great. So why do no set of supporters appropriate the UJ apart from Rangers and a minority of Hearts fans? There are 134 league clubs in England and Scotland (sorry, make that 133: nice knowing you, Gretna!) - why don't more fans wave the Union Jack, given it's such a natural thing to do?

 

I'm against the banning of flags too, by the way - but it's obvious why most people bring the UJ or Tricolore to games: to provoke, rather than express simple pride in their country.

 

You serious ? I am sure I have seen numerous English games where the UJ is prevalent. Unless somebody would like to correct me ?

 

PS. This has nothing to do with 'Why' people would bring it to the game. This is simply to do with their right to if they so wish. As I would agree with the right to bring an Irish flag.

[shaun.lawson]

Grow up. I'm obviously not thick and neither are you, so I don't see what you think that you're gaining by pretending that I am. Just as a wee pointer, though, if you're going to accuse someone of lacking intelligence, don't mis-spell words in the same sentece. It's "persistent". Pedantic? Perhaps. At least I'm not resorting to obviously untrue name-calling, though.

 

Thelick fans certainly play up to their "cuddly" image when abroad. However (and no, I don't have sources, which I guess must mean that I'm making it all up ), they do have previous when travelling to England in particular for giving it the big one about the IRA and getting involved in the same kind of scenes - albeit on a smaller scale, maybe because they'd taken less fans - as were seen in Manchester.

 

A wee question here. If Celtic had gone down to a European final with 100,000 (or however many it was at the latest update - has it exceeded Scotland's population yet?) fans in England, do you honestly think that things would've been any different? I certainly don't, although it's obviously conjecture.

 

Anyway, in Scotland, I certainly don't think that Thelick fans have shown themselves to be any better. As I said, have you ever travelled to Celtic Park? We certainly don't get as much hassle as we do at Ibrox, although obviously it must be because we're all mini Huns, so on etc.

 

Feel free to repeat yourself once again, though, if you really want to. It's what you've been doing for the past n amount of pages, so it shouldn't be all that difficult for you.

 

Two things. In answer to the question you posed Drew, no, I don't think Celtic fans would've behaved anything like as badly - unless, that is, they'd have been playing a European final against Chelsea. Or worse, Millwall...

 

And second: sorry, but it's blindingly obvious why we don't get as much hassle at Ibrox as at Parkhead. Rangers fans patronise us (probably the reason why some were happy for us when we got that 36-year old monkey off our backs a decade ago), whereas Celtic and Hearts see ourselves as rivals. Do you think any set of fans anywhere have an easier ride when travelling to take on rivals, as opposed to a club they enjoy a better relationship with?

[IMA MAROON]

That is a rather good point.

 

Songs putting down the English are welcome.

Songs putting down Catholics are not.

 

Personally I think both are rather unpleasant. (Even though I do happily sing along to the Jock one, being a member of the Scottish Travel club for over a decade now. Woops that sort of blows my "mini Hun" tag. Sorry !! )

 

I was in Dortmund for the Scotland game when McCann scored and chants like 'We hate England more than you' and 'Stand up if you hate England' were sung all the time. It was a bit embarrassing.

 

Would Scotland be a better place if there were no Scots?

[shaun.lawson]

You serious ? I am sure I have seen numerous English games where the UJ is prevalent. Unless somebody would like to correct me ?

 

PS. This has nothing to do with 'Why' people would bring it to the game. This is simply to do with their right to if they so wish. As I would agree with the right to bring an Irish flag.

 

Genuinely, I disagree - as I see it, the St George's Cross has become massively more prevalent in the past 10-15 years, no doubt largely as football has become a much more middle class, mainstream game. If you look at pictures of England fans at Italia 90, the Union Jack was almost always the flag they sported; yet by Euro 96, this had changed, and this remains the case now.

[coppercrutch]

Absolutely. A few weeks back, I was chatting to some Newcastle fans. When they asked me what club I supported, and I said "Hearts", one of them responded with "Hearts? You're just Huns without the bus fare".

 

Now, to be fair, this made a change from the usual pitying retort of "you poor *******" coupled with laughter that I've had to get used to over the past couple of years, but it was profoundly depressing. The bigots are a terrible stain on this club's good name - and while I realise the song about Large John being aware of something isn't sectarian, I linked to some Hearts neds belting it out earlier in the thread because those same usual suspects, sad to relate, tend to be the ones behind other songs too. In singing them, they embarrass all of us.

 

http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/flags/[email protected]

 

 

 

"Football clubs, especially from the north of England, often use a union jack design employing team colours. This is an official Newcastle United flag from the mega store at St James Park. It is signed by many of the players. It employs a Union Jack design in blight blue, white and black, with the team arms on centre."

 

Shaun I always read your posts. You usually have a lot of sense to say so I hope you wont take this the wrong way.

 

When it comes to this particular subject you are talking nonsense !!

 

I think you are letting certain views could your judgement. Fair enough we all do that sometimes. Myself included.