Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[Optimus Prime]

Don't want to get into a full blow debate here but i'll state the following:

 

The trams will run to the airport.

 

The trams will be cost effective once operational.

 

There will be a demand for more once the initial network is up and running.

 

Time will prove me correct on all three.

 

[pablo]

All those improvements are effectively repairing the damage caused by the tram works that shut down many businesses on the route.

 

Haymarket is a Train Station, and has slightly improved from what it was.  It is still a bit shit that when you go through the barriers there is sod all to do other than go to your platform and wait.

 

I meant the areas in general are on the up.  New businesses opening up and there's more people going through both Haymarket and Shandwick Place.

 

I like Haymarket train station, it's unrecognisable from the old one.  Spacious and light.  I's have included an entrance on to Dalry Road , but all in all , it's a good building for ?25 million.

[willie wallace]

Road repairs.utility works,schools,leisure centres,redundancies and any other outstanding important matters must be completed before any more money is spent on non essential vanity projects.

Regarding peripheral gains from the trams I don't believe any developer would invest hundreds o millions of pounds in a project just because a tram goes there.

[The Real Maroonblood]

We're paying ?15.5million per year for the next 30 years just to pay off the ?466million loan the Coonsil took out to complete the line.

The trams themselves are running at a loss, being subsidized by rising bus prices.

 

The city has had to move to fortnightly bin collections, has closed down several leisure centres, has crumbling schools and disgraceful road surfaces.

Staff are due to strike over the next round of job losses.

 

How in the flying feck does spending another ?500mil to extend the trams down Leith Walk help things?

 

Do people have any idea how long it would have to be running for just to break even on that amount of outlay??????

 

Probably a few hundred years.

[Maple Leaf]

I live in a city of 500,000+ people near Toronto.  Our council recently rejected a plan to build to build a Light Rail Transit system, similar to the one in Edinburgh.

 

The pros and cons on the plan were argued loudly for many months prior to the decision to reject it.  Now there's bitter recriminations from the plan's supporters, saying that we've missed a golden opportunity to revitalise the city, bring in new development, increase employment.

 

The citizens of Edinburgh are in a position to speak knowledgeably about Trams.  Overall, has it been a good thing to do?  Do the benefits outweigh the negatives?  Is it one of those projects where only time will tell?

 

Any comments will be appreciated, as I have a feeling that the matter here isn't dead yet.

[Ray Gin]

It's probably been nice for the tiny percentage of the city who actually live and work on it's route.

 

For the rest of us it has been a pretty pointless inconvenience, and led to massive cutbacks elsewhere meaning the state of our roads are an absolute joke.

[Cade]

Does the tram bring anything that a new bus route would not have provided?
No.

 

We could have bought some double length bendy buses for a few million quid but spunked a billion on a railway instead.

[cannonfoda]

.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Is the council still telling porkies about the genuine cost of the white elephant.  One of the major credit rating firms did an independent costing a few years ago. ?1.6billion was their conclusion with parts of the costs being hidden in other Council budgets.  I can't think of any axe they'd have to grind with the Council.

[3fingersreid]

Would prefer to wait and see what comes out of the enquiry first before anymore money is spent to be honest

[Stuart Lyon]

3fingersreid That would be the sensible approach but the CeC couldn't support that and has spent some ?400k examining the cost of extending it from York Place to Pilrig Street! How can they justify this? Of course they claim it is a roaring success with high passenger use then mention in the passing the fact that it still runs at a loss. They asked the citizens to vote on a congestion charge and they were defeated; pity they don't have the balls to ask the citizens to vote on any future tram developments! Raising parking charges and extending the parking hours to later at night and on a Sunday is a feeble attempt to raise more money and/or force people onto public transport. Bus frequencies on a Sunday are poor despite Ms Hinds saying that the town is popular for retail and leisure on that day hence the increase in "creative" parking. Hearts fans have for a number of years suffered early Sunday KOs and I don't recognise any effort by the CeC to cater for that situation. Rant over.

[FWJ]

It was predicted to run at a loss for the first few years. Because of higher than predicted passenger numbers that loss is lower than forecast. The best way for it to make more money is to extend it through the most densely populated area of Scotland - Leith Walk.

 

Billions of pounds are going to be spent on railway improvements in Scotland - electrification and lengthening platforms and such like. Is this a 'vanity project'? We could easily keep using DMUs. And let's not forget that every passenger on Scotrail is subsidised by over 11p for every kilometre they travel. Is this an unconscionable waste? Should we abandon all railways in Scotland and put everyone on buses - those hundreds of millions of pounds a year could pay for lots of road repairs, nurses and teachers.

[frankblack]

It was predicted to run at a loss for the first few years. Because of higher than predicted passenger numbers that loss is lower than forecast. The best way for it to make more money is to extend it through the most densely populated area of Scotland - Leith Walk.

 

Billions of pounds are going to be spent on railway improvements in Scotland - electrification and lengthening platforms and such like. Is this a 'vanity project'? We could easily keep using DMUs. And let's not forget that every passenger on Scotrail is subsidised by over 11p for every kilometre they travel. Is this an unconscionable waste? Should we abandon all railways in Scotland and put everyone on buses - those hundreds of millions of pounds a year could pay for lots of road repairs, nurses and teachers.

The 22 route has seen its service cut yet is still not overcrowded. If you think that extension is suddenly going to make the Tram profitable you are a fantasist.

 

That extension would cost at least another half billion. What essential council services would you shut down to pay for it?

 

Comparing spending on the Railways to this proposed extension is a flawed argument. The council were given adequate funding for a line to Leith but ****ed it up. The Railways carry more passengers and provide a useful service unlike the Tram that isn't usable for most people.

[FWJ]

The 22 route has seen its service cut yet is still not overcrowded. If you think that extension is suddenly going to make the Tram profitable you are a fantasist.

That extension would cost at least another half billion. What essential council services would you shut down to pay for it?

Comparing spending on the Railways to this proposed extension is a flawed argument. The council were given adequate funding for a line to Leith but messed it up. The Railways carry more passengers and provide a useful service unlike the Tram that isn't usable for most people.

Where does this figure for 'at least ' ?500million for the extension come from?

 

Do you think the Borders Railway was an expensive waste of money - there was a bus service in place? Is maintaining a railway to places like Fort William and Thurso is a vanity project (especially since there are lots of buses to these towns - and the bus is faster?)

Edited November 4, 2015 by FWJ

[Stuart Lyon]

Why has the CeC consistently rejected supporting the re-opening of the South Suburban line to passenger traffic? 

[FWJ]

Why has the CeC consistently rejected supporting the re-opening of the South Suburban line to passenger traffic?

 

I'm not convinced re the South Sub TBH.

[frankblack]

Where does this figure for 'at least ' ?500million for the extension come from?

 

Do you think the Borders Railway was an expensive waste of money - there was a bus service in place? Is maintaining a railway to places like Fort William and Thurso is a vanity project (especially since there are lots of buses to these towns - and the bus is faster?)

 

Let me repeat myself yet again as you clearly don't get the point.  Rail infrastructure is simply getting its share of the government pot on public spending, and will allow more people to commute to and from Edinburgh for work and probably take a good few cars off the road.  A bus service that probably ran about 4 times a day to and from Edinburgh is hardly comparable.

 

The council got its money for the line to Leith and blew it.  They can't go back begging for more and have no right to take money from other planned infrastructure projects.

 

The figure of ?500m is a guess, based on how poorly the budget was managed previously, and also the fact that they will have to re-dig the roads down to Leith that have since been restructured for other work.  In any case its irrelevant as the council can't afford it whatever it costs.

[pablo]

Worth remembering that the utility diversion work in Leith Walk has been done and the hardware, including the tracks and trams are already bought. The enquiry will deal with the monumental feck up delivering the system. Future expansion should be considered on it's own merit.

 

Edinburgh Gateway station opening next year will put even more passengers on the route too.

[Koolkeith]

If you're one of the few people who live in Edinburgh that are able to get the tram on a regular basis, then of course you're going to love it. Unfortunately most of us don't. First of all there aren't many stops and most of them are not in areas heavily populated by housing. It's great if you live out near the airport for a quick commute into town or work out at Edinburgh park or RBS building. Ultimately it's a waste of money and an express bus service could have played this role for a fraction of the price.

[FWJ]

Let me repeat myself yet again as you clearly don't get the point.  Rail infrastructure is simply getting its share of the government pot on public spending, and will allow more people to commute to and from Edinburgh for work and probably take a good few cars off the road.  A bus service that probably ran about 4 times a day to and from Edinburgh is hardly comparable.

 

The council got its money for the line to Leith and blew it.  They can't go back begging for more and have no right to take money from other planned infrastructure projects.

 

The figure of ?500m is a guess, based on how poorly the budget was managed previously, and also the fact that they will have to re-dig the roads down to Leith that have since been restructured for other work.  In any case its irrelevant as the council can't afford it whatever it costs.

I thought it might have been a guess.

[frankblack]

I thought it might have been a guess.

 

Much the same as the council's management of the project, which is why we only have half a line for 3 times the estimate?

 

So, are you still proposing that we cancel infrastructure projects in other parts of Scotland to finish a line that is already served with about 4 or more bus routes?

[frankblack]

If you're one of the few people who live in Edinburgh that are able to get the tram on a regular basis, then of course you're going to love it. Unfortunately most of us don't. First of all there aren't many stops and most of them are not in areas heavily populated by housing. It's great if you live out near the airport for a quick commute into town or work out at Edinburgh park or RBS building. Ultimately it's a waste of money and an express bus service could have played this role for a fraction of the price.

 

Yes, and also the Trams hold up the traffic lights ahead of them affecting both pedestrians and other traffic.

[3fingersreid]

I thought it might have been a guess.

FWJ can I ask do you use the trams ?

 

I've never been on one myself , reason being despite living in stenhouse (probably along with broomhouse the biggest area with housing that the tram passes)the nearest team stop to me is just under a mile from where I stay (and that's not a guess it was measured) , a number 22 bus stop is approx 150 yards from my house , which really doesn't make it a tough decision as to what mode of transport I'll use going into town . Whilst I could at my age and health reach the tram stop there are many many more that can't ,but what's happening now is the 22 service is being reduced ,the no1 bus IF it appears is 1 every 40 mins . I take from that, that the CEC want us on the tram!

Out walking the dog right now 4 trams have went past and they can't be more than 10% full and it's pretty much the same on the trams after 7pm

 

I'm not anti tram ,what Iam tho is against the cost of the tram . It seems like we're chucking good money after bad when other things like housing stock , schools and other public services are in a desperate way . When finances pick up yes extend it but until then I'd wait .

[FWJ]

FWJ can I ask do you use the trams ?

I've never been on one myself , reason being despite living in stenhouse (probably along with broomhouse the biggest area with housing that the tram passes)the nearest team stop to me is just under a mile from where I stay (and that's not a guess it was measured) , a number 22 bus stop is approx 150 yards from my house , which really doesn't make it a tough decision as to what mode of transport I'll use going into town . Whilst I could at my age and health reach the tram stop there are many many more that can't ,but what's happening now is the 22 service is being reduced ,the no1 bus IF it appears is 1 every 40 mins . I take from that, that the CEC want us on the tram!

Out walking the dog right now 4 trams have went past and they can't be more than 10% full and it's pretty much the same on the trams after 7pm

I'm not anti tram ,what Iam tho is against the cost of the tram . It seems like we're chucking good money after bad when other things like housing stock , schools and other public services are in a desperate way . When finances pick up yes extend it but until then I'd wait .

Yes, from ingleston park and ride into town. I also use the buses regularly.

The implementation of the trams in Edinburgh was very poor and this is being investigated (isn't there some question as to why Transport Scotland was taken off the project?) but trams themselves are a great idea and new lines and systems are going in around the UK and Europe.

Edinburgh wasn't built for cars.

[FWJ]

Much the same as the council's management of the project, which is why we only have half a line for 3 times the estimate?

 

So, are you still proposing that we cancel infrastructure projects in other parts of Scotland to finish a line that is already served with about 4 or more bus routes?

As I've said the management of the project was poor - but this is being investigated and I don't doubt lessons will be learned. I don't think it justifies writing-off trams permanently. I'm not sure either about the 'three times' the estimate.

 

I fully approve of the Borders Railway too, even though it replaced a bus service that operated approximately half-hourly from around half-five in the morning to half-nine at night - 28 buses a day, rather than 'probably 4'.

 

I would certainly cancel the full dualling of the A9 and A96 and spend the ?6,000,000,000 on improvements to these two roads but also on every other long-distance rural route in Scotland - the West Highlands, the South-West and the Borders. (To put ?6b into some kind of perspective that's ?100,000 for every man, woman and child in Inverness).

 

I'm not sure about the figures but I feel that Edinburgh does pretty badly compared to the rest of Scotland as far as public money on its transport infrastructure goes. As I say I don't know but that's my feeling.

[3fingersreid]

As I've said the management of the project was poor - but this is being investigated and I don't doubt lessons will be learned. I don't think it justifies writing-off trams permanently. I'm not sure either about the 'three times' the estimate.

I fully approve of the Borders Railway too, even though it replaced a bus service that operated approximately half-hourly from around half-five in the morning to half-nine at night - 28 buses a day, rather than 'probably 4'.

I would certainly cancel the full dualling of the A9 and A96 and spend the ?6,000,000,000 on improvements to these two roads but also on every other long-distance rural route in Scotland - the West Highlands, the South-West and the Borders. (To put ?6b into some kind of perspective that's ?100,000 for every man, woman and child in Inverness).

I'm not sure about the figures but I feel that Edinburgh does pretty badly compared to the rest of Scotland as far as public money on its transport infrastructure goes. As I say I don't know but that's my feeling.

Not sure the people of the borders, south west and the west highlands will be happy with that , best of luck to you

[frankblack]

As I've said the management of the project was poor - but this is being investigated and I don't doubt lessons will be learned. I don't think it justifies writing-off trams permanently. I'm not sure either about the 'three times' the estimate.

 

I fully approve of the Borders Railway too, even though it replaced a bus service that operated approximately half-hourly from around half-five in the morning to half-nine at night - 28 buses a day, rather than 'probably 4'.

 

I would certainly cancel the full dualling of the A9 and A96 and spend the ?6,000,000,000 on improvements to these two roads but also on every other long-distance rural route in Scotland - the West Highlands, the South-West and the Borders. (To put ?6b into some kind of perspective that's ?100,000 for every man, woman and child in Inverness).

 

I'm not sure about the figures but I feel that Edinburgh does pretty badly compared to the rest of Scotland as far as public money on its transport infrastructure goes. As I say I don't know but that's my feeling.

 

The A9 is one of the worst roads in Scotland, and upgrading that to full Dual Carriageway is a fairly urgent requirement.  There is no real alternative road that meets the needs for that direction north, and its an accident blackspot due to speed limits and overtaking difficulties.

 

I can't see the Scottish Government cancelling that project in favour of giving out more money to Edinburgh for a non-essential Tram route to Leith.

[Koolkeith]

Yes, and also the Trams hold up the traffic lights ahead of them affecting both pedestrians and other traffic.

That's what annoys me now.  Traffic light situation is a joke now in the centre of town because of the trams.  Can take up to 10 minutes from the west end to the stop at Jenners.

[Koolkeith]

FWJ can I ask do you use the trams ?

 

I've never been on one myself , reason being despite living in stenhouse (probably along with broomhouse the biggest area with housing that the tram passes)the nearest team stop to me is just under a mile from where I stay (and that's not a guess it was measured) , a number 22 bus stop is approx 150 yards from my house , which really doesn't make it a tough decision as to what mode of transport I'll use going into town . Whilst I could at my age and health reach the tram stop there are many many more that can't ,but what's happening now is the 22 service is being reduced ,the no1 bus IF it appears is 1 every 40 mins . I take from that, that the CEC want us on the tram!

Out walking the dog right now 4 trams have went past and they can't be more than 10% full and it's pretty much the same on the trams after 7pm

 

I'm not anti tram ,what Iam tho is against the cost of the tram . It seems like we're chucking good money after bad when other things like housing stock , schools and other public services are in a desperate way . When finances pick up yes extend it but until then I'd wait .

Spot on.  Like you say the only largely populated area near the tram has the 22 that is just as quick. It's only busy at peak times. 

[Chester™]

?145m to extend fully to Newhaven:

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/city-council-to-extend-edinburgh-trams-to-newhaven-1-3806798#axzz3qWmJaALt

 

The issue there is they are asking the Scottish Government for help. I cant see that happening. The money isnt there otherwise. IIRC, the last set of accounts had the Council ?1.2bn in debt. Frontline services are being cut beyond all recognition (I see that every time I go to work). Its absolutely brutal at the minute. Couple that with the ridiculous continuation of the Council Tax Freeze and, frankly, there isnt a pot to piss in.

[pablo]

Isn't Edinburgh being considered for a city grant of 1 billion pounds in the near future? If successful take the 145 million from that.

[FWJ]

The A9 is one of the worst roads in Scotland, and upgrading that to full Dual Carriageway is a fairly urgent requirement.  There is no real alternative road that meets the needs for that direction north, and its an accident blackspot due to speed limits and overtaking difficulties.

 

I can't see the Scottish Government cancelling that project in favour of giving out more money to Edinburgh for a non-essential Tram route to Leith.

It simply isn't the case that the A9 is "one of the worst roads in Scotland" - according to EuroRAP (the European Road Assessment Programme) it's one of the safest. If you check the maps on the site you'll see there are many much more dangerous roads - notably in the West Highlands, the South West and Borders.

But you're right they won't cancel it because (if you'll excuse the mixed metaphor) it's been a political football for so long, they've painted themselves into a corner.

[FWJ]

Isn't Edinburgh being considered for a city grant of 1 billion pounds in the near future? If successful take the 145 million from that.

The 'City Deal' isn't it? Already been granted to a few places, don't see why not Edinburgh.

[Pans Jambo]

They should extend it doon to the Pans like it used to be. The 26 is P1sh.

[FWJ]

I believe the City Deal is proposed for Edinburgh and the Lothians so I don't see why East Lothian should miss out. Tram along London Road, Meadowbank, Portobello, Musselburgh....

[luckyBatistuta]

?145m to extend fully to Newhaven:

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/city-council-to-extend-edinburgh-trams-to-newhaven-1-3806798#axzz3qWmJaALt

 

The issue there is they are asking the Scottish Government for help. I cant see that happening. The money isnt there otherwise. IIRC, the last set of accounts had the Council ?1.2bn in debt. Frontline services are being cut beyond all recognition (I see that every time I go to work). Its absolutely brutal at the minute. Couple that with the ridiculous continuation of the Council Tax Freeze and, frankly, there isnt a pot to piss in.

I dont for one second believe if they say it will cost ?145m, then that will be the total cost. It will probably end up closer to ?250/300m imo.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

I would be in favour of bringing in a tourist tax that could be plough back into projects that benefit both residents and visitors the tram being one such project. Happens all over the world and could bring more people round in favour of extending the tram if it doesn't appear to be using money that we have to raise ourselves. I can see how people are worried about congestion as that has increased certainly since the trams started and opinion will always be split but I have gradually started to use the tram despite being sceptical at the outset.

[Coco]

There's no doubt that the tram line will be extended.  The highest priority of the new Council Chief Executive is to get a tram from the airport to the sea.

 

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/cost-cutting-council-chief-andrew-kerr-here-to-stay-1-3856068

 

Expect continued sales of Council assets, further cuts to services, cuts to employment and the likes to pay for it.

[frankblack]

Isn't Edinburgh being considered for a city grant of 1 billion pounds in the near future? If successful take the 145 million from that.

That might cover a chunk of their existing debt but they still wouldn't have the money to build new lines.

[pablo]

That might cover a chunk of their existing debt but they still wouldn't have the money to build new lines.

We'll see. That's not what a City Deal is though. It's money from the Treasury to accelerate growth. Edinburgh is the most prosperous city in the UK bar London. Population growth is expected to rocket in the next couple of decades. We're going to be more trams at some point I'd say. Just like Manchester, Nottingham, Dublin and countless other places.

[The Real Maroonblood]

They should extend it doon to the Pans like it used to be. The 26 is P1sh.

A No26 every 8 minutes that's really piss poor service.

[Dunks]

I believe the City Deal is proposed for Edinburgh and the Lothians so I don't see why East Lothian should miss out. Tram along London Road, Meadowbank, Portobello, Musselburgh....

 

The City Deal bid is for the South East, so Edinburgh, the Lothians, Fife and Scottish Borders

 

http://www.acceleratinggrowth.org.uk/

[Seymour M Hersh]

Worth remembering that the utility diversion work in Leith Walk has been done and the hardware, including the tracks and trams are already bought. The enquiry will deal with the monumental feck up delivering the system. Future expansion should be considered on it's own merit.

 

Edinburgh Gateway station opening next year will put even more passengers on the route too.

 

Leith Walk's pavement was massively increased in size last year for no obvious reason. It would have to be reduced again to fit cars, buses and trams in. Unless you think LW should go the way of Princes St and only allow trams, buses and a black cabs on it.

[Nookie Bear]

We'll see. That's not what a City Deal is though. It's money from the Treasury to accelerate growth. Edinburgh is the most prosperous city in the UK bar London. Population growth is expected to rocket in the next couple of decades. We're going to be more trams at some point I'd say. Just like Manchester, Nottingham, Dublin and countless other places.

Why does population growth lead to a need for more trams?

[pablo]

Why does population growth lead to a need for more trams?

People need to move about. Doesn't necessarily have to be trams, but most growing prosperous cities have an integrated transport network with at least a secondary system to support road traffic. As we've started with a tramline I wouldn't imagine that we'll switch to anything else now.

[Nookie Bear]

People need to move about. Doesn't necessarily have to be trams, but most growing prosperous cities have an integrated transport network with at least a secondary system to support road traffic. As we've started with a tramline I wouldn't imagine that we'll switch to anything else now.

 

The problem is that trams are merely replacing buses, and using the same routes. They are not an alternative.

[pablo]

The problem is that trams are merely replacing buses, and using the same routes. They are not an alternative.

Up to a point. It's only the Haymarket to York Place section that shares the road with buses. To see the full benefits, the network will need to be extended. If and when that happens remains to be seen.

[Brian Whittaker's Tache]

I heard on good authority (or so I think) from someone in the property sector that the line will be extended to Leith soon.

The expensive work has all been done and the funding I was told would come from the development of St James Centre with the developer taking care of the costs of the tram line extension in exchange for the council sorting out the compulsory purchases needed to allow the new St James development to go ahead. 

 

The lack of a tram line is what's holding up the new build at Ocean Terminal (big patch of waste ground in front)

 

This was all told to me by an property agent trying to sell me the lease on a property at OT so could be sales patter/BS?

[Cade]

Why would the coonsil spend all that time and money to narrow the road all the way down Leith Walk only to dig it up again to widen it for the trams extension?

[Chester™]

Up to a point. It's only the Haymarket to York Place section that shares the road with buses. To see the full benefits, the network will need to be extended. If and when that happens remains to be seen.

How would you direct the tram to Newhaven, in a way that wasnt directly sharing with buses?