Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[Nookie Bear]

Have you heard of a thing called developer contributions? I'll let you look it up.

 

Yes because you still have to develop your infrastructure regardless of the financial climate. Phase 1 of the tram was a priority for the cities development and growth.

 

 

Basic services like providing the city with a light rapid transit system.

 

I suppose that is the difference: some see it as a "nice to have but can't afford it", you see it as basic service.

[Hugh Phamism]

Now that we do have the trams, what the city needs is a fully integrated travel system. Trams & Buses should work together, i.e. a single ticket for all transport modes. To have the buses and trams fighting the same routes is crazy. 

[reaths17]

Have you heard of a thing called developer contributions? I'll let you look it up.

what,who,where and how much developers money went into the tram line ?

 

so we deliberately set out to make princes st a hub for mobile phone shops ?

 

the tram has brought nothing in reguards infrastructure, it goes nowhere that you don't need a bus to get to it to start with and once on you need a bus to continue your journey to where you were going.

 

it has done nothing to increase business anywhere in the city, it has curtailed a bus journey to the airport that was faster than it is, it increased journey times around the city humungously, while hugely increasing pollution at the same time.

 

theres absolutely nothing prospered because of the tram, you can waffle all you want but you wont be able to produce a service of any kind that's better if indeed not worse since the trams.

Edited November 18, 2015 by reaths17

[Optimus Prime]

what,who,where and how much developers money went into the tram line ?

 

so we deliberately set out to make princes st a hub for mobile phone shops ?

 

the tram has brought nothing in reguards infrastructure, it goes nowhere that you don't need a bus to get to it to start with and once on you need a bus to continue your journey to where you were going.

 

it has done nothing to increase business anywhere in the city, it has curtailed a bus journey to the airport that was faster than it is, it increased journey times around the city humungously, while hugely increasing pollution at the same time.

 

theres absolutely nothing prospered because of the tram, you can waffle all you want but you wont be able to produce a service of any kind that's better if indeed not worse since the trams.

Developer contributions were a key funding mechanism a decade ago for the section of the route that was shelved.

 

 

Sorry but you are wrong. I've answered these point previously on the thread, my response lies there. 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Optimus Prime

[Optimus Prime]

I suppose that is the difference: some see it as a "nice to have but can't afford it", you see it as basic service.

 

Providing the city with modern transport infrastructure is a basic requirement for governments/councils. Relying on just a bus service is simple not an option for a rapidly expanding city. 

[reaths17]

Developer contributions were a key funding mechanism a decade ago for the section of the route that was shelved.

 

 

Sorry but you are wrong. I've answered these point previously on the thread, my response lies there.

eh, we had a chunk of this paid for and cancelled it, then used our own cash to build a useless chunk WTF with capitals.

 

you havn't mustered a single shred of evidence for trams in the last couple of pages so it'll be a cold day at work before I go trawling throuth this thread for very little reasons for a tram.

Edited November 18, 2015 by reaths17

[Stuart Lyon]

The scheme used to entice companies was called CERT - City of Edinburgh Rapid Transport -another failure of what was then Lothian Region and then CeC. It was a guided bus route some of which was built between Carricknowe and the Gyle.

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12227271.City_apos_s_transport_plan_is_far_from_a_Cert/

 

So the CeC have a proven track record of failure on transport infrastructure programmes that precede the vanity trams!

Edited November 18, 2015 by Stuart Lyon

[Optimus Prime]

eh, we had a chunk of this paid for and cancelled it, then used our own cash to build a useless chunk WTF with capitals.

 

you havn't mustered a single shred of evidence for trams in the last couple of pages so it'll be a cold day at work before I go trawling throuth this thread for very little reasons for a tram.

 

Your choice, I've laid down the arguments before and regular posters on this thread will be aware of them.

 

It'll be a cold day at work when I spend time repeating what I've already said on the same thread. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

?

Erm, if or when a tramline reaches these places then, if they are like other places worldwide, the people that live there are more likely to leave their car for a tram than a bus.

 

That's just fanciful horse-shit. People who drive to work will continue to do so with or without a tram as a car gives them flexibility and speed. If the toy town railway to the airport is anything to go by any new tramlines built (and god forbid they're allowed to do so) will be slower than the damn bus anyway

Edited November 18, 2015 by Seymour M Hersh

[FWJ]

That's just fanciful horse-shit. People who drive to work will continue to do so with or without a tram as a car gives them flexibility and speed. If the toy town railway to the airport is anything to go by any new tramlines built (and god forbid they're allowed to do so) will be slower than the damn bus anyway

That's not what I said. If people want to drive they will continue to do so. But if they are thinking about using public transport they are more likely to if it is a tram than a bus. I use the tram regularly. On my trip I could use a tram or a bus or I could drive - but I choose the tram because it's more comfortable and it saves having to find and pay for a parking space.

 

Are all tramlines 'toy town railways' - or just Edinburgh's?

Edited November 18, 2015 by FWJ

[Sheriff Fatman]

Now that we do have the trams, what the city needs is a fully integrated travel system. Trams & Buses should work together, i.e. a single ticket for all transport modes. To have the buses and trams fighting the same routes is crazy. 

 

They already have a single ticket, buy a day ticket on either and you can use it on both

[frankblack]

That's not what I said. If people want to drive they will continue to do so. But if they are thinking about using public transport they are more likely to if it is a tram than a bus. I use the tram regularly. On my trip I could use a tram or a bus or I could drive - but I choose the tram because it's more comfortable and it saves having to find and pay for a parking space.

 

Are all tramlines 'toy town railways' - or just Edinburgh's?

 

People will drive as long as it is more convenient.

 

When it is not convenient (parking issues, etc) then they will more likely choose a bus because the Tram route is nowhere near your departure or destination points.

[blairdin]

They already have a single ticket, buy a day ticket on either and you can use it on both

When I was in Calgary in summer I liked their way of ticketing. Tickets are valid on the two C-train lines (trams) and buses. You can buy a day ticket, equivalent of our daysaver. Alternatively, you bought a transfer ticket. It's basically a single ticket valid for one hour and you can change from C-train to bus as many times as you want in that hour to get where you're going. A better idea than a single in a fully integrated system.

 

I was against trams, I just don't think Edinburgh needed them yet. But now we have one, we need to make the most of it. That means extending it and integrating it properly with the buses.

Edited November 18, 2015 by blairdin

[frankblack]

When I was in Calgary in summer I liked their way of ticketing. Tickets are valid on the two C-train lines (trams) and buses. You can buy a day ticket, equivalent of our daysaver. Alternatively, you bought a transfer ticket. It's basically a single ticket valid for one hour and you can change from C-train to bus as many times as you want in that hour to get where you're going. A better idea than a single in a fully integrated system.

 

I was against trams, I just don't think Edinburgh needed them yet. But now we have one, we need to make the most of it. That means extending it and integrating it properly with the buses.

 

The reality is they don't have the money to do any more work and are making staff redundant to cut costs.

 

This talk of dividends from LRT paying for the extension to Leith are pie in the sky from Labour, who are never much good with economics.

[Darren]

I wouldn't have gone ahead with the trams project in the first place but now they are in operation I'd go through with the original plans and create the Leith/Granton/Haymarket loop as well as reinstating trains on the south suburban circle. Have a travel ticket that covers all trains, trams and buses within the city boundaries.

[EIEIO]

Passed the site of the Edinburgh gateway railway station today another year before its open but, big step in linking trains and trams. Access to and from gyle and airport to trains to fife , Dundee ,Aberdeen etc.

 

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[Seymour M Hersh]

That's not what I said. If people want to drive they will continue to do so. But if they are thinking about using public transport they are more likely to if it is a tram than a bus. I use the tram regularly. On my trip I could use a tram or a bus or I could drive - but I choose the tram because it's more comfortable and it saves having to find and pay for a parking space.

 

Are all tramlines 'toy town railways' - or just Edinburgh's?

 

Having no real experience of other tram networks (important use of the word networks) I have to say just the one foisted on us by half-wits.  Even you have to agree it's not a really tram from Haymarket to the Airport. 

[Seymour M Hersh]

Passed the site of the Edinburgh gateway railway station today another year before its open but, big step in linking trains and trams. Access to and from gyle and airport to trains to fife , Dundee ,Aberdeen etc.

 

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Do you honestly think people on the East Coast mainline ar going to rush to use this?  If you're in Fife and are a family of 4 going on holiday are you going to get to the nearest station (could be a few miles at least) board train with luggage for 4 (at what cost I'm unsure) then transfer at the link with said luggage & kids onto the tram for a ?20-?25 10 minute journey?  Or are you going to drive/get a friend to drive you/get a taxi door to door?

[EIEIO]

Do you honestly think people on the East Coast mainline ar going to rush to use this? If you're in Fife and are a family of 4 going on holiday are you going to get to the nearest station (could be a few miles at least) board train with luggage for 4 (at what cost I'm unsure) then transfer at the link with said luggage & kids onto the tram for a ?20-?25 10 minute journey? Or are you going to drive/get a friend to drive you/get a taxi door to door?

Wont be viable or appealing for all journeys but manu people travel with hand luggage only making it easy to hop on and off public transport. Its another option and a welcome one, public transport in all forms needs to be improved.

 

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[All roads lead to Gorgie]

Passed the site of the Edinburgh gateway railway station today another year before its open but, big step in linking trains and trams. Access to and from gyle and airport to trains to fife , Dundee ,Aberdeen etc.

 

Sent from my ZTE Blade Q Mini using Tapatalk

Remember the scheme they had to divert the railway including a re-routed Glasgow line under the runway and have an airport station to serve the whole of Scotland. That for me was a great idea but would have made the trams pointless. I think it was deemed too expensive then, that makes you laugh now !

[Malinga the Swinga]

With the right management, budgeting and planning, the tram line may have been a success. Unfortunately, the council are unable to provide any of the three requirements, therefore I would not trust them with a blank piece of paper and a pencil, never mind allow them to spend millions more on a toy train that has provided no benefit to anyone, yet has almost driven businesses in Edinburgh to closure.

 

This council are A bunch of self serving idiots who should be run out of office at the first opportunity.

[Optimus Prime]

This toy train chat.............. 

[frankblack]

With the right management, budgeting and planning, the tram line may have been a success. Unfortunately, the council are unable to provide any of the three requirements, therefore I would not trust them with a blank piece of paper and a pencil, never mind allow them to spend millions more on a toy train that has provided no benefit to anyone, yet has almost driven businesses in Edinburgh to closure.

 

This council are A bunch of self serving idiots who should be run out of office at the first opportunity.

 

FTFY

 

Many businesses in Haymarket, Shandwick Place, and Leith Walk are gone because of the lack of footfall due to the cluster**** caused by tram works.

[Stuart Lyon]

Anyone know what the maximum number of vanity trams that can share the track at any one time is? Just wonder what would happen if the service was overwhelmed by developments along the route.

[FWJ]

Remember the scheme they had to divert the railway including a re-routed Glasgow line under the runway and have an airport station to serve the whole of Scotland. That for me was a great idea but would have made the trams pointless. I think it was deemed too expensive then, that makes you laugh now !

It was called EARL (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) and would have provided a direct link to Aberdeen, Dundee/Perth, Fife, Stirling and Glasgow to the airport. I've often wondered if one of the reasons it was cancelled would have been the effect it had on Glasgow Airport and the political implications of that.

[FWJ]

FTFY

 

Many businesses in Haymarket, Shandwick Place, and Leith Walk are gone because of the lack of footfall due to the cluster**** caused by tram works.

And nothing to do with the biggest and deepest recession in decades happening at the same time? There certainly seems to be plenty of economic activity in Shandwick Place now - and of course the massive new development at Haymarket / Morrison Street.

[FWJ]

Anyone know what the maximum number of vanity trams that can share the track at any one time is? Just wonder what would happen if the service was overwhelmed by developments along the route.

Maybe these developments could be directed to the Borders or Fife utilising the vanity Borders Railway or vanity Queensferry Crossing?

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

It was called EARL (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) and would have provided a direct link to Aberdeen, Dundee/Perth, Fife, Stirling and Glasgow to the airport. I've often wondered if one of the reasons it was cancelled would have been the effect it had on Glasgow Airport and the political implications of that.

They have always seemed a bit touchy through in the west about their airport especially at the time when Edinburgh was set to overtake it in passenger numbers so that may well be right. It would have meant no one coming from the north and west having to travel through a major urban area so for that alone it should have been given a green light.

[reaths17]

This toy train chat.............. 

but he's right, it hasn't brought any benefit to anyone/thing, which makes it pretty much toy

 

And nothing to do with the biggest and deepest recession in decades happening at the same time? There certainly seems to be plenty of economic activity in Shandwick Place now - and of course the massive new development at Haymarket / Morrison Street.

you mean none of the development woulda happened without "the tram to nowhere in particular" ?

Edited November 19, 2015 by reaths17

[FWJ]

but he's right, it hasn't brought any benefit to anyone/thing, which makes it pretty much toy you mean none of the development woulda happened without "the tram to nowhere in particular" ?

No, I mean the tram that connects the busiest airport in the country to the centre of the capital city. You know, the second biggest financial centre and tourist destination in the UK and fastest growing city in Scotland. That tram.

[Malinga the Swinga]

No, I mean the tram that connects the busiest airport in the country to the centre of the capital city. You know, the second biggest financial centre and tourist destination in the UK and fastest growing city in Scotland. That tram.

yes that tram, the one that serves virtually no-one, cost a ridiculous amount of money and takes longer than the perfectly good bus service we have.

[reaths17]

yes that tram, the one that serves virtually no-one, cost a ridiculous amount of money and takes longer than the perfectly good bus service we have.

hear, hear, my good chap, they don't seem to be getting it...what !

 

you like me and countless others seem to get it, that everything was actually slightly better without the tram and kinda tickety boo. now after GREEEEAAAAATTTTT expense we have this huge hinderance in the middle of our infrastructure, going nowhere, benefiting no one, that they want to reduce even more of the services they have already reduced, to add on too the debt that this already burdens the city with by adding another couple of miles to the toy tram going to nowhere/benefitting no one, in particular

[Optimus Prime]

BREAKING NEWS

 

Edinburgh Council vote yes to tram line extension to Newhaven.

[FWJ]

yes that tram, the one that serves virtually no-one, cost a ridiculous amount of money and takes longer than the perfectly good bus service we have.

What, no-one apart from the 5 million that used it in its first year? More than forecast. Maybe that's why I have to stand the mornings I use it.

And against the confident predictions of many it wasn't at the expense of the buses, their use went up too.

[FWJ]

Can I get this right... Edinburgh Airport, Haymarket and its station and Princes Street are "nowhere"?

[FWJ]

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/inverness/613671/highland-council-facing-massive-cuts-as-budget-deficit-trebles/

 

Must be all those trams in Kinlochbervie.

[Chaps]

Council agree in principle for the extension at the cost of 162m

 

http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/transport/councillors-agree-to-extend-edinburgh-trams-line-1-3952805

[Glottis]

Our council really do take the piss.

Cutting jobs left right and centre, slashing school budgets, roads crumbling but they'll fire more money into this vanity project.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Remember the scheme they had to divert the railway including a re-routed Glasgow line under the runway and have an airport station to serve the whole of Scotland. That for me was a great idea but would have made the trams pointless. I think it was deemed too expensive then, that makes you laugh now !

 

The real reason it never got built was the CEC would have got no revenue from such a project. The underground bit was really just scaremongering to sell against what was the only logical option.

[Seymour M Hersh]

This toy train chat.............. 

 

This tram network chat   

[williejamiesonlesftfoot]

Anyone else not been on a tram yet?

[The Real Maroonblood]

BREAKING NEWS

 

Edinburgh Council vote yes to tram line extension to Newhaven.

There will be few brown envelopes on the go.

[reaths17]

Can I get this right... Edinburgh Airport, Haymarket and its station and Princes Street are "nowhere"?

are any of these near the populated parts of edinburgh,, i get a bus that goes to the west end that covers haymarket station and princes st. if i'm going to the airport i ain't humphing luggage on a bus uptown to get on a tram thats slower than the 100 bus, i'm getting a taxi there without the humphing luggage. if it eventually gets down leith, i will be getting a bus there rather than getting one uptown to get a tram to get to leith. it hasn't replaced the the airport bus completely either, what was the point of it again?

 

just because its convenient for you and a few others doesn't make it an investment of worth and value. how many doctors/nurses do you get for 3/4 of a billion pounds, 750.000.000.00 pence

[John mcCartney]

i live in newhaven but thats not making me think vrything willl be rosy.its not all about the dough involved

the ****ing traffic in leith walk,elm row,picardy will have the shit kicked out of it

im up and down that road a lot with work ,its allready jamming up at peak times

a big ****ing vanity piece on it as well ? na



 

[Koolkeith]

are any of these near the populated parts of edinburgh,, i get a bus that goes to the west end that covers haymarket station and princes st. if i'm going to the airport i ain't humphing luggage on a bus uptown to get on a tram thats slower than the 100 bus, i'm getting a taxi there without the humphing luggage. if it eventually gets down leith, i will be getting a bus there rather than getting one uptown to get a tram to get to leith. it hasn't replaced the the airport bus completely either, what was the point of it again?

 

just because its convenient for you and a few others doesn't make it an investment of worth and value. how many doctors/nurses do you get for 3/4 of a billion pounds, 750.000.000.00 pence

I'd be interested to also know how many people travel on various bus routes and what one carries the most passengers? So we can compare this to the tram passenger numbers.

[Koolkeith]

The council only like to release stats about the tram that suit their agenda. 116 million passengers last year.,

[FWJ]

are any of these near the populated parts of edinburgh,, i get a bus that goes to the west end that covers haymarket station and princes st. if i'm going to the airport i ain't humphing luggage on a bus uptown to get on a tram thats slower than the 100 bus, i'm getting a taxi there without the humphing luggage. if it eventually gets down leith, i will be getting a bus there rather than getting one uptown to get a tram to get to leith. it hasn't replaced the the airport bus completely either, what was the point of it again?

 

just because its convenient for you and a few others doesn't make it an investment of worth and value. how many doctors/nurses do you get for 3/4 of a billion pounds, 750.000.000.00 pence

Populated parts of Edinburgh? Then surely going down Leith Walk is ideal - not only is it the most densely populated area of Edinburgh, it's actually the most densely populated part of Scotland.

No-one is forcing you to take a tram, if a bus is more convenient for you then use it - haven't there been timetable and equipment improvements lately (in spite of dire predictions)? But the tram is convenient for me and 5,000,000 others.

 

The doctors and nurses and teachers arguments can be done for many things. How many doctors and nurses could we get if we didn't build the new Forth Bridge, or electrify the railway to Glasgow - indeed didn't subsidise the trains by ?100s of millions a year. How many more primary teachers could we have if we introduced loans for tertiary education. Maybe we should shut down vanity libraries, theatres, museums and galleries. Where do you draw the line?

Edited November 19, 2015 by FWJ

[Dunks]

I use the tram fairly regularly. I never use buses.

 

Time to complete the network. And I include the ERI in that.

[3fingersreid]

Anyone else not been on a tram yet?

Not been on one , no intention of going on one and thereby justifying the gross mismanagement and scandalous over budget of this project overseen by the CEC

 

Let's see the outcome of the public enquiry before we go any further and there is NO chance of it stopping at ?162m

[reaths17]

Populated parts of Edinburgh? Then surely going down Leith Walk is ideal - not only is it the most densely populated area of Edinburgh, it's actually the most densely populated part of Scotland.

No-one is forcing you to take a tram, if a bus is more convenient for you then use it - haven't there been timetable and equipment improvements lately (in spite of dire predictions)? But the tram is convenient for me and 5,000,000 others.

 

The doctors and nurses and teachers arguments can be done for many things. How many doctors and nurses could we get if we didn't build the new Forth Bridge, or electrify the railway to Glasgow - indeed didn't subsidise the trains by ?100s of millions a year. How many more primary teachers could we have if we introduced loans for tertiary education. Maybe we should shut down vanity libraries, theatres, museums and galleries. Where do you draw the line?

leith is only one slice of the cake, so its screw everyone else.

 

you draw the line when an essential service is handicapped for the benefit of a none essential folie